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amyable
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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I hope I can be quick but thorough in my question as I only have a moment -
How can one remain gentle in their approach to teaching with advanced little ones (in our case, just turned 4 and about 6.25  )-- kids who if they aren't being included in schooling are off getting bored and ignored?
For example I look at the Serendipity Alphabet Path and think my kids are beyond learning that - esp my 6yo would be bored. Even with the math - she's really exceptionally smart and the younger one is following in her footsteps.
I don't want to push, I don't want to ignore the 3R's completely. And I *must* plan something for them, or it won't happen, and we'll have a repeat of last year where they just wandered around getting in trouble.
Is there something "next" after the Alphabet Path? Would it be crazy to put them in Oakmeadow in 2nd and K?
Those of you doing the World Tour, how are you hitting the 3 R's ... just as part of what you are doing?
I'm sorry this seems like a silly question - but I'm really at a loss. How can one be gentle with a bored, gifted kid? Just FYI, I tried Montessori here, and unless we move and/or hire a full time babysitter for the toddler, it's not happenin'. 
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Jody
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 4:33pm | IP Logged
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I'm not much help but I know how you feel:
amyable wrote:
| Just FYI, I tried Montessori here, and unless we move and/or hire a full time babysitter for the toddler, it's not happenin'. |
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I also have an almost 4 year old and a 6.25 year old with a very busy active toddler. I do montessori learning with them by keeping activities in ziploc baggies and putting them into large bins. I take down a bin, the 3 and 6 year old select whichever baggy they want and then take it to the table to work on.
I then give the toddler an activity out of another bin so she is busy too and won't be so apt to distract them. That leaves me free to work with all the older ones....(ideally) 
Just my 2 cents on trying to make montessori work with a family all around...
Jody
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stellamaris
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Amy, could you clarify your question a bit? I tried to answer it, but I'm not sure I quite understand what you are looking for. Do you want regular sit-down school work for the younger ones? Do you want information about activities they can do while you are working with the older children? Something pre-planned or something more advanced or what? I'm wondering if you are having trouble finding time to work with them since it sounds as if you are not working with them now ("they just wandered around getting in trouble."). So is the goal to have more structure, more intense instruction, or what? Or are you using the word "gentle" to mean non-academic, as opposed to an attitude of gentleness?
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Caroline
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CandaceC
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 4:51pm | IP Logged
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Amy, have you considered workboxes?
This has helped so many families to include all their children...
If you are interested, I can't post links right this moment. But search this board, there a few threads.
Also, click on my blog and go to the category "workboxes" and I have ideas for early elementary and also for preschool! :)
Just a thought...
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Candace - wife to David since 2000...mommy to Hannah (Feb. 2002), Emily (April 2003) and Caleb (March 2005)
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amyable
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| Posted: May 21 2009 at 8:54pm | IP Logged
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I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my opening post. I don't have much more hope for this one, as I've already had to rewrite it 5 times due to being interrupted! 
I'm not so much concerned with *how* to include them as *what* to teach them. I wanted to do a very peaceful, healing, Waldorf-y kind of year. Yet my state requires certain subjects be taught, particularly the 3-R's in which the kids in question (my 6 and 4yo) are advanced for their age. Teaching a 6yo long division because she is "ready" for it academically doesn't seem particularly peaceful or healing, YKWIM? And I haven't pushed her to get this far, it's been all by osmosis.
I guess I was hoping those Oak Meadow-y, Waldorf-loving, Serendipitous types of families out there would have had a kid like mine and would know whether it's OK in the long run to do long division with a 6yo if she likes it (as an example).
I'm sorry this is not making much more sense. I'm going to post it anyway - but I've got to run because the toddler is now totally upset and I just can't do-rewrite number 7. Hopefully tomorrow I'll come back with a clearer head. :) If you know what I'm talking about though, feel free to chime in!
Thank you Jody, Caroline, and Candace for your thoughts so far!
