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AmandaV
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A post today by Lindafay, creator of Charlotte Mason Help and blogger:
Hard books and Uninterested Children
I recently joined her yahoo group. I believe this post came from a discussion there. In discussion History alternatives to TCOO, she stated that a certain American History book we've discussed is twaddle and and that one should stick with This Country of Ours. I saw them as comparable but that the other one is more accessible and more narrative, with less Catholic issues to be worried about. Now I wonder if I can even tell what twaddle is. What do you think? Is there room for discussion about this? About what twaddle really is? I know Ambleside sticks to TCOO...
I've been thinking about the idea - new to me -that we expose them to good language but they won't necessarily understand it at a young age, but the exposure is to get used to the language and type of writing, not necessarily for the content. But I thought that CM was about content, and children being exposed to good ideas and good content in a well written book, along with art, music, etc. The good, the true and the beautiful. I want the kids to understand what we read... I have more to say but I have to go get a pumpkin. :)
Any thoughts?
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Edited to add this clarification from Amanda made on November 2, 2012, regarding Lindafay's thoughts as expressed on her yahoo group:
Ladies, I have a correction and apology to make. I mistakenly mis-represented Lindafay's post from her yahoo group, and after reviewing her words more closely I see that she clearly stated that she considers Pratt's books to be simple, useful for younger children, but not twaddle. I was reading several old posts and must have mixed things up. I am so sorry and regret this mistake and any confusion it caused. I usually check my words very carefully. I am happy to be able to clear it up so that there is no more confusion on the Pratt books. Please forgive me.
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JodieLyn
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As far as I could ever tell, what is "twaddle" depends almost entirely on opinion.. so someone else's opinon on it just doesn't faze me much.. they're welcome to their opinion.. but it doesn't mean it has to be mine. 
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pumpkinmom
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I agree with Jodie!
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lapazfarm
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JodieLyn wrote:
| As far as I could ever tell, what is "twaddle" depends almost entirely on opinion.. so someone else's opinon on it just doesn't faze me much.. they're welcome to their opinion.. but it doesn't mean it has to be mine. |
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Ditto that.
And as for that article, while I respect Lindafay's opinion, I don't agree with much of it.
First, it seems as if she is saying either a book is hard and good, or easy and twaddle. No in between at all. I find that kind of artificial dichotomy hard to swallow.
Second, the idea that varying from the course by taking rabbit trails is somehow "limiting" the exposure to ideas. Ridiculous. It simply exposes them to different ones. Deep vs broad. It's beneficial to have both perspectives.
Third, the idea that one specific book is perfect for every child goes against CM's own assertion that children are BORN PEOPLE. By definition this means that they are created by God to be different and unique. Thank God we as parents have the right to get to know our children and tailor our educational materials to their specific talents.
Please do not elevate anyone else's opinion above your own when it comes to what is best for your child.
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Betsy
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You have been given great advice here already, but I will add my 2cents.
I think sometime we can see these things more clear if we look at it from a different perspective. While it's my goal that my children learn, say, calculus, they can not handle that at early grades...or middle school...or even early high school. They need to build a foundation of good arithmetic first, the need to see a use for number, they need to be able to manipulate numbers not just regurgitate facts. All, of these things are critically important to them learning calculus...but they are not in fact calculus.
With books it's the same. To be able to read great literature and comprehend the ideas in it (which is most important) we need to lay that foundation. To do this we start with books that the children enjoy, and are written well. We lay this foundation and keep creeping closer to the end goal as the child is read for it. Great ideas don't need to be complicated or written in Old English, or published before 1930. Great ideas come in lots of different forms...and for each child it will be something different that will ignite them!
Like you said, if it is good, true and beautiful then it is GOOD!
And before a child can eat the feast set before them they need to be nursed, and then be weaned into soft foods, then small amount of good nutritious food....and then the feast! 
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AmandaV
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Thanks ladies! What great support and thoughts. I'll try to be more confident in my own ability to discern. :)
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Amanda
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kristinannie
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I have mixed feelings about this blog post. I have to admit that I seriously underestimated my kids' ability to understand difficult language. In fact, books that I thought would be over their heads have actually been some of their favorites. So, I am a big believer in challenging kids with beautiful, living books.
