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kristinannie
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to throw out my workbooks. I have been reading so much CM, Ruth Beechick and about unit studies. I am starting to think that I don't "need" workbooks. Of course, I am going to do a solid math program. Other than that, can't we just cover things as we go? Couldn't we just discuss grammar principles, get spelling words (although I might keep AAS because it is fun), learn to write, do copywork, do dictation, do narrations...all from the unit we are studying at that time? It is so hard to get the public school mindset out of my head since it is all I've known. I have been doing workbooks with DS5 and he is just not getting anything out of it. He doesn't retain it and it is boring him to tears. I just can't imagine doing workbooks every day for the next 13 years with DS.
As he gets older and can handle more, can't I just increase what I require from LA on my own? I need to brush up on grammar, but I was an English Lit major and understand how to write really well. I am thinking of getting IEW or Bravewriter or something like that just to get a way to teach writing to my kids and then just make assignments as I see fit.
I know that a lot of you probably do exactly this, but it is just scary to not have "help" in the form of workbooks. What do you think?
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JennGM
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Paradigm shift!!!
I totally agree -- doing the copywork and narration and later dictation will keep all these bases covered. Keep them, but schedule the CM way. Don't schedule the workbooks, and then add on the narration and copywork. You'll burn yourself out.
I say keep the workbooks if you have them for your child to fill in in his spare time and interest (my son liked to do that occasionally), or if there's a crisis requiring a lot of Mom to not be around.
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kristinannie
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JennGM wrote:
Paradigm shift!!!
I totally agree -- doing the copywork and narration and later dictation will keep all these bases covered. Keep them, but schedule the CM way. Don't schedule the workbooks, and then add on the narration and copywork. You'll burn yourself out.
I say keep the workbooks if you have them for your child to fill in in his spare time and interest (my son liked to do that occasionally), or if there's a crisis requiring a lot of Mom to not be around. |
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This makes complete sense to me. I do like his handwriting workbook and his math program, but everything else is like pulling teeth! I think it is a great idea to look through them to see what to focus on at that time. It is a scary thought to just throw away what I am so used to, but honestly I can't see any other way in which my kids will retain info and enjoy school and learning! Thanks for your permission!!!!! 
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JennGM
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I think we view the workbook as the safety net, a way of affirmation. It's something to make the teacher feel like something is being taught and if these pages are done, then I can check that off the list.
But it can often be spoon feeding, rather than allowing the science of relations, and having the child making the connections and relations his own.
I think taking the Charlotte Mason approach is a bit like learning to ride without training wheels. We're going to feel a bit wobbly and without support for a bit, and it's going to seem scary, because it is so different.
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SuzanneG
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JennGM wrote:
| Don't schedule the workbooks, and then add on the narration and copywork. You'll burn yourself out. |
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I agree. If you are going to do copywork, narration, and dictation (later)....you don't need anything else. That is IF......you are NARRATING and doing copywork SLOWLY and with concentrated effort.
There is a lot that goes into the Language ARts part of a CM education....and sometimes I think we are tempted to "short cut" it....and then we aren't getting the benefits of the WHOLE....which then leads us back to the workbooks. We are so used to "taking what works and leaving the rest behind". But, when it comes to this "leap of faith" with the language arts part of CM, I'm starting to think "taking what works..." doesn't work so well.
Narration is part of copywork, and copywork is part of narration. Copywork and Narration become part of Dictation eventually....it's all linked!!!! We CAN skip (pick and choose, of course)....but then we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Then we say, "Oh that CM stuff doesn't work."
Your son is still very young....I wouldn't ask him to do any workbooks unless he really was asking for it. I would focus on reading and narration (informally)....just getting them to TALK ABOUT a story. With very simple mechanical things about writing and working on letter sounds, reading...at his pace.
I want my 5 yo to spend 5-10 REALLY GREAT minutes in some sort of focused "seat work". After that....I want them playing and exploring inside and outside. Lots of great books, living the liturgical year and establishing good habits.
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kristacecilia
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SuzanneG wrote:
| I want my 5 yo to spend 5-10 REALLY GREAT minutes in some sort of focused "seat work". After that....I want them playing and exploring inside and outside. Lots of great books, living the liturgical year and establishing good habits. |
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This. This is basically everything I am expecting from my 5 year old (also a John Paul!) We work with the Little Angel readers for 5 minutes a day, but the rest is nature study, music, art, and lots and lots and lots of read alouds.
