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JennGM
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| Posted: June 04 2013 at 8:35am | IP Logged
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Our plan is homeschool until junior high, so some of our education needs to focus on how to prepare for school situations -- writing, taking notes.
I know the junior high uses IEW. I'm basically failing in the CM writing department. I'm so adverse at getting a program to fix our problems. But looking at it for preparation, maybe?
Just wondering if anyone does use a combination, and if not, I'll be glad to hear other suggestions. This year we have to focus more on handwriting and writing.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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| Posted: June 04 2013 at 8:51am | IP Logged
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I should expand a little bit...what I'm worried about are two things:
1) since I'm cutting off the CM style at 7th grade, I'm worried that isn't enough time to form the good writing habits
2) my own self-failure of implementation of CM language arts consistently.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Mackfam
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| Posted: June 04 2013 at 9:31am | IP Logged
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I know you asked specifically about IEW, but I hope you'll give me some leeway in my answer because I'm not a big fan of IEW. I know I'm probably the only homeschooler that isn't a fan of TT or IEW (  ) and I'm ok with being a loner! I didn't care for it and neither did my kids and mostly because it WAS such a drastic departure from CM (methods and philosophy). Since I know you've been very literary based and CM in so much of what you've done, Jenn, I wanted to mention that because it's a big $$ investment...so if you do go this direction, do try it out. I do think IEW has a fantastic return-if-not-happy guarantee...at least I think I'm remembering that correctly, but check into it. I found that it didn't mesh with a CM philosophy - unlike other curriculum packages (writing, language arts, and others) that I could blend very easily and naturally with CM. So you'd need to recognize and accept that it isn't CM at all. Having said that, it works very well for some families and overall, I don't think it's a bad program! Not at all!
Ok...so if you're alright with me offering a couple of different options...
If you're concerned about writing and need help implementing but don't want to undercut your CM philosophy and approach to writing, I recommend Bravewriter. Highly! I've used it alongside our CM approach to writing - from beginning writer through high school - for several years now and still return to it!
Recently, Julie has been working on Language Arts plans that are tailored to the different phases of writers we may have and I love the look of these! You might take a look at Partnership Writing, which is intended for 9-10 yo, but could be a good remedial course if you feel that might work.
One more that holds your hand even more...
If you're looking for a program that's more classical in philosophy, I do like Memoria Press' Classical Composition series. Using the Progymnasmata, the program teaches writing using 14 composition skills starting with the fable. It doesn't depart entirely from CM methods (like narration), but it does present more of a structured format approach to writing if you feel you need that as a guide and manner of accountability to prepare your son for more academic writing. I find it does blend somewhat naturally with CM because it's based on immitation of classic forms of literature, forms which a literary-educated kid would recognize and be at home with.
So those would be my two suggestions. 
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Jen Mackintosh
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JennGM
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| Posted: June 04 2013 at 9:37am | IP Logged
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Thank you, Jen. Your answer is exactly what I was wondering. I've been balking at the sticker price, and worried that it's not what we're used to. So many homeschoolers in my area rave about it, and I'm still not convinced. I frankly don't like things that require too much preparation for me, because it doesn't usually happen here!
I'll look through your suggestions. I know Maryan likes Writing with Skill and she has the same plan for her sons as far as school track.
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pumpkinmom
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I'm going to second the Bravewriter book!! Get it from the co-op to save some money. It is way overpriced, but worth every penny. Meaning this is one of the few things I'm so glad I bought and didn't regret spending so much on it. I even spent extra and got an actually copy and not digital. It has helped me understand writing and develop a plan. My boys writing took off as soon as I implemented free writing according to Bravewriters instruction. I spent a long time reading it and immediately started the free writing with my boys, but didn't make a writing plan for another 6 months while I ponder all of it. I reference it all the time now. The relax approach has worked great. My oldest is ready for formal writing now. We are using Wordsmith next year to add some more formal writing. I got this book and really like it, but haven't started using it yet. Honestly I would wait to high school for any formal writing, but my oldest is interested and we are going explore his interest while it is there. 
I would contact the school he will be attending and ask what kind of writing is expected at the grade he will start. All writing programs are different. Some start outlining in middle school and some start it in late high school. Knowing what is expected will help you decide what you need to teach.
I researched WWS and it was too intense and teaching stuff to early for my liking. But, you may need it to have him ready for high school. I have a friend who uses it with her dd and likes it. They are spending two years on a book though.
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Erica Sanchez
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What do you mean, you're only homeschooling until 7th grade??? 
