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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: June 23 2006 at 8:02pm | IP Logged
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Cay mentioned in another thread the common perception that CHC is too gentle, too easy. I hear this all the time on other hsing boards.
Really?
Starting in 2nd grade and through 4th grade, science and/or history programs include liberal use of looking up information in encyclopedias and the 4th grade history program includes memorization work and a weekly descriptive paragraph for the first nine weeks on their home state (along with the research in order to write it).
The 5th grade text they use for history, Sea to Shining Sea, is rated by the Catholic Textbook project as appropriate for 5th-8th grades.
The 6th grade text is rated for 6th-9th grade.
The history texts for 7th and 8th grade are used by Seton in high school and both years include extensive writing assignments...essentially creating a history book in the student's own words.
Language of God B (3rd grade) includes a lot of work with state of being verbs, possessives, labeling predicates, and helping verbs. The 4th grade level includes much more difficult grammar concepts.
The Life Science curriculum used in the 7th and 8th grades by CHC is used by MODG as one option for high school biology.
I regularly hear on other hs boards that moms are using Behold and See, CHC's 3rd grade science text, with children up through at least 5th grade.
CHC uses a speller after week 11 in the first grade.
I'm not trying to defend CHC's curriculum as academic. What I am wondering is if my own ideas about what's appropriate for each grade level are "off" from the general hsing community.
I am inclined to use CHC's language workbooks a year below grade level. I would use From Sea to Shining Sea and All Ye Lands with 7th and 8th graders and I wouldn't use the Seton history texts before 9th grade. I wouldn't use a speller before 3rd or 4th grade, or at least before the child was reading fluently and no longer struggling with decoding. I wouldn't think twice about using Behold and See with a 4th grader and I might purposefully NOT use it with a 3rd grader.
Am I unusual? Am I dumbing down education? Or is it mostly accelerated homeschoolers that are calling CHC too "easy"?
What do y'all think? Is it me?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Elizabeth
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It's not you. I think that maybe it's not that it's easier (though I can't compare it to any other boxed curriculum because I've never used another). I think that it's simpler. There isn't as MUCH. I do find that I can finish whatever CHC has planned and have plenty of time for other things (like nature study and the carafts Alice suggests, books form my Sonlight shelves and FIARish rabbit trails). And my children, with few exceptions, don't really complain about the work. It isn't agonizing. Perhaps that's why we hear that it's "gentler." OTOH, I frequently hear kids say they hate Seton, particularly when I read the message boards of teenaged kids (boredonline.com). I've been playing with curriculum orders all evening and my children are pretty adamant that I don't cross out the CHC texts for other texts.
I agree with your assessment of the history and I found the science assessment interesting. Behold and See is easily middle school material in many places.
One thing about that first grade speller: it's keyed to the readers and is what someone else might call a phonics book. I have a very slow reader working through CHC reading and that speller and the speller isn't difficult for him at all.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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katilac
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Maybe it depends on the level used. I do find the lower levels, k-3, to be pretty light. I've never used their full program, but I looked into pretty thoroughly, and currently I have the 3rd grade lesson plans and Behold and See.
Grammar seems pretty standard. The reading course does not seem challenging at all.
I don't find MCP math thorough or challenging enough.
I wouldn't use Behold and See above grade level; it has very basic information such as what do plants need to live and animals live in all kinds of places called habitats.Perhaps with a lot of supplementing, you could use it as an outline for a science course in higher grades.
So, yes, I do think CHC is too light for my particular third grader. If a child doesn't have a strong interest in academics, I think a light program is okay in the lower grades. It can also work well if the parent wants an outline for the basics, so they can supplement and follow rabbit trails. Again, the curriculum may differ in the upper grades.