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Mackfam
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kristinannie wrote:
| I am starting to think that I don't "need" workbooks. |
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You don't. 
kristinannie wrote:
| As he gets older and can handle more, can't I just increase what I require from LA on my own? |
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Yes! Absolutely, and the progression of this is so enjoyable and SO EFFICIENT as years progress! It remains simple and straightforward without betraying rigor and efficiency!
SuzanneG wrote:
| There is a lot that goes into the Language ARts part of a CM education....and sometimes I think we are tempted to "short cut" it....and then we aren't getting the benefits of the WHOLE....which then leads us back to the workbooks. We are so used to "taking what works and leaving the rest behind". But, when it comes to this "leap of faith" with the language arts part of CM, I'm starting to think "taking what works..." doesn't work so well. |
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I agree so much with this!!
And this....
SuzanneG wrote:
| Narration is part of copywork, and copywork is part of narration. Copywork and Narration become part of Dictation eventually....it's all linked!!!! |
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It is part of this idea of education being a sort of nursery for relationships - all of these simple, yet rigorous, CM language arts principles are CONNECTED and important, but their weight and significance is somewhat veiled in those early years. It's just simple enough that the CHALLENGE is not in implementing the ideas, it's in believing enough in them to let them be...enough. As years progress, the fruits become evident and you begin *see* the benefits of a slow and gentle progression that is made without using a workbook.
A workbook can be quickly quantified - check the page, mark the ones that are incorrect, review, review, review. Stepping away from the workbook means that you will not be able to quantify results in the same way. This is a challenge and sizable stumbling point for many because education is now set up in a way that expects quantifiable results. So we think, "Oh dear...I'll never be able to keep records. How will I measure progress?" It's a part of that paradigm shift that you're just starting to experience and that Jenn speaks of. You CAN keep records, and you CAN see progress, you just won't be able to do so with the same measuring stick that is applied to workbooks, texts, and tests. If you're shifting away from workbooks your tools will need to adjust as well.
SuzanneG wrote:
| We CAN skip (pick and choose, of course)....but then we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Then we say, "Oh that CM stuff doesn't work." |
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Right. You CAN pick and choose, but it is important that if you do, you adjust your expectations and understand that the outcome will not be reflective of those that CM proposed.
JennGM wrote:
I think we view the workbook as the safety net, a way of affirmation. It's something to make the teacher feel like something is being taught and if these pages are done, then I can check that off the list.
But it can often be spoon feeding, rather than allowing the science of relations, and having the child making the connections and relations his own.
I think taking the Charlotte Mason approach is a bit like learning to ride without training wheels. We're going to feel a bit wobbly and without support for a bit, and it's going to seem scary, because it is so different. |
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Exactly!!
SuzanneG wrote:
| I want my 5 yo to spend 5-10 REALLY GREAT minutes in some sort of focused "seat work". After that....I want them playing and exploring inside and outside. Lots of great books, living the liturgical year and establishing good habits. |
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This is a GREAT place to start! At 5, it's all about working on good habits whose value CANNOT be emphasized enough!!! 5-10 minutes of BEST EFFORT is perfect right now!!
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Jen Mackintosh
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kristinannie
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I haven't started formal narration at this point. I will discuss the book we just read. A lot of times, I get an "I don't know" answer though. I don't push it at this age though. If I ask him a couple of open ended questions, he will give answers that indicate that he was listening. Is there a "right" way to direct narration in the beginning to teach the child how to narrate properly? I am still reading CM's books and haven't read much about narration yet. Right now we are focused on learning to write each individual letter properly and are not doing any copywork.
He does do a lot of his reading lesson on a whiteboard with magnetic tiles. He loves to spell words that way and really amazes me with how much he can spell! His math program is completely manipulative based and it works well for us.
I am doing Who Am I? from CHC, but I am not loving it. DS5 begs not to do the "Jesus school stuff" and I don't want him to dislike religion. He likes the crafts in that program so I might just do that more informally (like discussing the topics at dinnertime). The comprehension questions are not helpful to me. They just upset him and I don't think they help him to understand anything. We are loving the St Joseph books and the Children's Catholic Treasure Box books. I usually read those to them at lunchtime.
I am doing MCP Plaid Phonics, but think I am going to just look through it and teach those phonics rules myself. He HATES that workbook. We are doing the 1st grade workbook because the K workbook was too easy for him.
Other than that, we love what we are doing. I am doing a trip around the world where we are spending 1-2 months per continent. We do art and music about once or twice a week. We do science a couple of times a week, plus nature study. While I love the science (RSO Earth and Space), I will not be doing another formal science program next year. I don't think it is necessary at this age. We do tons of nature study and the kids LOVE it. I can't believe how much they can tell people about animals and bugs that live in our yard!
