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Stacy Y
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| Posted: Oct 12 2009 at 7:12pm | IP Logged
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Hi, I have used Seton for K and 1st grade with my daughter, but haven't been very impressed with either. We have also used our public charter, K12, but found that overwhelming since I was just placed on bedrest and droppped out. A friend of mine thinks that I might enjoy OLVS more than Seton. Anyone used both? Does Seton get better in the higher grades? Thanks!
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folklaur
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| Posted: Oct 12 2009 at 7:34pm | IP Logged
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just as an FYI - (i am not saying it is better or worse or anything...)
OLVS is a Traditional Catholic Program - for instance, their website says things like (their emphasis):
Quote:
You will find us supporting only the Latin Tridentine Mass...
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as i said, just an fyi.
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florasita
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| Posted: Oct 13 2009 at 10:32am | IP Logged
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I have not used either as a full program but I personally like OLVS items very much . I also like they are simple , down to basics etc.
Lynn from LA was my inspiration to try . I love the religion choices for catechism and reading . We love thier science/history books but my ds13 has always loved the old simple books . Keep in mind we also throw in sonlight etc. if we enjoy the books . I did use the early math books as well but not saxon math We used singapore now I am using rays .
I've always been drawn to the more traditional myself  and we do not attend latin mass
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LLMom
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| Posted: Oct 13 2009 at 1:19pm | IP Logged
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I used Seton a few years back and Kindergarden was my least favorite year. IMO, it gets better. I have used some books from OLV and compared to Seton, I like Seton best because we love the art work in Seton and the color. OLV books are in black and white, if that matters to you. I think it best to ask the dad as Kim states in her wonderful blog post.
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Lisa
For veteran & former homeschool moms
homeschooling ideas
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Stacy Y
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| Posted: Oct 13 2009 at 1:52pm | IP Logged
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Thanks Lisa, My husband does require that I have full enrollment in a thorough, rigorous program in order to home school with his blessing. He also wants me to stick with the same thing instead of waffling back and forth between different programs, but ultimately trusts my judgement. We both found MODG and CHC a bit too light for what we are looking for. I was thinking that with either Seton or OLVS that I would use some Sonlight, because both programs are so literature deficient. (Although Seton does include an awesome supplementary book list). I just have 5 other little ones coming up behind my daughter... I want to really enjoy these years. I also liked the fact that OLVS introduces Latin in 1st grade. I know I could always add that in to Seton... I tend to be pretty traditional, so I don't think that part would bother me too much.
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Wendy
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| Posted: Oct 13 2009 at 3:11pm | IP Logged
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I really like OLVS -- but I tend to favor old-fashioned schoolbooks over newer materials. Their religion courses are outstanding, and the rest of the subjects are good, solid courses that are easy to supplement with "living books." In fact, OLVS does sell lots of supplementary literature -- check out the "Children's Literature", "G.K. Chesterton", "Hilaire Belloc", "Classical Literature", "Historical Literature", and "Religious Literature" categories in their bookstore.
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Nina
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| Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 3:35pm | IP Logged
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Stacy, we used OLVS the first year that I homeschooled, which was when my ds was in 4th gr. Some of the material seemed too easy and some was a bit more of a challenge. The spelling for instance seemed too hard for that grade level, but the religion and science were easy. Now we use Seton but I do alter some of the plans to suit the family at the time. I also have a child in K this year, but I only use the Seton math and phonics.
If you are not sure if OLVS is a good fit, you could get some of the books used on Amazon, this way you will not need to invest a lot of money. Seton does get overwhelming. 
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 15 2009 at 5:37pm | IP Logged
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Right now Seton has a deal going where you get 4 weeks of plans free if you order $100 worth of books - but it sounds like you are doing Seton already and not finding a good fit/ time. I find it difficult for me to teach a young child to read and write using any of the programs out there, so I'm not sure I'd be much help. My children just are not workbook ready before 3rd or 4th grade. The programs have to rely too much on workbooks, and written documentation. However, if you need to be enrolled with Seton, that doesn't mean you have to do the workbooks. You only do have to do the things that are handed in. How you get them ready to be succesful on those assignments is totally up to you. Seton counselors will be more than happy to brainstorm other ways to do it - especially at the younger ages when fine motor and other maturation elements are so different in lots of normal children. For the youngest ages, these workbooks are often too much and for mine, never worked. I needed more hands on - but Seton is well aware of the varying needs of young children. They might be willing to help you brainstorm other ways to accomplish the same things and keep it simpler during your crisis mode of schooling.
Personally of all the recommendations for the very young, MODG seems to be the one most gentle and not so small print, writing intensive. But they do seem to be very mom intensive - though when you are working in the early grades learning to read and compute, there doesn't seem to be a way around mom intensive. The disadvantage is that you are already familiar with something else and any change takes time and energy to get used to the materials, etc.
At least you could probably do a lot of MODG just sitting back on the bed, holding the book together and talking,etc. You can order plans from them without enrolling and lots of folks might have these for you to borrow and look at, so a lot depends on whether or not you need full enrollment or just good plans.
