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Loren
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| Posted: March 21 2006 at 12:01pm | IP Logged
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I could use some help figuring out the differences in Catholic curricula. We started our HS journey with Five in a Row, but my older boys have grown out of the books without actually getting much out of the program.
Now my DH is concerned that they will not be ready for high school, and I have to admit that his fears seem justified. Neither my fifth nor sixth grader can write a complete paragraph, their spelling is atrocious, and they are behind in math. We have not done much in the way of history or science, so I'm sure they are behind there as well.
My DH wants us to move toward doing "school at home" but I really like the relaxed aspect of homeschooling. Of course, if I keep it relaxed, they won't learn a whole lot.
My problem is keeing us on track. I have a schedule, but no clear lesson plans and no particular goal in mind each day. It is so easy for me to brush aside our scholarly endeavors to do something fun. I could really use a boss to keep me in line.
In looking at some of the curricula out there, I see that some will provide me with a general idea and some will give me a schedule that I need to follow. Some of them will accommodate a child who is at several different grade levels and some that stick with one particular grade level.
There is so much information to sift through from all the different sites, and they don't all present the information that I'm looking for in the same way. So I decided to check with people who are using these programs, or none at all, to avail myself of your wisdom.
Please help me figure it out. What programs do you like and why? Also, an idea of the total cost would help since I've only noticed enrollment or tuition costs, which don't count materials.
Thanks.
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: March 21 2006 at 2:39pm | IP Logged
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Hi there.
If they are 5th and 6th grade right now, I'd say that they aren't too behind that you can't catch up. And you may be surprised to discover that they have created more "hooks" for science and history than you are aware of.
First, you should know my bias.  I am of the "better late than early" philosophy. I tend to look at school suggestions and almost always think "this would be better if the child were one year older before beginning it." At least until the child is 13, anyway.
Based on what you have said, I'd look at CHC and Mater Amabilis (www.materamabilis.com). CHC would be a real bargain for you since its one volume for both your children (around 55 dollars, I think). For the subjects that look stuffy or boring to you, I'd substitute some of Mater Amabilis' suggestions (especially for science).
If they are only one grade apart, I'd pick one level for them to do together. No sense making things more complicated than necessary. Maybe start with American History (5th grade suggestions)? The text CHC recommends for 6th grade is kind of boring, imho.
And since they are not entirely used to writing, I'd start with Intermediate Language Lessons, by Emma Serl. This little nonconsumeable book is less than 20 bucks for 4th-6th grade language arts. Most don't use it past the 5th grade, but I think its great in 6th grade too, along with something like Easy Grammar 5/6. After that, I like Lingua Mater for 7th-8th grade. I like CHC's spellers a lot, in spite of the fact they are workbooks.
I'd add in lots of good literature for them to read on their own, and read alouds, too. I think the best resources for literature suggestions are Mater Amabilis, Emmanuel books, Bethelehem books, and www.readingyourwaythroughhistory.com.
As for following a plan, based on what you've said, I think you'd likely be miserable with a more formal program. I know a mom doing Seton 6th grade and they can't ever take a day off or they get terribly behind. I'm thinking you could use CHC's suggested schedule and modify it by adding in MA's ideas where you like it (MA usually tells you how much to read per 12 weeks) and whatever activities your kids are involved in. CHC sells a beautiful planner you can use with the Middle School Lesson Plans (or any other plans for that matter) for under 10 bucks. Since your boys are so close in age, you probably wouldn't need more than one. Don't let any planner make you into a slave. But having a plan for the year can really help. I usually write out my plans over the summer, in pencil, and then follow them with slight modifications throughout the year. I usually finish about 85% of what I have planned, and I consider that a successful year. 
Anyway, that's what I'd do.
Hope this helps!
