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hereinantwerp
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| Posted: Aug 09 2008 at 6:43pm | IP Logged
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could you all please help me think this through?
I put my boys in public school last year (for various reasons). I am longing to homeschool them again, but really not sure what is best for us. Caveat--this is a really good public school in a tiny town, with caring adults, excellent teachers, very involved parents, high academic scores, etc.--a "best case scenario", for public school, that is!
So here is an initial list of positives I've seen:
*Greater connection to the community here (very positive)
*My 13 year old has been provided with a structured day, which has been very positive for him--it occupies his time and keeps him from moping in his room!
*He also has the motivation of grades and scores, which HE loves
*Opportunities to grow in some ways socially, the need to work with others, participating in band and sports
*My 8 year old received really, really excellent help and support in reading and writing, and I saw huge progress for him for the first time EVER. Would this have happened eventually anyway?? I don't know, but for years I felt I was banging my head against the wall!
*My boys seem happier in general. Well, especially the teenager seems happier.
*OK, I have to say it--it relieves a lot of pressure off of me trying to "produce it all", I have more attention and patience for the toddler and enjoy our long snuggle-times, I feel caught up with the housekeeping stuff which is a big relief, and I have more quiet and peace of mind. Being pretty extreme on the "introvert scale", I can't say I don't enjoy these aspects--a lot! And though I would never sacrifice my children to meet my own needs, I've learned that those needs and preferences aren't "nothing", either--if that makes sense!
Now for the negatives of public school we've experienced so far:
*I am very worried for my middle son that his creative, free spirit will be squashed within a few years. He likes school now, but it's a LOT of work for him, and he's still pretty little.
*My kids have been exposed to unclean talk and etc. Recently we had a conflict with another boy in our church where my older son had initiated a very unclean conversation with this boy and his younger brother  . Rebellious attitudes are also so common in our culture. Though I have never felt real "victory" over talking back, and etc., it does seem a bit worse since they've been in school, especially with my younger one.
*The near-total focus of the public schools on "standards and skills" which can be measured and tested---OK, I think maybe the schools can be really good at teaching SKILLS. But fundamentally, we are not fact-and-calculating machines, we are SOULS. This is really the point I am sticking the most on!!!
*Though there are some social challenges which have been healthy for my older son (who WOULD tend to sit and mope in his room!), does the bad outweigh the good here? Is he really strong enough in a group to resist the temptation to fit in when it comes to unclean talk, alcohol and drugs, etc??? I wanted this to be true before he entered any ps setting, and I don't think it is.
*I feel like I never see them. After school, younger guy plays with friends and then has a ton of homework, older guy has activities---I hate that it is an "all or nothing" situation--they are at home all the time and it feels like EVERYTHING depends on me, vs. they are gone all day and I hardly see them!
*I grieve that they aren't getting the "living books" education, exposure to wonderful literature, art, music, nature, and etc. that I dreamed of for them!!! Public school teachers can be wonderful people, but they simply don't have the time, even when they do have the heart.
*My 13 year old, though he likes the "structure" (and I am much more "freeform" at home than structured), is really not challenged. He had straight A's last year and hardly did a stitch of homework. I am afraid he will get the same "This is totally boring, what's the point" attitude about learning that I had! He DOES read and re-read his favorite "living history" and geography books from homeschool, however!
If anyone has more experience with +/- re. public school, decisions they have made, the impact of those, how things turned out, etc., please share! DH and I are just praying really hard about these things.
__________________
Angela Nelson
Mother to Simon (13), Calvin (9), and Lyddie Rose (3)
my blog: live and learn
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LisaR
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| Posted: Aug 09 2008 at 8:15pm | IP Logged
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we have had a great experience with the Catholic Diocesan High School for our oldest. He was homeschooled for K-8th grade. I felt like he was ending up "self-tutoring" a bit more to my liking, and/or I was feeling it for our family was a bit much to be patching together his education much longer. I also wanted him to answer to other adults regularly, have deadlines, and be challenged by his peers (healthy competition athletically and academically)
He also is studying the Didache series in school, they pray hte daily office, his homeroom has regular confessions, Mass, etc.
I love homeschooling. I also love my son's school.
I think that it is such an individual decision.
who knows if I will feel the same way once my little girl reaches high school age. 
but for my son to have all male teachers/coaches, and such a solid faith formation is priceless!