That said, I also think that she goes a little too far in this blog post. I think there is plenty of room for easier books in the kids' day! We read plenty of picture books just for fun and read alouds that are written more at their level (as the world would see it). However, my kids love some of those books as well. Honestly, I think it is a good idea to have a balanced mix. It is hard for a child to focus on difficult book after difficult book throughout the day (and we read A LOT of books throughout the day). Similarly, I pesronally have several books going at once and at least one of them is what I consider to be an easy read. Right now, I am going through the Regina Doman fairy tale books. They aren't twaddle, but they aren't Plutarch either. Sometimes, you just want to relax and enjoy a good story.
I do think it is important to allow your children to hear beautiful language during their day. They might not understand every single word, but they understand more than we think. I also think it is fine to go down rabbit trails. We read plenty of books about dinosaurs right now because my son is really into dinosaurs. He has a passion for it. However, it isn't all we read. It is just a part of the feast.
I think we all need to be careful in planning our childrens' curricula. I think we need to take their interests into account and their likes and dislikes. I have been known to not finish a book (even a worthy living book) because my kids were just not interested. We will pick it up again later and try it again. There are so many living books that I don't see the point in pushing through a book that no one can seem to get into. I am not saying that I will always allow my children to stop reading these books, but they are young and love read alouds. I want to encourage their enthusiasm.
So, I guess I just think that she drew a line in the sand that was a little too firm in my opinion in her blog post. I think her intentions were good, but she just took it too far. Delight is meant to be part of any CM education and we have to be careful to draw a fine balance.
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JennGM
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I enjoyed this viewpoint, I guess because I do this. I do try to persevere through a book and stick to what we are doing even if we struggle sometimes. We have done TCOO here, but slowly.
I don't see a dichotomy. "When you decide to take Charlotte Mason's advice and present a feast of many, many ideas to your children through the reading of numerous living books," is mentioned at the beginning, which to me means a great variety, not just one particular book.
And if you follow CM, she didn't always stick to one book, she changed over time if there was something better. She didn't always look back at the old, but looked forward.
I guess I don't see her as stating "read this, not that" but more of stick to it, persevere, it's not necessary to go down to a lower level of writing. The classics, the books that are well-written will speak to the child, even if you think at the beginning they won't.
In some ways her article reminds me of the classical approach. The ideas are brewing, and the memory is recalling, but it's still stirring, and we'll see the connections and recall perhaps at a later point in time. We can't pull up the roots to see if it's taking root.
In approaching a CM education I see that there should be wide margins in allowing a variety of reading alongside the main texts. And this would include picture books and "easy" books -- a variety, a feast.
Karen Edmisten had some wonderful posts that I think fit right into this vein: Masterly Inactivity and How to Raise Readers that talks about this. I was especially struck by the library ones, 8 and 9. This is so us.
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CrunchyMom
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Well, I'm pretty sure that *I* switched from TCOO to the book she called twaddle 
I get what she's saying, but a few thoughts.
1) Charlotte Mason taught in a classroom. If most of the kids in the classroom didn't like the book, don't you think she'd switch? I homeschool. If my child doesn't care for a book, it's the whole classroom.
2) Are we talking about read alouds? Books to be narrated? Books read independently? She didn't really specify, but I think that might have a bearing on whether a book is working.
3) Are there things to do when we feel it isn't working? Read smaller sections?
4) What if I set it aside *for later*?
We have read some meaty historical novels as read alouds this year, and my oldest reads a lot of meaty books on their own.
I do get the feeling that she's giving a lot more weight to this particular book than is necessary, that it isn't simply a generic post. It IS a great book! It isn't the only book. Does it have to be read in 1-3 grade? Marshall never intended it as a text but as a storybook children would enjoy on their own. Is the book made lesser if it is read this way? In the preface she says
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| For, after all, you know, this is only a play book. It is not a book which you need knit your brows over, or in which you will find pages of facts, or politics, and long strings of dates. But it is a book, I hope, which when you lay it down will make you say, "I'm glad that I was born an American. I'm glad that I can salute the stars and stripes as my flag." |
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Need it be something you persevere through at 7? Can't it just be something you delight in at 9 or 10?
