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folklaur
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I read something on the other thread that caught my eye, and I was hoping you all could help me. The comment was that "unschoolig is not the same as unparenting."
Let me start out by saying when I started really learning about different homeschooling styles, unschooling sounded so appealing. And then I had two different encounters with "unschooling".
One was on a local unschool list. Someone was asking that if when her son took out his father's tools, and left them on the porch, should the mother MAKE him put the tools away when he was done with them? She got all kinds of answers, but not many that said "Yes." Most said, No that would be inhibiting him, or to get a plastic tub and place them strategically around so he could put them there so it wouldn't be so retsricitve for him. I have tp say I was shocked (I hope that doesn't offend anyone who agrees with that thinking - but I was...) but I feel if a child is old enough to be getting & using his father's tools, it would seem to me he should be old and responsible enough to put them back when he was through with them. I don't consider that "restrictive."
The next instance - just a few weeks after - was with two different new families in one of our homeschool groups. They called themselves unschoolers - and I hate to say this - but their children were terrors. Mean, pushy, snotty children who listened to no one.
So - I got a little "turned off" to unschooling.
Then - I recently had a new hs-ing mom ask me - what is the difference between "Child-led Learning" and "Unschooling"? She was designing unit studies around subjects her children liked. I had no idea how to answer her.
So - after all that - I guess what I am asking is -- Can someone tell me what Unschooling is? Or - like was mentioned - what it isn't? I am sure there are variations between families. But - just basically, what is it? What do you "require"? Or don't you? Would you design a unit study around a subject your child chooses - and then have certain work/activities that they would have to do? Or is there very little that they "have to" do?
Thanks in advance for helping me to understand this better!!!
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mariB
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I've been looking into unschooling just to see what it is about. I've met families that totally unschool and I've been impressed on how polite and cooperative they've been. Then, i've met families where the mother seems very disciplined and they're schooling is very rigid and disciplined and their children were wild and even punched one of my kids! So it may have been just those certain families. There is one family I know that homeschools until eighth grade and then they go to highschool. They've done what she calls "relaxed" homeschooling with a little MODG thrown in. They have 6 children and their children are soooo kind, caring, and do really well in school!
Just my 2 cents:)
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folklaur
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I apologize if I was unclear. I never said that "unschooling leads to mean children, and "traditional" homeschooing doesn't."
I am just saying when I first heard about unschooling, I was totally intrigued and excited. Then in short order I had a few experiences that colored my opinion, and so I had a much less favorable disposition towards it.
So I was hoping to hear from moms here, whose opinions I trust, help explain what it is, and what it isn't.
If I worded that poorly in my original post, I humbly apologize...
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Willa
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I think they are good questions, Laura.
Someone described unschooling to me this way:
"When we think about our children's learning, we don't start with "school" methods or goals."
I liked that because it describes how to me, learning is so much a wider field than what children are "taught".
I'm not a unit study type, so I don't unschool that way. My kids basically follow their own "unit studies" when they are interested in something, and I support them, but if I start taking over the direction and preparation, it takes the meaningful part out of it for them.
I do have some school "requires" just as I have some parental "requires". There are some areas where I think it's easier and simpler for both me and for the kids if we "just do it". But too many of those "requires" without exploration or flexibility, and our morale goes down dramatically. Theresa once described a sort of "greyish" aspect that comes over SUperboy when she is expecting too much out of his comfort range and the same thing happens with my kids and honestly, with myself.
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Willa
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Angel
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I think if you read John Holt's work and the old Growing Without Schooling magazines, it becomes clear that John Holt never advocated letting kids do *anything* they want -- like not picking up after themselves, etc. And originally "Unschooling" was a word he coined (someone correct me if I'm wrong) to mean simply what we could call "homeschooling." Because people at home weren't doing things like the schools did them.
I think I would classify unschooling as a *kind* of "child-led learning". Unit studies designed around a child's interests would be another, as would Montessori. I think that people who describe themselves as unschoolers *tend* to have fewer limits for their kids' learning than some of the other practioners of child-led learning. For instance, I don't consider myself an unschooler anymore because I require subjects like math and spelling. But I do tend to follow my children's interests in presenting most subjects, I tend to "strew" materials, and I attempt to set up an environment which encourages my kids to develop interests in their own ways.
Another thing that John Holt would often do was sit down and start working on something (the boxes in How Children Fail, for instance) so that kids would become interested and join in, but he would never force them to take part in what he was doing. What I've always understood as unschooling is that kids are often encouraged to learn about subjects that they may not exactly be interested in (like, say, math), but they aren't forced to work on them in the way that other homeschoolers would say, "It's time to do math now" or "You need to do your math before the end of the day" whether the child really liked math or not.