Jenn, I am just about to dive into IEW because I've had it sitting here for years and because another mom who has used it extensively in a co-op setting advised me to just have the kids watch the lesson (which may be intended for the teacher) and then do the assignment. So, my plan is to have several of my children do this together, maybe over the summer as an intensive writing type thing to give them the basics, and then move onto something like Bravewriter. I can't watch the lessons and then teach to my kids because of the time factor, so I'm hoping this works. I will let you know.
I love, love, love Andrew. I've heard him speak several times. His talk on music is what got us taking piano lessons. His talks on boys are excellent. I remember him saying in yet another talk something about children learning spelling and grammar from being read to and reading excellent books (which seems CM to me). There are so many things that I like about him, that I am going to trust that his writing program is good (even if not CM) and just use it and tweak as necessary.
But, back to the you're only homeschooling until 7th grade???
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My boys have thrived with IEW and we have managed to make it work with our CM LA. BUT it is not great for creative writing (imo) - so we combine with Karen Andreola's Story Starters for elementary and middle school.
We use Writing with Ease/Skill for Grades 1-4 and then switch to IEW.
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Grace&Chaos
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
| What do you mean, you're only homeschooling until 7th grade??? |
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Adding my
I'll have to say that I just discovered BraveWriter and boy was I disappointed that I didn't get it sooner. I've been reading through the Jungle and Julie makes so many references to CM. If you've been following CM thus far you'll be like me and have many "we're doing that already" and then the best part how to transition from those basic CM copywork, narration, dictation to actually getting your kids to write.
I agree it is a bit overpriced so do get the Co-op deal but, like you, I'm needing a little hand holding in the get them to write category. I've gotten Jot It Down and Partnership in Writing as well as the Highschool Helper for my oldest. I'm still at the read it myself stage but I do plan on using them next year for everyone.
I haven't used the complete IEW program but I'll admit that a few summers ago I did have my oldest view and go through the Writing Intensive A dvd's. Andrew is great and her outlining is wonderful as a result. But I've made an effort to introduce outlining to my 4th grader in a CM kind of way when we narrate. Nothing big just a little guidance and hopefully soon she can actually write down an outline her self. We're still at one written narration per week for her...we'll get there.
Back to IEW, I like the outline practice but don't want to use again because I don't want my kids to have the very programmatic way of always writing. Thus, I'm enjoying BraveWriter because it guides you to guide your kids in original good writing modeled after all the wonderful literature we're already giving them.
CM's steps are there for a purpose and like you Jenn I'm entering that next level too...a little scary isn't it? 
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JennGM
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
What do you mean, you're only homeschooling until 7th grade???
Jenn, I am just about to dive into IEW because I've had it sitting here for years and because another mom who has used it extensively in a co-op setting advised me to just have the kids watch the lesson (which may be intended for the teacher) and then do the assignment. So, my plan is to have several of my children do this together, maybe over the summer as an intensive writing type thing to give them the basics, and then move onto something like Bravewriter. I can't watch the lessons and then teach to my kids because of the time factor, so I'm hoping this works. I will let you know.
I love, love, love Andrew. I've heard him speak several times. His talk on music is what got us taking piano lessons. His talks on boys are excellent. I remember him saying in yet another talk something about children learning spelling and grammar from being read to and reading excellent books (which seems CM to me). There are so many things that I like about him, that I am going to trust that his writing program is good (even if not CM) and just use it and tweak as necessary.
But, back to the you're only homeschooling until 7th grade??? |
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I love Andrew, too. I was first introduced to him because of his music talks, and love what he does. I'll be waiting to hear how your summer goes!
When we originally agreed to homeschool, my DH always considered it until high school, or junior high. We have a good school nearby that the boys will attend...Maryan's dh is the basketball coach. 
Of course if things are rough we'll reconsider. But don't worry, I have 4 years difference between my two boys, so when he's gone during the day I'll still have my younger one for another 4 years.
I do sometimes wish we were doing high school because I've got such great reading I'd love to line up...but I'll still do that in smaller ways. He's being groomed now -- he's such a prolific reader I know he'll still want to continue the reading path.
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Erica Sanchez
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JennGM wrote:
| But don't worry, I have 4 years difference between my two boys, so when he's gone during the day I'll still have my younger one for another 4 years. |
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Oh, good! Said selfishly. :)
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Maryan's enthusiasm keeps tempting me too, the only thing that has really stopped me is I'm more after something for my older dc and they haven't got that far yet.
