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MommyD
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Thank you all for your kindness! I'm deleting this message because it should not have been written. It was ugly and dark. I wrote it in a bad moment and I'm sorry.
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Pilgrim
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Praying for you, may God guide you to what is His plan for your souls and your marriage! We have never experienced NFP, as of yet, but some dear friends have had to and it sounds just like what you're going through. I'm sorry you guys are having such a hard time! No advice, just prayers for wisdom, and an internet hug  .
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Wife 2 my bf, g14,b8,g&b6,g4,g3,g1 1/2,4 ^i^
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TryingMyBest
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Deleted.
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Mackfam
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Hi MommyD,
I know what you mean about this being a difficult topic to find a place to discuss it. It is so private, and often involves so many variables that are personal, from couple to couple. Your particular needs would be best discussed privately and personally with someone who cares about you, your husband, and your spiritual health. I pray that you and your husband can find a way to talk with your priest or with a good Catholic counselor on this matter.
As a board moderator, I need to state that on matters of faith this board is faithful to Catholic Church teaching on all matters, and will continue to affirm Church teaching if clarification is needed. We can brainstorm within the teaching of the Church on ways to live out our vocation as Catholic wives, and are always willing to do so with you! However, we will not discuss potential solutions that are outside of Church teaching.
You are in my prayers, MommyD.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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Betsy
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MommyD,
I am praying for you! This issue is near and dear to my heart. Not to make light of you issues with NFP---I know that they are very, very real and hard---but I think that this points to the larger issues of marriages being under extreme attack. Because of this attack, anything dealing with the family is becoming harder and harder to do what is right and true.
Jen's words are very wise in trying to find a counclor or holy priest to talk to who knows you better and you can share more deeply with. The Church is wise. But, this is not an easy road at times.
Again, I will keep you in my prayers.
__________________
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When handcrafting my work, I always pray that it will raise your heart to all that is true, modest, just, holy, lovely and good fame!
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knowloveserve
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This very morning I wrote an article about being Catholic and not wanting more children... how it is so hard to be open about our feelings on that. It includes my dark feelings about my struggle to accept baby #5... absurdly, and against all logic, I am now thrilled to be pregnant with #6. Anyway, that article should be printed in the next issue of Soul Gardening, a free, printed journal for Catholic mamas. The link is in my signature if you want to receive it.
Ultimately, I think God works in mysterious ways and He opens up our hearts in ways we never thought possible. He always, always, always wants what is best for us. The hardest part is surrendering to that knowledge.
I highly recommend taking your prayer to Our Blessed Mother... even making a special consecration to her. I'd be happy to send you my book 33 Days To Morning Glory if you'd like to do that. Just PM me.
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Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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Booksnbabes
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My question would be what is the underlying issue that causes the cycles to be so difficult, do you know? Mine had always been unpredictable and charting had always been difficult, but I was diagnosed with hypothyroiditis after our fourth child and having that managed has made a noticeable difference. Things can still be unclear, but not like the decade and more before that. Is it possible you may have a similar situation?
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Wife to wonderful DH, mom to SIX beautiful gifts from God!
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Aagot
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I agree with booksandbabes. It is common but not normal to have irregular cycles. They do indicate underlying health issues. Do you have a health practioner who is familiar with NFP? If not, I can get you in touch with one. Just pm me if interested.
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MommyD
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JodieLyn
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MommyD, we would be glad to offer ideas of things that may help. Perhaps alternative treatments. Maybe someone else's research has lead them to something you haven't heard of.
We would be happy to help point you in a direction for finding a good Catholic counselor. Or how to approach your priest.
We would gladly talk about ways to improve relationships between husbands and wives that don't depend on what happens behind closed doors.
But if these are not the types of discussion you want to be having, please ask any moderator and this thread can be locked or deleted.
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Jodie, wife to Dave
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All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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CrunchyMom
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knowloveserve wrote:
| This very morning I wrote an article about being Catholic and not wanting more children... how it is so hard to be open about our feelings on that. It includes my dark feelings about my struggle to accept baby #5... absurdly, and against all logic, I am now thrilled to be pregnant with #6. |
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This is a common story among other Catholics I know. It isn't something most of us talk about freely and openly, especially not in the heat of the struggle and out of respect for the dignity of the life one is struggling to accept, but perrhaps it is of some help to know that most mothers of many spend a lot of time begging God for the grace they need to stretch and accept His will...again. And, I know of others in addition to Ellie where there was a point where the new babies were not as hard to accept and were even met with excitement after a previous pregnancy was such a struggle.
In short, you may not always feel the way you do today.
