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Elizabeth
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I started to hijack my own science thread and instead decided to move that part of it here:
Elizabeth wrote:
Karen E. wrote:
| I think that tie-in works well with that age, laying a foundation for understanding that it is God who *made* science, rather than viewing science as something divorced from faith. |
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Karen,
I don't want to hijack my own thread, but you've hit on something that is keeping me up at night. As I look at all the Latin Centered discussions, and even agree that some of those materials are probably academically superior to CHC and that simplicity is a good thing, I can't help but be very hesitant to sacrifice this aspect of CHC. CHC does a very, very good job of laying a foundation for understanding that it is God who is the underpinning of everything. I'm being very careful to make sure that I don't go so far towards Memoria Press (which I know has God--it just doesn't touch the hearts of my children like CHC) that I lose what I've liked best about this year: total immersion in faith for all of us. |
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Thoughts anyone?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Donna
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Elizabeth wrote:
| CHC does a very, very good job of laying a foundation for understanding that it is God who is the underpinning of everything. . |
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Isn't that why we are here...to know, love and serve the Lord, and to be happy with Him forever in Heaven.
That is why I am following CHC this coming year, to allow my children to be totally immersed in our Faith in a way that touches their heart.
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Wendy
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Elizabeth said: **I'm being very careful to make sure that I don't go so far towards Memoria Press (which I know has God--it just doesn't touch the hearts of my children like CHC)**
I think you've hit on it here, Elizabeth. I think Memoria Press, Highlands Latin School, and LCC, because they're not overtly Catholic, don't have the same religious "style" (I can't think of a better word for it) as CHC.
Elizabeth said: **"CHC does a very, very good job of laying a foundation for understanding that it is God who is the underpinning of everything..."**
I agree, but I think MP/HLS/LCC does, too. If you look at Highlands Latin School's curriculum, they use great Catholic authors -- St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, G.K. Chesterton, Peter Kreeft -- almost exclusively in high school Christian studies, after studying the Bible thoroughly in elementary and middle school. Seniors read Cardinal Newman, J.R.R. Tolkien, Evelyn Waugh, and Flannery O’Connor in their English studies class, “The Christian Response to the Modern World.” They use a history text by Christopher Dawson -- Dynamics of World History. And the Kristin Lavransdatter trilogy is on their summer reading list.
What I like about the MP/Highlands/LCC approach (besides the Tomie de Paola saints stories recommended in the early years  ) is the *simplicity* that you mentioned. I can add catechism lessons (also recommended, depending on the family’s faith, in LCC), saints stories, and Cay’s magnificent Mosaic without becoming too overwhelmed.
I love the *idea* of CHC, but every time we’ve tried to use their materials, they fall flat. I used to feel bad about that, and worry that we were “not Catholic enough,”  but I have come to realize that CHC is just not our style.
And therein lies the beauty of homeschooling. Each family can "become who they are," to paraphrase John Paul the Great. 
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Elizabeth
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Wendy,
I'm at a distinct disadvantage because my copy of LCC is being shipped as I sit here. But, is the Highlands Latin School Curriculum in that book or is it elsewhere? It sounds intriguing and very Catholic. I'd be curious to hear about the lower grades, too.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Elizabeth
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Oops! Found The Highlands Latin School Curriculum. I'll catch up; I promise!
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lapazfarm
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We used CHC briefly and that infusion of the faith into all aspects of the curriculum was the thing I REALLY liked about it. The format of the materials (workbooks, etc) was not our style, so we switched to unit-studies, mostly, but I was sad to leave CHC behind for that reason. I'm not exactly sure why, but CHC really does touch the heart in a way other curricula do not seem to.