Jen, I really should pull out my Bravewriter and give it a better  perhaps it will work better for me now with more years of experience under my belt. I found it too loose before but that was because I lacked self-discipline I have actually grown in that area
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I have talked to a IEW representative at a conference about CM homeschooling and whether his program is a little too structured and formal. She said that the point of the program is to teach HOW to write in a logical way. Once you get the mechanics of writing down and adding the embellishments, you move onto just writing and finding your personal style. You only use the program as long as you need it and it lays a wonderful foundation.
I have the Bravewriter book and I do love it.
I basically think that it comes down to your confidence in teaching writing. I was an English Lit major and feel pretty confident teaching writing and as long as my kids are also fairly natural writers, I will use Bravewriter. If they struggle with writing, I will definitely consider IEW or Classical Composition.
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Maryan
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Ahhhh Jenn.
In a perfect world, I would rather do my own copywork, dictation, etc., but I discovered that in my crazy world, I couldn't implement it as well as I wanted with *each* of my kids.
Writing with Ease fills that guilt issue that I might not be doing written narration "right." As I told my cousin recently, I have a love affair with Susan Wise Bauer because she is soooo organized. Her grammar and writing is laid out in 36 week, 4 day format. It makes planning so easy. And if I don't end up using all 36 weeks, I just skip some -- but it's still easy to schedule.
And she holds your hand the whole time.
I only do WWE1 and WWE3 (and space it out). I love that she lays out a 36 week, 4 day program --even if I use it differently by making it a 2 day a week thing). Perhaps in a few years, I can do it with our actual books for narration with her routine.
Anyway... Writing with Skill is the same -- except it is written to the STUDENT. So I love it more than WWE. It's a pretty book, good graphics, and good routine. I didn't have to spend the summer prereading it and figuring it out. The teacher book has with answers and samples when my son needs me. It's set up for him to be mostly independent. If he's completely struggling, then I have a sample to help spark ideas.
IMO, it is much more difficult than WWE. She starts with narration and moves from there. (Hmmm... I guess we've never done WWE4, so I'm not sure how big that step is, but I think the work he did this year was tough. IMO easily 7th grade work -- especially at the end with notecards, footnotes, etc.) It is all non-fiction writing.
(See her sample pages to read the scope of the program.) My son did weeks 1 - 23 essentially on his own which was a combination of narrations and outlining, etc., but needed help with the next few weeks. That's when we ended up slowing down a bit and not following her weeks. We ended up splitting week 28 and 29 into a couple of weeks both. It was an assignment taking notes (the first week) and then writing a five paragraph essay on Julius Caesar (the second week). We took more than two weeks.
We never got to the poetry (weeks 32ish?), but I would like to do one poem and the final project (weeks 35 & 36) over the summer in which he writes a paper but he chooses the subject/source.
I should add that Peacehill Press sells a (sample pages here) 36 week creative writer program as well... I have Book 1, but I haven't decided if I will use it or not. Honestly the Bravewriter stuff looks more interesting for that?? But... I am at a quandry because Writing with Skill 2 won't come out until the end of the summer, and I'd like to take a peak before ordering it. I want to see how much the next level jumps in skill. WWS1 would be enough for me to feel like it was a good prep for jhs, but my oldest has another year at home, so... I just haven't decided what we should do for my oldest next year for sure.
Branch out on our own?? Just for my oldest. Gasp. I'm not sure it would work just yet -- we're a lot of littles still.
There's tons to say about homeschooling and preparing a child's mind and life writing for college and life in general... and homeschooling and preparing a child for jhs/hs and then college and life. But I'm burning dinner.
Oh and you might want to ignore my review if you are a person who is more concerned with the writing method than my current concern which is "Wow, we *actually* all did narrating today!" This program fits us where we are right now; we actually do written narrations, etc. I'm sure there are other programs whose methods who could very well be better -- we just can't do them.
And I'm sure there's some of you here who can't stand this program for different reasons!! I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to proclaim that WWE/WWS is the BEST writing program EVER!! I'm not. I'm just sharing that this works for us and here's why.
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Maryan
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lapazfarm
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I just wanted to add that for those who have tried Bravewriter before and found it confusing to implement, Julie's new products, Jot it Down and Partnership Writing may be just the thing for you. I purchased Partnership Writing last week and have been so very impressed. It really hand-holds you all the way through with monthly writing projects all laid out, sample daily schedules and everything! Just add your own copywork/dictation selections (or a subscription to the Arrow)and you are set!