Amy
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stellamaris
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If she's interested in more advanced material, I'd follow her lead. Why fight it? Just be sure she is understanding the concept underlying the math. I'd continue to demonstrate math concepts with manipulatives. The best elementary math curriculum, imo, is Calvert Math. It has a great combination of concrete and abstract instruction, and lots of math practice and enrichment. It's perfect for a gifted student; you would have to test to determine her level. It's also expensive. Another thought is Right Start Mathematics because of the fabulous way that curriculum develops mathematical understanding. Just because she can do the algorithm doesn't mean she understands the concepts. Also, if she's reading well, go ahead and give her more challenging material.. I read Gone with the Wind in third grade in two days, and my son read Tom Sawyer in a similar length of time in third grade. Reading is definitely the easiest subject to let a child go ahead in. I'd check over my bookshelves, though, and make sure anything with adult content of any kind is stored where she can't get into it. If she's a bright kid, letting her go ahead will keep her out of trouble.
I'm not sure, but it almost sounds in your post as if you want to do Waldorf-y type schooling to fit your family into some notion of the ideal homeschool family, but in your heart you know that is not going to work for you or for your child. Don't try to make her into something she is not, and don't compare your home with what everyone else is doing. Take from others the ideas that WORK in your home and for your kids as they really are (not as you wished they were , btdt), and skip the rest without guilt. When you actually can do it without guilt, email me immediately and let me in on the secret! Finally, I know it doesn't seem like it now, but you will get through this extremely busy and demanding time of motherhood. Offer up all those constant interruptions and trials, and here's a hug just for you!  Hang in there, and I hope something of what I posted here addresses what you are struggling with.
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Caroline
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SeaStar
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| Posted: May 22 2009 at 7:14am | IP Logged
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I had the same thought at first about the Alphabet path: would it hold the interest of a 6 going on 7 yo boy all year?
Then I considered that the ladies who developed it used it with their whole families- kids of all ages- all at the same time.
I went back and studied the plans in detail. I was humbled. And THANKFUL.
It is so rich, so stuffed full of all kinds of great ideas and plans. I have no doubt now that it will be more than enough for all of us. I can't wait to get started on it.
I will continue to use RightStart Math with it for my ds, who is doing well with the program.
But everything else I need: art, science, religion, nature study, author studies, even recipes- it's all in there. Just in preparing for it I have discovered many great books in the lists that I might have otherwise missed.
It might be worth a second look to see if you can adapt any of the ideas for your needs...
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KC in TX
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I found the same thins as Melinda about Alphabet Path. I think it can be done with your advanced kids. I'll be doing it this year (failed this past year) with my soon to be 6 and 4 year old. My 6 year old reads on a 5th grade level. I think there's enough to do on the Path to keep her occupied.
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Mackfam
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Amy - I'm gonna take a stab at this... my 2 cents for what it's worth....
I think you CAN be gentle in your approach with an academically advanced child. It's all about following their lead...which you're doing.......which, btw, IS Montessori!
amyable wrote:
| Teaching a 6yo long division because she is "ready" for it academically doesn't seem particularly peaceful or healing, YKWIM? |
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I think it can be if the child is clearly ready for it. Present it to her and let her set the pace. Use whatever curriculum you're comfortable with. Pushing a child academically is something I am definitely not a fan of...but engaging a child right where they are is. Just offer slowly, and let her set the pace. Be gentle in your presentation of the material, no pushing (which I know you're not doing). Then, let her choose to work with the material again...or not. It would be neither peaceful nor healing to have a bored, destructive 6 yo who constantly interrupts older children's lessons because she wants to be a part of something...wants to engage in *something*. Give her material she can engage in.
amyable wrote:
| I guess I was hoping those Oak Meadow-y, Waldorf-loving, Serendipitous types of families out there would have had a kid like mine and would know whether it's OK in the long run to do long division with a 6yo if she likes it (as an example). |
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I have a child who just gets math. I love a gentle approach, I don't push, but nor do I believe that holding back a child is necessary in order for a curriculum to be "gentle". I'm a big believer in a child-led approach. If they're ready for reading...great. If they're not...also great! I might introduce a concept or lesson (chances are my older children already have introduced by way of a lesson they are completing) and if there is interest, we just move forward gently. I observe (read: watch carefully while breaking up WW III with two other children) the child for signs of readiness, excitement, aptitude, interest...or exhaustion, frustration, dis-interest, resistance...and make adjustments.