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StephanieA
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<What I like about the MP/Highlands/LCC approach (besides the Tomie de Paola saints stories recommended in the early years ) is the *simplicity* that you mentioned. I can add catechism lessons (also recommended, depending on the family’s faith, in LCC), saints stories, and Cay’s magnificent Mosaic without becoming too overwhelmed.>
Dear Wendy,
I checked out the Highland's curriculum, but I am not seeing the simplicity. A fourth grader would take Latin, Math, Music, Memoria Christian Studies, Read Famous Men of Rome, etc. for history, English lit list, American Modern Studies (memorization of places, people, etc., and science.
I can't even imagine trying to follow their schedule with 2 little ones, and a 1st, 3rd, 6th, 8th, and an 11th grader.
Where's the simplicity in this schedule? Throw read alouds in there and nature study and wooh...I'd be burnt out the first month.
Or do you just choose to do the Latin, math, and music, and religion as you mentioned earlier and not really follow their schedule? If this is the case, then it would be more simple. But the issue comes in, especially in high school that science needs to be covered, writing needs to be taught, government should be studied (especially giving the Catholic slant to government), etc. The Highland high school looks very rigorous to me. They add more subjects to the already long list, like logic and Socratic discussions on literature. Scicnce in high school begins with Biology culminating with AP Physics.
I don't see LCC being so simple. To me, it's adding Latin earlier than most kids are ready for. My kids wanted to be identifying butterflies, studying historical figures, listening to engaging read alouds, studying the lives of the saints....not chanting Latin in 3rd and 4th grade (although we did it).
I have taught Latina Christiana 1 and 2, Schola Latina, and Henle's (to 2 high schoolers). The concept behind LCC is not new. It's, well, ancient It is just that someone has written it down in a book in a very readable format.
On the surface it seems to some an answer to a busy homeschooling mother's prayers. My experience has found it anything but simple. Then again I am working from a non-classical background, and I only know Latin enough to teach a little over 1/2 of Henle's. But how to really do this surfaces later in high school when I feel the need to formalize history, science, logic, etc. a bit more for the child's sake (especially when they are internally motivated to do XYZ subject).
I nannied in New York City in the 80's for a family who sent two of their sons to a classical school. Latin was highly emphasized, as was Greek. Their schedule was rigorous and LONG. They brought home no less than 3-4 hours of homework on the weekdays, and these kids were in 5th and 8th grades. Part of my job was to see that all the homework was completed. History alone took about an hour a night to study. Math was excelled (full algebra in 7th grade, Algebra 2 in 8th). This school had a huge waiting list. As soon as some parents in my family's social circle knew they were expecting, they signed their boys up at this school.
How are you using LCC to keep life simple and still providing a workable curriculum for your kids....especially in the high school years?
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Elizabeth
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I don't see the simplicity either, particularly since I'm pretty attached to these books and I've really seen them bear fruit. That said, perhaps it is the priority I should consider: do Latin and math first and then fit in the rest. [Personally, I plan for "religion" first, whether it's a liturgical craft or a Mosaic bedtime story.]
Going with the Latin and math first idea, there is simplicity in that there is room to include those things particular to each family. A curriculum can give priority to Latin and math in two different homes and look very different in each.
Another point to consider is that the Highlands school doesn't even begin Latin study until second grade. I certainly would fill those toddler-first grade years with lovely picture books, much more so than with myths and fairy tales. The ancients didn't have Beatrix Potter and Cynthia Rylant and Eric Carle and Barbara Cooney. They didn't have four color printing and big, glossy pages. We do! And that is a great and glorious thing! While simplicity is nice, I don't want to limit myself into a poverty of thoughts and images and language.
And then there is the other end of the spectrum. Stephanie keeps reminding us of the very real demands of high school "requirements." As Drew likes to remind people, "If your child has not read Homer in Greek by age 18, the sky will not fall!" Certainly not, but if you send him out in the world without knowing personal finance, a solid understanding of American government, and a firm foundation in Catholic aoplogetics and morality, you have failed to prepare him for adulthood. Add in the core requirements most colleges want to see and lots and lots of time for real life work experiences and suddenly, this Latin-centered approach looks much less simple and possibly, downright impractical. I"m nearly finished preparing a child to leave home and, honestly, I don't know where we would have found the time to study Greek. He worked hard and wasted little time. He can look on his days here and say that he did indeed recive a fine education, but he does not know Greek.