I have to admit I have been a Bravewriter fan for many years, but this new product line just makes it so much more accessible. 
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lapazfarm wrote:
I just wanted to add that for those who have tried Bravewriter before and found it confusing to implement, Julie's new products, Jot it Down and Partnership Writing may be just the thing for you. I purchased Partnership Writing last week and have been so very impressed. It really hand-holds you all the way through with monthly writing projects all laid out, sample daily schedules and everything! Just add your own copywork/dictation selections (or a subscription to the Arrow)and you are set!
I have to admit I have been a Bravewriter fan for many years, but this new product line just makes it so much more accessible. |
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This is exactly what I was thinking, Theresa, so I'm glad you shared your thoughts about Partnership Writing!
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Jen Mackintosh
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anniemm
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This is a very helpful thread. My oldest is 9, I was thinking of just focusing on quality narrations this year and then joining a co-op for IEW next year. However, this Partnership Writing looks really interesting. Must the Bravewriter book be purchased as well, or could I potentially get away with just Partnership Writing? The whole thing is quite costly. 
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Maryan
Just wanted to let you know you're enthusiasm has finally sold me on Writing with Skill It looks just like what I have been looking for.
Do you recommend I buy both the teacher and student books?
and is the student book consumable? that is would I be better buying it as a download so I can print it out for multiple students? (thinking of using this with my Grades 7, 9 and maybe even 12 student)
Jen
Also adding Bravewriter to our program, dusting Writer's Jungle off(I was never disciplined enough in the past to use it) planning on using WJ for the creative writing component of our writing program
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Maryan
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Erin, I wish I could be giving you a recommendation on Writing with Skill #2 as well -- but we didn't do it this year because it came out AFTER our year had started and I didn't want to make lesson plans with it... if it didn't come out and/or it was too advanced for John Paul.
So the book is written for the student and our teacher book didn't get used very often, but there were some times when I was confused as to what she wanted that samples in the teacher book were helpful.
They are both VERY large books. They are not consummable -- there are a couple of pages that she does want you to mark up, but copying 2 pages out of the 300 to me is not breaking the copyright. I don't think she intended it to be consummable. So do either -- but be aware that it will be a lot of printing! Hmmm.... now that I think about this... If you have a ipad that can read pdfs -- that would be fine for the teacher book! It would also be fine for the student book (again I can only speak about BOOK 1) except for the few spots where she wanted to mark up the book. So maybe a pdf on a device would be perfect! And just print the few pages that you need.
You could probably ask the people at the Well Trained Mind about whether this would work for #2.
On a side note -- I'm kind of bummed that I didn't do Writing with Skill with him this year instead of last year because I think it would be great prep for him doing papers at a brick and mortar school that he's going to next year. And as I said, it was pretty advanced at the end. We'll do the last few lessons that we didn't do last year in the Spring this year.
HTH! Also I do think what Bravewriter offers is much better than the creative writing offered at Peace Hill. We just could not use the book we bought.
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Maryan
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Maryan
In that case I'd prefer to buy both the teacher and student books as 'real' books. It's only a few dollars savings to get the pdf copy.
Considering they are so large would you say they are one or two years work?
Would WWS1 be too easy for older students? I'm thinking I need something for my grades 7, 9 & 12 children. Could I do WWS2 with my 16yr old without doing WWS1? Would that be a better option?
Really appreciate your input regards Brave Writer and Creative writing from Peace Hill
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Maryan
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Erin it's set up to be one years worth of work and culminates in research projects.
You might be able to stretch over two years. I'm kind of doing that -- just doing the end weeks during the end weeks of this year.
I find all of Susan Wise Bauer tends to be at a higher level than I expect from my kids. My son as a 6th grader did this independently (as I mentioned) until about week 23. Then he needed my help. And then really, really needed my help. So I think WWS1 would be fine and challenging for a 7th grader and probably a 9th grader.
Again, the projects at the end of the year were beyond what I wanted to teach a 6th grader. I don't remember learning MLA rules, etc. until high school. I remember needing to provide a bibliography for papers -- but not so detailed?
Cathy Duffy gives a detailed description of the skills covered in WWS1.
I wish I could speak about WWS2, but I haven't even seen the samples -- as it works out WWS1 is probably all we will do before my kids go off to school.
I *think* she might have a pdf of the first few weeks(for both WWS1 and 2 I think), so you could always print and give a dry run and see what the reactions to it are? That way you can tell if you think it would be redundant to your 12th grader?
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: IEW and CM compatible?