It is my belief that once you have a collection of little people and bigger people, a lot of learning goes on by osmosis...and if there is a child in the littler people mix who has a natural gift for seeing or expressing him/herself in a subject they are going to excel and take off quickly. I think that's what you're seeing. And, I say go with it!
Let the 3R's as your guide. Continue offering beautiful and gentle vehicles for learning to take place. If you don't engage your children where they are, you will likely see boredom, destruction, and acting-out.
Did I come close to answering your question?
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amyable
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| Posted: May 22 2009 at 9:31am | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
| Did I come close to answering your question? |
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Yes. Now will you just come to my house and help me make those moment to moment decisions, and lead me step by step?
I think part of my problem lately is that I feel particularly brain dead.  I *see* their needs, but don't know what to *do* about them. I don't know "what activity next" or "this one is too hard, what's a step down?". Too much thinking.
Thanks again everyone.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 22 2009 at 9:35am | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
| Now will you just come to my house and help me make those moment to moment decisions, and lead me step by step? |
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YES!!! I'll be there for tea this afternoon! I wish!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Angel
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Amy,
I think it is easy when you have little ones (or any ones, actually) who are way ahead of that all-important "grade-level" *cough *, to second-guess yourself, because the prevalent view in much of society is that you must be "pushing" them. However, if your 6 year old has picked up math to the point of long division through osmosis and is asking to do more... offering her long-division *is* gentle. *Forcing* her to do long-division... probably not. But giving her the opportunity is just taking her lead.
I think it is probably harder -- I mean, it takes more confidence -- to skip more grade levels with a young child advanced in reading or math than a gifted child who, say, actively resists learning to read but will throw a temper tantrum if he is not allowed to go on the Victorian house tour and orient everyone with his very own plan of the house. (Ahem.) I mean, when a child does that, people just look at you like you're a weird-o. But if you were ever to mention that your 6 year old does long division ... there would be disapproval, kwim?
So, first, if you haven't already checked it out, here's a link to the Hoagies Gifted page. In particular, read the essay Is It a Cheetah?.
Now, on to more practical matters. What do you tell your school district you're teaching? And how to use a Waldorf-y-ish approach with advanced learners?
1. Meet the child where she is. That means if she can and wants to do long-division but has problems with handwriting (not that your dd does, but it can happen that a child whose mind is raring to go has hands that still belong to a 6 year old), you'll need to find a math approach that allows for manipulatives. You also won't be able to use prepared all-in-one plans (sorry, Amy), because you'll probably be mixing and matching too much. (You know, fairy tales AND long division ) So you may not be able to buy OM 2nd, 3rd, or 4th grade all-in-one plans to use. When you write your curriculum for the school district (or whatever), I'd just mention topics ("the four processes", for example) and that she likes math and you'll be working at her pace.
2.Ok, so you know you're going to have to mix and match curriculum, approaches, etc. Find the essentials of the philosophy that speaks to you, especially as it applies to *your* littles. For instance, make a main lesson book to go along with math. Don't just stick to the workbook. Give her some graphing projects, some real-world stuff. (Here's a book: Real World Math) Let her build with marshmellows, art straws, or zome tools.
3. If you're doing anything as a family -- say, history and science -- make sure you're really doing it as a whole family. By that I mean, make sure you have some projects, books, etc that will appeal to everyone -- even the toddler. (Your toddler may end up tattooing himself with purple marker, but he would probably have done something of the equivalent if he wasn't at the table with everybody, right?)
4. Don't sell Montessori short -- for the toddler, I mean . Montessori doesn't have to be complicated. Give him some bottles with tops to take on and off. Recycle them when he's done.
5. Do art. Expect perfectionistic tantrums. Take a deep breath and do it anyway.
Gee, Amy, I'm not sure if any of this helped. (I'm writing with a baby asleep on my shoulder.) You might want to look into the Reggio/project-based learning approach, too. I know that just trying to keep the little ones (6 and under) in mind when we're studying anything as a family instead of trying to set up individual activities for everyone 6 and under has helped quite a bit. My kids aren't the early reading/early math types, though - they're more the "Please tell me everything there is to know about wooly mammoths RIGHT NOW" kind of kids - so a lot of what I've written is pure conjecture.
