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Angel
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| Posted: April 29 2011 at 8:06pm | IP Logged
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I am contemplating whether or not to purchase the Living Math lesson plans. I wondered if anyone here had used them at the Advanced/High School level?
My ds is just hitting a wall right now with algebra, and so am I. I cannot drag him through 3 levels of math that he's disgusted with. It's not just that he's not understanding it... it's that he needs to connect what he's learning to the real world. When we started homeschooling, I had this lovely vision of real learning which has borne fruit in so many different ways... except in math. In math, I have had big ideas but very little follow through. I *want* very much to make math a "living subject for my kids, because I see now the results of forcing people through textbooks who are not math textbook people.  My dd will be starting prealgebra next year (sort of) and I know she will need more hands-on work, too. I was thinking of putting together some "math manuals" for them from various sources, but... the problem is I think it may take more time and effort than I have available.
Right now we've ditched Jacobs algebra for the time being and are working in Ed Zaccaro's Challenge Math, which I really like, but my ds is running into problems here, too (some of which are study skill problems and some of which have more to do with attitude.) I really think we need to "deschool" math for a while, but on the brink of 9th grade taking a break and doing anything nontraditional in math is terrifying!
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Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: April 29 2011 at 8:22pm | IP Logged
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sounds like it might be a good time to do things like check books and budgets and shopping etc. Maybe something Dave Ramsey (or others similiar) has??
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Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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KackyK
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| Posted: April 30 2011 at 6:33am | IP Logged
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I just wanted to add that my dd did Jacobs. It was a real bear! She hated it, we all hated it!! She switched to Teaching Textbooks for the following year and was so so so much happier.
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KackyK
Mom to 8 - 3 dd, 5ds & 4 babes in heaven
Beginning With the Assumption
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mooreboyz
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| Posted: May 02 2011 at 7:28am | IP Logged
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Angela,
We are with you. My oldest LOVED and excelled at math which is why I threw him into Algebra in 6th grade...he was ready. However, LOF was a nightmare for him and totally turned him off. The next year we redid Algebra with TT. It went much better; but, I felt he needed some time off from upper level math and so this past year he did AOP accounting (which he was interested in). I know this isn't considered Math for college, but for me it was mathy enough and it gave him the break he needed and he loved it and is considering it for a career. He also worked through an Algebra review book on Fridays.
I gave him the pretest for TT Algebra 2 recently, saw some areas where he needs review (graphing) before next year. So, he will redo these chapters over the next month.
I recently came across this site, ordered some catalogs including the "Algebra/Geometry" one and am amazed at the fun stuff available for upper level math. I am only at the beginning of it and am excited to get some fun stuff for my older boys. Check it out online or just order it...and get some others as well (the Ag Science is neat too).
nasco
I wouldn't feel bad about taking a year off (maybe with a review book to keep things fresh) since you're already running ahead.
Take care!
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Jackie
7 boys - 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 15, 17 years
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Mackfam
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| Posted: May 19 2011 at 2:16pm | IP Logged
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Angel wrote:
| I am contemplating whether or not to purchase the Living Math lesson plans. I wondered if anyone here had used them at the Advanced/High School level? |
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I've been looking at those plans as well, Angela. It does sound like they can run concurrently with a stand-alone program. I wonder if you could begin the year and ease back into something different with Algebra??? It would at least buy you a little more time to look at options anyway.
Throwing this idea your way as well - Sarah will complete Dave Ramsey's Foundations in Personal Finance Course for high school credit next year (her 10th grade year) while also working through Algebra II slowly.
