Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



Active Topics || Favorites || Member List || Search || About Us || Help || Register || Login
Living Learning
 4Real Forums : Living Learning
Subject Topic: Unschooling and Self-Direction Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Willa
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
Posted: Sept 08 2005 at 2:43pm | IP Logged Quote Willa

Hmm, here's my question.   I hardly know how to ask it. Is it possible to unschool and still "direct" a child's education?   It sounds like such a stupid question, but it comes down to the parent, in our Catholic faith, being authorized and qualified to teach, and train, our kids.

I can imagine a Catholic argument that would go: Yes, we have a duty to ensure as far as possible that our children be faithful members of the Church, good citizens, and that they develop their own unique gifts; but we don't think we have to use methods that have failed in the schools, and we don't think it has to be primarily a push-pull type relationship, so we look for ways to guide and mentor and acknowledge the 3-dimensional, "whole" aspect of learning. Or something like that.

See, I've asked it and you can see why I was having trouble even figuring out what I was asking.

What I see is that you unschoolers on this board are commited to your children's learning and do have that overview of where it's going that small children CAN'T yet have, but that you prize patience and flexibility and trying to pick up on your kids' signals about how they learn best.   Plus that you acknowledge that education is about WAY more than doing 4-5 workbooks every morning.

I think perhaps I'd better stop over-processing this Yesterday, my kids and I were working out in our yard and we were having so much fun and also discussing really interesting things and exploring the environment in such a wonderful way.   My older kids were playing with the little ones, making a "nest" for them out of pulled-up weeds, and we found and looked at a grasshopper and some beetles. My daughter was sharing her ideas on music and other things with me.   It was SO fun and also, when I looked at it, equivalent to a nature study for the middlies, a high-school seminar for the teenager, and fun and exercise and new vocabulary for the little ones, all without any kind of assigning or even thinking about it.   Plus, we were all working together for a common family goal -- getting the exterior in order before the snows come.   It made me realize how long it's been since we've done something like that -- too often I'm so task-oriented.

Anyway, I just thought I'd see if any of you had some perspective on my question, if it even made sense

__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
Back to Top View Willa's Profile Search for other posts by Willa
 
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
Posted: Sept 08 2005 at 7:54pm | IP Logged Quote Meredith

WJFR wrote:
Hmm, here's my question.   I hardly know how to ask it. Is it possible to unschool and still "direct" a child's education? ... I think perhaps I'd better stop over-processing this


Willa, I love that you've brought this up and just last night I found myself re-reading the whole Homeschooling With Gentleness thread just to see if I missed anything. Is it perhaps that you are trying to talk yourself into to being an "unschooler" or to just maybe understand where the "unschooling" mind set might fit into your family???? Please don't think I'm being bold here, if I am , but it sounds like things are going pretty good and that maybe the overanalyzing (which I do all the time) is driving you to question your already excellent situation??

I am NOT an unschooler by any definition that I've researched (which is little) but I am intrigued by all this discussion and would like to think that maybe I too could incorporate some unschoolish attitude/ideals into our school. I LOVE the day you described by the way, how awesome and wasn't that unschoolish?

I am certainly not qualified to approach this question , but wanted to maybe shed some perspective from an outside the unschooling box that perhaps everything you're doing and striving for is just GREAT as is

Hope to hear other responses to your questions here and on the 101 thread.

__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light   


Back to Top View Meredith's Profile Search for other posts by Meredith Visit Meredith's Homepage
 
juliecinci
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 294
Posted: Sept 08 2005 at 8:30pm | IP Logged Quote juliecinci

WJFR wrote:
Is it possible to unschool and still "direct" a child's education?


Willa, this is a timely question for me. I have been studying (in grad school) the difference between "ideology" and "transformation" - the first has to do with holding to a perspective with no ability to allow it to change, filtering all information through a grid that predetermines what the "correct" answer will/should be. The second (transformation) is about a quest that evolves over time; it allows for changes in thinking, and approaches the insights of others with a willingness to be transformed by the encounter.

Unschooling ought to be a transformational experience that expands and contracts like the living thing it is, rather than a new ideology that we adopt in order to protect ourselves from failure.

When I think of "unschooling," I imagine two kinds of unschoolers. There are those for whom unschooling has become an inflexible ideology - it is a "system" as much guided by a fundamentalist spirit as those who textbook teach at home. These unschoolers protect and defend a "definition" even more than a lifestyle at times.

There are others for whom unschooling is a way of life that reveals a flexibility and openness to new insights, a lifestyle that is characterized by certain attitudes and attributes, not a defensiveness or criticalness of other ways of living to shore up an idea more than a value system.