Also, I recall a recent article about children's literature where I agreed with so much the author said...until he dismissed Louisa May Alcott as mediocre.  I simply can't agree.  So, while I think that some things are objectively twaddle, other things are a matter of taste.
I must admit that I've gotten behind in our history reading this year, so I can't say much about the quality of Pratt. I think it reads a bit like Eggleston, but I'm not always good a gauging these things.
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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guitarnan
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I'm a big fan of Jim Trelease and his philosophy of reading aloud to children for as long as they'll let you, preferably through at least 8th grade. (Of course, children should also read silently - it's not a trade.)
We often set books aside if they were too challenging as read-alouds, only to pick them up later. It took me a while to figure out what my children liked to read and liked me to read to them (there was a definite difference).
We STILL (note my childrens' ages) pull out favorite Christmas picture books each year to page through and enjoy. For us, at this point, they might be twaddle, but they're really not - they're memories, happy ones.
I think in the case of history texts/books that it's especially important for 1) children to enjoy the reading process and 2) parents to understand the motivations behind the author's words. That's why I read so many living books about history and why I look so carefully at all history materials. Besides the problems created by anti-Catholic authors, there are other biases to look for, and it just takes practice. Once you can do it, you can teach your older children to look for the same things.
So, there's more to history materials than rich, challenging language and concepts, IMHO. Content and author intent are very important, too.
As home educating parents, we know our children best and we can decide when it's appropriate to challenge our young learners, to present them with an array (Jenn's feast!) of delightful picture books, works of art and poetry, to read to them, read with them and read alongside them.
I've always found the busy weeks of Thanksgiving/Advent a wonderful time to strew picture books, craft materials and saint stories around the house...as the days darken, I think young and young-at-heart folks yearn for rich colors, "word pictures" and productive work.
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BlessedWith3SNP
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Well, I didn't read the article. But if the "twaddle" books are American History Stories by Mara Pratt, then my children are on deck for twaddle. Because that's what I plan on using for them.
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Mackfam
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I enjoyed the article a great deal and found it very interesting.
There is a definite philosophy to a Charlotte Mason education and it hinges on three key areas: (1) atmosphere, (2) discipline, and (3) life. Now, no one is required to sign up for the full CM trifecta-shebang, but it does work. And beautifully. It's also quite rigorous, which I think is perhaps not so recognized. And since the article was written by a CM educator and with the goal of conveying the importance of hard books within a CM education, I'm going to speak to the idea within that context of a CM education.
Removing one of these three aspects (atmosphere, discipline, life) removes something integral to a CM education. And this idea of persistence and attentiveness to "hard books" lives in the area of intellectual discipline, which I think is sometimes misunderstood.
I don't mean discipline as a forceful, authoritarian figure ominously standing over a 7yo loudly admonishing them: "You WILL read Marshall today!". I mean a discipline that stretches and builds intellectual muscle. It's the same discipline used in becoming an athlete, or training in some other skill. Patient persistence and stretching is required to grow in skill and stamina.
So, speaking generally, a living book would contain beautiful, worthy thoughts conveyed by an author with a passionate knowledge for their subject. The writing style can be varied and sometimes quite challenging, and though I see great value in current in-print books, I'll also be honest and say I don't see as much quality writing style in current writing. Charlotte Mason did look forward, but she also drew from classically well written books, too. A good example would be her consistent choice of Plutarch in her Programmes. By no means current - but excellent writing!
My first priority in choosing books is to select books because they are written well and contain worthy thoughts conveyed with great and diverse style. And I have a second goal, I look for books that will gently stretch a particular student - hard books.
This "disciplined training" does yield exactly the fruit that Lindafay refers to in her post: a wide and varied familiarity with a rich feast - a banquet - of living thoughts and ideas. Disciplined training increases strength, endurance, stamina, and over the years the child gains wisdom that comes from discriminating reading! For today it may be Marshall/TCOO...in a few years they'll be reading St. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Tolstoy, Plato, Chaucer...and likely Darwin, Freud, Hegel and others - authors which will require their breadth of understanding and scope of ideas in order to reason. Without the necessary stamina and breadth of ideas gained from slow and steady training and stretching through reading "hard books, these kinds of books may be out of reach.