I really like some of the CHC extras and enrichment ideas. Even though I don't use any of their core curriculum, I bought the lesson plans because the Tour a Country course, the book reports, and the rosary project looked interesting. I think we will use them all, and some enrighcment ideas as well.
kat
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lapazfarm
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From what I've seen of the materials for Seton and CHC (and it's not alot, but just some) the actual level of difficulty of materials between them doesn't seem that greatly different. What does seem to be the main complaint with Seton is the volume and pace of the work. With Seton I've heard of many families that get overwhelmed with having to do so MUCH work. I've not heard the same complaint from families that use CHC. In fact, I have heard complaints of not enough repetition in some areas (grammar, I think?). This may explain the feeling of "lightness" and may be why those who use CHC feel more free to supplement with rabbit trails, etc while those who use Seton do not.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Bookswithtea
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I appreciate your thoughts. I'm guessing in some ways I really do fall on the "light" side when it comes to academic workload.  I guess I'm going to have to think about that some more. I've never had my children tested or anything like that. I've never had the impression they were behind. They are avid readers and have passions and seem to know how to pursue them without me holding their hands. They do have friends with much tougher workloads, though.
Sometimes I wonder... What is a legitimate standard for a certain grade level? I know there are state or national standards, but how do we know if they are developmentally appropriate, advanced, or dumbed down? There are hs books aplenty all with different ideas about what kids can or should do (My bookshelves are loaded with them). The whole thing confuses me.
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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katilac
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Yes, it can be very hard to decide what to cover each school year. Sometimes it can be helpful to look at your long-term goals and then work backwards.
For example, my kids would perform well below average on a 'social studies' standardized test, because we don't have the early emphasis on American history called for by most scopes and sequences. I'm fine with this, because my long-term goal for the early years is an overview of chronological history. I know that the gaps will be filled in by the end of fourth grade.
Or, look even further ahead. If you want the student to write convincing theses in high school, you need to spend time in the middle years on research and composition skills. The student won't be able to advance in composition skills unless he can write a strong paragraph, so the goal for the early years might be mastering paragraph structure.
Now, break that down further. The goal is to master paragraph structure by the end of fourth grade. What are the prerequisites for that? Mastering sentence structure, of course. Hand in hand with both of those is a good grasp of grammar and basic style.
Now I know what I need my student to cover in the first four years, based on my goals for high school. All that's left to decide is *how* to cover it, and that will depend a great deal on student and teacher.
The other great thing about planning 'backwards' is that you can see how crucial it is to *not* move ahead until you have a strong base. What is the sense of covering paragraphs in grade 4 if the child can't write a sensible sentence? Much better, imo, than relying on a set list (although those are extremely helpful in setting end goals and working backwards from them).
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Bookswithtea
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Actually, this is what I've done. I've always worked backwards! In thinking more about it, I don't think my high school expectations are that much different from others (well...we are more on the college prep track than the honors track) but I tend to keep the load fairly light in the early years.
With my first, I did all kinds of things in the 3rd-ish grade that he didn't even remember by the time we got to 5th grade. When we covered them again in the 5th-6th grade, he understood it better and retained it. So I came to the conclusion that that material could wait until later to cover. Now I am doubting that a bit, I guess...
Do you think its becoming more common for homeschoolers to use accelerated education?
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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marihalojen
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I think so, Books. Yesterday we met a new family thinking of homeschooling, wanting info for their 10 year old son who has finished two physics books this summer since school closed. It's got to be a love of the child's but there was definitely pressure from the mama too. Lots of talk of skipping grades etc...
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The Mari Hal-O-Jen
SSR = Sailing, Snorkling, Reading
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time4tea
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Sorry to be getting in on this discussion so late - Yes, Books, I would agree that many more homeschoolers definitely ARE using accelerated approaches to schooling, including skipping grades. A lot if it gets back, I think to fear - fear that you may not be doing exactly what the local school is doing, exactly the way they are doing it. Honestly, though, we had our kids in ps for awhile before h'schooling, and I found a lot of the information disseminated out there about the "goals" and "achievements" of the public schools to be just that a lot of talk. We never experienced it, and we live in one of the best school disctricts in our state. Another concern I think parents have is how others (grandparents, friends, etc.) perceive homeschooling in general and their particular homeschool specifically (I know I get questions about our homeschool from my parents and in-laws all the time. They will never really believe that our dc are actually learning and being taught competently by dh and I - it just isn't in their point of reference anywhere that such a thing could occur outside of the local schools).