Let me repeat: I see the point of beginning with Latin and math and assuring that it be done every day. I can see how the discipline of Latin and math do train the brain.And I'm planning on using a good chunk of Memoria products in the coming year. But I also see how picture books and Little House and liturgical crafts and nature study engages the heart and lifts the soul.
And then I see how the big kids need plenty of time to learn the lessons well-adjusted adults need to know. They NEED time to practice being social beings in an adult world. They NEED finance and health and morality and government and a solid knowledge of United States history and twentieth century world history. If we study the ancients so as to learn from their rise and fall, shouldn't we study the lessons learned by our grandparents? Can't we devote a LOT of time to Witness to Hope? I can't think of a finer living book on the meaning of the 20th century. I want my children to have a living faith. To do that, I think they need a living education. While simplicity is appealing, I'm much more inclined to the richness of a finely woven tapestry.That doesn't mean the cluttered curriculum of much busy-ness but it does mean an abundance of living ideas.
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Karen E.
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Elizabeth wrote:
As I look at all the Latin Centered discussions, and even agree that some of those materials are probably academically superior to CHC and that simplicity is a good thing, I can't help but be very hesitant to sacrifice this aspect of CHC. CHC does a very, very good job of laying a foundation for understanding that it is God who is the underpinning of everything. I'm being very careful to make sure that I don't go so far towards Memoria Press (which I know has God--it just doesn't touch the hearts of my children like CHC) that I lose what I've liked best about this year: total immersion in faith for all of us. |
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To be honest, I haven't really followed the Latin Centered Curriculum thread *at all* so far -- until just now, as I've tried to do a quick catch-up. So, I'm not in a very good position to comment on the scheduling of days, the rigor of the academics, etc. I really need to think more about it. The only Latin we've done is some "English From the Roots Up" and that has been hit-and-miss. 
But, here's what it comes down to for me -- as you said, Elizabeth: "laying a foundation for understanding that it is God who is the underpinning of everything."
Thus, no matter what I do with my kids, or what materials I use, this is the emphasis of our homeschool. I try to infuse everything with the idea that we are here to know, love and serve God, and I can do that via discussion (which is why I repeatedly say I love our read-alouds -- they give us the opportunities to discuss everything) if we aren't using curriculum that helps me do it.
So, even if I'm just cobbling together some science curriculum from scattered resources we have around the house, *I* can supply the missing "faith piece" in our discussions. For example, this year we're going to be looking at cells, DNA, genetics, animal classification, seeds, flowers and plants, the solar system and something else I'm forgetting. I don't have Catholic or Christian resources on hand for any of these topics -- I'll be using books we have around, and the library. But I plan to talk about God throughout these studies -- it's impossible to leave Him out, when one considers the miracles that are inherent in creation.
So, I don't see the question so much as one of whether or not the curriculum handles that infusion for us. If it does, and if we also love the curriculum, I'd say stick with it. Elizabeth, it sounds as if you really love CHC and that it works for you, too (also a key factor!) Why switch?
But, if you did switch for some reason, I still think you could and would infuse your studies with your faith. Because you can't help it. Because you love God and He will be part of your homeschool no matter what. However, you have seven kids and I only have three, one of whom isn't school age ... CHC is probably a very do-able way to ensure that the infusion is happening when you can't be there for seven different discussions with seven different kids at seven different levels. I have the luxury of still doing an awful lot with my two oldest girls together (though that's changing as Emily gets older.... I'm suddenly starting to look at the teen forums with amazement and a whole new level of anxiety!
 )
I'm not sure if I addressed the heart of the thread ... I've been interrupted about seven times, so obviously I need to get off this computer.
Bottom line for me -- always -- our lives must revolve around God. However we make that work is what we should do. And there are lots of valid ways to make it work.