At this point, I think I should have listened to your advice and just concentrated on teaching reading and reading lots and lots of quality books to the kids. It was just SO scary to do that for a brand new homeschooler! It is just comfortable to assign pages in a workbook and add some great read alouds. It is also easier for friends and family to see "progress" and feel OK about us homeschooling. However, I can just see where this is headed and it isn't where any of us want to be. I don't want to be sitting at a table for half of the day doing different workbooks with different kids. Who really remembers any of that stuff anyway? My main goal is teaching the kids HOW to learn and instilling a love of learning in them that will last a lifetime.
Sorry to ramble! Any advice you can offer me is greatly appreciated!
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Mackfam
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kristinannie wrote:
| I haven't started formal narration at this point. I will discuss the book we just read. |
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You don't have to discuss what you read, but you can MODEL a narration if you want to...which is different from discussing the reading or trying to show the main points. Just tell back what you just read in a very simple way (narrating).
kristinannie wrote:
| A lot of times, I get an "I don't know" answer though. I don't push it at this age though. If I ask him a couple of open ended questions, he will give answers that indicate that he was listening. Is there a "right" way to direct narration in the beginning to teach the child how to narrate properly? I am still reading CM's books and haven't read much about narration yet. |
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At 5, narrations aren't necessary at all yet, and I wouldn't ask for them. CM began narrations at age 6.
With a new narrator, we ease into narrations very gently. I only ask for one a day at first, and the narration comes from a VERY short reading. Before I start narrating, I model narrations by narrating back a book we just read in a very simple way. I might narrate in 1 - 3 sentences what we just read, and then I might ask if the child had a favorite part they want to tell me about. No? No problem - I don't push right now. But, I do find that a very easy, gentle, informal introduction to narrating makes it a very natural transition for the child. If I call attention to it: call it narrating, model a very complicated narration with outline and details, it intimidates and overwhelms the child and scares them off. So....all that to recommend a very gentle, easing into narration. Model simply, and if your beginning narrator gives you 1 - 2 sentence narrations, call it good and move on. DON'T feel like you have to stretch out a beginning narration by asking questions in order to invite the child to illustrate plot, characters, conflict, etc. That will come very naturally as narrations progress.
kristinannie wrote:
| Right now we are focused on learning to write each individual letter properly and are not doing any copywork. |
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That sounds EXACTLY right! Spend 5 minutes or so writing a letter V-E-R-Y---S-L-O-W-L-Y (you model, he writes). Remember, the goal is best effort and ending the lesson BEFORE a child is frustrated or overwhelmed.
kristinannie wrote:
| He does do a lot of his reading lesson on a whiteboard with magnetic tiles. |
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Perfect!
kristinannie wrote:
| I am doing Who Am I? from CHC, but I am not loving it. |
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It IS a very good program, as is the Faith and Life series, but my children don't enjoy that approach either. We've found a very comfortable approach which works well for us. It consists of reading from beautiful, rich living books which express the joy and beauty of our faith as well as the liturgical year. We don't do much else with these books - we just read. There are SO MANY great books like this for littles. We may craft sometimes, but this usually happens as a natural extension here, not as something we plan ahead of time. We do make use of the Baltimore Catechism, and we work on Catechism questions starting in 1st grade, spending ONLY 5 minutes on 3 - 6 questions/day. It's very simple - I ask a question, the child gets as far as they can with the answer. If they pause or stumble on a word, I prompt with the answer. No fussing, or discussing - just insert the next word or two and look to them to see if they can continue from there. And we do that for 5 minutes and as far as that takes us. I do this for two reasons:
1) Baltimore Catechism questions/answers are so easily memorized by young children!
2) Baltimore Catechism questions/answers form a skeleton of basic knowledge (this is built over the years as the child memorizes their Baltimore Catechism). It is NOT the sum total of our religion instruction, but it does provide a framework which is helpful and useful. My older children refer back to this framework with ease. The Baltimore Catechism questions/answers they memorized while young act as a springboard for them - they encounter an idea, apply it to the framework of the Catechism they have memorized, form another question or place their question within a context, and move on to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (or other Church sources) to research and answer their question or shed more light.