I just met with a friend yesterday who just began h'schooling her 7 year old dd, and she is so nervous about whether or not they are doing enough. In all actuality, they have already completed more in a couple of months than probably should have been attempted in two full quarters, but a lot of it is done out of fear. In a round about way, I think this gets back to CHC/Seton, etc. Seton fills every hour of the school day (and then some) with work, helping to ease the concern that not enough is being accomplished, whereas CHC allows the parent and child leeway to be somewhat more self-directed by not filling in the traditional school day with lots of busy work, and that makes some people nervous. Maybe it's because I just finished reading a book by the Moore's, but I have to ask in all honesty - just because a certain child can be given 2 Physics texts at age 10, should he be given the two texts? Are we going to create a generation of burned out scholars? Yes, there are gifted children in the homeschooling community, but they are, after all, still children. How much is too much? IS this what the dc really needs and wants at this point in his life and education - or is it we ourselves who want it? This is a question I have to ask myself often, and pray about.
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cathhomeschool
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Great point, Tea! I have found myself at times fighting the idea that I need to keep the kids busier. So many times they have come to me and asked if they can play or do some-non-schoolish-thing. And so many times my first thought (which I don't give in to) has been, "But it's so EARLY! How can we possibly be done with 'school' for the day already? What am I not covering?!" It was easy to accept the idea that formal school can be done in an hour or so when they were 7 and 8. And I think I have a good grasp of what should be covered in high school, but the middle years... Now that my boys are 11 and 12, I struggle with knowing how much is enough? What are they supposed to learn in middle school anyway? All I remember covering was spelling in 6th grad and Texas History and math in junior high. Someone somewhere (maybe in the Teen board?) said that middle school was for filling in the "gaps," and I guess that's the approach I'm trying to take now. I know this was kinda OT, but your comments got me thinking! 
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SuzC
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I have used both CHC and Seton in our relatively short hsing journey and given my comdey of errors I'm not sure I have much to offer. But...it was on my mind last night and thought I'd share our experience.
Clearly the difference in philosophies has been well expressed above, but in my mind workbooks are workbooks and I'm trying to "see" the differences...before I make more mistakes in my ordering.
For example -
CHC Spelling C - ave 4th grade/adv.5th - Day one review the words and 7 fill-in-the-blank PLUS a "key scripture" verse for memorization (love this.)Day 2 fill-in-the-missing-letters, 5 rhyming words and 5 synonyms. These activities alternate with ABC order, antonyms and others. Day 3 is a pretest (not in the book). Day 4 is a test if needed.
Seton Spelling 3 - Like all the Seton books, the illustrations are BEAUTIFUL images of fine art. Day 1 write the new words under the heading of their rule or pattern. Day 2 is 16 fill-in-the-blank sentences. Day 3 is ABC order for all 16. Day 4 is pretest. Day 5 is a test if needed. It could definitely be considered busy work (ABC order overkill in dd's opinion), but the choice of words is also a different level than CHC
Week 30:
seton - mission, solution, equation, caution, machine
CHC - quiz, clock, six, clock
Now I know this may not be a fair comparison and had we stayed with CHC for 3rd, I would feel fine continuing with CHC 4th grade book. I do believe that CHC does an even better job with their book, by introducing the same skills - 5 words for ABC order instead of Seton's 16 words!
All this could be said for my experience with Seton English vs. Language of God, but I'll spare you all that. 
Again, I don't know if this really helps anyone. It is helping lift MY fog a bit. Anyone else have trouble getting all this straight with the noise of little people...or Maya & Miguel...in the not-distant-enough background! I do not mean any of this as a criticism and I'm sure I could do better with my word choice. I am only trying to compare & contrast.