Not sure I've really done a good job of this post.  I like a lot about unschooling, but we've discovered that a "pure" form doesn't really work for us.
--Angela
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JuliaT
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I think a proper term for what our family does would be 'relaxed schooling'. We have a balance. There are some subjects that are required, like math, but the rest of the day is left to their choices. If they come to me and express an interest in a subject then I will find books for them and maybe some activities. I 'strew' them so they can do them in their own time. Each of my kids have a bookshelf full of games and books. They can select something from their shelf as well.
I know if a true unschooler looked at our day, they would say that we are not unschoolers, hence, my term of relaxed schooling.
blessings,
Julia
mom to 3(8,6,4)
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk
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Leonie
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I say we are unschooly. That we learn from interests and from life, family centred learning, not necessarily using school methods or following a school curriculum.
And I like these unschooling definitions ~
Patrick Farenga, who succeeded John Holt as the Publisher of GWS magazine, : "When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing children as much freedom to learn in the world as their parents can comfortably bear." ( Teach Your Own, page 238).
Mary Griffith, author of The Homeschooling Handbook, writes about unschooling and John Holt: " Children learn best, he argued, not by being taught, but by being a part of the world, free to explore what most interests them, by having their questions answered as they ask them, and by being treated with respect.."
( page 56 -57).
In Homeschooling With Gentleness, Suzie Andres writes: "Unschooling is a form of education in which the child is trusted to be the primary agent in learning what he needs to know to lead him to happiness ( page 12)...'form of education' refers in particular to academic education, not to moral education....those who are trusting the child are his parents.They are trusting him to be the primary agent in his learning, but this does not amount to neglect on their part. The parents assume the role of secondary agents, meaning they do not forsake their duties in their child's education, but rather they recognize and honour his natural ability to learn...( page 12)....While other approaches tend to focus on the teaching done by the parent, unschooling concentrates on the learning done by the student..." ( page 13).
Finally, a simple definition/phrase, from Parenting a Free Child by Rue Kream: "Our unschooling is our parenting is our life together." 
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Barbara C.
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I am a part of an unschooling group, even though they and I know that I don't consider myself a true unschooler. The definition of unschooling can vary, but I feel the best way to break it down is into radicals, moderates, and somewhats.
A radical unschooler usually comes closest to the un-parenting concept but not always. Radical unschoolers do not believe in any form of organized learning. Everything should be completely initiated by the child. The parent should only become involved when absolutely necessary, such as when the child wants to learn more but can not obtain the resources on their own. This applies to all subjects of learning. The idea is that if the child really wants to learn about something whether it be reading, math, or any subject they will find a way on their own. "Curriculum" is often considered a dirty word. They also often do not enforce things like set bed times and sometimes feel that too many rules restricts learning.
Moderate homeschoolers look to see what their child's interests are and do what ever they can to facilitate that learning. Moderates tend to put less onus on the child, and they are not above giving their children curriculum or some structured learning if that is what the child requests and is willing to do. However, there is no scheduled sit-down work or specific subject goals set by parents. And like radicals they tend to live without much structure to their days. However, moderates may try "strewing" to try to light a new fire if one doesn't seem to be burning. My understanding of "strewing" is that it is kind of like setting out a bucket of water to see if the horse has any interest in drinking it.
Somewhat's usually use some form of curriculum for some subjects and have a certain amount of sit-down work everyday. They may let their children choose what subjects or aspects of a subject they want to study but they often still expect their children to study something. But they don't mind pausing the curriculum if their child gets their fire lit over something else or wants to go more in-depth on something they're covering. And they tend to lead more structured lives over all.
From my experience with unschoolers and being a somewhat unschooler myself, this is the best way I know to explain about what unschooling is. I hope this helps clarify things. And keep in mind I'm being very general with these divisions. As with all things, there are some people who blur the lines between categories. This is just meant as an overview from my personal experience.
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Mary G
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I felt the need to jump in here about defining unschooling -- I think of it more along the lines of organic, child-centered learning without much of the articifialness that other education philosophies have inherited because the others (like CM, Montessori, etc) were CREATED for use in a schoolroom while unschooling seems to work best in a homeschooling environment. For instance, CM said that children are individuals who need to be included in what's going on in the classroom, not ignored -- read this as "child-centered"; Montessori found that the children considered "insane" and "unteachable" were teaching themselves thru their own interests -- read this as "organic" and again, "child-centered". But, CM and Montessori were trying to do their work with many children of different temperments and couldn't have them all doing their own thing ... I think this is where unschooling can get a bad name -- I've seen the product of unschooling schools where there are half-dozen to a dozen kids in one classroom all doing what they want, when they want; believe me, it's not pretty!