There is a lot more to being Catholic than the teaching about contraception, and perhaps it would be more worthwhile to focus on the other teachings of our faith that you would be sacrificing should you leave it. Perhaps those truths are the ones you need to internalize and will recognize that you can't give up but would give you the resolve to accept the truth in the teaching that you see as the source of your present pain.
I will add that, as I said, most of us have to literally beg for grace to accept the Church's teaching in this whether it is because we are scared of pregnancy itself, have financial struggles, or even because we are infertile and cannot use the treatments that so many around us use successfully but are immoral in their means. And yet, the reason that Our Holy Mother Church teaches what she does is because she knows that choosing sin means closing ourselves off from that very grace we so desperately need.
__________________
Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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JennGM
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I have thinking and praying for you since you posted.
Echoing Lindsay, I just want to say that it's very important to form your conscience according to the Church's teachings. Read and pray. The Church is not trying to just impose a "NO" on birth control like an imposing dictator just to wield authority. As husband and wife we are pro-creators, creating WITH God. Using ABC puts Him out of the equation, and reduces the act to mere personal selfishness. It goes against Natural Law and changes the language of the marital act. The act will no longer become uniting, making two into one.
Practicing NFP is difficult if it's only focusing on the "can't do it". NFP works when it's in cooperation with God. We have to pray for guidance. It's not a decision between you and your spouse, but a decision for three, to discuss with God. It takes Three to be married and God must always be part of this decision. AND, like mentioned above, it's not always a cut and dry decision, (unless it was for health reasons). There has to be a continual dialogue with Christ and there might be a time when He says NOW is the time for another. And cooperation with grace will help you see when and how.
This morning I read two quotes that just brought me back to your post, and I thought I would share.
First of all, Pope Francis has released his First Encyclical which is on Faith. And it is FAITH that helps us follow the Church's teachings and see Her Wisdom, even if at times we can't understand or don't feel like it.
Some excerpts that popped out at me (I only skimmed a bit this morning; need to read more deeply later):
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Faith and the family
52. In Abraham's journey towards the future city, the Letter to the Hebrews mentions the blessing which was passed on from fathers to sons (cf. Heb 11:20-21). The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage. This union is born of their love, as a sign and presence of God's own love, and of the acknowledgment and acceptance of the goodness of sexual differentiation, whereby spouses can become one flesh (cf. Gen 2:24) and are enabled to give birth to a new life, a manifestation of the Creator's goodness, wisdom and loving plan. Grounded in this love, a man and a woman can promise each other mutual love in a gesture which engages their entire lives and mirrors many features of faith. Promising love for ever is possible when we perceive a plan bigger than our own ideas and undertakings, a plan which sustains us and enables us to surrender our future entirely to the one we love. Faith also helps us to grasp in all its depth and richness the begetting of children, as a sign of the love of the Creator who entrusts us with the mystery of a new person. So it was that Sarah, by faith, became a mother, for she trusted in God's fidelity to his promise (cf. Heb 11:11). |
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Faith goes hand in hand with Trust. In using NFP we are trusting God and cooperating with Him to do HIS Will. It's not our will.
I also was reading this article by Jeffrey Mirus this morning, The Authority Principle Revisited: The Key to the Formation of Culture
It doesn't seem like it's covering the same area, but Dr. Mirus is addressing the fact that when we face teaching of the Church and wonder if what we are following is really true or not. Emphasis mine.
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If you look around the world today (or in any era), you'll find that human culture expresses the dominant values of a society. For example, in the United States we have a predominately commercial culture because we have predominately commercial values. The lives of huge numbers of people in our society are more or less defined by endless getting and endless spending. A tremendous amount of our time and energy goes into the two sides of business--producing and consuming goods and services. The hallmark of our larger culture is ubiquitous advertising.
All of this is very worldly, and undoubtedly very shallow, and it ultimately falls to religion to attempt to overcome this worldly shallowness by orienting us to more permanent values. Thus religion typically acts as a brake upon the passing preoccupations of a worldly culture, pointing us to deeper truths which transcend time and which relate to our ultimate purposes and ends. The fact that religion has proven capable of such cultural transformations again and again throughout history suggests that it is a very powerful generator of human values. |
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Reading prayerfully Humanae Vitae is such a wonderful way to see with the eyes of Faith the reason to not use ABC. I love how Pope Paul VI understand and puts into words so well the struggles of a married couple:
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| The transmission of human life is a most serious role in which married people collaborate freely and responsibly with God the Creator. It has always been a source of great joy to them, even though it sometimes entails many difficulties and hardships. |
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| especially when it is felt that these can be observed only with the gravest difficulty, sometimes only by heroic effort? |
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So beautiful! But he answers what I mention above:
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Responsible parenthood, as we use the term here, has one further essential aspect of paramount importance. It concerns the objective moral order which was established by God, and of which a right conscience is the true interpreter. In a word, the exercise of responsible parenthood requires that husband and wife, keeping a right order of priorities, recognize their own duties toward God, themselves, their families and human society.