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Karen E.
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Kristie 4
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Elizabeth, you said this so wonderfully...a rich tapestry. This was living water for my soul today.
Kristie
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Elizabeth
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Karen E. wrote:
| Elizabeth, it sounds as if you really love CHC and that it works for you, too (also a key factor!) Why switch? |
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Ahh, you caught me ! I'm not entirely sure that the workbooks (Language of God, spelling, handwriting) are really necessary or that they do a superior job to narration with mom editing, spelling in context or AVKO spelling, and copywork, none of which cost me a penny. What they do is lay it all out for me in an orderly fashion. They buy me a sense of security but is false security? And they are there, through thick and thin, even when I can't get my act together. The faith infusion was a happy surprise and it's what keeps me coming back. But, if I'm going to use workbooks, are these the academic best? AND, do I even need workbooks at all? I'm still going to do narration,word study and copywork. I'm still going to drag our vast collection of living books into everything. And now, I'm adding Latin and contemplating Christian studies and Famous Men of Rome and a whole different study of myths than the one I did previously. Suddenly, this isn't simple at all . There is only so much time and so much money. How best to spend it?
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Elizabeth
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Okay, that was pretty rambling. My basement was flooding so I was more than a little distracted. Ten towels later, and I'm good to finish a thought .
Another benefit of CHC that I don't see in any Latin-centered approach I've read yet (except a little in Laura Berquist) is that it can be tailored. Through and through, you are encouraged by CHC to consider the child--each unique child--and to tailor the program of study to the child. I truly believe that is what God has entrusted us to do. All the Latin websites I've seen are very prescribed. That may be because most of them are schools and so they must have a standard curriculum. But it seems that there is a set progression--a system, if you will--that denies the child's gifts, weaknesses and interests. If we are encouraging our children to consider what God wants for them (whether in studies or sports or arts or friends), can we just hand them all the same program of study and say it's God's will?
My kids, with one exception,  CHC materials. That one exception is very drawn to Memoria Press Christian Studies and Classical Studies, but he is balking at Latin and Math.
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Karen E.
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Elizabeth wrote:
All the Latin websites I've seen are very prescribed. That may be because most of them are schools and so they must have a standard curriculum. But it seems that there is a set progression--a system, if you will--that denies the child's gifts, weaknesses and interests. If we are encouraging our children to consider what God wants for them (whether in studies or sports or arts or friends), can we just hand them all the same program of study and say it's God's will?
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Yes! I think you've hit on exactly what my gut reaction is to some of the Latin websites. They seem to tout that if you employ "This Method" the result will be "A Person Who Was Clearly Educated By This Method." It feels very robotic to me, very much as if we're then trying to "create" a certain type of person. I automatically react against that and feel very uncomfortable with it.
Of course I'm not saying it's de facto wrong or bad to go classical, or that people here who use stricter classical curricula are doing that -- only that the whole thing *could* go wrong if we think that by using a certain method we'll sculpt a child into our idea of the perfect person.
If it happens to be the best fit, that's great. But I don't happen to believe that reading and speaking Greek is the best fit for every, single child. It couldn't be. It's like saying every flower should be a rose. Where would we be without lilies and irises and that plain but quite lovable carnation?
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Karen E.
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Kim F
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Somehow I got myself hooked up with that thingamabob that shoots the forum messages to your inbox so I actually have been keeping up. This thread caught my eye because Elizabeth and I have been discussing variations of latin centered educ. at length this week.
Here is an important distinguisher for me - the latin school sites are primarily neo-classical which is exactly what Andrew Campbell warns against. They have no draw for me anymore. I think most are joyless and rigid. However I DO like his idea of decluttering education. It reminds me of Julia Fogassey's model years back - latin, history/lit/faith/art in incorporated study and then a biology class in high school. Some of us may want to add more here and there but the gist is that latin should theoretically be able to cover most language skills. So why these sites do English grammar on top is beyond me.