It's before 7a.m. here, so I'm probably not making a WHOLE lot of sense. I'm just trying to define unschooling in my own head -- child centered, organic, leading children to love learning, giving them/helping them find whole books and living books, not worrying so much about the nitty-gritty details of how many pages per day/how many minutes per subject, but rather allowing the child to keep at something if that's what he wants to do.
This year, since I'll just have my 3 little ones, I'm going to shift to a more organic approach -- using a bit of all the education philosophies -- while still having a general framework of what we'll study. For history, we're going to do ancient civilizations -- but I'll have the kids show me what parts they each want to study -- military, ballista, clothes, gods/goddesses, etc. This will make history much richer. I'll do the same with science -- a basic framework that I'll let the kids show me where they want to go with plants, or anatomy or whatever.... I'm going to avoid using textbooks or workbooks and use games, and manipulatives and REAL LIFE to teach things like Math, science, history, etc. It all adds into the living and learning!
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Leonie
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Mary G wrote:
This year, since I'll just have my 3 little ones, I'm going to shift to a more organic approach -- using a bit of all the education philosophies -- while still having a general framework of what we'll study. For history, we're going to do ancient civilizations -- but I'll have the kids show me what parts they each want to study -- military, ballista, clothes, gods/goddesses, etc. This will make history much richer. I'll do the same with science -- a basic framework that I'll let the kids show me where they want to go with plants, or anatomy or whatever.... I'm going to avoid using textbooks or workbooks and use games, and manipulatives and REAL LIFE to teach things like Math, science, history, etc. It all adds into the living and learning!
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This sounds like it will be a lot of fun - and learning to boot!
We have been studying Australian History ( T and Anny) and Ancient History ( A) this year. In a vein similar to yours, described above. We have read novels, talked about them, followed rabbit trails ( or not) as interests and time have dictated...
How did we decide on these areas of reading? Partly serendipitous. I bought a set of Australian My Story novels, dh read them last year and thought the kids would like them. So, that was my suggestion to them. Alexander preferred something else - he ended up choosing a few books set in Ancient times and we went from there.
Discussion, sometimes a framework, choices, all these make up our unschooly-ness.
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CAgirl4God
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I guess I lean more towards a 'somewhat' hser. lol
when we first started out, I didn't know much about hsing. I bought a complete set from Seton, teacher manuals also, which I read! lol.
then each yr, I got progressively closer to doing things the kids wanted, as opposed to what was listed.
that is what we are still doing. we have core subjects with book work. but I let the kids pick their interests in what book they read, or we read, science and history topics art etc... it has become much more fun for them and also less work for me through out our days and week. the kids look forward to learning and seek things out on their own this was.
we still have routine, but it is more relaxed.
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folklaur
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| Posted: Aug 13 2007 at 10:58am | IP Logged
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So - and I know this sounds like a silly question probably, but still - I guess I am wondering, would a "radical unschooler" think a "somewhat unschooler" or a "moderate unschooler" was an "unschooler" at all?
I know for our family - I am thinking I fall somewhere between Mod and Somewhat? We may - or may not - have sit down work. We use a text basically for Math, but could just as easily play Math games instead of using it that day - but I do try to make sure some math gets done. We use living books for most everything. They can read about what they would like, but they have to do something.
But I don't think I would have ever considered myself an unschooler? I always just refer to us as "relaxed homeschoolers."
hmmmmmm........
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JodieLyn
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I think there may be an underlying philosophy that is also included.. and people who use curriculum may also use it..
Which is that "institutions/government" shouldn't be dictating what we need to learn. We each have our strengths and our goals.. and so sometimes to meet the goals we need to comply with other people's requirements. But many times we don't.. especially in the younger grades.
Unschooling rejects the thought process of having a set of subjects that *everyone* should learn.
Now we all know that generally everyone needs to be able to read and do enough math to deal with their own finances.. but everything else is pretty much up in the air.
Also, the idea that when you need to know something you'll learn it quickly and truely own it vs learning it because it's next in the lesson plan and forgetting it as soon as the last test is done.
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All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
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Barbara C.
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Most radical unschoolers would not consider a "somewhat" an unschooler at all and would be hesitant about "moderates", too. A few of the other moms in my unschooling group and I were discussing this last week. One of them is in an on-line unschooling group and some of the "radicals" in it were even coming out against all forms of therapy for special needs children. She said that some of the radicals considered going on organized group field trips as not being a part of unschooling.