From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out. |
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Sorry for rambling, but I just wanted to echo the above posts. Do pray together as a couple and inform your conscience. Is NFP hard? Oh my, yes. The abstinence periods are much longer for us. No one would ever admit it comes easily. But it builds the marriage. We are mutually praying about this. It's not just one side saying no...we had to come together about this. We are learning to find ways to focus on one another and enjoy the company, and not just see this as the only way to experience joy in marriage.
Our (my husband and my) spiritual directors encourage us to have a weekly date night, and go away overnight once a quarter. It seems like a daunting task at times, but it does bear fruit. They also suggest a weekly "meeting" to discuss the important issues, financial, etc.
With marriage being attacked from all sides and so many families getting divorced, it's important to not take the marriage for granted or just let it be on "auto-pilot". It has to be nurtured and we have to grow together. And spending the extra time in enjoying your spouse helps build the marriage and communication.
Praying for you!
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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MommyD
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knowloveserve
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It's bigger than the fate of a few sperm. It's the fundamental question of who creates a new soul. We are co-creators. Do we really believe and live as if babies are "blessings" like we all say... or do we believe in "accidental" souls being created.
Even if biologically a man and woman do everything "right" (or 'wrong' depending on your perspective)... it is still God who opens and closes the womb.
It's a matter of your will becoming in line with His. He knows your hurt and pain and struggle. He sees the big picture that you can't though. Maybe He doesn't want you to have more babies.... maybe He does. You have to ask yourself whether you are willing to surrender to His knowing best.
Book offer still stands...
Prayers...
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Ellie
The Bleeding Pelican
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MichelleW
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MommyD,
I went through this about 13 years ago. The doctors told me that were I to get pregnant again I would surely die. I was terrified of everything, dying, abstaining to the point of losing my husband, causing myself to wither emotionally at lack of touch, following the teachings of the church...it was a terrible struggle. It felt like being torn apart physically, emotionally, spiritually.
Hearing you now, my heart breaks for what you are going through. I remember. I am praying.
__________________
Michelle
Mom to 3 (dd 14, ds 15, and ds 16)
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cathhomeschool
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MommyD, I am praying for you and your family. I only have a moment to respond to you right now, but I would encourage you to step back, pray LOTS, and ask the Holy Spirit to help you. A great prayer that I say all the time is:
Holy Spirit, come to the aid of my weakness and intercede for me according to the Will of God.
To me, it sounds as if you are struggle is greater than NFP and is more about questioning the authority of the Church. The Pope is our shepherd. He does not need to experience every event in life in order to be able to guide us through it just as we as parents do not need to experience everything our children are experiencing in order to understand their struggles and guide them through them. Sometimes it is about age and holiness and life experience more than about the particular experience. The teaching on NFP is one facet of a much bigger picture of theology of the body, the dignity of the human soul, God's dominion over life, and our cooperation with His divine plan. Sacrifice -- carrying our cross -- is part of the human path to holiness and to heaven, and NFP is a part of that. It is not easy, but following Christ never is. We can embrace our crosses, do our part to lighten our crosses (like getting medical help when needed instead of just staying sick), and ask for the grace to make it through our struggles, or we can choose not to. And if you honestly think that a Pope or a priest doesn't understand your struggles with abstinence, then think again. Priests are, after all, *completely* abstinent, and I am sure that it is not easy. They are human after all. So I believe that the *do* understand, not less, but more than we do what the Church is asking through NFP.
As I said, I am praying for you.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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TryingMyBest
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cathhomeschool wrote:
Priests are, after all, *completely* abstinent, and I am sure that it is not easy. They are human after all. So I believe that the *do* understand, not less, but more than we do what the Church is asking through NFP.
As I said, I am praying for you. |
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I'll just point out this isn't entirely accurate. Traditionally Eastern Catholic priests have been married, except in the US but that is changing. Orthodox priests are usually married (I know you weren't talking about the Orthodox but you wrote "priests" and their priesthood is recognized by the RCC). Now there are even married Latin Rite priests who were former Anglicans.
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Martha
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MommyD wrote:
| First, I find the idea that any Pope can "understand..the struggles of married couples" as laughable as the idea that I can understand the struggle of being a Pope! I'd love to see a Pope write an encyclical after not sleeping through the night for over 10 years!! |
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So you are incapable of having empathy for someone unless you have suffered the same? Really? I didnt live theough the holocaust or the great depression or many other struggles other people have overcome, but I can see the right and the wrong of it and have deep compassion for their struggles.