Now, am I saying that in order to read Augustine or Darwin one must have (a) complied with a full CM education for their entire lives and (b) have read TCOO at 7yo?? No. I did want to emphasize how this idea IS a part of the philosophy of a Charlotte Mason education though, and why it is, and where it comes from...and how big a role it plays.
I don't think Lindafay meant slavishly following a book, though I do think she emphasizes persistence and fortitude. And for the sake of argument, I happen to disagree with the ages generally recommended for TCOO, preferring to use the book with slightly older children. I find the book a wonderful example of worthy writing (note that I am not referring to bias in the book, just writing style) and definitely worthwhile in persevering.
I suspect Lindafay will get into some of her strategies for assisting the "intellectual athlete" through a hard book in upcoming posts. Mine would probably be similar:
1) S-L-O-W reading of small passages. Narrate everything.
2) After a "hard book", have something that acts as a soothing balm on the schedule.
3) Don't overload the schedule with hard books - I include one or two a term.
4) Be willing to enter a dialogue with a student that is encountering a "hard book"::: Why do you find this book difficult?
:: Is it hard to read?
:: Words/vocabulary you don't understand/can't read?
:: Ideas you don't understand?
:: Is the writing hard to follow? Have you ever encountered writing like this before?
:: Let's talk about other difficult books on your schedule - how many can you identify that are difficult for you?
:: Can you narrate a portion of this book for me - the assigned reading from today?
:: Do you understand the perspective of the author writing this book?
Then, I generally consider their input and may sometimes share why I like the book, brainstorm ways we can approach this "hard book" so that it is more approachable and reasonable. Then I will probably ask them to persevere - to stretch - assuring the child that I will continue considering the book throughout the term.
There are a couple of books I can think of that this disciplined stretching has yielded great fruit for us over the years, and as Lindafay noted, the results of the persistent reading were not obvious for some time. One of them has been Churchill's A History of the English Speaking Peoples. Definitely NOT considered a favorite writing style by the child reading it, but both the child/reader and I have been surprised at how many connections have been made from reading Churchill and now this child is reading a scholar of American history whose style is similar, and though still not a favorite, that intellectual muscle is there.
I'm not on the yahoo group, so I'm not sure of the book/author that is considered twaddle as an alternative to TCOO, but I really didn't consider her article as focused on twaddle, or what it is, as much as the idea of the importance of the discipline aspect of a CM education in being persistent and stretching through worthy books, well written...even those that a child may consider "hard."
I have a couple of minutes and wanted to quickly look at Lindsay's questions and give my thoughts:
CrunchyMom wrote:
| 1) Charlotte Mason taught in a classroom. If most of the kids in the classroom didn't like the book, don't you think she'd switch? I homeschool. If my child doesn't care for a book, it's the whole classroom. |
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Honestly, I don't think she'd change a book based on classroom preference, but I do know that she DID sometimes replace a book on the schedule. From The Story of Charlotte Mason (emphasis mine):
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| Miss Mason would take a book out of the school if it was not doing good work for the children. |
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When I consider a book, I try to consider it in that light: is it doing good work for the child? And I do sometimes remove books from the schedule. I consider that a child must be able to hear and connect with the author speaking, knowing that the book is the primary teacher, not me. That is how the book works for the child. I can determine this through narrations. I also consider that sometimes my thoughts shared, or a perspective not considered, can be helpful to a child in continuing. It is a process that is very considerate, is for the child's sake, and the child's preference, while considered, isn't the deciding factor. As their VERY ATTENTIVE personal trainer, I know their abilities, and I know when they're capable of stretching.
The choice of books is of such primary importance in a CM education that I have never chosen to delegate that responsibility to anyone else. It is perhaps the primary reason I do not use other lists (AO/MA) as our booklists. The consideration of books chosen is of primary importance. I want to consider carefully what I choose, and why, so that I can have a good and fruitful dialogue if a child needs encouragement in persevering in a book. If it's hard, I want to know it, and I want to consider areas that a child will have to stretch BEFORE I even give the book to the child. And knowing this, I can lay out a schedule that is balanced: with challenging books alternating with simple (not to be confused with twaddle).