And Jodie adds some excellent points about the unschooling philosophy, especially about learning something well and quickly because you want to or need it to reach your goal as opposed to learning it because someone else told you had to.
This link is to the website of Laurie Chancey, whose mother radically unschooled her and wrote a book about it called The Unprocessed Child. http://www.chancey.info/unschooling.html
It gives you kind of sketch of radical unschooling. I should warn you that Miss Chancey is extremely pro-choice. I'm not sure that this is related to the radical unschooling she received, but I just wanted to give you a heads up. I really enjoyed her essay on the website entitled "A Reason for Cursive Writing", especially since I personally don't place cursive writing as a priority for us.
A book about unschooling that showcases the best of what unschooling can be is "And the Skylark Sings with Me" by David Alberts. I also really like his book "Homeschooling and the Voyage of Self-Discovery". I actually bought that one.
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Leonie
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cactus mouse wrote:
But I don't think I would have ever considered myself an unschooler? I always just refer to us as "relaxed homeschoolers."
hmmmmmm........ |
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I think, perhaps, that unschooling can be an idea held in the eye of the beholder, so to speak.  An idea that differs among people.
That said, I wouldn't personally call myself a relaxed homeschooler, mostly because we don't have daily sit down basics to do and we don't necessarily have a framework within which we follow interests. We may do these things but we also may throw them all out and live life and learn that way together.
It may be that I see unschooling ( giving kids choice, learning from life) as a philosophy but how it works out in my life differs from season to season.
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SallyT
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This is an interesting conversation. (Hi, I'm Sally, I'm new, I introduced myself in the Fireside Chat forum, but just in case . . . ).
We are pretty unschooly overall, though we do use the Mater Amabilis syllabi as a kind of spine, but some of my four children are more naturally inclined that way than others. My oldest, who's 13, is a perfect fit for an unschooling approach. She wants to teach herself, and she does a good job of it, given the right resources. I answer questions, talk to her about what she's doing, help her find ways to log things she's done (especially key since we're entering high school, and we want to have an idea of when she's amassed enough hours in a given area to get credit for it), and just generally act as Academic Advisor, but otherwise I let her get on with it.
My almost-10-year-old wants more direction and structure, so we do have more of a set routine wherein he does what I call his "sitdown work" -- handwriting and math, mainly. Then he's free to read what he likes. With him, I think in terms of the subjects we "school" vs. the subjects we "unschool." We "school" handwriting, because he struggles with it, and math facts (though we've used math games a lot as a way of learning and drilling basics); we largely "unschool" science, geography, history, etc., using free reading, field trips, experiments in the kitchen, and so forth as ways of learning.
My 5-year-old is technically a kindergartener this year, but he's another natural unschooler. I can tell you that whatever does happen this year, it won't be a lot of sitting down tracing letters in a workbook! Today we went to our local children's museum, and he got interested in watching his brother design houses using a protractor. By the time we got home, he had a full-blown case of "protractor envy," so I took him with me to run errands, and we bought a little compass-and-protractor set at the dollar store. He spent the rest of the afternoon happily drawing a "train-station-house" and explaining what was going on in the design to anyone who walked past the kitchen table. So this was kind of an integrated "lesson" -- it was math, because it dealt with lines and shapes; it was art; it was also creative writing, because he was making up a story as he drew the picture. THAT's really what I think of when I think of "unschooling" -- the undoing of the idea that there are these discrete subjects that you can only study one at a time, and no one subject has anything to do with any other. For us, "unschooling" is largely un-that-idea-of-school. Well, and it's sometimes-child-led and always-a-lifestyle-of-learning.
Our conversion to homeschooling happened before our conversion to Catholicism, so we spent a couple of years wandering in the wilderness of local homeschool groups, trying to figure out where we fit in. We got involved with our local unschoolers, and while we made some good friends, what I discovered -- and maybe this is a function of being in the Bible Belt -- was that "unschoolers" was code for "secular" and "inclusive," which among other things meant that there was a good bit of hostility towards what was perceived as Monolithic Stupid Christianity. So I just kept feeling that there were only so many conversations we could civilly have, and that there was only so far I wanted my kids to go in friendships in this group . . . There was a fair amount of un-parenting, too.
So I am really delighted to find some unschooling conversation within the parameters of orthodox Catholic homeschooling.
Pax,
Sally
http://fineoldfamly.blogspot.com
http://saintdanielstylite.blogspot.com
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ladybugs
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Well, I'm jumping in here with some thoughts that I've been tossing around in the ol' cranium all day...
