4Real Forums: Do you consider yourself radical

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chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 19 2007 at 10:15pm \| IP Logged

I was wondering how many Catholic unschoolers consider themselves radical unschoolers. I have been reading radical unschoolers blogs and pondering many points, and questioning many points! Where do Catholics draw the line with disipline, direction, and order? I don't have a set idea I am honestly asking.

chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 19 2007 at 10:16pm \| IP Logged

BTW .....I don't consider myself radical, but I think most school at home moms would!

lapazfarm
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Posted: Jan 19 2007 at 10:34pm \| IP Logged

Perhaps I am wrong, but honestly, I do not see how it would be possible to be both Catholic and a true radical unschooler. If radical unschooling includes the radical parenting beliefs that it is wrong to guide, direct, and discipline your children, that the parent has no "right" to impose his will upon his child, and that a child will somehow independantly know, define, and strive to meet his own needs (intellectual, spiritual, nutritional, etc) without parental "interference," then it is in many ways contrary to Catholic teachings on the responsibilities of parenthood.
Please feel free to correct any misconceptions, but this is my understanding of the true radical unschooling philosophy.
I consider myself a "relaxed" homeschooler in that I let my dc choose the topic and preferred methods of their education, while I direct the day-to-day activities. It is a far cry from school-at-home, and some may call what we do unschooling or "unschoolish", but I definitely make the distinction because of the association with radical philosophy, which I completely disagree with.
Just my 2 cents.

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Cay Gibson
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Posted: Jan 19 2007 at 10:51pm \| IP Logged

I had to

at Theresa comment "I consider myself a 'relaxed' homeschooler..." Yep

, me too. I mean, I am a relaxed homeschooler too.

Molly, have you read "Hsing with Gentleness"?
What were your thoughts?

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chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 19 2007 at 11:07pm \| IP Logged

I read that a couple of years ago. I remember not being that impressed! Meaning more her actual conversion to the method. Again that was a couple of years ago, and my brain is a seive, so perhaps it deserves a good revisit!
Using the term relaxed "hser" reminds me of Mary Hood, I really like her methods and reasoning!
I do let my children decided what they want to study, I strew things that "I" want to interest them, I am considering implementing some mandatory "must do everyday" just to cover our hind ends!

JodieLyn
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Posted: Jan 20 2007 at 2:06am \| IP Logged

I have a friend who says (and I find it very appropriate.. and it fits me too)

I unschool.. I do NOT unparent.

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Paula in MN
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Posted: Jan 20 2007 at 6:50am \| IP Logged

JodieLyn wrote:

I unschool.. I do NOT unparent.

I love it!

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Leonie
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Posted: Jan 20 2007 at 10:49pm \| IP Logged

We were pretty radical for a few years. Can I admit that here and still be a Catholic homeschooler?

By radical I mean unschooling wrt education and parenting - giving kids even more choices re self regulation and trusting even more on God and the Holy Spirit.

Now, many people here IRL still consider us pretty radical

but I think we are less so. Dh and I direct more - with discussion, yes, but sometimes things just have to be a particular way because we
(mum and dad) believe it is best.

Why the shift? Why do I say we are unschooly rather than unschoolers?

I became unhappy with the direction of some unschooling email lists and IRL groups and this affected my thinking. Some of my kids showed me that they liked more goals and direction. Dh and I were unhappy with some of the choices made.

So, yes, we have less rules than most of our IRL homeschooling or Catholic schooling friends. Yes, the kids have great input and many days we don't look like we do a lot of formal work. Others consider us "freeing" ( that word gets used a lot by my friends now we live in Sydney!

) but I wouldn't say we are radical or unschoolers - just an unschooly real learning CM homeschooling family.