~Books
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lapazfarm
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I agree with Books 100%. It's not what I do, but it sounds like just exactly what you are looking for. CHC is child-friendly and semi-relaxed, yet very thorough. The science, though...  and I despise saxon math.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Cheryl
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| Posted: March 21 2006 at 6:13pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
| CHC is child-friendly and semi-relaxed, yet very thorough. The science, though... and I despise saxon math. |
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Have any of you used CHC's 2nd grade science books? What did you think of them? While I'm asking about CHC...
how about their PE book & CD?
Map skills??
Family Journal?
And have you used MCP Math? Is it better than Saxon?
__________________
Cheryl
Wife to Bob ('97)
Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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Loren
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| Posted: March 21 2006 at 9:17pm | IP Logged
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Thanks for the encouragement. The only thing about my relaxed stance is that both my dh and I feel like the boys aren'tgetting a thorough education. That's why I said I need a boss.
If I have a deadline and someone waiting for my product, I work better. I am a procrastinator extraordinaire. (I even wrote a paper in highschool called "The Art of Procrastination.") If something doesn't absolutely have to be done by a certain time, it isn't done. This is why I want information on the curricula that do have expectations of both the students and their parents.
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Willa
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| Posted: March 21 2006 at 11:03pm | IP Logged
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Loren, which programs have you been considering? Are you interested in enrolling in a program, or do you think following a syllabus would be enough to keep you accountable?
I am a procrastinator too. That means that I like having some deadlines so time doesn't simply slip out of my grasp, but I find I resist ones that are imposed from outside. Well, let me rephrase that. I can live with deadlines that are work-related or imposed by DH, because I feel like I'm under authority with those. But when it comes to educating my kids. I can't convince myself that someone else, not me or DH, is an authority over my homeschool [;). So correspondence-school accountability doesn't work for me.
I have used syllabi from various programs, like Kolbe Academy and MODG, but I usually adapt them for myself.
My personal stance is very similar to Bookswithteas':
Quote:
| If they are 5th and 6th grade right now, I'd say that they aren't too behind that you can't catch up. And you may be surprised to discover that they have created more "hooks" for science and history than you are aware of....I am of the "better late than early" philosophy. I tend to look at school suggestions and almost always think "this would be better if the child were one year older before beginning it." At least until the child is 13, anyway. |
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So I personally wouldn't be too worried about your kids' seeming educational gaps. If you have a talent for "relaxed" then realize it IS a talent; you can make a course correction without completely reversing yourself. In fact, that's what we all have to do IMO; I made a course correction towards relaxation this year because I felt we had gotten too structured and were losing some of the benefits of more natural learning.
My kids are enrolled in Kolbe Academy; we use it as an "umbrella" and for the syllabi, but I don't usually send in quarterly reports or grades. Kolbe has the philosophy that the parent is the expert and so their policy is only to give the amount of help and support that the parents need, and no more. I know many "real learners" see Kolbe as quite textbooky and too structured, but it works for us because of that "subsidiarity" philosophy. It might burn out another mom who felt she had to stick strictly with their course materials and lesson plans.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: March 22 2006 at 6:30am | IP Logged
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Loren wrote:
This is why I want information on the curricula that do have expectations of both the students and their parents. |
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The only outside authority that I have tried is Mother of Divine Grace. I had this idea that it was more similar to CM and that I could work with it for the benefits of having a consultant. I was panicking because my ds was going to be jr. high aged in a year and I was afraid I couldn't do it all on my own. I wanted someone to tell me what to do. I was scared.
I lasted a whole 12 weeks with them before I was on the phone with several staff members trying to make changes to fit my son better. Finally, they very kindly told me that "their program is quite expensive for someone who already knows what she wants to do." 
I didn't realize that I knew what I wanted to do until I was already signed up. I was *miserable* working under someone else's authority. That's when I realized I was like Willa...I can't convince myself that anyone but God, dh and I know what's best for our homeschool.
I know lots of other families who use MODG very happily and love having a consultant. But most of them really believe in the Classical Education methodology. I like the aspects of classical education that mesh with CM, but I have a really hard time with some of their recommendations for young children. I do NOT recommend them unless you are sold on that particular method in all of its aspects, because they don't like changes that are not within their methodology.