The question "Is this unschooling" is an ideological one, sometimes, more than a transformative one. Unschooling as "transformation" will look more like a process of trial and error, of "this works" and "that didn't," of discovery and nuance, rather than rules, taboos and shoulds.

What does all this have to do with your question?

As I've looked at this little folder of threads and have participated on the unschoolingdiscussion@yahoo loop for nearly three years, I've discovered that at times, I am sucked into thinking that there is a "right way" to unschool and that if I deviate, I don't get to see myself as an unschooler. But the trouble is: I love the philosophy! For me, unschooling at its best is just like the day you described with your kids! When the serendipity is there, everything clicks and you feel so good about learning and education and your children.

But some days/months/years, it's just less like that. I have difficulties making math a natural part of our lives at the upper grade levels. We use tutors and follow curricula. To protect my repuation as an unschooler (ideology) I could say that the kids are choosing this for themselves... but that wouldn't be true. I am the one suggesting, arranging, following up to be sure homework is done, paying for the tutor or bartering writing lessons for it, ensuring that upper level math is on the docket for their educations.

One of my younger kids is unwilling almost ever to do anything that is not "what he feels like doing" and now I am noticing with my oldest that that has been a weakness of his as he enters adulthood. So I'm asking myself - what is my role here? Do I cater to this weakness in my younger son (and believe me - I err on the side of not doing so I am in no danger of "over-doing" as some moms might be) or do I gently guide him into following through on some of his goals that require a dogged pursuit in spite of his not liking them so well when they get hard? Is that unschooling? Does it matter? I want to think about my child, not my philosophy so much, in those instances.

I notice that I have to train study habits for my kids who are parttime students in school. They did not pick these up at home in the unschooling environment. Not surprising, but it makes me think about whether our goals for our kids (and theirs too) include high school or college. Will they be hindered if I haven't exposed them to following through on a full course of study even when they get tired of it?

These are the questions I ask myself. I want to resist being beholden to an ideology for its own sake or the sake of my identity. On the other hand, I also don't want to let fear of the future curtail what is life-giving in our home too. Unschooling has been life-giving - dramatically so! So I want to protect and guard that, too, while I consider these other issues.

This question of yours is never comfortably resolved. It's one of those that I live with, in tension, because I care so much. And my answer to it (and yours) will undulate based on my observations of our children and my personal experiences.

My personal feeling is that no matter what we choose, we are guiding our kids' education... They don't decide unschooling or text books. We do. So no matter how loose or rigid our structures, we are still influencing who they become. That's why we are never done thinking about this stuff. Our kids continue to defy every ideology as they grow into unique human beings with strengths... and shudder... weaknesses.

Julie

__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
Back to Top View juliecinci's Profile Search for other posts by juliecinci Visit juliecinci's Homepage
 
juliecinci
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 294
Posted: Sept 08 2005 at 8:52pm | IP Logged Quote juliecinci

Just thought of an example of the difference between ideology and transformation.

Think of La Leche League and breastfeeding.

Some women come to meetings afraid to use pacifiers, won't touch bottles, will question the commitment of a mother who pumps her breastmilk or lets her baby fall asleep in a swing rather than in her arms. She is thinking that a committed breastfeeder must "look" a certain way or she's not "really" committed.

There are others for whom breastfeeding is this rich, bonded experience of mothering, who may or may not use a bottle occasionally or whose babies enjoy the swing or who suck on a pacifier in the middle of the night. These moms are sometimes viewed as "compromisers" by the ideologues. But by other moms, they might be the breath of fresh reasonable air- "You mean your baby uses a pacifier too and you are still an attachment parent? Phew."

And then there are those who only breastfeed ever, who use cotton diapers and no pacifiers... but you feel totally at home with them anyway. You don't worry about showing up at their meetings or homes with your bottle in tow because those women are interested in helping you breastfeed at whatever level you can comfortably do so. They see breastfeeding the way the flylady sees housework - whatever amount you can do blesses your family. They love breastfeeding and exude enthusiasm, not judgment.

I am thinking of unschooling this way. If in your search to understand unschooling, you feel that you can't admit to the math book you use or the spelling curricula your third grader loves or the fact that you make a schedule for how you organize your days, even though you love the philosophy of gentle natural learning, then you are likely around ideologues. Those whose aim is your transformation will take you where you are and affirm the ways you are slowly incorporating more and more of the unschooling lifestyle and thinking into your home.

It's much easier to talk about unschooling (or religion, or politics) with people who have been transformed and are engaged in the process of becoming, than with those who are rigidly attached to definitions and determining who is "in" and who is "out."