Angel wrote:
| I really think we need to "deschool" math for a while, but on the brink of 9th grade taking a break and doing anything nontraditional in math is terrifying! |
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I wanted to share something with you. I was talking with my Uncle (taught college math/algebra at LSU for years...retired a few years ago) about high school math, preparation for college math, etc. He let me know that overwhelmingly kids came out of high school unable to understand or advance to college level math as college freshmen. Most freshmen had to go through at least one full year of remedial math just to get to a college level math course. WHY? Because they simply did not understand why they were doing what they were doing in high school --> they didn't understand fractions....thus they couldn't understand algebra...and so on. His belief -- that they were whisked along too quickly toward the abstract before solid concrete ideas were understood, along every level. It was helpful for me to see how important it is to ensure that there is a solid understanding of concrete concepts before we move forward into each area of the abstract (even as that applies to algebraic concepts and moving forward and building on them), even if that is at the detriment of the "standard high school math schedule". Because ultimately, as long as my child understands the why of whatever level of high school math they get to, they'll be able to build from there. Anyway, it was an epiphany moment for me in having that conversation with my Uncle and I wanted to share it with you in the hopes that it will encourage you to see this through so that you find something that helps your son *see* algebra...even if that means de-schooling a bit in 9th grade to hit the reset button. My 2 cents anyway!
Wondering if you've considered the Living Math option more for your high schooler....and what you decided?
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Grace&Chaos
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| Posted: May 19 2011 at 3:02pm | IP Logged
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I know you ladies are talking about high school math, but being a mathy person myself (and learning quickly that my oldest isn't) this has become an issue for me.
Jen, I appreciate you sharing your conversation with your uncle. I've had a similar talk with my dh, who for a moment, thought we just need to keep moving up the ladder of math curriculum and not look back. I disagreed.
My oldest dd is just finishing 5th grade and we had to stop Saxon 6/5 a couple of months ago because it was becoming clear to me that she was missing those very early fundamentals that she will need for upper math like algebra or geometry. We started LOF fractions in the hopes to capture one basic element at a time using her strength (reading/literature/words). I'm still trying to figure out what route to take with her because this is not her strong subject and I do want her to feel like she at least has a grasp on math rather than feeling like a sinking hole.
Just some thoughts but it is nice to see how others are handling this  .
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Blessings,
Jenny
Mom to dds(00,03) and dss(05,06,08,09)
Grace in Loving Chaos
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: May 19 2011 at 6:15pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
| Because they simply did not understand why they were doing what they were doing in high school --> they didn't understand fractions....thus they couldn't understand algebra...and so on. His belief -- that they were whisked along too quickly toward the abstract before solid concrete ideas were understood, along every level. It was helpful for me to see how important it is to ensure that there is a solid understanding of concrete concepts before we move forward into each area of the abstract (even as that applies to algebraic concepts and moving forward and building on them), even if that is at the detriment of the "standard high school math schedule". |
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I think we cannot stress this enough! All a person can do is spit out a canned answer to a canned problem if they don't understand *why.* Real life math is not "canned." We went back over and over to the basics each time it became apparent that the child didn't "get it" quite as much as it looked like he did. We used lots of manipulatives. Fractions took a looong time with some. But everything builds and even if a child doesn't plan on pursuing a degree that is math-centered, I think it's very helpful for everyone to know basic math, algebra, geometry.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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mariB
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| Posted: May 20 2011 at 5:49am | IP Logged
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Having the same thing with my 9th grader. He has always been very strong in math but for some reason Algebra isn't clicking. We've gotten half way through TT Algebra twice and now we have paused and we are working through the Key to Algebra series which I am really loving. Our plan is to complete KEY To Algebra and then move back into TT Algebra. My other tow sons had no problem with TT. I actually work along with our son in the Key to Series and explain things if he doesn't get it.
Real life math? Our oldest is building guitar amps from his own designs and using Algebraic formulas to put these amps together! He just showed me the formula the other day! I was impressed needless to say!
I am really impressed with my 7 year old's understanding of math. We are using Math-U-See.
My fifth grader is doing great at "paper" math but math concepts are not her strength. We are doing a lot of real life applications. She has always struggled with math. This is actually the best year yet and we are using Saxon 54 with her.
Our 9th grader was panicking about being "behind". I said there is no need to whisk you through math if you don't understand. We will take our time and when you get it we will move on.
I feel like our weakness here is a lack of understanding of math concepts and I don't want any of our kids to panic and think they are behind.