Other possibilities for a little bit of structure might be something like Clonlara, I guess? But I don't know much about that.
~Books
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: March 22 2006 at 6:45am | IP Logged
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Cheryl wrote:
Have any of you used CHC's 2nd grade science books? What did you think of them? While I'm asking about CHC...
how about their PE book & CD?
Map skills??
Family Journal?
And have you used MCP Math? Is it better than Saxon? |
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A few weeks ago I picked up Catholic Stories from Science and Easy As 1, 2, 3 used and quickly browsed them. I like them...but I wouldn't recommend using them exclusively. They need lots of picture books and nature study to make them come alive.
The map skills book does NOT need to be repeated year after year, imho. I bought the last one for my 6th grader to make sure he understood how to read maps...he managed to learn most of it without ever using a skills workbook, with a few gaps the workbook has fixed. I wouldn't recommend them under 5th grade.
I like the Family Journal book a lot. Its lovely.
Saxon is horrid unless it fits your child's learning style. I have one child who seems to do very well with Saxon as long as its "one level below." So that's what he's doing. He also does well with MUS, but the local hs math teacher uses Saxon so we are motivated to keep him in that since he likes that teacher very much (and since I have no desire to teach high school math ).
I have only used MCP for K...its the most gentle workbook program out there for that age group, and my slow K-er is doing fine with it. We will move to Math U See Primer for 1st grade, along with some living math books. My 3rd grader is using MUS Beta (after using an accelerated math workbook that was making her hate math) right now and its going very well. She loves math again.  She will move to Gamma in the Fall.
The thing I like the most about MUS is that you can finish it within a year without doing math 5 days a week and there is still time to include living math books. I have this dumb compulsion to finish a math book a year...mostly because its just not my strong point so I am more concerned about gaps. My kids like the dvd's and don't complain about math anymore.  So I guess I'd only recommend MCP for K.
~Books
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kristina
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| Posted: March 22 2006 at 12:31pm | IP Logged
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Cheryl wrote:
Have any of you used CHC's 2nd grade science books? What did you think of them? While I'm asking about CHC...
how about their PE book & CD?
Map skills??
Family Journal?
And have you used MCP Math? Is it better than Saxon? |
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Dear Cheryl,
We use CHC as our spine. The boys enjoy doing the map skills, but then again, our guys like workbooks , I can only figure it is the sense of accomplishment they receive from finishing a page and being done with it so they can do what they really want - run around and be boys!
We have not tried MCP or Saxon For math as we started with Right Start and switched to Math-U-See. It was a much better fit when we had a newborn (love the dvd's! - I admit, Mr. Demme explains things so much more clearly and concisely than me!). Unless, I have my facts mixed up, Mr. Demme was formerly with Saxon, until he created Math-U-See. Our children are learning very well with Math-U-See. Works for us, so far.
For 2nd grade science, we use the CHC Catholic Stories from science as a lovely read aloud. It complements our eclectic science program nicely.
When I say eclectic, I mean.. science videos from the library, fun experiment books for kids and lots of science readers. We do not let the children have free reign of the television, but sometimes I record a Magic School Bus or Stanley show for them. My husband is often commenting about how they know way more than we ever did at their age - usually after they have given him an impromptu narration of where Stanley went in his "great big book of everything' or what happened on the Magic School Bus.
I do have Easy as 1-2-3 and the Everyday Science Sourcebook, but honestly I do not use them very often. The Sourcebook is too much of a textbook for a second grader, at least for my guys. It even looks boring sitting on the shelf .
I just ordered the Family Journal, and we have not tried their P.E. materials. FWIW, Our 3rd grader really likes his Behold and See Science.
Blessings,
__________________
kristina
yesterthoughts
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ALmom
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| Posted: March 22 2006 at 4:22pm | IP Logged
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I am a mom who wanted some accountability - but I wanted someone to give me just the support I needed and not expect me to jump through hoops in order to get it.