Hope that isn't as clear as mud.
Julie

__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
Back to Top View juliecinci's Profile Search for other posts by juliecinci Visit juliecinci's Homepage
 
Genevieve
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star


Joined: April 02 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 529
Posted: Sept 08 2005 at 9:09pm | IP Logged Quote Genevieve



__________________
Genevieve
The Good Within
Back to Top View Genevieve's Profile Search for other posts by Genevieve
 
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 1:33am | IP Logged Quote Leonie

Willa,

A brief thought. Or two.

I guess, as a Catholic parent I feel I "guide" my children's education, not "direct". It is probably only semantics but there is a difference there for me. Perhaps thinking of the word "guide" reminds me to listen to my children and to the Holy Spirit whereas when I think "direct", I get more forceful.

Also "guide" reminds me of the Holy Spirit and guidance in my life and the fruits of the Spirit - and of free will. Very complicated thought process, I know.

I also know that too much speculation about education and methodology, for me, translates into too little presence with my dc. It affects our relationship. For me, there is a fine line there. I need some introspection and analyzing but too much is almost like a sin for me - it distracts me from the job at hand i.e. guiding my chidlren as a Catholic parent.

None of this may be applicable to your situation, of course! Sharing my own experience and thoughts with unschooling and homeschooling.

Leonie in Sydney
Back to Top View Leonie's Profile Search for other posts by Leonie
 
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 7:08am | IP Logged Quote Mary G

Leonie -- can you come for tea -- you have given me such good advice about this unschooling thing -- I had looked at it before and thought -- that's a bit new-agey and how would it work, and it just boggled my mind. It sounded almost like a cop-out to let the kids lead their own.

But I love the concept of "guiding" rather than directing my little ones -- you guide them across a street until they do it on their own, you guide their hand when they're first starting to walk, you guide their bike when they're first learning to ride and even with the big ones, you guide them when learning to drive......

Thanks!

On another list, a member mentioend "delight-directed learning" -- another phrase that has really hit me right this morning.....

so now I'm off to delight-guide my kids.....

Thanks for all your great advice!

__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)

my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
Back to Top View Mary G's Profile Search for other posts by Mary G Visit Mary G's Homepage
 
juliecinci
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 294
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 7:29am | IP Logged Quote juliecinci

Leonie wrote:

I guess, as a Catholic parent I feel I "guide" my children's education, not "direct". It is probably only semantics but there is a difference there for me. Perhaps thinking of the word "guide" reminds me to listen to my children and to the Holy Spirit whereas when I think "direct", I get more forceful.

Also "guide" reminds me of the Holy Spirit and guidance in my life and the fruits of the Spirit - and of free will. Very complicated thought process, I know.


I love this way of expressing it. Sometimes I think that I get the impression that guidance is the same thing as direction in the minds of some unschoolers. Maybe strewing is the term they would use.

But to me, guidance has to be about having some of that foresight that kids don't yet have while remaining committed to honoring who they are as individuals with limited insight and experience. If they aren't ready, they aren't ready. That's one of the key principles in unschooling that has worked well for us.

Leonie wrote:

I also know that too much speculation about education and methodology, for me, translates into too little presence with my dc. It affects our relationship. For me, there is a fine line there. I need some introspection and analyzing but too much is almost like a sin for me - it distracts me from the job at hand i.e. guiding my chidlren as a Catholic parent.


This is where thinking about the definition of unschooling can be a mistake for me too. I want to hang out with my kids and learn from them who they are, not focus on trying to fit them into a definition.

I remember on the unschooling list that one of the list owners suggested spending a lot of time with your dc at first especially. Do whatever they do. When I did that for several months, I found that I had no doubts they were learning and growing. It was as if all the worry I did in my head about what they might be missing evaporated in the light of what was actually occuring in them.

I like how you put things, Leonie.
Julie


__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
Back to Top View juliecinci's Profile Search for other posts by juliecinci Visit juliecinci's Homepage
 
Laura
Forum Pro
Forum Pro
Avatar

Joined: Aug 16 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 182
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 7:30am | IP Logged Quote Laura

juliecinci wrote:
Just thought of an example of the difference between ideology and transformation.

Think of La Leche League and breastfeeding.


Julie


Okay, I wanted to quote the entire thing again because it was GREAT!
I am re-reading your post until it really sinks in.
Thanks for sharing your insight and using a great example to boot!

__________________
JMJ,
Laura
wife to Ken and mom to 8 blessings with #9 due July 26,2009
Back to Top View Laura's Profile Search for other posts by Laura
 
Meredith
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 08 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2355
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 12:38pm | IP Logged Quote Meredith

Wow, what great responses! Leonie, I love how you described that your "guiding" your children much like the Holy Sprirt guides us.

I also like to see how others are sort of shying away from any kind of a definition for unschooling because I think that's where I personally get caught up and begin to overanalyze and try to make it fit, where really and truly unschooling will look different in every family, much as *real learning* does, just to coin a phrase from a well known author on this list.

