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teachingmyown
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| Posted: June 26 2007 at 3:19pm | IP Logged
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Never being one to make a decision and then stop looking around  , I was looking at Andrew Pudewa's site today and he has so many interesting products. The various writing lessons and the spelling programs for example.
Anyone using his products? I have the Student Intensive Writing program that we have used on and off over the years with some success. Just wondering if there are any other products I should be looking at.
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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Elizabeth
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I'm going to use the American History packs this year with my 7th grader and my 9th grader.I'm so pleased to see the new products. Lots of support for teaching Structure and Style  .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Karen T
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| Posted: June 26 2007 at 9:55pm | IP Logged
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I have and use the main set, Teaching Writing Structure and Style, as well as the SWI B. We also use his poetry memory CDs very successfully. I haven't tried any of the other things yet but would like to.
There is an active yahoo group (link from his website I believe) that discusses all the products very thoroughly.
Karen T
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PDyer
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I'm considering IEW too, the Structure and Style portion. We've been Bravewriter-ing for a while and I'm beginning to believe my son needs a more step-by-step approach. Or maybe I, as the teacher, need a more structured approach... 
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: June 27 2007 at 7:48am | IP Logged
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PDyer wrote:
| I'm considering IEW too, the Structure and Style portion. We've been Bravewriter-ing for a while and I'm beginning to believe my son needs a more step-by-step approach. Or maybe I, as the teacher, need a more structured approach... |
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I don't think it's either--or. I think there's a need for both. And I'm glad to hear you used Bravewriter first. Bravewriter nurtures BRAVE writers. That is, they are unafraid of the writing process and unintimidated by blank paper. That's a good thing to have going into IEW. I use IEW for a season in early middle school and then again --with the advanced course--in high school. I'd never use it earlier than that. you don't want to raise a formulaic writer. You want a fluent writer who can learn how to use structure and style techniques. Get them narrating fluently first, then teach them tricks!
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 27 2007 at 9:43am | IP Logged
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I wouldn't necessarily say not to use IEW in younger grades. We tried all kinds of creative things and some of my dc would not narrate at all - well informal narration as in family dinner discussions but nothing beyond that either orally or in writing. They seemed to have this block about how to organize their thoughts. I had both a 4th grader and a 6th grader who absolutly refused to write anything at all. My 4th grader hated to write and told me so. I made him take this coop class. I know we dealt with a lot of delays, etc. but we had a co-op that used this program and my 4th grader whom I was still trying to get to write at all. I figured having some sort of outside accountability would help at least make sure he wrote and I really didn't much pay attention to the program used. They were using the IEW program. My ds just took off and about 1 month into the progam, he told me writing is his favorite thing. Now he will write things on what he is reading, etc. and has fun with it. My other at least writes some. They each still developed their own style. I'm so happy to have them writing anything and now we can develop from here.
My oldest was actually harmed by the formulaic approach when introduced to it in upper middle/high school and lost confidence in her own natural style, which was restored when we dropped all writing programs and just had her write and gave encouragement. She wrote naturally as a youngster - mini stories for her sis etc. We are overflowing with all the little stories she initiated on her own. She was a very creative, artsy type. My other dd is so creative, nothing seems to hamper that and she had fun with this program simply because she loved to write - but I don't think it was particularly helpful to her. Neither was it harmful - she was in 8th at the time and only did it for half the year. It was a game to her to see how interesting she could make her assignments while still sticking to the formulas. She was great at it, but we decided not to continue doing this the 2nd half - mostly because of time constraints. She had fun, wasn't hurt by it - but it wasn't of any real particular use to her either. She needed to get Algebra and Biology done - both of which she was avoiding.
The style you use in actual writing depends on what you are writing. My oldest had a hard time moving from the creative/personal essay style to a more formal essay on content area. A brief foray into the formulaic helped her to make sure she proved her points, etc. but for a while she really truncated her style. Doing IEW early with this child would have been detrimental. My 2nd dd just writes and loves feedback for her writing from whomever. I don't need a program with her, just someone knowledgeable to review her papers. This child is so much into doing things her own way that her biggest problem is paying attention to directions in the first place. Even cooking, she never follows a recipe, sometimes with disasterous results. So she has to learn to balance her own independent creativity with a sense of when it is appropriate to consult a "formula" for guidance. IEW was a game for her. She took it as a challenge to make her style work in an engaging way while meeting the requirements in the program. If this had been taken as a serious writing course for her, I'm not sure she would have fared so well.