CrunchyMom wrote:
| 2) Are we talking about read alouds? Books to be narrated? Books read independently? She didn't really specify, but I think that might have a bearing on whether a book is working. |
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I'm not sure what Lindafay was referring to...but in general I think of hard books as ones read independently and narrated. I suppose that a read aloud could be hard, but (qualifier here) as a CM educator of many children across a span of ages, my read aloud time is limited. So, if they CAN read independently, they do. My read aloud time is reserved for non-independent readers and family read alouds which are for enjoyment, not for narrating, and they generally aren't on the schedule. An exception would be our Morning Basket reading, and there is a definite spectrum of reading choices in there! Some of which is WAY over the littles heads. I still read to everyone - just small bits.
CrunchyMom wrote:
| 3) Are there things to do when we feel it isn't working? Read smaller sections? |
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Yes, I think so. See above.
CrunchyMom wrote:
| 4) What if I set it aside *for later*? |
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I don't see anything wrong with this, and I've done it at times. If a book is not doing good work for a child, it is set aside. Sometimes it is set aside because it can't work and I didn't choose well, and sometimes it's because it will work better when the child has a better abstract understanding of something, or builds a little more muscle in attention.
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I've been piecing this post together since yesterday so I hope it makes some sense.
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CrunchyMom
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MackFam wrote:
| If it's hard, I want to know it, and I want to consider areas that a child will have to stretch BEFORE I even give the book to the child. And knowing this, I can lay out a schedule that is balanced: with challenging books alternating with simple (not to be confused with twaddle). |
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That makes sense to me. It was why I changed. I wanted to use other titles to stretch more rather than the history spine. I'm still figuring a lot of this out and learning how to better make those judgments ahead of time, but this is a learning process for me, too!
MackFam wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
| 2) Are we talking about read alouds? Books to be narrated? Books read independently? She didn't really specify, but I think that might have a bearing on whether a book is working. |
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I'm not sure what Lindafay was referring to...but in general I think of hard books as ones read independently and narrated. |
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She said in the post
Quote:
| I read aloud This Country of Ours to my children when they were six, seven and eight years old. |
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So when I see titles recommended on CM lists and by advocates for various ages, I do think it would help me if they were clearer whether they expect it to be read aloud or independently for those ages. If I am trying to encourage them to read independently and carefully, requiring narration, I look at a book differently. I chose Pratt's book because my son struggled so much with narrating TCOO and I felt he needed to work up to it more. Had I been reading it aloud simply to enjoy together, I don't think it would have been "too hard."
Do you happen to know how it was used in Charlotte Mason classrooms? Videos I see have them reading aloud a good deal, sometimes having the children take turns. But I'm never sure if that's what it always looks like or if it is simply camera-friendly.
I also thought that the early part of TCOO spent a lot of time on relatively obscure aspects of history that weren't especially engaging until you had a more general knowledge of American History.
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Lindsay
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My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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Mackfam wrote:
I don't think Lindafay meant slavishly following a book, though I do think she emphasizes persistence and fortitude. And for the sake of argument, I happen to disagree with the ages generally recommended for TCOO, preferring to use the book with slightly older children. I find the book a wonderful example of worthy writing (note that I am not referring to bias in the book, just writing style) and definitely worthwhile in persevering. |
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I think that knowing that she had just participated in a discussion labeling another book as twaddle before insisting this book was good *for those ages* colored my reading of her piece.
I do think she dismissed the notion of finding that particular book advanced for those particular ages, as if having that opinion meant you weren't "stretching" them enough. But again, when you are making a choice, and a (respected) author uses a title as an example about which you made that choice, it is hard not to take it somewhat personally and react somewhat emotionally. 
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Lindsay
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My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JennGM
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Lindsay, you are never hasty. You are thoughtful, prudent, research deeply before you make a decision. You know your children best, and so I wouldn't take it personally! If Jen doesn't use TCOO for younger years, then you're in really good company!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Grace&Chaos
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JennGM wrote:
| Lindsay, you are never hasty. You are thoughtful, prudent, research deeply before you make a decision. You know your children best, and so I wouldn't take it personally! If Jen doesn't use TCOO for younger years, then you're in really good company! |
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I'll agree with this statement
TCOO isn't a book that we've used yet either. It's on my list for next year but I've chosen not to use it yet. I think I've been buidling towards it with other selections we've made.