Julie, I love the ideology/transformation connection you have shown us as well as your comparison to a La Leche mother and breastfeeding. You are such a beautiful writer and I appreciate your ability to paint a picture for me in your words and ideas.

We have had a very Holy Spirit guided kind of day here, I could maybe even call it unschooling and would love to hear about how others are doing there *guiding* as well.

__________________
Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
Sweetness and Light   


Back to Top View Meredith's Profile Search for other posts by Meredith Visit Meredith's Homepage
 
Willa
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 5:02pm | IP Logged Quote Willa

Wow, thanks SO much all of you.   I am so glad I asked and that you could read between the lines to what I was trying to work through.   

I have printed out the whole thread to put in my notebook and have been writing out responses in my head all day, but since I am still processing, I need to think a bit more before I write it all out -- aren't you glad

But you have no idea how much all your answers and the replies to my other question helped me sort through all this.   Thank you!

__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
Back to Top View Willa's Profile Search for other posts by Willa
 
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 7:00pm | IP Logged Quote Leonie

Willa,

I think I will print the thread, too - Julie's analogy was very helpful.

Hey, Mary, I'd love to come for tea - Earl Grey.

Leonie in Sydney
Back to Top View Leonie's Profile Search for other posts by Leonie
 
BrendaPeter
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star


Joined: Feb 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 981
Posted: Sept 09 2005 at 10:12pm | IP Logged Quote BrendaPeter

Whoa! So much good stuff here, but I wanted to focus in on the part about "self-direction." This from Julie's post really stood out for me.

juliecinci wrote:

One of my younger kids is unwilling almost ever to do anything that is not "what he feels like doing" and now I am noticing with my oldest that that has been a weakness of his as he enters adulthood. So I'm asking myself - what is my role here? Do I cater to this weakness in my younger son (and believe me - I err on the side of not doing so I am in no danger of "over-doing" as some moms might be) or do I gently guide him into following through on some of his goals that require a dogged pursuit in spite of his not liking them so well when they get hard?

I notice that I have to train study habits for my kids who are parttime students in school. They did not pick these up at home in the unschooling environment. Not surprising, but it makes me think about whether our goals for our kids (and theirs too) include high school or college. Will they be hindered if I haven't exposed them to following through on a full course of study even when they get tired of it?


I highlighted this because it's been , IMO, a major concern to me about "unschooling". I'm finding that some children are naturally self-directed but what if the child is not? They seem to be the ones we are often writing about on this board! And they usually come in the "male" form, I might add (no insult intended!). How does unschooling, in its purest form, foster self-discipline in a child? In the "real world", rarely does one do what one "feels like doing" a majority of the time. How do we prepare our children for that reality?

Personally, I do assign my kids schoolwork that they don't "like" and explain to them that we don't always get to do what we like in life (and I often go on to explain that those things we don't like are usually the things we benefit the most from!). Of course, there is always a balance here and that's where "gentleness" comes in. I used to be more of the school of thought that I didn't want them to do anything that seemed "useless" like workbooks, for example. Now I'm learning that there is a "discipline" to doing certain things. I've read in Laura Berquist's writings that within the classical curriculum, one should focus on method over content. Even those in the military are required to fold their clothes perfectly - for the discipline of it.

Julie also mentions following through on a full course of study. I do think that following through is important as so many subjects build upon themselves. This following through also crosses over into so many areas of life. It's so easy to get discouraged when you're learning to play the piano, for instance, but the joy of mastering the piano is so worth it!

I believe JP II is quoted as having said something like "Families, be who you are." That really struck me when I realized that not only are we all unique human beings, but we are also unique as families. Because of that, the way we homeschool will be like our signature in its uniqueness.


__________________
Blessings,

Brenda (mom to 6)
Back to Top View BrendaPeter's Profile Search for other posts by BrendaPeter
 
Genevieve
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star


Joined: April 02 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 529
Posted: Sept 10 2005 at 7:42am | IP Logged Quote Genevieve