Also I think most of us have done CM for some or all of our homeschooling at various times. While I admire CHC's success in weaving the faith through their books one could argue that Seton and other Catholic schools do also. They would also argue that if your workbook was not Catholic there was a problem. Most of us would have discounted that concern because we knew our homeschools were infused with the Faith by our very lives and all our reading. I guess I am confused by the sudden drive to have Catholic workbooks? Or workbooks at all.
Kim
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Elizabeth
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Kim F wrote:
I guess I am confused by the sudden drive to have Catholic workbooks? Or workbooks at all.
Kim |
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The "handwriting workbook" is a copy book. At the lower ages, it's letters and words (often words of religious nature). At the older level, it's scripture and Mass prayers. So, it's copywork, all chosen and bound for you on pages with lines.
The spelling book is pretty much word families, again with "religious" words generously sprinkled. There are quotes from the saints and nuggests of catechism sprinkled throughout. In the lower grades, spelling is pohnics study, keyed to the readers.
Language of God is a worktext, used where someone might use Voyages in English. You could make an argument that no grammar book is ever needed, but you could also argue that it's nice to know they're getting it and you aren't having to re-invent the wheel. Language of God is full of catechism reinforcement. The blanks you fill in are meaningful blanks. There is definitely catechesis happening. .Stories with a Viewcan't really be called a workbook. It's a bound picture and poetry study to inspire narration.
In the middle years, when LoG and Stories with a View are finished, they move to Lingua Mater. Lingua Mater uses literature, art, and poetry to teach grammar and composition. VERY Charlotte Mason.
The rest of CHC is in the lesson plans. There are notebook projects for the rosary, the Mass, the litrugical year. There's a geography study (that really needs beefing up in my opinion). There are plans to go with traditional Catholic history texts (again, needs some living literature beyond the recommendations).
I could go on but someone will have to pick up for me. I have a needy three-year-old.
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Elizabeth
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Real quick: this conversation has helped me sort out my CHC workbook thoughts. I'm still not convinced that a workbook (like Language of God) can teach spelling or grammar. But these do reinforce the faith. They're not hurting spelling and grammar and they're helping teach the Faith. Works for me.
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Kim F
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I mean, not saying they are *bad*. Just have a bit of a curric. aversion to start with. And a huge aversion to everyone-on-a-different-book/topic so it was never a draw. I guess I worry too when a Catholic infused curric discussion strays heavily to boxed programs - CM inspired or not. It sorta gives the "one right way" impression. I dont think there is one right way to provide a thoroughly Catholic, CM education.
CHC is offering some great tools. If they are working GREAT! I am not convinced they necessarily simplify things. They would make me nuts. I would rather have everyone copy from the Sunday readings or our lit bks ala Ruth Beechick. If we can pick a country to study and get library bks and a patron saint to read about to everyone I am all over it. If we can pick a history era or science topic and do the same even better.
To me the suggestions in Real Learning bklist and Karen Andreola's bk make me feel peaceful and confident. Separate levels of bks my kids tend to lose make me feel scattered - Catholic or not. I like to keep them to a minimum and rely on our liturgical year celebrations, daily prayer routine, and reading to infuse the faith.
As to the latin centered ed, Henle when we did it last was very Catholic and the selections covered ancient history and the faith very nicely. Like the CHC it was so intertwined it would hard not to get those things as they worked through the exercises.
Kim
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JuliaT
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I have been lurking on this forum for three months. I have been enjoying my time here. The threads on LCE have coaxed me out out of lurkdom.
I have been meshing classical and CM for the past year with my 7 yr. old. I have been following the schedule that is in LCC for the past year. It has made life easy for us. I only have three children. This fall I will be hsing 2 as my ds will be starting K. So I can't address the issue of hsing large families with LCC I also can't comment on hsing highschoolers using this philosophy. Although, right now, I don't think I will be using Drew's suggestions for highschool. I think his suggestions are a little sparse.