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Angel
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Oh, and another thought (or two) I had while out in the garden... don't throw things at me, but... your 6 yo would be in the next "level" of Montessori, ages 6-9, where she would be able to do long division at the age of 6 if she wanted to... Elementary Montessori is a lot easier to implement in the home than primary Montessori, IMO. Not as much "stuff". You might give it a glance.
Also, for your 4 yo, I don't know how far along in reading she is at this point, but... I thought Kathryn's Bob book main lesson book was a great idea. You could take that concept and apply it to whatever level your dd happened to be working.
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amyable
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Angel wrote:
| Oh, and another thought (or two) I had while out in the garden... don't throw things at me, but... your 6 yo would be in the next "level" of Montessori |
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I won't throw anything at you, except maybe all the homemade Montessori stuff I made years ago... now wait, I got rid of all that
You are right about the 6-9 age grouping, I hadn't thought about that.
Oh and FWIW, I *love* Montessori as a philosophy, it's the practical "Montessori at home" that I just can't make happen (and trust me, I've tried ... bins, boxes, consumables, shelves, even tackle boxes! Homemade... storebought...) I'll revisit it though, at least for Jane, for math...
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happymama
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Is there a Classical Conversations group in your area? We don't have one here, but I'm on week 3 of using it with my 4 & 6 year olds, and they are loving it. Especially the 6yo, who is a voracious reader and insatiable learner. The program provides 24 weeks of material to cover over the course of a year (of course at home you can adjust as needed), so the other weeks I will refocus on Montessori and great books. I haven't yet figured out how to fit CC into my educational philosophy, however - it does not "feel" montessori OR mason... but I think if it's presented well, the kids are intrigued. In other words, you are following interests that they don't yet know they have.
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Jeannine
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Thank you, Amy, for bringing this issue up, and thank you to Angel for mentioning Hoagies' Gifted Page. What a goldmine. My son is in our parish school, but we are realizing that he is gifted and are looking for ways to enrich his education at home. Thank you so much for bringing up the topic.
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krystab
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Amy,
I use the curriculum called Moving Beyond the Page with my oldest because she is a gifted, creative learner. You can use it as a supplement or as a whole curriculum. What you see on the site is what you get, so look over the sample pages closely. It is written to meet state standards, but is very different from typical workbook curriculum. My DD has a lot of fun learning with this program and it really pushes her too.
My DD was quite a challenge for me until we started this curriculum. Just go to
movingbeyondthepage.com to check it out.
I need to get back to that Hoagies site to poke around too!
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Eleanor
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We're having similar questions about our eldest two children, aged 5.5 and almost 4, who are well beyond typical K- and preschool-level math and language arts. The only difference is that I haven't attempted to do the Alphabet Path; it looks lovely, but I've come to the conclusion that I'm just not a fairy kind of person. But the same sorts of issues seem to come up with most other styles of education. The only exception I can think of would be "full Montessori" -- i.e., giving the child free access to the complete range of activities across all subject areas -- which, I agree, isn't do-able in the typical home. Otherwise, the parent has to make decisions as to which activities to make available to each child. And if they happen to have one or more children whose academic development is exceptionally fast and unpredictable... for instance, going from sounding out BOB books, to reading fluently at a middle school level, in one year... this decision-making is an ongoing and tiring process, which involves a lot of second-guessing. I can see why unschooling is such a popular choice among parents in this situation.
Regarding certain programs working well with a large range of ages, this may well be true, but I'd also keep in mind that there's a big difference between, say, a typical 8-year-old, and a highly gifted 5-year-old. Even if little ones are far ahead of their peers in terms of speed of learning and understanding of abstract concepts, they aren't likely to have the fine motor skills or patience to put that knowledge into concrete form, such as written reports, lapbooks, cardboard models, etc. Of course, they'll likely have fun anyway, but most of the work is going to fall on Mother. Unless you happen to have abundant free time (), it seems as if it would make more sense to hold off on these kinds of projects until they're old enough to take care of most of it themselves.