I am pondering what to do with our kids this upcoming year for math. I am glad to read this thread because as usual you ladies make such good points.
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marib-Mother to 22ds,21ds,18ds,15dd,11dd and wife to an amazing man for 23 years
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Angel
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| Posted: May 28 2011 at 7:52am | IP Logged
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Finally I have a minute to get back to this thread!!! Thank you for the conversation.  It's nice to have support when you are contemplating doing anything unconventional. Here's where I am now:
I haven't purchased the Living Math plans yet, but I have decided that I am going to. (I'm just waiting on my new computer and printer to arrive. ) After spending a lot of time on the Living Math site and reading this review of the lesson plans, I realize that they're not open and go and still require a lot of legwork. But -- we test drove some of the sample activities and I pulled some of my living math resources off the shelf where they were gathering dust, and I think the consensus is that it's not that my kids don't like *mathematics*, it's that they don't like the way that mathematics is taught by your average textbook.
For instance, before we quit for our summer break, my ds and I had made it to the chapter in Jacobs on simultaneous equations. He's still stumbling over the rules for operations with signed integers, so we'll have to address that, but the bigger problem we both ran into was that we had no idea *why* anyone would ever want to add or subtract one equation from another or plot them on a graph. I could explain to him how to get the right answer but I didn't know what it meant either.
So then I bought Challenge Math for my 12 yo dd. Lo and behold, there is a chapter on simultaneous equations included in this book. It explains simultaneous equations using the following problem:
"Sam bought two hats and one coat at a cost of $92. Laura bought two hats and two coats at a cost of $140. What was the cost of each hat?"
And in working that problem, it was suddenly clear to both of us! Algebra works in the real world!
(Actually, I was more excited than he was but then I have gone longer without understanding than he has. And I made As in honors math courses, too.)
Anyway, this is the sort of thing I'm looking for that is woefully lacking in most math programs in general. I think I should have been clearer; although we are planning some consumer math/personal finance for our kids (probably including the Dave Ramsay materials, but my dh is the econ/finance teacher  ), what I think my ds is most frustrated by is that there seems to be no *meaning* in what he is doing beyond "you have to do this in order to go to college." And yet this same teen will talk to me with interest about figuring out historical counting systems in other bases, cryptography, is there a formula for figuring out how light refracts through the atmosphere of a planet so you know how much light is getting to the surface... etc. (Which is why I really liked your story about the guitar amps, Mari!)
I started thinking about this last summer when I read the (long, but worth it) http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf. It was the sort of thing I immediately agreed with but could not really figure out how to implement in ordinary life.
Anyway, in trying to figure out what to do for next year, I also rather sheepishly realized that the Teachers Guide to Jacobs contains "interesting, real world examples" that you are supposed to lead off with when teaching the book. I was following Kolbe's lesson plans, which are, I think, a bit much. In the teacher's guide, Jacobs says you''ll probably do either Set II or Set III and Kolbe has you doing a lot of both. Julie at Living Math has some plans she made to go along with Jacobs (which I would link to, but I've lost the link!!) and I noticed that, in addition to the math history reading, she had the kids doing selected problems from Set I (review), Set II, and then the Set IV problem -- which I had noticed is usually the *interesting* problem, but since it is supposedly "extra", I had never assigned it.
I'm sure this post is becoming increasingly incoherent because the hordes have descended on me for breakfast, but to sum up:
I think were going to try to stick with Jacobs but use it differently. (I also think I will order the DVDs.) I'm going to *try* to make a sort of math manual to go along with the regular algebra work consisting of "stuff" I pull from the Living Math plans, which will hopefully introduce a hands-on component. And I'm not going to rush him through concepts he doesn't get. This may be a problem later on as MS requires 4 credits of math for graduation, but I imagine that we'll be able to find some way to work around it -- with consumer math, math history, etc.
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Angela
Mom to 9, 7 boys and 2 girls
Three Plus Two
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: living math for high school
