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teachingmyown
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| Posted: July 23 2009 at 3:37pm | IP Logged
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I am talking both about history and literature. I have been busy reading LCC and looking at Kolbe's website and Ambleside Online.
LCC would have me doing ancient history throughout the years alongside more modern history. I like this approach. Looking at Kolbe's 9th and 10th grade history and literature selections, I am overwhelmed by how much there is in the Greek and Roman history/literature. AO has the child read Plutarch's Lives over the years and I think that is it. (I was reading their site late last night, so I am sure I missed some things.)
So, how much is enough? If I want my child to be "classically" educated, to have familiarity with the history and literature, to be able to understand references found within other works of literature, etc., what would be the minimum exposure?
I never learned any of this. I wish I at least had more of a background and familiarity with ancient writings and history.
Just wondering.... 
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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LeeAnn
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| Posted: July 23 2009 at 7:51pm | IP Logged
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Are you using LCC 1st or 2nd edition? The first edition has two history tracks, studying ancients and modern history every year. The second edition has only one history track with basically US history covered in middle school and some US history readings in grade 12.
As to what is the bare minimum to be classically educated--that is really tough to answer without knowing to whose definition of classical education you subscribe. Andrew Campbell's? Cheryl Lowe's? Susan Wise Bauer's? William Michael's? They are all different.
Is your goal to have general familiarity with classical themes in literature and knowledge of ancient history? Or is it to be able to read the classics in the original languages? They are very different goals.
If I were going to design a spectrum, I would put probably SWB's TWTM at the 'classical lite' end and William Michael's CLAA at the end labeled 'seriously classical' opposite. Someone should design one of those facebook quizzes on this topic: What kind of Classical Homeschooler are You? 
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: July 23 2009 at 10:30pm | IP Logged
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Okay, I just got the second edition of LCC, but obviously didn't look closely enough to notice that change. I better go check it out. That is interesting that he changed that, because I thought the concurrent study of ancient and modern made so much sense. Hmmm...
I guess I would say I subscribe to Andrew Campbell's definition, somewhere between "lite" and "serious"?
I would have to evaluate my goals for each child individually. My 13 yr old thinks it would be very cool to read classics in the original languages. I don't know if the next one down would want to get to that level. But we haven't even started learning Latin yet so who knows? I do think that for all of my children I want them to at least have a familiarity with the themes and history.
Does that help you give me a bare minimum? Can you tell I need a bit of hand-holding here? 
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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LeeAnn
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| Posted: July 23 2009 at 11:51pm | IP Logged
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*your hand is now being held*
Andrew Campbell's idea of classical education, as presented in LCC, is just a step down from CLAA's (William Michael's online school) as far as rigor in classical studies goes. At least I think so, I haven't seen the entire scope and sequence of what CLAA will be offering yet.
That being said, what LCC suggests in high school is nearly a mini university education in the difficulty and scope of the readings for history, literature, religion and philosophy, not to mention the level of Latin and Greek that should be achieved by then to comprehend all that.
Have you looked at Ch. 16 "In Medias Res: Adapting the Curriculum for Older Beginners and Adults" yet? He makes specific recommendations for students beginning classical studies as late as 9th or 11th grade. I would take that chapter as what LCC would call the bare minimum.
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:00am | IP Logged
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LeeAnn wrote:
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Molly~ You are so lucky!!! LeeAnn is a gem....hand-holding, snack-coordinating, used curriculum sales....  She does it all! 
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LeeAnn
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| Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:02am | IP Logged
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For instance, here is the suggested Literature readings for a student beginning classical studies in 11th grade:
11th grade
The Iliad
A selection of Greek dramas (Oresteia, Oedipus the King, The Bacchae)
Beowulf
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
two or three selections from Canterbury Tales
12th grade
three or four of Shakespeare's plays
a small selection of 19th C. English and American poetry
one or two of the shorter 19th C. novels
two or three American short stories (chosen from the 6th/7th grade literature list in LCC)
for History:
A Short History of the World by Roberts
Famous Men of Greece, FM of Rome, etc.
Not a very daunting list compared to the full four-year program, partly because it presumes the student will also be beginning Latin/Greek study at the same time and therefore won't have the reading knowledge to delve into any of the originals. Your 13yo is old enough to just jump into Henle First Year, which is what LCC recommends for the older beginner.
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LeeAnn
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| Posted: July 24 2009 at 12:03am | IP Logged
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SuzanneG wrote:
LeeAnn wrote:
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Molly~ You are so lucky!!! LeeAnn is a gem....hand-holding, snack-coordinating, used curriculum sales.... She does it all! |
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Oh, Suzanne!
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: July 24 2009 at 9:52am | IP Logged
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Here are the history and literature selections for Kolbe for 9th and 10th. It seems like a lot and the price tag with all the study guides is roughly $200/yr. So, this is what really got me wondering how much is *enough*.
Kolbe History/lit 9th
An Odyssey in Rhetoric
Iliad
Odyssey
Orestrian trilogy
Theban plays
Classical Lit Criticism
Plato
Hist of Pelopessian wars
Persian Expedition
The Histories
Rise and Fall of Athens
Kolbe Hist/Literature 10th
In Cicero's footsteps
History of the Church
Early Christian Writers
Confessions
City of God
The Aeneid
Makers of Rome
Fall of Roman Empire
Meditations
Roman Reader
Coriolanus
Antony and Cleopatra
Julius Caesar
Early History of Rome
Annals of Imperial Rome
The war with Hannibal
I am also looking ahead as I plan for my 6th, two 4th and my little ones. This is really a new idea for me, so I am trying to get a handle on how it looks starting at different points.
