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Dawnie
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My dh stumbled across this Catholic blog today and I was very disturbed by these two blog entries. Look at the posts from July 1, 2006 and June 29, 2006.
She seems to be of the opinion that we (as Catholics) should not make use of ANY Protestant materials and that they cannot be "catholicized" (is that a word?). If Charlotte Mason's ideas are truly "heretical" as this author claims, then I want nothing to do with CM. But her ideas seem to ring with truth to me. "Children are born persons..." Isn't that the same thing the Church says? Yes, the Catholic Church has the *fullness* of truth, but does that mean that anyone outside the Church has nothing valuable to contribute? Doesn't *all* truth come from the Holy Spirit?
I've read very little of Charlotte Mason's own writings. Much of what I know about CM comes from Elizabeth's book, For the Children's Sake, and A Charlotte Mason Companion. The author seems to be accusing compainies like Emmanuel Books, which carry CM books, to be either totally ignorant or possibly supportive of dissent.
Anyway, I am thouroughly confused and even scared after reading these blog posts and wanted to hear your thoughts, especially those of you who are more familiar w/ CM's own writings than I am.
Dawn
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Elizabeth
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Dear Dawn,
Don't panic! I'm going to move this to the Real Learning board. Then, I ask you to read through
this thread and this one
and then we'll chat till you feel at ease.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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folklaur
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Ummm, this has just been my personal experience, but I tend to stay away from "Keeping It Catholic". I mean no offense to anyone here if they are associated with KiC. However, I have never found them to be helpful. I have found them to be very opinionated, and often quite hurtful, and negative.
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ladybugs
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First of all, Dawn, I am sorry that this kind of thinking has brought you down and it sounds as if it struck a blow to your joy. While I myself used to have so many fears about home education - I used to work in the school system - I now realize that GOD IS BIGGER than everything.
If He calls your family to A, He will see you through. If He calls your family to B, He will see you through. It is no one else's business how you choose to educate your children. Just yours, your dh's and God's.
I am taking a quote from another thread that Kathryn made and bringing the discussion here, if that's okay.
Kathryn UK wrote:
| The KIC website is generally very against any attempt to "Catholicise" non-Catholic materials or methods. |
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I think of the saints who went into other cultures and used things familiar to the culture to evangelize the people. St. Patrick immediately comes to mind. St. Francis Xavier, St. Isaac Jocques. Where would we be today if not for these great men and women of the past!!!!! They chose things and methods that were not evil yet were perhaps not labeled Catholic. (Which begs the question, "What's with the labels?" but that's another thread) Yet, would these things have been labeled anti-Catholic according to KIC?
Did not Jesus Himself throw the mainstream culture on its ear?
Goodness! The narrow rigidity of the KIC mindset is difficult to deal with, imo. It is also negative. What a waste of energy despite the good intentions!
There is also the biblical quote, "there are many gifts but the same Spirit." How does the KIC mentality apply here? On the same note, St. Philip Neri used to say, "I don't care what you do, so long as you do not sin!" What a great model!
I'm sorry if you are troubled by them. There is SO MUCH JOY in home educating our children! Let us keep those stuck in that mindset in our prayers. I'm sure they mean well.
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Maria P
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Willa
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Wow, the blog doesn't approve the Great Books, either.
"And then there is the “Great Books” philosophy, which is also being touted in the same catalog. (It galls within the realm of what people today think is "classical education.") As I humorously ask my audiences, “Who decided what’s so great about the Great Books, anyway?” "
That's going farther than most Catholics would, considering that the Church has recommended the (careful and balanced) use of Great Books practically since Day One. See St Basils' Address to Young Men which expresses a point of view which is echoed in Divini Illius Magistri.
I'm not a fan of KIC, either. I do not think the founder speaks for the mind of the Church on these subjects.
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mom3aut1not
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Dawn,
The blogger you cite is not the Pope; she is only giving her opinion (or her interpretation of papl teaching IIRC), and your opinion (or interpretation) or mine or any of the people who frquent have opinions (or interpretations) that are as valid -- imo more so -- than hers. She thinks that only explicitly Catholic material is acceptable; that is *her* opinion. I disagree.