We honestly had reached a point with some very immoral issues cropping up in the Catholic Homeschooling group- which led us to look into school to begin with. (a blessing in disguise)
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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| Posted: Aug 09 2008 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
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PS, I used to be very against the standadized testing stuff. however, I can see a value to having to do some testing, and many grad school programs , for example, rely heavily on test taking scores for students to be allowed to enter.
I could not prepare his as well as his school is in those "standard" ways... it is jsut not the "vibe" of our family, kwim??
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: Aug 09 2008 at 8:38pm | IP Logged
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Experiences from school that entered into our decision to homeschool.. the social aspect, yes.. but as far as what schools teach and the teachers.. it was more about the beauracracy.. and the "war against excellence".
3 experiences come to mind especially that illustrate the main type of thing I'm talking about.
1) the teacher who couldn't see past the rule and allow the Lord of the Rings to be written up for weekly book reports by the book (it consisting of 3 books), but accepting books that I could read in an hour or two.
2) because of moves and how different schools did things, I was behind the most advanced level and still well ahead of the next level down and had been working with a group but little teacher help at the previous school.. my group had done an abbreviated amount of 8th grade math and then moved onto algebra 1.. I was 1/3 of the way through algebra 1, the new school was 1/2 way through, it was the semester.. and they simply would NOT let me even attempt to catch up.. though I'd have students ahead of me who could assist, a teacher actually teaching the course etc. That working as a student group without teacher we'd managed to get 1/3 of the way through in a quarter meant nothing.
3) the teacher that impressed me, who presented herself as one looking for excellence and made me want to do my best.. until she marked my first paper that I worked really hard on a D.. because she claimed I had to have plagerized it. When asked what I had plagerized, she said she didn't know but that no one my age would use vocabulary and phrases that I did.. I was 14. I was able to get B's and A's on the rest of the papers for that class by writing them during the class I had just before that one. I suppose I should have written another paper at my best to prove how I could write.. but I tend to be lazy and it was a lot of work and the emotional blow of having worked so hard to please and been kicked in the teeth just made me not care to attempt it. 
And I put those as reasons ahead of the emotional torture I was put through by my peers at one school so it was also a limited time. In some ways, your peers can do that if you're involved at all in the community so I don't find that homeschooling would completely let you escape that but that holding back someone who could do so much more or better.. that I find one of the really crippling things about public school.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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Milehimama
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| Posted: Aug 09 2008 at 8:48pm | IP Logged
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hereinantwerp wrote:
So here is an initial list of positives I've seen:
*Greater connection to the community here (very positive)
*My 13 year old has been provided with a structured day, which has been very positive for him--it occupies his time and keeps him from moping in his room!
*He also has the motivation of grades and scores, which HE loves
...
*OK, I have to say it--it relieves a lot of pressure off of me trying to "produce it all",
Now for the negatives of public school we've experienced so far:
... But fundamentally, we are not fact-and-calculating machines, we are SOULS. This is really the point I am sticking the most on!!!
... Is he really strong enough in a group to resist the temptation to fit in when it comes to unclean talk, alcohol and drugs, etc??? I wanted this to be true before he entered any ps setting, and I don't think it is.
*I feel like I never see them.
*I grieve that they aren't getting the "living books" education, exposure to wonderful literature, art, music, nature, and etc. that I dreamed of for them!!!
*My 13 year old, though he likes the "structure" (and I am much more "freeform" at home than structured), is really not challenged.
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We have private schooled, home schooled, and public schooled. Last year my oldest, age 9 was in PS (he was in a sp. ed program) while everyone else was homeschooled. This year we will all be homeschooled - and negative peer influences are the main reason.
We make the decision - with prayer - each year based on what is best for our family at that time.
You bring up some VERY important points.
Disclaimer - my oldest is not a teenager yet, he is 10.
Ultimately, we are raising souls. We all will have to answer to God for the decisions we make for our children. If you think the PS environment is a danger to his soul, and his conscience which has not yet matured, then you should not put him in that environment.
I don't know if your son has been confirmed yet or not. If he has not, IMO a parent should be extra careful about outside influences.
How can you continue to instill Catholic perspectives and values, if you are never together?
If you decide to bring him home, there may be other options that can bring the benefits of PS home, too. Some districts (Colorado, for example) allow HS'ers to be part-time public schoolers. Be on the football team, join the choir, take a chemistry course, etc.
Virtual public schools provide structure and feedback, but without the negative peer influences.
Is it possible to connect to the community in a more real life way? Volunteering at a nursing home/retirement community, meals on wheels, etc.? Public schools are not the only way to connect.