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chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 20 2007 at 11:26pm \| IP Logged

Thanks Leonie, I thinkI feel better already. As I stated earlier I was considering implementing "must do"s, yet tonight I took 2 dd's out shopping with me and I was blown away listening to them share with me about money, percentages, and so many other topics. Funny, my list of "must do's" were all covered in normal life situations tonight and I feel like God was saying it is OK! My eldest dd even reminded me that I need to load her MP3 player with Latin to memorize for mass! WOW! Even Latin is interesting when applied to life! Praise God!
So if I seem radical, OK as long as feel peaceful about my dc education I will continue.....

lapazfarm
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Posted: Jan 20 2007 at 11:37pm \| IP Logged

I think there is a way of turning "must do's" into "let's do's." What I mean is if you present the info you want them to learn in a way that appeals to their learning style, personality, whatever, then even must do's become activities that they enjoy doing and want to do for the pleasure of learning. We all want to learn, after all. God made us to yearn to know Him and understand His creation. It's the rigidity that many of us balk at. I say lose the rigidity but not the learning!

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chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 20 2007 at 11:45pm \| IP Logged

Well stated Theresa

Leonie
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 6:48am \| IP Logged

molly wrote:

Well stated Theresa

Yep, very nice.

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Leonie in Sydney
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Mary G
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 11:10am \| IP Logged

There are times I wish I were a bit more radical -- more willing to completely dump the "school at home" comfort zone and relax and let the kids lead a bit more. It's hard when my memories of school are of fun but lots of workbooks and repetitive junk (I flunked 2nd grade spelling because I flat out refused to do the workbook -- so I was pretty militant from a young age

)

I love JodieLyn's quote -- I unschool I don't unparent. I think it's reasonable to ask kids to learn things they might not want to....I just wish I was better at letting them have their way a bit more and less from me.....

Bottom line, Molly is that I'm the antithesis of radical -- I'm much too wimpy for that!

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chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 12:35pm \| IP Logged

I don't know Mary is it wimpy or temperment? Does our schooling experience form our HS model? Is it something else, ie temperments? I come from a California public schools of the 70's and 80's, and frankly I don't think I can do any worse than than they did! I HATED school I never want my dc to experience those endless hours of boredom.
BTW Mary I don't believe for 1 minute you are anything other than a model of Christian mothers!!!

Willa
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 12:52pm \| IP Logged

I have been thinking about your questions all morning, Molly, but can't get my thoughts together in order to write a post that would be short enough not to be a book, but still say what I wanted to say

Bottom line is, I guess, that I agree with and respect a lot of the RU principles, especially in parenting:

They call it "mindful parenting" which to me is an evocative phrase and sums up a lot of what I am trying to do myself. I think it is very Catholic.

John Bosco says something a bit similar in his ideas on Preventive Discipline.

I actually get stuck more on the education part of it, and as I ponder that, I think it's because education is more artificial than parenting.

Chesterton says children aren't born with an innate desire or natural trigger to learn Greek verb forms or put their collars straight. At most, they are born with the capacity to develop these skills.   In some cultures it may not be necessary to learn these things at all.   They are only indirectly related to character or moral formation.

A huge percentage of parenting is about modelling (environment) and forming habits in the heart of the domestic church.   It takes thought and care but it can happen in a very real and ordinary life.   You can teach principles of hygiene, order and regularity, and the Ten Commandments, just by living and reflecting on living.

But "education" meaning enculturation-- it seems that it goes beyond just daily life to what you want to BRING to daily life.   Especially in a culture like ours, where we as Christians are called to stand outside it a bit.

That makes no sense: probably I have to drag in Thomas Aquinas.   He says that the most effective and "real" way to learn is by discovery, "inventio".

However, it would be difficult and a bit inefficient to learn EVERYTHING simply by discovery.   So that's where teaching "disciplina" comes in.

However, teaching should as closely as possible imitate how people learn naturally.   Which is what it sounds like you are doing gracefully and "naturally" in your own home, Molly.

Obviously we could easily live life and never learn Latin, and possibly function OK in today's world without it.   However, Latin is good and noble to learn, but a mom can do a lot by environment and delightful habits and inspiring ideas to make the children ready to learn Latin and content to do so, and able to learn from it and not be harmed by the methods.

I see that once again, I'd have to write out a long LONG post to really make any sense -- but maybe you can read between the lines?

To say it another way -- in some ways I am trying to teach my children more than I learned myself when I was growing up.   So I have to consciously bring things into my home that AREN'T part of my natural normal "default" life. Some of the best things in our home have come about by looking for MORE, that is beyond my own natural scope and beyond our modern-day culture's scope.