Anyway, I wanted to provide a context for saying that we memorize the Baltimore Catechism starting in 1st grade. Different people feel differently about memorizing Catechism questions and there is certainly not a right or wrong answer here - this is just our approach.
kristinannie wrote:
| At this point, I think I should have listened to your advice and just concentrated on teaching reading and reading lots and lots of quality books to the kids. |
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No problem - he's 5!!! It's SUPER EASY to make a course correction at this point!!
kristinannie wrote:
| It was just SO scary to do that for a brand new homeschooler! |
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It sure is! Don't discount the value of your time spent so far - whether you've discovered something wonderful and lovely, or something you'd like to leave behind. You've learned some important things!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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ekbell
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I would definitely quit all but the crafts in Who Am I? if he dislikes the rest as our Faith is too important to spoil by using disagreeable materials. My children have had widely varied responses to that book and I've used it appropriately (my oldest liked all but the worksheets, my second disliked it so we just read bible and saint stories instead, my third child thought it was OK long as I only asked her about the main concepts and not details, however she loved the worksheets....)
At his age enjoyment of learning is most important and my policy is to quit using anything the child doesn't enjoy as there's tons of alternatives for everything. Some of my five year olds have loved crafts and workbooks (not that workbooks were ever more then ten minutes or so of work) some of my children hated doing anything that resembled seatwork and I've found that at that age it doesn't matter that much. The child who didn't start writing (not even copywork) until age seven (before that everything was done orally) actually has the nicest handwriting at the moment.
BTW I found that the relatives and other onlookers (even the skeptical ones) are more impressed by a well spoken child who knows a fair amount about the world around them then any amount of workbook work.
This has proven true of my facilitators as well (the person assigned by our local board of education to ensure that children over six are learning).
They've all been more impressed by projects, crafts, hands-on materials and what the children are excited by then any workbook.
To tell the truth a facilitator has yet to even ask to flip through any of our workbooks to check progress. Looking through a book of centuries or a nicely done up narration (with younger children it's been mommy typed up - child illustrated ones often as not) yes, workbooks no.
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lapazfarm
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Would it reassure you to hear that my almost 16yo son has never done a workbook and yet he reads and writes beautifully, loves science and nature, is solid in his faith, and enjoys a good history story as well?
The only "workbooky" thing he has ever done is math, and that only for a few years. (He has been unschooled for the majority of his life, with only a few excursions into more formal, CM-type methods.)
My 9yo daughter, who has dyslexia, also does no workbooks and she is progressing beautifully using purely Charlotte Mason methods.
So, from my experience leaving workbooks behind definitely can be done!
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Grace&Chaos
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kristinannie wrote:
| I know that a lot of you probably do exactly this, but it is just scary to not have "help" in the form of workbooks. What do you think? |
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You've gotten great insight on this, just wanted to add that I still feel a little self conscious knowing that we've gotten rid of about 90% (the small % are math related) of them compared to when we started 4 yrs. ago. But then, I read my oldest dd's writing, hear my other dd's narrations and just see/feel the enthusiasm the boys have and the jitters go away .
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kristinannie
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Grace&Chaos wrote:
You've gotten great insight on this, just wanted to add that I still feel a little self conscious knowing that we've gotten rid of about 90% (the small % are math related) of them compared to when we started 4 yrs. ago. But then, I read my oldest dd's writing, hear my other dd's narrations and just see/feel the enthusiasm the boys have and the jitters go away . |
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This is really the goal. My goals for educating my children are mostly as follows:
I want to prepare them for life (I would like them to know why the Church believes the way she does so that they can make good decisions in life since this is what I was missing in my life)
I want to prepare them for college (I want them to be academically ready to succeed in college and in life)
I want them to love learning and continue to learn throughout their lives
I don't think any of these desires for my kids requires workbooks. This morning school was different. We skipped Who Am I? which just made the whole morning flow more smoothly. We did math and handwriting and we read lots of great stories. This was the best day of school we have ever had. After playtime outside, we are going to do music class (Making Music Praying Twice) and play Chutes and Ladders with phonics cards. The kids will learn a lot and the day will be so much smoother. I usually skip music or art or science because I am just so tired of all the whining during the workbooks and the kids are just done for the day.
Thanks to everyone for all the advice! I would love to hear any more advice you can offer. I know that the initial jump will be scary and I will get nervous from time to time, but I truly feel that this is the best path for our family. Thanks for your support! I may send my husband to talk to you if he freaks out!
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kristacecilia
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Kristinannie,
It's funny because when I was doing a workbook based program with my kids I felt the same way. It was all the patience I had to get through the 'important' stuff- reading, handwriting, religion, and math. We rarely ever did the beautiful things- art, music, science, history/geography- because we were too burnt out and frustrated.