Pray, pray, pray for God's guidance and to do His will. Encourage your children to pray with you - pray together as a family for the best decision.
Sorry I'm not more help!
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Willa
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| Posted: Aug 09 2008 at 8:58pm | IP Logged
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Angela,
I am sending my 15 year old to school next year -- starts next week actually! -- so please know I'm not categorically against public school.
However, I do think that what kids LIKE is not always what's good for them. I don't think structure is ALWAYS good even if the kid prefers it, I don't think social activities (or isolation, if you have introverts like mine) is always good even if the child seems to thrive on it in the short run.
I've always thought the benefits of being pushed in a school situation were not as great as people have sometimes said. Sure, you would think that the kids forced to work for six to eight hours a day would develop a better work ethic than the kids who get to do math in their pajamas while eating breakfast, but in fact it almost seems to be the opposite in some ways.
I think there are a lot of benefits to the homeschool that don't show up on the surface. I am not denying there are some drawbacks, too, especially if you live in a small town where all the youthful and family community is wrapped up in the local school (we live in that kind of town, too, and I admit I sometimes feel like I am starving for some type of support that doesn't involve driving all over the place.)
Not really addressing your questions, probably. I am really mourning having to send the ds off -- and staying up at nights praying that it's the right decision. He will be having more constraints on his time, a severely less Catholic atmosphere, and less time in the family environment. At the same time I'm trying to be open to situation and trust that it will be a good choice for him.
I sure know what you mean about the balance -- either 100% on mom or almost no family life. It can SO feel that way, though my older kids have shown me that it's not 100% ME -- some of it, a lot of it, is THEM and their home surroundings.
Very rambling thoughts; just wanted you to know I can relate. I will pray for your decision-making process.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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hereinantwerp
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| Posted: Aug 11 2008 at 1:49pm | IP Logged
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Thank you for the --understanding-- that this is not a black and white or simplistic decision!
There ARE other ways to be involved in our community, and we are already involved in them--Scouts has been SOOOOO positive for my oldest (the ranks, levels, etc.--he loves it!!). I wish the troop was a bit more active, it's quite casual--in fact, ds has brought some fresh ambition to it by quickly climbing past everyone else in rank! 4H is very active here and we have the opp. to join that. This summer the boys did swim team which was also incredibly positive for them, and unrelated to school. My younger son has several nice friends in the neighborhood he rides bikes with, etc. (tho ps DID help him "break in" to that). To me, these kind of things provide the exact "community involvement" that I am comfortable with! BUT, my 13 year old wants to try basketball-------that is probably the main reason he wants to go to 8th grade in particular! He is not confident enough to go out for the school team if he is not in school, he does not want to be "the different one". OK, I can remember being 13---and this is indeed excactly how you feel inside. My gut feeling is to let him try it (I'm not sure he will shine in this area, he is more gifted in brain than body), but because it is soooooooooo important to him, "forbidding" him to go to school just doesn't feel right to me. Maybe he can figure out for himself that school is not all it's cracked up to be, and that sports may not be his area----or if basketball is successful, he will feel confident enough after knowing the other guys to look at other school options and still do it. He's already commented many times that the schoolwork is totally boring (tho I think he likes getting away with it being so easy, which was not true at home!). Ooooooooooohhhhhhhh---I just don't know now. But at his age it doesn't feel right to just "dictate"-----
Ds also says he "gets bored" at home. This grieves me, because I have tried so hard to cultivate the living-learning attitude (was definately forcing things too much when he was younger, but in pretty relaxed way now), and I myself am never bored, but always full of too many creative ideas--was like that as a kid too! Maybe if we got rid of our tv, LOL------but I don't think dh is up for that! I DO limit it, but I still feel the all-pervasive media in our age "conditions" kids to expect to be entertained, and I grieve that. He also really did seem to need a boot in the pants to get out of his room-----hard to explain but it just was not an emotionally healthy trend for him. He still has plenty of privacy, reading time, etc., but now it's more in balance. Willa, I completely agree with you that what kids want is not always the best for them. Actually, this son did NOT want to enter ps, but that was based on fear---I don't think decisions should be made out of fear. I can see he has SOME more confidence now about meeting people and initiating things, and a bit more skills in the relational/working with others department. PS can kind of force these things. And maybe he really has needed some of that.