When people hear the word unschool, why is it that it immediately drums up connotations of common sense absenteeism?
I mean before the invention of school, how did people learn?
The reason I'm asking is because unschooling and the notion that learning can actually be a pleasant and engrossing pursuit implies a certain lack of discipline to certain folks I know.
This is strictly about academics, mind you, not unparenting...
any thoughts?
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MicheleQ
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SallyT wrote:
| We are pretty unschooly overall, though we do use the Mater Amabilis syllabi as a kind of spine, but some of my four children are more naturally inclined that way than others. My oldest, who's 13, is a perfect fit for an unschooling approach. She wants to teach herself, and she does a good job of it, given the right resources. I answer questions, talk to her about what she's doing, help her find ways to log things she's done (especially key since we're entering high school, and we want to have an idea of when she's amassed enough hours in a given area to get credit for it), and just generally act as Academic Advisor, but otherwise I let her get on with it. |
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Sally! It's so nice to "see" you here!
I can really relate to what you wrote. I like having the spine of the curriculum and yet the freedom to deviate from the plan. Like you I see myself as the "Academic Adviser". It's really a very CM concept (not that it has to be - but you know me I like CM) in that she really stressed the idea of not "teaching" children. She eschewed lecturing - said only a few people earned the right to do it.
I keep trying to stress to my kids that THEY are the ones who are ultimately responsible for their education. I cannot do the learning for them. My 15 yr. old and I have had some great talks about this. Our state has certain requirements for high school and so there are things he must do but I'm letting him make decisions and find his way and we're both really enjoying it.
Leonie I always picture what you do as my ideal of homeschooling.  I was one of the people who commented on the unschooling/unparenting thing because I find the two so very opposed. I like the term unschooling for what I think it represents but dislike it for how it's so widely used and misunderstood.
We DON'T do school at home so in that sense we DO "unschool" but you know, gosh it's a lot of hard work! It means ME the mom has to be present and involved and engaged with my children A LOT. That's hard sometimes because I also have a lot of little people pulling at me and yes there are days when we just stick to a schedule and do the book work but too many of those days and we all turn grey (loved that picture Willa!).
I don't think I'd call myself an "unschooler" but like Leonie I'd say we are "unschooly" (though she's A LOT better at it than I am!) and definitely family-centered.
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Leonie
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SallyT wrote:
| We got involved with our local unschoolers, and while we made some good friends, what I discovered -- and maybe this is a function of being in the Bible Belt -- was that "unschoolers" was code for "secular" and "inclusive," which among other things meant that there was a good bit of hostility towards what was perceived as Monolithic Stupid Christianity. |
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Hi Sally, and welcome!
Perhaps your exeriences are coloured, as you say, by living in the "Bible belt". The inclusive groups that I have been involved with here in Australia, have been really that ~ inclusive of all or no religions, inclusive of all forms of homeschooling/unschooling.
I loved hearing about your children and their different personalities - and about your use of MA as an unschooling spine. 
__________________
Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Mary G
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Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
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| Posted: Aug 14 2007 at 8:34am | IP Logged
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ladybugs wrote:
When people hear the word unschool, why is it that it immediately drums up connations of common sense absenteeism?
I mean before the invention of school, how did people learn?
The reason I'm asking is because unschooling and the notion that learning can actually be a pleasant and engrossing pursuit implies a certain lack of discipline to certain folks I know.
This is strictly about academics, mind you, not unparenting...
any thoughts? |
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Maria, I agree -- "unschooling" harkens back to the hippiedays of SF when I was little and only "alternative" folks allowed their children such freedom  so that's where I'm coming from on that -- I was a nice little Catholic school girl, marching off to school in my uniform, and walking just passed "those kids" ... and believe me, some of them were REALLY WILD. And I've seen the product of an unschooling school in North Carolina and that too was pretty wild....
The funny thing about all this discussion about philosophies and defining unschooling is that I keep coming back to the education "rebels" like CM, Montessori, Steiner (Waldorf), Holt and others who all said basically the same thing -- kids have an inherent interest in their environment and WANT to learn and discover. The more we get out of their way, the more the kids can do and learn. It seems to boil down to a "how much" the parent gets out of the way and lets the child direct ... I for one don't agree with the child in COMPLETE control, but that's why I'm an eclectic live/learn at home kinda gal
Another thing that is sometimes easy to forget is that ALL of these philosophies (including Holt, right) were based on adapting the raw philosophy into a school setting ... so CM or Montessori wrote "curriculum" but also encouraged "masterly inactivity" and "self-choosing" ....
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: ??? about Unschooling