I think the key to self-discipline is the word self, discipline that comes within. We as mothers can help nurture self-discipline and I think we should. Even as a small child, discipline is evident as a toddler struggles for 10 minutes trying to grasp this tiny speck on the floor. As parents, do we recognize this intense concentration and watch patiently aside until his preseverence wavers? Do we encourage him to try again on his own time? Do we know when to suggest that the child takes a break from the activity at hand so that he can approach it again later with a fresh mind? To impose discipline, IMHO, would be to cripple the child. The child needs to practise discipline. Like other virtues, they all need to be practised. The Holy Spirit whispers in our ears to inspire us, to encourage us but I think, ultimately in the end it's a muscle that needs to be exercised. Now this is easy for things that the child feels like doing. Then how about things that the child doesn't feel like doing? Then again the question of self-discipline comes from within too. Much like temptation and sin. It requires much self-discipline to resist temptation and honestly, if the child isn't used to exercising self-discipline, then it is all too easy to give up. I think when the child understands the need for self-sacrifice for the Greater Good, it is easier for the child to exercise self-discipline. Lent is especially a good time to excercise self-discipline. I think someone once mentioned that she talked to each child before Lent and if the children chooses to, they would confide in her their Lent sacrifice. Often she would ask in what way may she help the child in their sacrifice because sacrifice requires self-discipline but often it is often easier if there is encouragement either in the physical environment or through human interactions. God didn't impose His will on us but He guided us and gave us some fundamental laws. Sometimes as a mother, I do impose my will over the child. Often I realize this can be avoided if the environment and much foresight was in place. As for academics, I think for the rudimentaries, would eventually reveal itself within the child as important, and I think as parents we can gently show how important it truly is.

IMHO.

__________________
Genevieve
The Good Within
Back to Top View Genevieve's Profile Search for other posts by Genevieve
 
juliecinci
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 294
Posted: Sept 10 2005 at 9:09am | IP Logged Quote juliecinci

Great comments Genevieve and Brenda.

I want to answer in more detail but I'm supposed to be declining Greek verbs right now!

Let me just throw out something to chew on. The best thing about completely unschooling for us has been returning the sense of personal responsibility to the individual child (we've been at it for three years). No longer can our kids say "I had to do it because Mom said so." They are learning that they are responsible for their own lives, their futures and everything else. I am here, Jon (dh) is here, to offer support, guidance, friendship, and that all important modeling.

For two of my boys, they have articulated that sometimes they feel "less than" others - in a particular area. The younger one struggles big time with handwriting. He has begun to practice handwriting on his own. But I know he gets worn out easily.

I've returned to Charlotte Mason for advice about how to build a habit. She is so fabulous in this regard. We do it slowly, incrementally, with lots of praise and short lessons. I don't push, but I do support.

On the unschooling list, it was suggested that I leave it completely alone. I did for several weeks while he demonstrated that he really was interested in growing as a handwriter (on his own, not with me pushing him along). But then he mentioned that he just doesn't always have the will to keep working on it... yet feels he wants to on some level.

So I offered to support him in developing a habit and achieving a goal - legible handwriting that can fit in normal notebook paper lines. Each day, he works on it a bit.

When he gets weary or says do I have to today? I remind him of his goal and sit with him and help him choose something short to handwrite and stick by him while he works it out. In the past I would probably have just said, "No you don't have to." Today, I help him rise above his lethargy. If he is really resistant, we might let it drop. But so far, he recognizes that I'm like his personal trainer for handwriting. I am giving him the extra insentive to fulfill his goal.

This is very different than what we did back when my oldest was his age where I "required" he do handwriting even if he didn't like it. My "lectures" about what he'd need for college bounced off a wall, too.

We have something similar happening with math. As I look ahead to high school and college, I can see that some facility with math and its vocabulary will be helpful to this same son who hates workbooks. But I am not that good at teaching math. Charlotte Mason says it is up to the teacher to make math and grammar exciting. If the teacher doesn't, then we can't blame the child for hating them.

So I've had to think about how we do math and my limitations. We've had to have many talks about what it is to work on math and if he is willing. He hasn't been willing for three years. I've let it go. He is in sixth grade now and is finally willing. We've done MUS this week each day and he gave up computer time to do it.

I asked him how he felt about it and he said, "So far, it's good. I don't mind." I sit with him while he does it. That helps him. We hope to finish the book this year. That is the long term goal.

The difference with this child (11) versus my oldest (18) is that I kept waiting (in the last three years) for math to click with him without my interference. Perhaps partly in reaction to having designed and controlled his education for so long before that. He's done well learning math concepts on his own, but he has problems writing out math problems. That's why we're working on it.

I regret that my oldest resists being instructed by teachers... but perhaps that is as much a testimony to my pushing as anything else. He is in college with me studying Greek and I have to keep my mouth shut to let him succeed or fail on his own terms, not mine. But it's tough to watch. (He absolutely loves the class, though, even though homework is something else again...) He's great in class. It's the out of class part that is hard for him. But he is sticking with it so far.

Like Leonie brought up, I am wanting to be a guide - a support for what the kids say they want so that they can stick through the hard parts. I am not wanting to impose my vision or will, but to offer means for carrying out a habit or practice. I also have to be careful that I don't "make it up" - impose my ideas on them and then pretend that is what they want.

Lots of dialog here.

And I am taking seriously that it is my job to bring live-giving learning into the home so that it is compelling, even when it is hard.