For my oldest son, he has been baptized (I am a deep respecter of CAtholics, but we are not Catholic ourselves). But I feel he is going through a new level of questioning his faith, and I see that as very positive. I had too many Bible college friends go through severe crisis of faith after college, because they had always been told how to think on every subject--------one way taught and no questions allowed---in fact, it would be great for him to be able to really dig into the questions of, what does he believe?? in the homeschool setting, reading some classics like Lewis, Chesterton. I had always kind of wanted to do Sonlight's church history program, which seems to be geared around these questions. In dh's ministry, we have regular contact with int. students who are Muslim, Buddhist--yesterday ds was playing soccer with an Arab, an Iranian, Mexicans, and a Korean . So these questions already come up! But is he going to be lazy and just follow the world's thinking, or the wishy-washy stuff of public school, or be challenged to decide what he believes?? And yet last winter I did have this dream about my older dh, that confirmed at the time that school was ok. ANd I can't shake the fact that he DOES seem happier overall---------those of you with teenage boys know that a generally happy boy is a lot more pleasant to live with than a generally angry one. He's still very open to talk to us--WANTS TO talk with us---so I'm taking that as a good sign.
I wonder if for some reasons he needed to try the public school, but I am hoping he will choose to come back home???????
For my younger one it is a totally different situation. At his age, we would be totally ok "dictating" what is the right thing to do. Maybe one of the biggest factors is MY stress level and abilitites, as he is a very frustrating child to try and "teach" (though he's a custom made unschooler in some respects!). It's hard to shake the fact that he improved SOOOOO dramatically in reading and writing in the school setting. So I just don't know. Yup, all this brainstorming and rambling here, and that's where I'm at!! I just pray and pray and trust that God will reveal what is the right way when I need to know it, he always does, but not always on my schedule----!!! But thank you for the input sharing your experiences!
__________________
Angela Nelson
Mother to Simon (13), Calvin (9), and Lyddie Rose (3)
my blog: live and learn
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Kathryn UK
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Angela, I have almost identically aged children to yours, and we also put our two eldest into school this past year, in a similar "best case" scenario. After prayer and discussion we both felt it was the right choice for them at that time, though I was less confident that it would work out for our 9yo. I'm still planning to homeschool our little one when the time comes, for as long as it seems right to do so.
I found it hard to let go of the homeschooling dream, but for us - so far, at least - school has proved the right decision. My very extrovert eldest daughter needed the stimulus of working with others, and there was no possibility of providing that as a homeschooler here. I think if we had kept her home another year, either she would have stagnated academically, or we would have spent the year locking horns over schoolwork. At school she has taken ownership of her own work, and does all her homework without any pressure from us at all.
We decided to try school for her younger sister because she was, quite simply, unhappy - not with homeschooling, but with life in general. She is much the more sensitive child, and had been thrown for a loop by the ups and downs of the previous two years (pregnancy, new baby, family health issues and hospital stays, family demands that took me away from home one or two days a week). My dh felt that the structure of school might help her to get back onto an even keel. It did, and she is very much happier than she was.
Yes, there are negatives to school - mainly the time pressure and exposure to certain things I would rather they weren't exposed to - but for us the positive has definitely outweighed the negative. So far, the fruits of a year at school have been good. Both girls got glowing reports from their teachers and made good progress academically. More importantly, I like the way they are behaving. This summer has been a delight. Relationships have been great, both between myself and the girls, between the two older ones, and between the olders and their toddler sister. It isn't how I expected things to turn out, but it appears to be working.
My keys to discernment have been:
(1) Prayer - in the past when I have prayed about whether to send my eldest to school, the answer has been "no". This time round it was "yes" for both.
(2) Listening to my husband, who is able to be more objective.
(3) Is it working? (If it ain't broke, don't fix it!)
(4) Relationships - good or bad? To me, nurturing a good relationship with my daughters, particularly as they reach the teen years, is a very high priority.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael,  Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
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12stars
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I have had experience in both kinds of school and I just cannot get past how awful our schools are. My dd that is 12 and in 7th grade sometimes makes me feel bad because she is home, but then she realizes all that is happening to her friends that she went to school with in elementary and it also scares her. Our middle school down the street is so sexually charged that it just makes me angry to think about it.
Our elementary is not the greatest either, it is not the worst but it is not the best.
Discerning is the biggest part of this all and knowing that trusting God all the time is what works best, sometimes it's hard though, if not all the time.
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Claudia in Southern California
Wife to George,
Mom to DD 14, DD 10, DD 7, DS 4, DS 2, 1 in heaven, and now due 5/11.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: comparison: public school vs. homeschool