My sons, on the other hand, who love the IEW program are very, very science and math inclined. They were headed in the direction of being the engineers who cannot write. I was still trying to get them both to write anything. We'd tried creative, narration, story writing, writing on what is a passion ... I was lucky if they even used complete sentences, had any order or coherance at all. And worst, they fought writing with all they had. They would rather have had their limbs torn off than to write anything. Neither was all that fond of relying on mom for anything and both hated copywork, dictation, narration with a passion I wasn't sure we'd overcome. I don't know if it makes a difference but these 2 are more into fixing things, trouble shooting electronics problems, building model planes, looking up/doing science type things. If they had to put anything in writing, they would run the other directon even in these favorite activities. My 10 yo wouldn't even consistently organize his materials, let alone his ideas - more like the absent minded professor type. IEW was perfect for him. I just know that in a very short time this ds became enthused about writing and began to use this to share his ideas outside of just assignments. That was an unbelievable jump for this child. I know the mom who taught this co-op was an engineer and never liked writing until she tried this with her own dc and it gave her confidence to write. Now that he is writing, he is actually putting a lot of himself into it and learning to vary in style. Perhaps there is something to the kind of inclinations you have and what helps writing click for you. I wish we'd found this even earlier for the ds.
I would say, look at the child and don't worry. If it works, go for it. No program is the magic cure for everyone. It is expensive and I have not used the program personally - just the coop teacher with my son. I think seeing and sharing each others writing and seeing other styles is a major help- regardless of which approach you use.
Now, I'm not a writer and am not as qualified to speak on writing programs, but this seems to be the way things work in our house. Some programs/methods/whatever work for some of ours and some work for others.
Janet
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PDyer
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| Posted: June 27 2007 at 12:37pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Bravewriter nurtures BRAVE writers. That is, they are unafraid of the writing process and unintimidated by blank paper. That's a good thing to have going into IEW. |
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Oy, if I'm reading this correctly you're saying it's best to be being unafraid of writing and unintimidated by blank paper before going into IEW? We don't have those prerequisites here...
One of the reasons I am considering IEW is because he responds to very concrete directions. This last year he loved the exercises at the end of LOG Level D where he was asked to improve given sentences by adding a introductory preposition phrase *here or an adjective or adverb *there. We tried a Bravewriter class and it was beneficial but there were still far too many tears for my taste.
So I thought maybe this child who benefits from living a Bravewriter lifestyle may need more specific tools to develop his own personal voice...does that make any sense? I sense the voice is there, but it's afraid to come out...
Elizabeth wrote:
| I use IEW for a season in early middle school and then again --with the advanced course--in high school. |
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He's going to be in sixth (a young sixth grader, July birthday), so it sounds like the timing may be right.
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: June 27 2007 at 12:43pm | IP Logged
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Patty,
I think you have a good sense of what your child needs. And you do have the lifestyle in place. I've used IEW with a children who aren't mine before they are comfortable, fluent writers. The problem I've noticed is that the take the tools of IEW and use only them--losing any chance at their own voices. So the pieces end up formulaic and lacking feeling.If you think your child is ready for IEW or that it's the nudge he needs to get over the hump, by all means, go for it! Your opinion should trump mine. And if you decide it isn't working, you can always back off and come back to it later.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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PDyer
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Elizabeth wrote:
Patty,
I think you have a good sense of what your child needs. And you do have the lifestyle in place. I've used IEW with a children who aren't mine before they are comfortable, fluent writers. The problem I've noticed is that the take the tools of IEW and use only them--losing any chance at their own voices. So the pieces end up formulaic and lacking feeling.If you think your child is ready for IEW or that it's the nudge he needs to get over the hump, by all means, go for it! Your opinion should trump mine. And if you decide it isn't working, you can always back off and come back to it later. |
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, Elizabeth.  I am concerned about his writing becoming formulaic, but I'm also concerned about the fact we've been Bravewriter-ing for two years now and I don't feel like we're getting very far. I'm not quite sure *what to do, and I don't want to spend that much money on a program that may only frustrate him further...