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Suz in TX
dd~12, dd~9, ds~8, ds~6, ds~4, ds~1
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time4tea
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We have also used Seton at different times in our h'sing journey, and yes, I agree with you that the words Seton uses in their spellers are of a different nature than the ones chosen by CHC. I think my basic concern is - how much of this is too much for a young child to really learn, and by that I mean absorb and be able to consistently show mastery in? Over time, I have found that consistency and mastery have become more and more my goal in h'schooling, by neccesity more than be explicit design. I'll bet many dc can be made to complete the Seton spellers, but do they really learn from them - by this I mean, does the information "stick", or does it just fall off the plate once the test is over in order to make more room for yet more information? And consider this: Seton (and similar programs) expects the same level of intensity to be applied by the dc to his/her other school subjects as well. When does it become cramming instead of learning? I have found that for us, we cannot keep up that level of intensity with the bookwork beyond one quarter without burn-out peeking at us from around the corner.
I think one of the nicer things about materials like CHC or CM is that they are more easily tailored to individual dc and parent-teachers. You can freely add on as you want or need to, meaning you build the house from the ground up, as opposed to deconstructing it from the top level on down. Here is what I mean by this: one of the biggest concerns most families who have or do use programs like Seton have is that they always feel like they are behind, because there are so many assignments in the lesson plans. While all of the assignments are not required to be completed in order to get a Seton grade, my experience has been that because they are in the lesson plans, many families feel compelled to complete them, and experience a lot of stress (and some level of dissatisfaction with h'schooling) when the assignments are left undone. In other words, they need to begin thinking about "what can I leave out without jeopardzing my dc's education at this grade level?", which is like building a house that you can't really afford and then trying to decide post-construction what can stay and what has to go - deconstructing a house from the top level on down.
Let me just clarify again, I don't want to sound like I am picking on Seton specifically, I think my comments can really be applied to any similar program.
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~Tea
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Christine
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Remember, Seton does not require a parent to do everything in the lesson plans and encourages parents to fit the plan to the child, not vice versa. Thus, if a child understands ABC order, there is no need to do it. If you want the child to continue practicing ABC order or review ABC order, you can simply have him put the first five words (or any of the five words) in ABC order.
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Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
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time4tea
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Yes, this is true, but my comment still stands from the post above that "While all of the assignments are not required to be completed in order to get a Seton grade, my experience has been that because they are in the lesson plans, many families feel compelled to complete them, and experience a lot of stress (and some level of dissatisfaction with h'schooling) when the assignments are left undone." (Sorry, I'm not much good at the quote thing).
Again, I am not trying to pick on Seton - I think that they are the most commonly mentioned "example" because they are the biggest Catholic pre-packed provider, and many families have had some exposure to them. These comments could easily be applied to Calvert School, (which we also tried at one point), Abeka, and other similar providers of pre-packaged curricula.
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~Tea
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SuzC
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Tea ~ I love your analogy of the house building!
I should have clarified that I have only used lesson plans from CHC, but individual books from both Seton and CHC. My goal is to compare/contrast the workbooks in hopes of minimizing the innevitable tweaking we do to talior any given book to our child.
Like others have said before, if you tweak something beyond recognition, is it really the book for you?
What I decided (just yesterday...argh) worked best for dd after completing Seton 3 Spelling was to move to CHC D (advanced 4th/ave. 5th). Although I struggle with being wasteful (just ask dh ), if I know we're only going to do half a page it would probably be better to find a different book. But maybe even more than that, I guess there's something deep within that struggles against incomplete pages...what if that 16th sentence is the key to it all?? 
I do feel like I've come a long way (in LARGE part to everyone here) from my classroom teacher days and trying to "school at home", but clearly I've got a loooong way to go! Tomorrow is another day!