In a sense, I have to. I have disabled kids who simply would not learn if I restricted myself to the materials of which she approves. This was even more true when I began hsing many years ago. Was I to choose between Catholic materials that my children could not learn from or judiciously edited materials that they could learn from? Obviously, I do not use seriously flawed materials, but a little editing in the younger years followed by using anything I find of dubious veracity as a occasion for discussion has worked well.
It is true that one must be discerning, and the need for discernment will vary from person to person, yet I cannot see why using a CM *approach* would be unacceptable. Even if Charlotte Mason's theology or thinking on some subjects is defective, the *method* is not as it is based on her experience as a teacher. Would I trust Charlotte Mason on religion? No. Would I listen with respect to the idea of using studied dictation instead of a spelling program? Of course.
(IIRC this blogger disapproves of Maria Montessori as well -- and Maria Montessori was a devout Catholic.<g> )
There is also another question. What is it that makes the treatment of a particular subject Catholic? What makes a method Catholic? I hold that a math program that enables a student to see the beauty, the elegance, the power of mathematics and to see in mathematics the hand of God --now that is a Catholic math program whether or not it is explicitly Catholic. That holds for many other subjects and for educational methods as well. I do see a need for explicitly Catholic material in history, literature study, and so on, but even non-Catholic materials can be used here imo if used with discretion.
I commend you for your concern -- after all, if you didn't treasure the Faith, you wouldn't be worried -- but I feel that if you pray, rely on people whom you can trust for good advice, and use discernment even with good advice, you are unlikely to go too far wrong.
Be not afraid!
In Christ,
Deborah
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Dawnie
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Elizabeth,
Oh, I'm so glad this has been discussed already! Thank you for the links. I've already started reading over them.
I tend to get freaked out easily, especially when it comes to matters of faith and morals. I've only been Catholic for about 6 years and often feel like I've only scratched the surface, kwim? So glad I have a group of wise women to give direction when needed!
And Laura, thank you for the heads up on KiC. I'll be directing my dh to the links Elizabeth posted, as well.
Thank you from a baby Catholic,
Dawn
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Dawnie
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mom3aut1not wrote:
There is also another question. What is it that makes the treatment of a particular subject Catholic? What makes a method Catholic? I hold that a math program that enables a student to see the beauty, the elegance, the power of mathematics and to see in mathematics the hand of God --now that is a Catholic math program whether or not it is explicitly Catholic.
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Yes, this is my sense, too. That the true, the good, and the beautiful will lead to Him who is Truth, Goodness, and Beauty.
mom3aut1not wrote:
| I commend you for your concern -- after all, if you didn't treasure the Faith, you wouldn't be worried -- but I feel that if you pray, rely on people whom you can trust for good advice, and use discernment even with good advice, you are unlikely to go too far wrong. |
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Yes...I tend to make things more complicated than they are at times...especially discernment issues.
Yes, thank you for reminding me!
Dawn
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Angie Mc
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Hi Dawnie,
I so enjoy your enthusiasm and joy in learning. Thanks for sharing it with us and keep up the great work!
Here's a CCM thread that you may also find informative.
Love,
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MacBeth
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Goodness. It's just a method of education. It's not "Catholic" or "Protestant" or "Hindu" or whatever. It's a method. If it works for your kids, fine. If it doesn't, look elsewhere.
If the author could show that droves of CM-educated Catholic kids are becoming Protestant, atheist, or whatever, or if she could show that CM-educated kids don't understand the teachings of the church, she might get my attention. But neither is happening. Instead, great Catholic kids who love learning and love the faith are excelling without textbooks.
This becomes very tiresome after a few years of the same old tirade. Perhaps the author tried CM (way back when, she published an article praising the method), and discovered that she and her kids did not fit the CM method. Hey...it happens. Perhaps the people with whom she associates are losing money at conferences when CM is featured and discussed as a method. In any case, I suspect there is more going on here than just a deep belief that CM is "anti-Catholic."