Obviously, I need to sit down and read LCC, 2nd ed. more thoroughly, but I do prefer getting my hand held.
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: July 24 2009 at 2:33pm | IP Logged
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Wow, Molly. I've been poking around some of the classical ideas (a rabbit trail from my Gatto book. ) Those Kolbe lists are *intense*!
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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teachingmyown
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So, what does Gatto say? I don't have his latest book.
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Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: July 25 2009 at 7:23am | IP Logged
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He doesn't really say anything specifically about classical education, at least that I've seen so far. But I do get the impression that real works of literature, even for children we often consider too young, are his preference for study time. Otoh, I don't think he'd advocate for desk time all day long. My own interpretation of his preferences at the moment is sort of like the Moore's formula??? Its got me thinking a lot about the quality of literature, but in a new way. Its not just about avoiding twaddle, but I am reconsidering the ages at which a child might enjoy more grown up works. He says that in American schools, 5th graders used to read Shakespeare et al, for instance.
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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stellamaris
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I once read that "history is for old men", and there is quite a lot of truth in that statement. It is important to remember that what we are doing in the high school years is providing a foundation for life-long learning, not trying to cram every possible bit of knowledge into our hapless students' heads. It is crucial that students have a general knowledge of the flow of history, a few key dates to "hang" future knowledge on, a basic level of familiarity with the "great ideas" of the Great Conversation, and some exposure to the literary style and great works of the past. Beyond that, it is not necessary, imho, for them to read it all! In fact, they will learn more, remember more, and be able to understand more of these works if they study them at a little older age. History is the study of the motivations and ideas of men of the past and how the consequences of their actions affect us today. Really, the older we are, the more insight we have in general into human motivation, triumph, and failure, and the more capability we have for analyzing and understanding history. As we struggle with the questions of the ages (Who is man? What is his purpose? How can that purpose be achieved? Is there a God? What is He like? How can He be known? What is the best means for man to govern himself? How should labor and capital relate to one another? What is truth? What is justice? etc,etc,) the writings of the past begin to have relevance to our lives and we actually want to read them and learn from them. I question whether high school aged students have this interior motivation. Nevertheless, some exposure is necessary in order for them to have a basic education. My children did more than LeeAnn listed for LCC, but less than the Kolbe list.
Here is an outline; most years combine history and literature, but 12th grade doesn't:
9th: The Epic of Gilgamesh
The Odyssey
Antigone
Agamemnon
Oedipus Rex, Oedipus at Colonnus
Plato's Apology
Socrates meets Jesus
Sections of Thycidides
Sections of Herodotus
A Day in Old Athens
10th: A Day in Old Rome
Aeneid
Gallic Wars
Julius Caesar
Famous Men of Rome
St. Athanasius On the Incarnation
St. Cyril of Alexandria On the Unity of Christ
The Restless Flame
Selections from The Confession
The Founding of Christendom, The Building of Christendom (some)
(I think there was a little more, but I'm not remembering it now. It's kind of like labor, once it's over, you forget the agony!)
11th: Beowulf
El Cid
The Song of Roland
The Canterbury Tales
The Quiet Light (St. Thomas Aquinas)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
Knights of the Round Table
The Tempest
Shakespeare sonnets
Poetry of Middle Ages (Marvel, etc.)
The Interior Castle
The Building of Christendom
12th: The Merchant of Venice
The Prince
Thomas More's Utopia
The Wealth of Nations
American State Papers (Declaration,etc)
Selections from The Federalist and Anti-Federalist
and from here on out it isn't "classical"!
I tried to relate history and literature generally. As you can see, we didn't read a ton of books every year, but we did try to discuss or in some other way analyze what we read. Cliff Notes and Spark Notes were very helpful in these discussions. We also used some Teaching Company courses for the basic history. Also, for the American history year, I was impressed with American Declaration Statesmanship, but I will say it was a lot of reading and prep for me as teacher.I used it with my third ds, and we were not able to complete all the work. On the other hand, I learned a lot!
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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stellamaris
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Oh, and it is definitely essential that your children have a familiar knowledge of Greek mythology or they will be really unable to understand poetry and many literary allusions. My children were already well-versed in both Norse and Greek mythology by the high school years, but, if yours are not, D'Aulaire's Greek Myths is sufficient for a basic memorable introduction.
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Caroline
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ekbell
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My initial feeling is that the child should about the classical works and should be required to choose and read from an selection suitable to their studies and ability. I'd be inclined to use the various lists as a gauge of what would be reasonable to put on such a list.
This will give the child the knowledge both of the existence of said classics and their own ability to find and read them.
I'm saying this because I've spent more time then I like to admit trying to teach my children what I wished knew rather then starting by teaching myself [art and music history]. When I started taking a bit of time and teaching myself what I wished I had learned, I found that I calmed down and was better able to balance what I taught to my children.
I'm currently searching out great book lists in a desire to read more classical literature myself before working on what my children should learn. [A task made much easier by the number of said works which are now on the internet and the developement of devices (eReaders) which make reading ebooks more viable.]
As a teen I wasn't interested in books older
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Topic: How much Greece and Rome?