Blessings
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Suz in TX
dd~12, dd~9, ds~8, ds~6, ds~4, ds~1
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time4tea
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"Like others have said before, if you tweak something beyond recognition, is it really the book for you?"
"....if I know we're only going to do half a page it would probably be better to find a different book."
"But maybe even more than that, I guess there's something deep within that struggles against incomplete pages...what if that 16th sentence is the key to it all??"
Yes, exactly!
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~Tea
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Bookswithtea
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Well, I find this all very interesting. Thank you for reviving this thread!
Tea, I could have written your post. This point is *exactly* what I almost always come back to...should children be made to do it just because they are able to do it??? For the younger children, I almost always say, "no." I think its more important to be climbing trees.
But now that I have a 13 yr old, I am wondering, "OK, so when should they start really stretching?" I have this innate feeling that at some point, it is more important to push my child, academically. I haven't yet figured out if its the old schooly me or if its the Holy Spirit within me?
Christine, are you a Seton user? I spent a lot of time looking over the 7th grade LP's at my friend's house and it occurred to me that the way its structured, a whole lot of the busy work could easily be cut, making it a doable program, if the child responds to that kind of learning. For instance, couldn't one just complete 2 lessons and the test per quarter in Reading Comprehension and then just be "done" with that subject for the quarter, if the child doesn't need much practice in this topic? Is that "cheating" by Seton's standards (or anyone's standards, for that matter)? I don't entirely understand what Seton means when they say they are flexible. Do they invite you to use your best judgment? What if I wanted to add in copywork/dictation and accomplished this by cutting the Reading Comprehension? I know they don't want to see the other work, but do they care if I do that?
I don't have "have to complete it all" fever anymore. I butcher and mix and match programs all the time. When I'm done with them, they don't resemble any of the programs I used/consulted with, but they fit our family's lifestyle and my child. I do buy workbooks and use less than half of them because its expedient for me to have the pages that I want.
One easy way to get around that "have to do it all" feeling is to tear out the pages one wants and put them into notebooks with other, more CM ish stuff. At the end of the year, the result still is clearly a year's worth of work, even though half the workbook is still blank on another shelf. 
I still haven't ruled out Seton for high school. A lot will depend on how much flexibility I have. I really would like ds to have more outside input on his work. We have a local coop that uses a lot of the books for math/science that Seton will accept (I already asked them about that), but I'd love more outside help with grading for language arts and history. I don't use my coop's history programs because they are decidedly protestant.
My two biggest concerns with Seton's high school are their intensive grammar (which seems unnecessary to me) and their Literature programs seem like they are missing a lot of good authors.
I am very happy with the stuff I use/mix and match from CHC for the younger years. And for us, we decided that CHC's spellers were adequate, even though they aren't as difficult as Seton's.
Its jr. high and high school looming ahead that is keeping me up at night. 
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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hylabrook1
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Books -
Thinking about the question of pushing a child academically, I think you will probably know when that point comes with each child. If a child seems to get done TOO quickly, or seems bored with what you asked him to do, or starts saying "this book is really stupid", you have an indication that something more challenging is a better idea. Also, the push can come slowly and be worked up to. One of my dc likes to claim to need help with math, for instance, but if I am "not available for 30 minutes" (maybe by design?), he goes ahead and, wouldn't you just know it, READS the lesson and when I check in after 30 minutes is too busy with the assignment to be interrupted by me. Or you can start giving tougher/more advanced assignments in history reading while still being a bit more hands on with math or Spanish or something. Depending on the strengths and weaknesses of a particular child, these pushes can come at different ages and in different subjects with different children. Oh, the beauty of homeschooling!
Just something to think about.
Peace,
Nancy
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Christine
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I have used Seton for my 4th Grader since Kindergarten and will be trying it with my 7-year-old this year. I also tutored for high school Seton users (they were involved in a lot of outside activities). I have seen counselors and Dr. Clark recommend doing assignments out loud, doing the odd/even problems, skipping assignments that your children already know, etc. They include more than necessary because some children need different things. When I was getting my teaching credential, we were always told to plan more than is necessary because children will surprise us. My teaching credential program and mentor teacher embraced much of what was written in Elizabeth's book and reading it serves as a refresher course for me.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| Do they invite you to use your best judgment? |
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Yes, they do because you know your child better than anyone else.