The discussion is wonderful. It almost takes us back to the other thread about booklists. There are so many wonderful books and suggestions on when to use them. I've always thought of them as suggestions and used them when I thought they fit our year best.
A good book is a must but I do agree that CM is a whole. There is that "training" Jen mentions towards those harder books with other worthy ones. To this point, in my home, I like to emphasize those tools of narration, habit of attention, copywork, and make sure that we excercise them with good books and build each childs education with a 'worthy feast'.
I have a hard time on forums because I don't want to feel quilty about my choices or lack of. My goal has been to understand CM and apply the best I can. I have discovered that she is tough but if you follow correctly you are paving a simple road towards a great living education.
I hope this didn't sound to rambly. I think that persistance and perserverance are good attributes to have in a CM home.
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Blessings,
Jenny
Mom to dds(00,03) and dss(05,06,08,09)
Grace in Loving Chaos
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Nov 01 2012 at 10:59am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
MackFam wrote:
| If it's hard, I want to know it, and I want to consider areas that a child will have to stretch BEFORE I even give the book to the child. And knowing this, I can lay out a schedule that is balanced: with challenging books alternating with simple (not to be confused with twaddle). |
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That makes sense to me. It was why I changed. I wanted to use other titles to stretch more rather than the history spine. I'm still figuring a lot of this out and learning how to better make those judgments ahead of time, but this is a learning process for me, too! |
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I think it's fine to be choosy in terms of where you ask your child to stretch. It REALLY IS a learning process, Lindsay! And I don't think this is in any way contrary to CM nor the ideas put forward in Lindafay's article. It is when we eschew a challenging book(s) entirely (based on a child's overall dislike in stretching or being challenged) in favor of, or in preference to, what CM and we here have referred to here as twaddle that we do a dis-service. I don't see a dis-service when considering a book, considering the child and the child's narrations of that book, whether the book is doing good work for the child, and then making a choice regarding its place on the schedule based on that. And a part of that is always considering how much stretching I'm asking a child to do in other reading/subjects so as not to crush or overwhelm, but always to gently stretch.
I see your process and consideration of TCOO as quite thoughtful, Lindsay. A living book can be read at any age and enjoyed - it is perhaps one of the most outstanding hallmarks of a living book. Which means you can return to Marshall at any time!
CrunchyMom wrote:
MackFam wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
| 2) Are we talking about read alouds? Books to be narrated? Books read independently? She didn't really specify, but I think that might have a bearing on whether a book is working. |
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I'm not sure what Lindafay was referring to...but in general I think of hard books as ones read independently and narrated. |
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She said in the post
Quote:
| I read aloud This Country of Ours to my children when they were six, seven and eight years old. |
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So when I see titles recommended on CM lists and by advocates for various ages, I do think it would help me if they were clearer whether they expect it to be read aloud or independently for those ages. If I am trying to encourage them to read independently and carefully, requiring narration, I look at a book differently. I chose Pratt's book because my son struggled so much with narrating TCOO and I felt he needed to work up to it more. Had I been reading it aloud simply to enjoy together, I don't think it would have been "too hard."
Do you happen to know how it was used in Charlotte Mason classrooms? Videos I see have them reading aloud a good deal, sometimes having the children take turns. But I'm never sure if that's what it always looks like or if it is simply camera-friendly. |
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Those are the examples I've seen, too. It's a great question though and I'm not sure I know the definitive answer of how Marshall is used in CM classrooms off the top of my head.
Though I'd enjoy the answer, I'd likely only be able to use the example insofar as I could claim ideas that would work in a home setting. AND...I don't believe that how it looks or differs between classroom/home school room to be of primary importance. After all, CM used her Programmes both in a classroom setting in Ambleside, AND in home settings coordinated and guided by the Parents Union Schools (later PNEU). I imagine that those home settings had to find some of the same solutions and compromises we must find in our homes in implementing CM.
CM philosophy and framework: read from living books and narrate.