What about me? I have not slept through the night in 18 years. For 19 years I have been either pregnant or breast feeding. Does anything I write also have no value to you? Lindsey and others have expressed compassion, empathy and shared that you are not alone in this struggle. I echo their words. Especially Lindesys. There's been a few pregnancies a cried my way through out of fear or whatever. And then there was the time of more than a year with no sex bc we were seriously that worried about having a pregnancy at that time. We were so frustrated with NFP, that we agreed to just not have sex rather than deal with NFP. Or the struggle of living the faith with a husband who is not religious or catholic.
Quote:
Second, it boggles my mind that people can get divorced, rip apart a family! and still be in good standing with the Church but, were I to use a barrier method to prevent a sixth child, I'd be condemned to Hell. I get that that is what the Church teaches, I don't think that that is what God in Heaven thinks. I just can't go there. The world is full of divorce, abortion, genocide, war and God is concerned about the fate of a few sperm? I can't go there.
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That's quite the leap of justification you have going there.
Does the fact that someone else commits a greater sin absolve me of duty to avoid any rationized opinion of lesser sins?
What other people do has absolutely nothing to do with what is right to do. Not for them. Not for me. Not for you. Them being more wrong, doesn't make you at all right.
Never mind that there are MANY people who are not in good standing, married, divorced, single for many various reasons.
And no one is saying you are condemned to hell. Even a mortal sin can be repented and forgiven.
Setting all of that logic issue aside...
Let's say you use a barrier method according to perfect clinical use every single time you used it. Which is unlikely. There is a reason the majority of unplanned pregnancies are to women who are on birth control. But let's say you beat those odds and give it perfect clinical use every time. For every 100 women, within 1 year of using these methods perfectly, this many women is typically how many will get pregnant that year:
Male condom - 15
Female condom - 21
Diaphragm w/spermicide - 16
Spermicide alone - 29
Sponge - 16 will not deliver a live baby, 32 will
Cervical cap - same as sponge
This failure rate is the number of pregnancies that occur out of 100 women in the first year of use.
This is from WedMD. NOT some proNFP site.
Personally, when I have been really scared of getting pregnant, those numbers are what discouraged me from birth control. Say what you want about abstinence, I have never gotten pregnant when not having sex. And I sure didn't risk being one of the 15-30% that ended up pregnant.
So let's say you use a barrier method and still end up pregnant, because there is a very decent chance you would, then what?
I pose the problem isn't sex or pregnancy. It's acceptance of love and life and each other.
And having been there and doing that, I get it. It's hard. It's scary.
(((hugs)))
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
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StephanieA
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I am also praying for you, MommyD.
The problem is not our children. They are truly gifts from God...it is everything else.
The washer that doesn't work, the car that needs repairs, the lawn that needs mowing, and our personal struggles within us and ones specific to our family that we deal with hourly.
We feel the pressure. So we need to step back and see, realistically, how to make it happen. Does it mean that we hire a someone to listen to the younger ones read? A high school girl who can throw a load of laundry in for us? Time to spend with our husband without interruptions? Alone time, just 1/2 hour, to walk down the street and breathe deeply?
We have 9 children, 8 still at home, with a husband who works very long hours (ie. is seldom home for supper). I have an 18 year old daughter who, one would think, would be my other right hand. But it is not so. Therefore, I hire girls her age to listen to my 2 dyslexic girls read (even though it is really not in the budget which is very difficult). She does help in other areas but this keeps family peace.
Our Lady is the Queen of Peace. Invoke her in her title.
Looking back (I'm 49), I can truly say that children are the real blessings in marriage. They do have the potential of bringing spouses together for a higher good. Raising our families is very tough, but unknowingly, I have made it tougher
on myself, at times, than it really needed to be. I can only say this in hindsight...looking back. I needed more humility and a total dependence on God.
The Church really is "spot on" in her teachings. We tend to have a very narrow focus, because it is so tough to see the big picture amidst our daily problems. So it really is a relief to know that She does have the answers. It is one less thing to think about which in itself is a relief.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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SeaStar
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MommyD wrote:
The world is full of divorce, abortion, genocide, war and God is concerned about the fate of a few sperm? I can't go there.
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Yes, God is concerned about every detail of our lives. We are his children.
Is there any part of our own children's lives that we think is not important?
God's love is so great that we can't comprehend it. He knows everything about you, MommyD. He knows the anguish and frustration you are feeling right now.
My only advice is to turn to him in prayer now more than ever. Ask him to answer your questions, to show you what you need to know and understand.
He is faithful.
__________________
Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Struggling to remain Catholic due to NFP