I am devouring Charlotte Mason's "A Philosophy of Education" again and it is helping immensely. I'll try to post some quotes later.

Gotta go!

Julie

__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
Back to Top View juliecinci's Profile Search for other posts by juliecinci Visit juliecinci's Homepage
 
Willa
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
Posted: Sept 10 2005 at 3:08pm | IP Logged Quote Willa

happyheartsmom wrote:
Is it perhaps that you are trying to talk yourself into to being an "unschooler" or to just maybe understand where the "unschooling" mind set might fit into your family???? Please don't think I'm being bold here, if I am , but it sounds like things are going pretty good and that maybe the overanalyzing (which I do all the time) is driving you to question your already excellent situation??


Dear Meredith,

You are not being bold .   Things ARE going pretty well; I wouldn't call them excellent. I've been thinking about your question -- yes, I know I do over-analyze and sometimes it gets ridiculous.

But when I think about it, I've seen that part of the reason our homeschool has gone "all right" (not GREAT) is that we've balanced through the years.   One year or season more structured, another season less so.   I want to try to grab Julie's "transformation" term here -- but I can't guarantee I'll use it successfully....

Homeschooling has been a "transformative" experience for me.   But transformation requires continuing transformation. In some ways, I would imagine, an "ideology" is an outgrown "transformation".   So let's say I discover ecological breastfeeding and it "transforms" my mothering. But instead of letting that be a building block for deeper understanding of what mothering is, I get stuck there and start fixating on perfect attachment parenting, as Julie described -- constantly worrying about how pure my choices are and judging others if they don't measure up. Then I'm stalled.   I'm stuck there. I'm in a closed loop.

Charlotte Mason calls it "system" as opposed to "method". A system is a fixed, closed set of rules; a method is based on general principles that are applied flexibly to particular situations.

If I tried to absolutely codify what has worked in the past, it would be ideological. The problem is that a system or ideology is in some ways more efficient than a method or transformation. Once we put aside questions of WHY? and WHAT FOR? we can accomplish more superficially-- like Martha as opposed to Mary.   But then we may be accomplishing the wrong things, working against our true purposes.

This is not contradicting what Leonie is saying.   Leonie's approach seems contemplative to me.   She observes the particular -- a word, a motto, what her kids are doing -- and moves into the universal from there.   That's like what Mary was doing.... beholding Jesus, sitting at His feet and contemplating. I wish I did it better. If Martha had been preparing dinner "contemplatively" Jesus would not have rebuked her, but she wasn't.

I have a tendency to over-analyze because once I get a new insight, I want to let it transform me, but I don't want to be led down a false path. That's the good part, I guess. The bad part is that I want to codify the new insight and rest there, as if it were going to last forever --so part of my over-analyzing is a desire to just keep things in their ideal state -- AH! now I don't have to do any more journeying! I'm there already! but life isn't like that, and neither is education.

So the reason my homeschool has been OK has been because it's been responsive to changing circumstances and needs -- I've tried to keep it a "method" not a "system" -- but there are stalling times when I'm in denial, WANTING things to just keep going the way that worked in the past, and there are stalling or rather dormant times like now when I'm trying to redirect, go deeper, get rid of the "old wineskins" etc.

Hope I made a bit of sense here, you can probably tell I'm still assimilating and I hope to be able to say it a bit more clearly someday.   But right now I'm right in the middle of it!   This is way more than you wanted to hear, probably! I hesitate to hit "post" but here goes...

__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
Back to Top View Willa's Profile Search for other posts by Willa
 
Karen E.
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161
Posted: Sept 10 2005 at 4:28pm | IP Logged Quote Karen E.

WJFR wrote:
This is way more than you wanted to hear, probably! I hesitate to hit "post" but here goes...


Willa,

I'll not hesitate to say that you should never hesitate to hit "post."   

WJFR wrote:
Once we put aside questions of WHY? and WHAT FOR? we can accomplish more superficially-- like Martha as opposed to Mary.   But then we may be accomplishing the wrong things, working against our true purposes.


I've just read through this entire thread, and so haven't really had time to process all the thoughts and ideas from everyone, but here's what struck me when I read the above from you.

I think as long as we keep the questions of WHY? and WHAT FOR? at the forefront of all that we do, then we can rest a little easier about how our methods, systems, ideologies and transformations are all coming together.