If you need full enrollment, I think that OLVS would drive you really nuts - worse than Seton. If you aren't enrolling but just want plans and books, there may be some things that would be helpful, but I would be very cautious with OLVS as they do not seem to update anything in terms of church law changes, etc. and you'd end up having to modify a lot to update in religion, though the other materials might be helpful. If you just need plans, I might look at MODG plans.
Seton's material is pretty solid, up to date and generally not something you have to sort through to determine appropriateness in content etc. The biggest negative to Seton is that it is workbook and writing happy and can seem to be a lot of busy work if you become a slave to it. However, you don't have to do things the way they show - you only have to hand in a few things for the credit and grade. They are happy for you to modify the how you teach something - especially in the younger grades. The plus is that you are already enrolled, familiar with what is there and have come to some sort of an idea of what isn't working and what needs to change - something you'll have to go through all over again with any new program. At the moment it sounds like you don't have a lot of time to waste.
I'd recommend reflecting on what aspect of Seton is not working. If it is the bookishness, then OLVS isn't going to work either. If it is keeping up with uploading or mailing work, OLVS will be worse. If it is the overwhelming quantity of different books, then Seton would probably help you pare back to the essentials for a while or allow you to substitute something different for the workbooks. Ie - sound beginnings or something like that. Seton's plans are way more helpful - more on there than how to make sure your child is not cheating and do the next page which is more of what was on OLVS plans. They are also very generous with their time on the phone and will gladly give you a synopsis of what is essential to come away with from the assignments they give. Would your dh (or a Seton counselor) look over the plans with you and pull out the essentials as you see them and together with your dh come up with an easy, practical, more inspiring way to accomplish this. I have lots of phonics games - and looking at the K material at Seton, I'd simply look at the letter sequence and then have my child cut pictures out that start with a letter sound, or play pick a sound (cards with all the letters of the alphabet sounds), or go on a scavenger hunt and bring me objects that start with ..... name the letter sound. Then when they really know the sounds to be "tested", they can do the one sheet required by Seton for a grade or some such thing. The other aspect of the phonics is writing the letter as you learn the sound - so have a whiteboard or chalboard available and they can bring it to you in bed - or use an artists easel to hold it up. I'm sure Seton counselors would give you tons more ideas.
It sounds like your husband has some definite concerns. My experience has been that my husband is my best guide as long as I communicate effectively with him. Perhaps you could take a week teacher workbreak and spend some of that time sorting out with him exactly what is essential, what it is that isn't working, what it is that you need in order to conserve energy and still meet the various demands on your strength and attention. Perhaps he'd be willing to cut up the Seton workbook into workboxes to make it easier for you to use or help you find easier ways to do the same things. Unless the whole approach is wrong or readiness isn't there, there are plenty of ways to accomplish the same goals. Seton has never had a problem with families finding their own way to teach the same concepts. The workbook pages are just that - practice pages for busy moms to use if it is helpful. If it isn't or it is easier for mom and child to practice some other way - go for it. When your dh realizes that this is a temporary difficulty and that you aren't necessarily wanting to jump programs - just make something work, he may have some really top notch ideas. Seton really is quite flexible in how you do the daily teaching - they only ask for a few samples of work to grade as evidence that teaching and learning is taking place. They may be quite willing to give you some ideas meeting your own limits right now and the needs of your child. Your dh may be totally compfortable with you doing some of the daily teaching a bit outside the box as long as you still have Seton verifying the progress with those few things you do hand in.
My experience with Seton K material (I ordered it thinking it would help me with my own 7 year old and it is not helpful at all) is that it is pages and pages and pages of overwhelming workbook pages that are simply trying to get the child to pick out the beginning sound of real words from pictures, and practice writing those letters at the same time. This is done, perhaps in a certain, thought out order - so since I have the books, I will look at them for the order of presentation. However, #1 - my child looks at that thick book and all that writing and black and white pictures and runs - other than the beautiful art prints which will be cut up and added to our art appreciation. #2 Some of the struggle is sorting out what the pictures are of rather than the sound of the thing. Do you call a jet an airplane, jet or fighter plane or plane? I know better what pictures will elicit what words from my child. Montessori services sells boxes of miniature objects - you could use these to do the same thing. I have drawers labeled with each letter of the alphabet, laminated pictures and objects to match with the beginning sound. We can pick a letter a day to concentrate on and then mix a few of them together. If the child calls a jet a plane when it is in the J box, then I ask if plane starts with the j sound and is their another name for the object that starts with the j sound. That is the same strategy you use when filling out workbook pages - this picture must be of something else cause it doesn't start with the correct letter sound for this page. Cut up cheap workbooks, magazines, whatever - It is the same thing but way more fun and you don't have to get up to find the book or find the page. As long as you have lots of magazines to cut up - the child can find the pictures and you can certainly cut up your Seton K book.  All you'd need is a sheet with the order of presentation and little boxes with already gathered items to try and pick out the beginning sound of P or whatever letter. The idea is to begin with one sound, then compare it with sounds that are very different until finally they can discriminate beginning sounds that are close together. Then you tend to go to the ending sounds the same way and finally middle sounds. The entire K workbook is nothing more than doing this. It can be done just as easily with objects, scisssors and magazines and a whiteboard/chalkboard to write the letters. Get some foam letters or magnetic letters and you can use these when you go to blending .... I'm sure your husband could help you write up sequence from the workbooks you have and then just do it whatever way is easy from the bed. Seton does not consider their workbooks as completely essential to the program - what the child needs is practice in writing and identifying the sounds. The material is there as a reminder that you must begin with what is easy to discriminate (both visually and auditorially) to the more complicated or similiar. For many, many young children, the print size is too small, there is too much on a page and they aren't ready for a lot of workbooks. Write big on a chalkboard and have dh take photos of it. Another idea is to get construction paper and write a great big letter on the top corner of the page, then have your child cut and glue everything they can find with that letter. When it is done, put it together in book form and they have their own alphabet book. These are things they are more likely to do somewhat on their own with only some casual supervision from your throne in bed. They'll have fun playing with the miniatures whereas the workbook is likely to send them hiding.