I'm mulling over what you said about getting him narrating fluently. This child is not a big communicator, and his voice is very quiet *verbally, so it stands to reason that his voice is going to be nearly silent in writing.
Thinking out loud...I do plan to use Novel Inquiries for fifth and sixth grade next year. Maybe we should really focus on discussing those four books in depth and doing the writing therein together and see where that takes us.
Obviously I'm not comfortable teaching my child in this area... 
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Patty
Mom of ds (7/96) and dd (9/01) and two angels (8/95 and 6/08)
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Sarah
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| Posted: June 27 2007 at 2:06pm | IP Logged
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PDyer wrote:
I'm not quite sure *what to do, and I don't want to spend that much money on a program that may only frustrate him further...
Obviously I'm not comfortable teaching my child in this area... |
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Patty,
I have a 6th grade son, who is young. . .a July b-day (he'll be just 11 next month), too. I am also feeling like you do. . .that I don't know what to do for next year. He's my oldest and I don't like feeling like his edication is one big experiment!
Lingua Mater?
tweak Intermediate Lang. Lessons?
Brave Writer?
IEW?
Seton?
Part of my problem, also, is that I cannot SEE these programs BEFORE we buy them. Not sure what to do. . .
Keep me posted on what you are going to choose and anyone elses advice is very much appreciated. . .
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Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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Jamberry77
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His CD of his talk on music is excellent, even going into why some modern Christian music is not so good.
Excellent for convincing parents of the need for classical music for kids (listening, and preferably playing) before the age of 6.
Kelly
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ALmom
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| Posted: June 27 2007 at 11:58pm | IP Logged
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I know Elizabeth is more qualified as a writer to speak on this topic, but our personal experience is so much different than the cautions described.
I know when we joined the coop and did IEW, we did NOT have our 2 boys unafraid of the writing process or unintimidated by the blank page. They were both extremely intimidated - to the max!!! My 10 yo loves writing now, and IEW in a classroom setting once per week for the year made a huge difference. Actually, he told me how much fun he was having after the first month even though he knew he went in thinking this was a course he'd have to live through in order to take the robotics. I know there were some very creative writers in the class who modeled a variety of ways to use language even while following the formula.
I didn't follow this at home other than in editing the papers for this IEW class. He used it as a jumping off point to get over the writing reluctance. I don't know that we would use it year after year, etc. but it was a joy to see the writing block finally disappear after all those years of nothing helping.
I can only say that I am immensely pleased with the results. I suspect 2 things made the difference in why this worked for these 2 boys - esp. the younger one. One factor was the group setting which meant they were inspired by other students and not just dealing with a formula to fit into program (the boys in the class were all competing to see who could get the most laughs, etc.)and the other factor, I suspect, has to do with the very, very predominant inclination to the math and sciences where this just fit his particular need to have structure placed first and then explore from there.
I have never used bravewriter so I cannot speak to this program in comparison. I do know we did a lot of the type of things people have said bravewriter does - and this child just would not write. Now he does. It isn't stunning prose, but it is tons better than where we were even 6 months ago.
There were a whole lot of other children who found the same thing to be true. Maybe it has to do with being in a town that is all about math and science. It is the most crowded co-op class.
Those who didn't care for it were folks who already had really good writers or people who liked to write. They felt too constricted.
Patty, is there a way you could borrow the program and use it for a few months just to see how it worked? Then if you didn't care for it, you wouldn't be out so much money if you found that something else is a better fit for you. I know I'd looked at purchasing it for many years but just didn't feel like I could risk the money for one more program. We just happened to get the exposure to it in the co-op class.
Janet
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humanaevitae
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Thank you Janet for sharing your in-depth personal experiences. It makes a lot of sense to me as I was one that HATED creative writing but did well after I learned some tricks and specifics.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Institute for Excellence in Writing