I can, though, address some of the comments on this thread. As far as simplicity goes, I consider my schedule easy and simple. Every morning, we do Bible, latin, math and, in the fall, we will be starting Classical Writing. This is a rigourous morning, especially for a 7 yr. old, but I believe she can handle it. If she can't then we will drop CW. Grammar and spelling are included in CW and latin so I don't use separate subjects for that. Every afternoon, we do a different subject. Mon's are for history. Tues--classical studies (myths), Wed--literature, Thurs--geography or Can. history (yes, we live in Canada), Fri--Science. I do not have curriculums for the afternoon subjects. We just read books and do narrations. My dd is an activity girl, so I will have her do more drama--type narrations. We have tea--time in the afternoons where we do picture study, poetry reading, read picture books or listen to music. This may not be simplistic to some, but I consider it so. If we don't get to the aft. subjects, it's not a big deal. I have felt a pressure--release from doing school this way.
Elizabeth, we do use your book list as well for our tea time reading. This is probably not the way you would use it, but it works for us. (Also, may I just squeeze in here that we are following your Beatrix Potter unit study for the summer. We are loving it! Thank you for all of your hard work.)
This is getting horribly long but I also want to say that I think LCC can be tailored to match each chld's gifts, strenths, and weaknesses. I don't use the book suggestions that Drew gives. I use AO's book suggestions and plug them into my schedule. As far as latin goes, I do tailor the curriculum for my child. I am tweaking LC1 right now for the fall. I am adding games and activities to make LC less of a workbook curriculum. We are also going to take 2,possibly 3 weeks
for each lesson. We are going to go at our own pace. Also, we use RightStart Math which is not a workbook curriculum but heavy on games and manipulatives. Even though, it looks rigorous on paper, in actuality, there is alot of fun happening here.
Please forgive me for writing so much on my first post, but I just wanted you to know how LCC can be used from someone who is actually doing it. My thinking is, you take the good from a book and make it work for you. The part of the book that you don't agree with, throw it away.
JuliaT
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk/
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Louise
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| Posted: June 25 2006 at 9:35pm | IP Logged
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Kim F wrote:
Here is an important distinguisher for me - the latin school sites are primarily neo-classical which is exactly what Andrew Campbell warns against.
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But the headmistress of the Highland Latin School is the author of Latina Christiana and the publisher of Andrew Cambell's book!
Kim F wrote:
but the gist is that latin should theoretically be able to cover most language skills. So why these sites do English grammar on top is beyond me.
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Isn't one of your three basic subject "English Grammar"? I am just puzzled here. Not trying to argue. I am just trying to figure out how you do a latin centered ed in your home.
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Louise, mom of 11
http://timetokeep.blogspot.com/
http://ecolebuissonniere.blogspirit.com/
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Kim F
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Yes they do publish the Campbell bk though I dont think they necessarily subscribe to the specifics in their school. In fact the dynamics of a school are just plain different by necessity. Its got to be more regimented than a hmsc needs to be. That is why I wouldnt use it as a model no matter what publisher runs it.
Once I buy a bk I figure it is mine <g> If I want to use it the way the publisher does fine. If I want to use it at a totally different level or in a different manner that is ok too. We are using PL with 3rd and 6th graders for instance, not the first graders it is listed for.
How it looks here? Right now its pretty much what I described to you the other day, Louise. We do math and grammar and music daily. We took PL in a coop class this past semester. We are still drilling the words. I don't think we technically need to do both though to cover grammar. We happened to start with the English this yr and switched gears.
I think what I like about Campbells articles is that they reiterate what people like Art Robinson have been saying for years - it doesnt have to be cumbersome to be effective. If you want to add more things do so. If you do just what is outlined it can work well also. I would add it doesnt have to have Catholic author nor be separated into lots of subjects to be Catholic either. Now, if those work for you by all means. Dont get me wrong there. But if they don't there is no need to fear your child is not getting a Catholic ed.
KIm
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Curriculum Infused with Faith ?