For anyone else looking at a comparison - I just ended up with 2 sets of plans just from ordering some workbooks to have on the crazy days - or a few things my child requested. The catelogue indicated the material had to be all from the particular grade - but the lady who took my order asked me if I wanted the free plans and even though I indicated that I thought my materials all had to be from the same grade level, she gave me plans for 2 different grade levels. I've noticed that the books and workbooks are very much improved from the year I did way back. I am actually drawn to a number of things in the elementary level - say 3rd - 8th grade and even if I don't enroll, I like to have some of these workbooks for the crazy days. I did not care for the K material - it wasn't simple, it was a lot of busy pages and lots of small writing for children who probably aren't ready for that much small print. It is much easier to just get a good reading program, a good math book and lots of read alouds and something for religion. Mix and match if you are able and don't need the full enrollment.
I have never used OLVS myself full enrollment.(I did use one of their grammar books one year - got the workbook, teacher book and plans) and I may have done that with an American history sometime back in elementary - a year when I was trying to do therapy with 3 children and just didn't have time to design a history like I liked and figured this as a spine in between whatever we managed to do would be great. The plans were fine - not particularly helpful but this was a very long time ago. The book and workbook were as good as any and for the level we were doing (3rd or 4th, it was fine).
I do know someone who was signed up with OLVS for high school (been probably over 5 years now) and the paperwork drove them batty. You had to keep track of every single week, grade it, send in stuff weekly (though I think lots of folks sent in the weekly stuff all at once). Most people I know that liked them simply bought plans and did things their own way and were able to modify tests, etc. or not use them as they saw fit. I do know that there were some outdated things on their tests for religion (the time the church requests that you fast before communion and stuff. Now I have no problem if folks want to follow the old rules but to act as if the church has never changed the rules is a different matter). You were not allowed to modify the tests with the correct information if you were enrolled and they indicated that they were aware of the test questions and answers.
This was a long time ago so I don't know if the same people are even involved. I would be cautious. I hesitate to recommend OLVS without cautioning that there does seem to be some implicit rejection of Vatican II though they themselves do say they are not seperated from the Magisterium. They do have some really wonderful classic literature available - and some of the texts are really basic, standard old textbooks. Their grammar was fine - and at the time, tons better than trying to deal with the tiny print of Voyages in English.
Sometimes the best plan is to use what you have, utilize the assistance you've paid for and modify the manner of presentation or documentation. Seton will work with you.
Janet
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Stacy Y
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Janet, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write such a long reply! I had been trying to follow Seton's plan word for word, but hadn't considered using other resources to get me to the same destination. I really didn't care for their phonics workbooks in K or 1, I love the Little Angel Readers, but you're right, I can just use those instead. Or... whatever else works.
I'm coming from being a baptist protestant, and was homeschooled myself using Abeka, which is very intense. I've ordered the lesson plans from every Catholic curriculum for K-2 (CHC, MODG, OLVS, Seton) and was really looking for a Catholic version of Abeka in a way. Using the K12 program in conjunction with Seton came close, but the strings attached to the government and all the regulations and requirements above and beyond what was there became unreasonable, especially with my being on bedrest.
Because I'm a fairly new Catholic I wouldn't even know where to begin weeding through correct/incorrect doctrine to teach to my children, if that is the case with OLVS. We are traditional, and I do enjoy Latin Mass, but I also enjoy the Novus Ordo. Thanks again for taking the time to respond, your post is the guidance I was praying for. I think sticking with Seton, especially since my Husband is pleased, and maybe just finding new ways to teach the material besides endless (and sometimes seemingly pointless) workbook pages is best. Blessings!
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: OLVS vs. Seton?