Oh, and Willa is absolutely right. The "Great Books" method of education (not too far from CM as I see it) is the most authentically Catholic education of all--but it does not sell text books for the blogger's associates.
Sorry to sounds blunt and harsh, but after so may years of answering the same old tired arguments against the CM method, I am beginning to believe that the whole thing is mercenary, and not a matter of faith at all.
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Dawnie
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MacBeth wrote:
| This becomes very tiresome after a few years of the same old tirade...Sorry to sounds blunt and harsh, but after so may years of answering the same old tired arguments against the CM method, I am beginning to believe that the whole thing is mercenary, and not a matter of faith at all. |
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I had no idea before seeing that website that there was even any controversy about Catholics using CM. Is this the kind of thing that Elizabeth was referring to in her book, when she quoted Willa as saying "Having converted and found the fullness of the faith, I do hate to see Catholics acting like the dwarves in Narnia, huddling next to the door and thinking they are still in a dark and stuffy stable." I was puzzled when I first read that, but it makes a lot of sense now.
I also liked this quote from Willa: "Catholics take and sanctify or baptize the good in things, and discard what is not good or wholesome."
Gee, I should have just re-read Real Learning, then I wouldn't have needed to start this thread! 
Dawn
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MacBeth
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Oh, Dawnie, I did not mean that I am tired of questions from people looking to answer the blogger's points!  I meant I was tired of the blogger repeating the same old arguments in new forums. I just wanted to make sure you did not think I was cranky about your question. 
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Dawnie
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MacBeth wrote:
| Oh, Dawnie, I did not mean that I am tired of questions from people looking to answer the blogger's points! I meant I was tired of the blogger repeating the same old arguments in new forums. I just wanted to make sure you did not think I was cranky about your question. |
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Yeah, I picked up that you were tired of the anti-CM stuff...
I didn't think you were cranky about my question. I can see how you might have thought that, though. Sorry I wasn't more clear!
Dawn
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lapazfarm
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MacBeth,you express my sentiments exactly. CM is a method, for Pete's sake. This lady is off her rocker, IMHO and shouldn't be taken seriously. I doubt her intentions, as well. I guess she thinks SHE should be the one to decide what the Great Books are?
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Elizabeth
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I went to bed last night thinking that MB's "Great Books" comment might be the greatest thing she's ever written. Now, we all have no doubt that she is not credible at all. What a ridiculous, arrogant thing to say!
And yes, Willa's Narnia quote was from just such a discussion, I do believe. Over the years MB and her cohorts have bashed so many good people and institutions (NACHE, Mary Hasson, the Hahns, Opus Dei, EWTN...) that the poor, huddled dwarves barely "blip" on our RADAR screens any more. We just read whatever new tirade they have (because someone always asks--as well they should if they've never come across them before) and then methodically answer. It's easier every time, partly because we are all a lot further along this journey than we were seven years ago (that quote is nearly eight years old) and the fruits of this education are obvious to us. She absolutely doesn't ruffle our feathers at all anymore. You'll have peace Dawn. I promise.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Sarah
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I came across this KIC site several years ago when I was looking into CM and I got nervous, too. I didn't have this forum at the time, so I decided that I'd keep the best of CM without saying I was a CM follower, since I felt kind of insecure.
I don't have that problem now that I'm more confident.
So, Dawn you're not alone.
As I posted earlier this week in another thread. People need to be very careful about fringy, scrupulous nonsense. I mentioned that this type of thinking absolutely ruined on of my friends--and I mean ruined--like her whole life, all because she was prone to believing stuff like that. She was so afraid to do something contrary to the faith, that it destroyed her whole family.
There is some very sound advice above on this forum.
If it makes you feel better, isolate what you like from CM without calling it CM--take the best of her, as many people have done. Call it Real Learning since that is SO Catholic!