In our homeschool, I've always hesitated to put a label on what we do. That's been both advantageous and embarrassing ... advantageous, because it leaves me free to approach different areas of learning in a variety of ways, and embarrassing (though I'm over the embarrassment part now, but felt it in our first couple years of hs'ing) because I never had a succinct answer when people asked, "What curriculum do you use?" I used to hem and stutter and say something about what an eclectic mix we are. I didn't want to say, "We unschool," because it wasn't only that, though that was probably more accurate than anything. I didn't want to say, "Charlotte Mason," because I didn't follow her methods to the letter, and had never even read her original writings. I also didn't want to say "classical," because while some classical elements were present, we certainly weren't truly classical. I couldn't say "Seton" or "MODG" or "Kolbe" because although I'd referred to all of those schools,their curricula and catalogs, I'd never signed up, ordered from or used any of them extensively.

Sigh. What was I? It used to bother me a bit to not have a clear answer or a label. But these days, I confidently answer the question with, "I design our curriculum myself." And that's true. Sometimes I design structure, routine and something a little workbookish, sometimes I design open-ended time that I know will be full of reading, talking, learning and growing. The point is that I have to keep asking myself, each year and with each child (and taking into account my season of life -- am I pregnant? Sick? Sleep deprived?) "WHY?" and "WHAT FOR?"

No two years of our homeschool have been the same. Well, perhaps that's not entirely true. What has been the same is that I've included a mix of methods that work for my kids and for me. Each year has had some sort of formal, structured stuff, directed and/or guided by me -- I made the choices, I introduced it to the kids, and in 9 cases out of 10, we all enjoyed it and learned from it. In the tenth case, I had to ask myself, "Why am I doing this?" If the answer was that I had, as a responsible Catholic parent, determined that this thing, whatever it was, was in my child's best interest, then we continued, whether the kids liked it or not. Some parts of life are simply like that. But, if my answer was that I was only continuing to push the disliked agenda because I thought we all "should" do this, or "doesn't everyone have to go through this?" or because I was just having trouble letting go of "the plan" then I knew it was time to reassess.

I hope to instill in my children the belief that some things, no matter how distasteful, are worth doing out of love. Love -- for God and others -- is the answer to "Why?" and "What for?" When I lose sight of that, I lose sight of how to approach my children's education.

I know that it's true that my kids will not always be able to do "just what they want," or "just what they enjoy" and that we all have to learn the hard lesson that we live in a fallen world, that life is often hard. But, life is also full of beauty and joy and the grace of God. I don't want to kill all the beauty, joy and grace by trying to prove to my kids that the world is fallen. The fallen world seems to intrude on the best of days, the happiest of families and the most joyful times. I don't have to create opportunities for my kids to learn that life is hard. But I do need to look for opportunities to help them learn how to respond to life's hard edges.

Realistically, most of us adults take on distasteful things only because love is somehow involved ... I clean toilets and make meals when I'm exhausted and go through labor and delivery out of love, not because "everyone has to do this." My husband goes to work every day out of love for his wife and children, not merely because he "should." I don't want to teach the kids, "Life is hard ... get used to it." I want to teach them, "Life is hard because we're fallen, but God has left us the capacity to love, and all that we do has to flow from that if our lives are to have meaning and joy."

I know I'm rambling, and don't have time to really think this through, but, I guess my point is ultimately that it doesn't matter if we can find a perfect label, or fit ourselves perfectly into a particular educational box. If we keep our eyes fixed on why we do what we do, then inevitably, we'll be drawn to different methods, different ways of reaching our goals. A workbook might be the most loving choice for one child, but it might be considered akin to the death sentence by another child in the same family. Why would we want to force a particular method on all of our children all of the time, when they all have such individual needs? And, there's the issue of life having seasons, ebbs and flows ... there are the perfect, beautiful unschooling days such as you described, Willa, and there are times that might demand more in the way of structure. Both are "right," within given circumstances.

One more thing, then I need to go. One day a couple of weeks ago illustrated for me the funny (schizophrenic?) balance of methods that coexist in our house. I had planned to spend a whole day planning -- looking ahead to what I hope to cover in the coming school year. My planning time was interrupted by Lizzy, when she came running inside with a cricket she'd caught. Suddenly, we had all kinds of questions. How long will he live? What will he eat? How can we find out? We got out the Handbook of Nature Study, we called the local Earl May (because the girls remembered them having crickets -- albeit crickets who are food, and don't get fed, as we found out when the clerk said, "I do know what eats them -- and in the process, my girls did some elementary research, used indexing and reference and alphabetizing skills ... and we learned that crickets will eat almost anything, up to and including cloth.

But, the point the day drove home was that I had to be willing to let go of "THE plan" and seize the plan for our morning that had presented itself. We were all much happier than if I had said, "Go away. I'm planning your education."

And, yes, I got out my schooling/unschooling log and recorded the skills and learning that took place that morning, because I have a terrible memory and doing such a thing helps to remind me of the richness of our unschooling days. That doesn't mean I threw out the spelling book I'd just ordered for my oldest (because for her, for this year, that's what we need to meet both my goals and hers). It means that I thanked God for the rich variety of educational experiences with which He blesses us.