I have been very pleased with Kolbe as the "I'm not sure what to call them", because - like Willa, I don't really bind myself to quarterly reports or anything else but use the lesson plans as a starting point, modify the plans to suit us and then try to stay the course with occassional support from Kolbe (we are enrolled with them but they know that I have my local cover school for transcripts etc. which is way I send in only what I want their help with), especially in review of papers (which do not have to be topics on their lesson plans). I mix CHC and Kolbe plans along with my own ideas.
You asked about CHC 2nd grade science. I didn't care for the Science 1 2 3 as I just didn't have enough to pull something together and didn't have the time to get it together (ie science got neglected). However, we loved their stories from science. I would suggest getting the 3rd grade science, Behold and Sea and using it over 2 or more years with lots of time to pursue tangents and do additional experiments. You can also read the stories from science. I also like their 4th grade science but don't care much for the others.
We have the map skills workbooks and have them around for whomever cares to do them - but I don't really care one way or another. I don't worry a lot about history in the younger grades - other than having lots of good easy reading history stories (ie like what is available in Emmanuel Books and Bethlehem Books) and then let them do a more traditional history (modified with lots of reading) around 5th grade. I do use the grammar workbooks for all my dc through 5th grade or so and the spelling for the one child that is a visual speller (I use a different program for the dc with visual memory difficulties). I have used MCP, Math Their Way (Addison Wesley), Saxon, MUS and now Singapore math. It is easy to substitute whatever math you like in whatever lesson plan because it is simply going through the book in some sequence. I typically set what is a reasonable amount of time to spend on math and don't worry where we get as long as we are steadily making progress. If we get stumped, I pull out whatever I have to help solidify the concept - game, another text, drill, real-life applications like cooking, building, measuring, etc. I prefer Singapore in the younger grades, have my 5th and 8th grader using Saxon (one of them loves Saxon and asked to stay with it, the other I may consider Jacobs for high school (Kolbe now has plans for this as well as Saxon).
We use Kolbe science in the years that we don't care for CHC. I generally don't worry excessively until upper middle school - and then I want to make sure the dc have begun or I begin to insist on some writing in paragraphs, etc in content areas like history, literature. My highschoolers use modified Kolbe and are enrolled though I don't send in quarterly reports). My 5th - 8th(only the 8th grader is enrolled - but I don't do quarterly reports) graders use a mix of CHC and Kolbe (all modified) and my youngers use CHC (modified). I have found that specific lesson plans really help me keep focused and the dc too. My dc know that we discuss anything that isn't working and come up with a plan (for instance our 8th grader just couldn't get inspired by either CHC or Kolbe history so we chose a book, she is taking notes and reading in related areas - we discuss it periodically and that is good enough for me as I know the child is retaining the material and actually learning something). I also am not a slave to the schedule but we know where we are headed. So for instance, our 5th grader seems mostly on track except that we have not done tons of writing - but we are all content that we have made significant progress as he is about to finish a lengthy story - first thing he ever wrote which is coherant. He is working diligently through a spelling program (biggest weakness) and though we are not where I hoped to be, we are very much improved and will keep plugging till we have a reasonable level of spelling. Our 8th grader is approximately at 2nd quarter in everything Kolbe we are doing - but what she has learned, she has retained. We will call the year over in most subjects of strength just as soon as the official school year is over. She requested that we continue with math and I will insist on finishing science and history (mostly because these have been seriously neglected over the years with this particular child and she will be entering high school and needs to have the background) but I will be able to discuss, and make it more interesting and dad is setting up experiments to go with the science (which is admittedly a chore with virtual neglect in the area until 8th grade). We are not trying to make a rocket scientist out of her, this obviously is NOT her field - but she should be reasonably familiar with simple concepts in an 8th grade physical science text so this is not all foreign when she tries to do high school science. If it gets to be too much, we always have the option of doing the new Kolbe physical science text as her first high school science - so we have some flexibility.