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momwise
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Elizabeth wrote:
| MB's "Great Books" comment might be the greatest thing she's ever written. Now, we all have no doubt that she is not credible at all |
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Absolutely correct. This site is not credible and I would put it up there with false apparitions and things; something to be totally ignored unless called upon to denounce it. Clicking around further on this blog I found a pronouncement that God will install a Euorpean monarch to convert the world and the comment by an agreeable poster was absolutely kooky and racist. Avoid it like any other non-Catholic craziness.
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Angie Mc
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Elizabeth wrote:
I went to bed last night thinking that MB's "Great Books" comment might be the greatest thing she's ever written. Now, we all have no doubt that she is not credible at all. What a ridiculous, arrogant thing to say!
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Her credibility continues to decline. Fear-based and scrupulous living is painful and dark. Misleading people has a huge burden of responsibility. This just isn't Christ-like no matter how I cut it. Let's continue to pray for her, as I hope she is praying for us.
Elizabeth wrote:
| It's easier every time, partly because we are all a lot further along this journey than we were seven years ago (that quote is nearly eight years old) and the fruits of this education are obvious to us. She absolutely doesn't ruffle our feathers at all anymore. You'll have peace Dawn. I promise. |
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I've enjoyed the ride  It is fun growing up together.
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saintanneshs
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Sarah wrote:
I came across this KIC site several years ago when I was looking into CM and I got nervous, too. I didn't have this forum at the time, so I decided that I'd keep the best of CM without saying I was a CM follower, since I felt kind of insecure.
I don't have that problem now that I'm more confident.
So, Dawn you're not alone. |
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Well, put Sarah. I'm right there with you, so that makes 3 of us, Dawn!
I just thought that I might add that in my exp. I became so engrossed in the postings about the NACHE/KIC (specifically MB) "battle" that I was afraid I'd do something wrong (meaning un-Catholic) in my homeschooling choices. I even bought one of MB's books. The problem was, as my dh pointed out when we went through it together, that according to MB, EVERYTHING was wrong except for traditional "school at home" which doesn't fit for all Catholics (as the wise and experienced ones here have already said). Plus, the tone of her writings was very offensive to my husband, a recent convert. So...we pitched the book, bought Real Learning and A CM Companion and haven't looked back.
As a side note, a few years later I discovered that one of the priests on the NACHE board (advisory board maybe?) who knew all about the incident b/w KIC and NACHE, happened to be our own parish priest. So I asked him about the validity of KIC and he basically said (I'm taking great liberty to summarize here) that we have to be careful of what's out there and use our discernment, even with things that are labeled "Catholic." Hmmmm...
The Holy Spirit guided me away from KIC and sounds like I'm not the only one.
Hope that helps.
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I went to bed last night thinking that MB's "Great Books" comment might be the greatest thing she's ever written. Now, we all have no doubt that she is not credible at all. What a ridiculous, arrogant thing to say! |
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Some 5 years ago I was at a conference where one of the speakers (an associate of the aforementioned Ms. B) said that "Classical education really wasn't Catholic and why did we need to know about the Greeks and Romans anyway?" I was astounded but the crowd was approving and it frankly blew me away. Needeless to say my CM talk wasn't particularly well received. 
Quote:
| Over the years MB and her cohorts have bashed so many good people and institutions (NACHE, Mary Hasson, the Hahns, Opus Dei, EWTN...) that the poor, huddled dwarves barely "blip" on our RADAR screens any more. We just read whatever new tirade they have (because someone always asks--as well they should if they've never come across them before) and then methodically answer. |
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And the tirades are becoming increasingly nasty. I have been asked twice now about a particularly disturbing (and completely unfounded) comment that was made about Charlotte Mason (the woman mind you not even her method!) by Ms. B at the IHM conference last year. I won't repeat it here because it's calumny but it was indeed outrageous and nasty. 
As for me, I DO have plans to have my own Bishop (who is well versed in educational pedagogy) look over and give his opinion on the Mater Amabilis curriculum. But the program needs to be finished first and that's a ways off at this point.
But Dawn, the women here have given you good advice and like MacBeth has said, it's just a method and really it's OK to use it!
God bless!
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Michele Quigley
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Is Charlotte Mason anti-Catholic?