I'm also inclined to think that it's somewhat easier to pull this sort of thing off if you have some considerably older children, in addition to the little ones. For one thing, you have some helpers. More importantly, you can present much of the material on the older children's level, and let the younger ones soak up whatever they're capable of. For those of us who have only little ones, it might come across as if we're pressuring them. Or it might just be frustrating, if they decide they want to run off and play dress-up in the middle of our carefully planned lesson.
In my case, I'm soon to be a mother of four, all aged five and under. Even though the older two are clearly advanced with "academics," their behavior and interests are fairly typical of preschool children. If I'm going to be able to teach everyone together in some sort of structured way (which would certainly be easier than the hodge-podge of things that we're doing now), what I really need is less of an all-ages homeschooling curriculum, and more of a souped-up version of something like Little Saints. It would still be based around short daily sessions with songs, stories, coloring, cutting and pasting... except that instead of just shapes and numbers, it would introduce the decimal system and basic operations; instead of just letters, it would introduce phonics, sight words, and simple grammar and punctuation; and so on. The focus would still be on learning the basic "preschool skills" (handwriting, following directions, etc.) -- which my children certainly need practice with -- but we wouldn't be revisiting so much redundant information in the process.
With a new baby on the way, I wish I could open a book or package and have something like this all ready to go, but I think I'd have to create it myself. It shouldn't be too hard, though. We already have an abundance of materials, so it would just be a matter of putting it all together. And I know the children would love it.
Thank you, Amy, for making me think about this subject again from a new perspective. 
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krystab
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Eleanor wrote:
what I really need is less of an all-ages homeschooling curriculum, and more of a souped-up version of something like Little Saints. It would still be based around short daily sessions with songs, stories, coloring, cutting and pasting... except that instead of just shapes and numbers, it would introduce the decimal system and basic operations; instead of just letters, it would introduce phonics, sight words, and simple grammar and punctuation; and so on. The focus would still be on learning the basic "preschool skills" (handwriting, following directions, etc.) -- which my children certainly need practice with -- but we wouldn't be revisiting so much redundant information in the process.
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Except for the songs this is the Moving Beyond the Page curriculum I mentioned above. It isn't Catholic, it is secular. I have found it very easy to add the Catholic element in. And I haven't had to edit anything out yet either. You would probably be happier with the 5 to 7 age range packages. The PK is pretty much like Little Saints with more thinking/analytical skills, but much less prep. The little saints prep just kills me, so we read the books and that is about it.
I can get more specific about the MBTP curriculum if you need I have used PK, the 5-7, 6-8, and the 7-9 ages.
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Eleanor
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Thanks for the suggestion, Krysta. I've been looking at the MBTP samples, and we might end up getting one of the individual topics as a supplement. Still, I don't think it's quite what we're looking for as an overall approach. The lessons do have lots of opportunities for creative thinking and hands-on experiments, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of actual crafts and classic stories once you get past pre-K. Okay, so there's the thing where you take a fresh 8"-10" fish, dip it in paint, and use it as a stamp to decorate placemats. In general, though, there's a shortage of what I'd consider "preschooly" activities at the 5-7 and 6-8 levels, and a lack of substantial math and language arts content at the pre-K and 5-7 levels. As a result, if we started with 5-7, my just-turning-4 DS would have a hard time with many of the activities that require fine motor skills. At this age, he can only draw rudimentary pictures, and is just starting to use scissors. Meanwhile, my eldest (who's turning 6 later this year, and would meet the cutoff for first grade in some states even if she weren't advanced) would likely find a lot of the academic content to be very simple.
I know that even if the level isn't a perfect match, these lessons would provide opportunities to learn about science, geography, and culture... but at this stage, I don't think these subjects really need to be formally taught. Our children already get quite a lot of exposure to them, just from books and everyday conversations. Like Amy, I'm mostly looking for a way to help them continue learning the basics of reading, writing, and math -- in a gentle way, according to their own abilities -- to give them a solid grounding for future learning.
For now, I'm going to go ahead with the "accelerated Little Saints" idea and see how it works out. My copy has gone walkabout, so I've taken the opportunity to order another one used, and it looks like the previous owner has done a lot of the fiddly stuff already. 
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Staying 'gentle' with advanced littles