Okay, I've got to go and I'll hit "post" even though I haven't reread this and I'm afraid it's too rambling and incoherent ....

__________________
God bless,
Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
Back to Top View Karen E.'s Profile Search for other posts by Karen E. Visit Karen E.'s Homepage
 
juliecinci
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 294
Posted: Sept 10 2005 at 5:04pm | IP Logged Quote juliecinci

Karen E. wrote:


I think as long as we keep the questions of WHY? and WHAT FOR? at the forefront of all that we do, then we can rest a little easier about how our methods, systems, ideologies and transformations are all coming together.

*****

"I design our curriculum myself."

*****

No two years of our homeschool have been the same.

******

I hope to instill in my children the belief that some things, no matter how distasteful, are worth doing out of love. Love -- for God and others -- is the answer to "Why?" and "What for?" When I lose sight of that, I lose sight of how to approach my children's education.


*****

I don't have to create opportunities for my kids to learn that life is hard. But I do need to look for opportunities to help them learn how to respond to life's hard edges.

*****

I want to teach them, "Life is hard because we're fallen, but God has left us the capacity to love, and all that we do has to flow from that if our lives are to have meaning and joy."

*****

But, the point the day drove home was that I had to be willing to let go of "THE plan" and seize the plan for our morning that had presented itself. We were all much happier than if I had said, "Go away. I'm planning your education."




Outstanding post. I picked out my favorite quotes. All for love. Yes.

Julie

__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
Back to Top View juliecinci's Profile Search for other posts by juliecinci Visit juliecinci's Homepage
 
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
Posted: Sept 10 2005 at 8:27pm | IP Logged Quote Leonie

Willa, I *do think that unschooling is contemplative for me.

When I endeavour to undertake more formal methods or ideologies, I actually becme less prayerful and less connected with my dc and I make my plans and tend to forget about checking in with God.

WRT, character issues, I feel that unschooling addresses these *more often* for my dc. I am more able to talk to a son about an issue and work with him when I am not pushing lesson plans.

For example, I wrote recently on my blog abour reading aloud The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe and how that made us look at ourselves - are we like Edmund? Or should we do more to help another who struggles with
temptation, as some of us felt that Peter should have helped Edmund ( as an older brother).

Now, all homeschoolers can and do talk about such issues when reading aloud. For me, though, we have more time for pondering when we are not following a full course.

Talking of a full course of study - I look back at our years of homeschooling and unschooling and see that we did study full courses, but not in the traditional sense. It may be some time this season on history, then watching a related film next year, then writing an essay on a history topic for an essay competition. All in all, over time, we saw a full course of study. The "completion" or closure has come when studying for university entrance and university examinations.

Just some thoughts from my own homeschooling.

Leonie in Sydney
Back to Top View Leonie's Profile Search for other posts by Leonie
 
juliecinci
Forum All-Star
Forum All-Star
Avatar

Joined: Feb 20 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 294
Posted: Sept 10 2005 at 9:27pm | IP Logged Quote juliecinci

Leonie wrote:
The "completion" or closure has come when studying for university entrance and university examinations.


Leonie, what does this mean? For us, the university admissions testing is unlike anything in school so it is something to prepare for but it is so irrelevant that it doesn't seem to have much to do with the learning preceding it.

I like what you said about completion coming over years and with repeated exposures to subject matter through a variety of media. This is how we've lived our education, too. Truly.

What is harder for me to grasp is how kids who live this way will succeed in a college environment where coursework is predetermined and over a time period and organized with a pace by someone else (and I am talking really just from my kids' experiences - not with much else to go on).

My two who have done parttime high school have not found the transition easy at all. And the oldest who is doing a college course is finding it difficult to keep to the schedule set by the teacher, though he is interested in the topic.

He even had difficulty with homeschool co-op classes that were electives where someone else determined the pace and content of the course.

He has said to me in the past that he starts many things but doesn't often feel impelled (from within) to finish them. Then he says he gets frustrated that he hasn't got something to "show for it" that he considers mastery or a level of completion.

I understand this somewhat. It is why I enrolled in a Greek class after finding it too difficult to sustain on my own (I tried to learn it without a course or instructor first using only a book).

But I know how to do either (study for its own sake and according to a class format). I have learned things both ways.

I find myself wondering if they don't need both skills so that all of their options remain open to them (college or not college).

How do you see it?

Julie

__________________
Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
Back to Top View juliecinci's Profile Search for other posts by juliecinci Visit juliecinci's Homepage
 

Page of 3 Next >>
  [Add this topic to My Favorites] Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Hosting and Support provided by theNetSmith.com