I have to think in terms specifically of Education, what I want education to be for my children, to actually reach beyond the ordinary day to day life.

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chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 1:20pm \| IP Logged

So Willa to over simplify your lovely thoughts, is'nt that strewing???? We constantly encourage our dc to go out of their comfort zones, we just don't force endless hours of repetition or contrived sources of knowledge. And Willa or anyone else please give me feedback on this article as it seems contrary to your position, and my pea brain is trying to process and form opinions.
http://www.unschooling.info/articles/article3.htm

Leonie
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 3:20pm \| IP Logged

Molly, the one thing that makes me cringe about the article is actually the example used by the author - his wife. The author points out how his wife does not know literature, for example, but is a deep thinker, a physician, well educated, etc. I am sure she is all these things.

But why does this make me cringe? I think because the author does not give us the impression that his wife is continuing to learn - to realize "Hey, I know a lot about some things and I enjoy thinking about them and contributing to society. But when people talk about literature I have no idea. Maybe I'm missing somethng here? I'll continue with my self education and read literature and broaden my horizons."

To me, education/being educated does tend to mean having a thirst for knowledge and for thought/discussion, self learning, never stopping learning...throughout life.

In part, that is why I like unschooling - it tends to encourage and feed this thirst for self learning. And in part, that is why I am no longer radical - I wanted to add to our life, to add some "let's do" to our days and weeks - rather than just an reliance on strewing. For me a "let's do" has a bit more emphasis than strewing. A stronger encouragment for areas that my sons may not naturally feel an attraction for, even via strewing and example. Areas that are important, that we parents see as having value ~ areas that are noble and good, as Willa said so well.

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julia s.
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 3:34pm \| IP Logged

molly wrote:

Molly,
I'm going to use your quote as an example, but I want to start off by saying that I don't think you are the type of parent I'm about to describe.

What you described is the kind of argument that a lot of radical unschooling parents use to justify never structuring their children's learning and I have to disagree. It is true that God gives us as parents many graces (especially when we're weary from all the structure), but it is lopsided and egocentric to see it only from that perspective too. God gives children graces too. Sometimes these are to compensate for parental involvement in their education. Sometimes to compensate for parental compassion too.

The grace you received by going to the store with your kids came from the ground you laid with them that was not unschooled. My biggest problem with kids who grew up radically unschooled is that they never test themselves outside their peer relations. They very rarely go to a formal education or stay in one and often I notice they drift from thing to thing. Their parents often appauld this as the continuation of a learning lifestyle, but what is the purpose of always learning if you still don't know your true passion? And more importantly the role God asks you to play on this earth in the very short time you are here?

Education in the classical sense teaches you about the human condition not just the self. Radical unschooling is hyper focused on the self, and this becomes defeating and limiting by nature. It is the pure intention of classical education that separates it from other forms. And I think no matter what style of education you choose it should have some basis in this and it can't be derived at by following your own bliss. It takes discipline to strive to be better than our human condition and rise above the stain of sin.

[Edited for clarity of final paragraph]

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chicken lady
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 4:26pm \| IP Logged

Wow Julia it sounds as if you have some very negative experiences with unschoolers. Where have you met all these grown unschooled children, I would love to meet some and pick their brains?

ladybugs
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Posted: Jan 21 2007 at 4:53pm \| IP Logged

This is an interesting thread.

I've been reading most of the posts and I'd have to say that our family sounds alot like Leonie's, Theresa's and Molly's.

Willa, I want to read your post in its entirety - I hope to do that later.

I have found that learning can be found naturally in so many ways of our lives and I've always been amazed and impressed with how learning naturally happens in our conversations. Just this morning, on the way to Mass, Isabella asked me about John Brown and the Abolitionist movement. Interestingly, at Mass, our priest spoke about slavery and abolitionist movement and its relationship with abortion....

It really was a Holy Spirit moment and what a remarkable way to further impress upon my daughter the reality of the evils of slavery and abortion.

Better run for now though...I am making Dawn's Lemon Snowball cookies and the first batch is done!

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