In retrospect, and what I do now, is all those other things first. We spend most of the day doing art, music, history, nature study, reading lots of literature... the rest of it- handwriting, reading, math, and religion- sort of flow out of that. It is all built in and so seamless, it's really lovely and so much more fun.
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God bless,
Krista
Wife to a great guy, mom to two boys ('04, '06) and three girls ('08, '10, '12!)
I blog at http://kristacecilia.wordpress.com/
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kristinannie
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Thanks so much for giving me your permission to do what I really want to do as far as schooling my kids! I was tired today since I was in the ER all night and didn't feel like doing any school at all. After lunch, I decided to do a little history/geography. We actually ended up doing over 90 minutes of mapwork, reading aloud, coloring and discussing animals (we are doing Northeastern US). The kids were so involved and it was a lot of fun. When I just put the kids down for their nap, John Paul said, "Mommy, I'm so glad we didn't do school today." 
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herdingkittens
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kristacecilia wrote:
Kristinannie,
It's funny because when I was doing a workbook based program with my kids I felt the same way. It was all the patience I had to get through the 'important' stuff- reading, handwriting, religion, and math. We rarely ever did the beautiful things- art, music, science, history/geography- because we were too burnt out and frustrated.
In retrospect, and what I do now, is all those other things first. We spend most of the day doing art, music, history, nature study, reading lots of literature... the rest of it- handwriting, reading, math, and religion- sort of flow out of that. It is all built in and so seamless, it's really lovely and so much more fun. |
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AUGH!!! This conversation is tugging at my heart!!! Thank you for posting this. I have been discovering that working on the "fun stuff" first leaves me to actually have the energy to do them (after lunch, I am pretty much useless.... ). Now, I am motivated to make that THE WAY we do things. That those would be the point of interest - the most important, over the workbooks (though we use very few). Really, the kids can do so much of that workbook stuff while waiting for me to nurse the baby down to sleep, in the car, waiting at ballet lessons for their siblings classes, etc. Why I am putting them at the top of my day?!?!
Thank you for the inspiration! kristacecilia, the way you worded that was like a bucket of ice over my head! Thank you thank you. 
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kristinannie
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herdingkittens wrote:
AUGH!!! This conversation is tugging at my heart!!! Thank you for posting this. I have been discovering that working on the "fun stuff" first leaves me to actually have the energy to do them (after lunch, I am pretty much useless.... ). Now, I am motivated to make that THE WAY we do things. That those would be the point of interest - the most important, over the workbooks (though we use very few). Really, the kids can do so much of that workbook stuff while waiting for me to nurse the baby down to sleep, in the car, waiting at ballet lessons for their siblings classes, etc. Why I am putting them at the top of my day?!?!
Thank you for the inspiration! kristacecilia, the way you worded that was like a bucket of ice over my head! Thank you thank you. |
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That is such a great way to state it. These workbooks should not be the "top of our days." That makes it appear like these things are the most important part of the day. Honestly, they have been the most important part because those are the only things we get to a lot of days. That is such a great idea to do the workbooks in the car or while we are waiting! You are a genius!
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herdingkittens
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| Posted: July 07 2011 at 9:12pm | IP Logged
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kristinannie wrote:
That is such a great way to state it. These workbooks should not be the "top of our days." That makes it appear like these things are the most important part of the day. Honestly, they have been the most important part because those are the only things we get to a lot of days. That is such a great idea to do the workbooks in the car or while we are waiting! You are a genius!
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This group of ladies is genius!! I cannot begin to tell you how all you ladies have helped to shape our learning experience. My children thank you! 
Yes, kristinannie, I agree! It does place that kind of importance on workbooks. Now, math, is still going to be near the top of the day, but boy, I am looking forward to playing first from now on!
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Dove
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| Posted: July 12 2011 at 6:42pm | IP Logged
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I think that any program that is hated by the student is the wrong one for that student. Don't be afraid to dump a workbook in favor of teaching the material differently and in a way that you and your child enjoy.
It is one of the great things about home school: that we can dump any program that is not serving our needs properly or is miserable to use.
You have gotten great advice here, I just wanted to add my $.02 worth.
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NMMountainMom
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| Posted: Aug 04 2011 at 1:47pm | IP Logged
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This thread has been great for me! I just spent $400 on curriculum materials after I chickened out thinking about going forward with a more relaxed approach. I was feeling a great deal of peace and then all of the sudden I went on a workbook spending spree. I love the idea here to do the "fun stuff" first and then do workbooks in the car, while waiting, etc. Wonderful advice!
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Danielle, making it work (some days better than others) with five boys, a family business and homeschooling.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: I think I need permission.....