Flexibility within the framework: There is a broad picture of "right ways" reading and narrating can look...from the teacher reading aloud, students reading aloud, listening to an audio book, student reading independently, etc. Children can narrate as a group, alone, written, orally, through a picture, summary, detailed.
As home educators, we'll consider books for our students based on how our home must function, the children in our care, and the necessity of frugality with our time in the home. It's good to give ourselves/myself permission to be flexible within the framework and philosophy.
So, I'm not being dismissive of your question at all, Lindsay! But the answer may not provide me (or you...or any other home educator) anything but a valuable example from which we might glean some useful ideas, like the importance of brainstorming group narrations. And...how *I* use Marshall's book is a reflection of the needs, ages, limitations in my home. In our home it's read independently (from 9-11yo) and narrated. Lindafay read it aloud - her choice. How you use it and when can depend on a variety of factors and I'm not sure that one could claim rightness or wrongness as long as you were considerate of whether or not the book was doing good work for the child.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Mackfam
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CrunchyMom wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
I don't think Lindafay meant slavishly following a book, though I do think she emphasizes persistence and fortitude. And for the sake of argument, I happen to disagree with the ages generally recommended for TCOO, preferring to use the book with slightly older children. I find the book a wonderful example of worthy writing (note that I am not referring to bias in the book, just writing style) and definitely worthwhile in persevering. |
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I think that knowing that she had just participated in a discussion labeling another book as twaddle before insisting this book was good *for those ages* colored my reading of her piece.
I do think she dismissed the notion of finding that particular book advanced for those particular ages, as if having that opinion meant you weren't "stretching" them enough. But again, when you are making a choice, and a (respected) author uses a title as an example about which you made that choice, it is hard not to take it somewhat personally and react somewhat emotionally. |
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Interesting. I can see how your reading of that article would be influenced by the discussion you read. Since I didn't read the yahoo discussion, nor is it public, I won't ask questions about the details of it.  And I don't mean to be flippant or disrespectful to the author of the article at all here - I just don't care. I find those kind of details to be trespassing within the great malleability which exists within a Charlotte Mason education.
I'm content and very comfortable and grounded in the BIG PICTURE framework and philosophy of a Charlotte Mason education, which, for the purpose of this discussion is in challenging and stretching a student in their reading. Yes: hard books, each term, for each student, gently stretching.
Which hard books I choose and how I choose to implement them in order that the book does good work for the child has always been a point of flexibility - in fact it is one which Charlotte Mason insisted on. It is why she NEVER wanted a rigid, pre-determined "Charlotte Mason" curriculum! Edited: The PNEU Programmes which followed Charlotte Mason's philosophy of education were delightfully flexible - go look at a few. They change - often. Which means that different children in different Programmes encountered DIFFERENT "hard books"!!!
There. That's my 2 cents!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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AmandaV
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I think that knowing that she had just participated in a discussion labeling another book as twaddle before insisting this book was good *for those ages* colored my reading of her piece.
I do think she dismissed the notion of finding that particular book advanced for those particular ages, as if having that opinion meant you weren't "stretching" them enough. But again, when you are making a choice, and a (respected) author uses a title as an example about which you made that choice, it is hard not to take it somewhat personally and react somewhat emotionally. |
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This is how I felt too. I had used another spine the last few years and decided on another one, mainly to avoid the Catholic and other bias issues, and thought I had settled on it, and liked it, and then that.
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Amanda
wife since 6/03, Mom to son 7/04, daughter 2/06, twin sons 6/08 and son 7/11, son 1/2014
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AmandaV
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Mackfam wrote:
Interesting. I can see how your reading of that article would be influenced by the discussion you read. Since I didn't read the yahoo discussion, nor is it public, I won't ask questions about the details of it. And I don't mean to be flippant or disrespectful to the author of the article at all here - I just don't care. I find those kind of details to be trespassing within the great malleability which exists within a Charlotte Mason education. |
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Jen, I was trying to be general in my first question, but was I too specific, and maybe I should take down my remarks other than the article link? I don't want to be posting inappropriately. I really respect her expertise and then questioned my judgement but I don't want to be discussing out of turn.
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Amanda
wife since 6/03, Mom to son 7/04, daughter 2/06, twin sons 6/08 and son 7/11, son 1/2014
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: hard books