I really have found Kolbe helpful as a sounding board and because I can have dc hand in some papers to them for comment. My reluctant writers seem to respond to this better than deadline from mom and it prevents us all from avoiding our weakest areas just because we can all procrastinate. They now have a new program where they will do more if you desire(for a fee) - 15 papers graded/commented on per quarter. I really like that you are not restricted to their topics or plans for comments on compositions - so for instance I can assign whatever books I want in areas and if they write an essay, I can still get Kolbe feedback. Yet, it is simply their comments as I am free to do what I want with it - even ignoring it if I so desire.
I am not a classical education person though I do have leanings toward how they describe the Ignatian philosophy of education. I want my dc to have time to browse, learn from whatever inspires them etc. while I am not organized, disciplined or relaxed enough to just trust to whatever happens - and I have seen the result of our haphazard approach (no science, history is hit or miss depending on whether or not the child loves reading soon enough to develop the background, etc. and a sudden awareness of the huge discrepency in mental and eye-hand because I never forced certain skills- usually hits in about 5th grade when I notice that child is not writing with even the barest of skills - ie no punctuation or capitalization and then it is catch up time - and they have caught up but I have found it works better for us to have a bit more structure, though not overly time-consuming to cover the bases - kwim). (Perhaps because there are so many dc and a lot of vision problems - but I really need some plans but make it clear to myself and dc that these are target goals (and we work on picking the parts of our plans together) but we are not slaves to them and do what we need to do. My biggest mantra is "are you learning something new?" If the children are learning, then we are all happy. Some of my dc are very blunt and tell me (one cannot be rushed at all), others need more traditional spot checking in their least favorite subject areas to make sure the learning does occur and is retained over time. I try to tailor what we do to the individual child.
I hope this helps you see how our one family pulls what is out there. It took me a while to figure out what it was that I really needed - a kind of trial and error proecess. Having a program that I was locked into drove us all nuts because when I saw my dc failing to learn, I was locked into the program. Once I realized that I could do what I wanted and still get support, I really found what worked for us. I needed support in the writing, papers and someone to keep us focused in science and history instead of hit or miss. I can really manage everything else until Advanced Math. Languages in high school are a challenge for us - so now I'm looking into ISLAS - if we can afford it. I am also looking at dual enrollment at the high school level for upper level maths and lab sciences. (community college for non science inclined and university for the science folks).
This whole thing becomes a real patchwork - and so depends on what the mom - teacher needs coupled with what works for the child. Hope this helps.
Janet
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Loren
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| Posted: March 22 2006 at 6:33pm | IP Logged
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There is so much information to wade through. Sometimes I think it would be easier to just send them to school.
The I realize that I don't want to send them to school. There is so much junk in the schools that I want to protect them from and there is so much relationship building I want to do at home. And God never told us it would be easy to follow His call.
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Willa
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Loren,
I bet you are doing better than you think.
Sometimes it helps to pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and counsel when trying to make a major educational decision. I prayed to Our Holy Mother when I was trying to get the courage to agree to pulling my kids out of school a looong time ago. I asked her to step in and be the mother I knew I'd fail to be if I did homeschool. We have definitely NEEDED that fallback many times.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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TracyQ
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| Posted: March 23 2006 at 12:21pm | IP Logged
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Loren,
I'm sorry to be writing this in a hurry. We're on our way out to gym with our homeschooling group. But I wanted to encourage you, and tell you I'm lifting you up in prayer.Choosing curriculum can be so difficult sometimes.
I don't think you have to give up your relaxed method of homeschooling exactly. You may not be able to be quite so relaxed, but there are wonderful curriculums that kids can learn a ton from that are set up for you to follow, but still keep that literature based approach.
There's a newer curriculum I've seen online that I really love the look of. It's kind of like Sonlight, but I love the way the Language Arts fits so nicely with the rest of the subjects. It's Winterpromise
I think you just need to pray, and find what will work great for you and your family. Another curriculum I have loved to begin to teach kids more independent learning, and research too is Trisms. Trisms
There are some wonderful curriculums out there that are still in line with much of our literature based learning philosophy, but is meant more for our older students.
I hope this helps some!
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Curriculum help