Quote:
| What if I wanted to add in copywork/dictation and accomplished this by cutting the Reading Comprehension? I know they don't want to see the other work, but do they care if I do that? |
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No, however, if Reading Comprehension needs something sent in for a grade, they will want you to send it in for transcript purposes (high school level). Skipping what would be busy work for your child is definitely not cheating.
People often do a double take when they hear that we are studying butterflies, Latin, Sign Language, etc. I have heard on more than one occasion, "But that is not part of Seton's program." I guess I see Seton as a tool to help me educate my children while pulling in other things that I want them to learn or do. I don't see myself as schooling in a box and so far we have had a large part of our day free for other activities. I don't see a pre-packaged curriculum as boxing me in, but more as helping me out and giving me time to spend playing outside with my children.
Does Seton require all the literature that I would? No. However, that doesn't mean that my children cannot read things that are not included as part of Seton's curriculum (side note, if you think something should be included or substituted let them know your reasoning ~ they might change it). We have bookcases in almost every room in our house and my oldest two are constantly taking books from the shelves and reading them (my husband has suggested that a good punishment would be not to let them read for a day ). While they are reading a book or when they are finished, they share it with family members, recommend it as a read-aloud, and/or write about it. Reading is a huge part of our life. I was the ultimate bookworm as a child and my children seem to have inherited this quality.
Seton is constantly reevaluating their program. For example, this past year when I ordered their Kindergarten Phonics workbook for my son, I was surprised to see that Seton recommended doing letter sound dictation (providing worksheets for this purpose) and making an alphabet book. They do listen to parents and implement changes or additions accordingly.
All this being said, I know that as Tea said, "some families feel compelled to complete" the lessons in their entirety. Thus, I recognize that if a person cannot think outside of the box, then Seton may not be for them because they won't be able to adjust it to the child's needs. Also if they don't feel they need to be accountable to someone else, then Seton or any other pre-packaged curriculum may not be for them. Other options, may be to enroll in one or two courses at the high school level, pull what you like from Seton's or another curriculum and teach it yourself, mix/match ideas from various publishers and program providers, or find a tutor who can teach a particular subject to your liking (using materials that you, possibly your child, and the tutor have agreed upon), do just what you are doing.
Does Seton's cost seem prohibitive? Financially, yes, but when I have compared it to other Catholic homeschool publishers (and taken into account what is included), it seems very reasonable. I also look at the financial sacrifices that my parents made when we first moved to the U.S. to send us to Catholic schools and although we are homeschooling I feel that making a similar sacrifice for my children is very worthwhile.
I might be singing a different tune when we reach the high school level, but at this time I really like Seton because it allows me to spend plenty of time with my children, working with them, playing with them, encouraging participation in activities. I am also very thankful for the people on the 4Real Forums, as they keep me aware of supplementary things that we can do.
Ultimately, I don't think that it matters too much what materials we choose to use. I believe that the best ingredient for teaching our children is loving them unconditionally and praying for them constantly.
__________________
Christine
Mommy to 4 girls, 5 boys, & 2 in God's care
Memories of a Catholic Wife and Mother
Pretty Lilla Rose
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rivendellmom
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| Posted: Aug 16 2006 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
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Christine,
I was going to reply to this post, but you said it all. Thanks for putting my thoughts into words!
Jen
__________________
Jen in suburban Chicagoland Mom to Connor(91), Garrett(93), Reilly (95), Mary Katherine (98), Declan (05), Ronan in ^i^ 6/28/08
visit our new blog: http://recreationalscholar.blogspot.com/
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: CHC...is it really so much "easier" ?
