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Tina P.
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When do you say, "OK, Buster, it's time to buckle down and do your work, like it or not."? I realize that there things that we adults do that aren't exactly interest-led. Shouldn't kids understand that they have to do things that they don't like, too? They have to learn to be responsible at some point, don't they?
On the other hand, my oldest, who's 14, isn't thriving using MODG. He's reading "boring" books. He has to write a number of papers when perhaps a science-fair-type project would capture his interest. He likes Geology ... he just puts off the papers for weeks and gets away with it because I'm spent taking care of others. And we get further and further behind (following the MODG syllabus) every day. His interest is waning. My patience with his "school is stupid" attitude is waning. And even *I* don't always care for the MODG approach.
I've been researching different approaches to school and I'd love to hear any ideas you all have to bring joy back into our schooling.
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
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Erin
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Tina  If I remember correctly you've been struggling with this issue for a while. Don't know if I'll be much help as I struggle too with this question (and many of the same issues).
I always pull myself out of this funk by reminding/asking myself what is the purpose? Why does he have to do y? What is the purpose of y? Can the same be achieved by allowing him to do x, which btw he will do with a far happier attitude? For example if the purpose of writing those book papers is to learn to write, could he learn the same skills by writing a science paper which he enjoys? KWIM? Sometimes the answer is yes  sometimes no  Then the question becomes does he have to learn the skill now or could we try again next month/year? Only you can answer this (sorry no magic wand for you  ) and frankly our poor oldest children are our guinea pigs.
Oh the benefits my younger children receive as I have learnt a little wisdom via their older siblings. Yes sometimes we do have to say 'buckle down and simply do it' IMO I believe this is skill related areas, maths and language arts. I so regret not being firm in the skill area of language arts with my olders, they are now having to work so hard now in learning spelling and punctuation. I am playing it different with the younger ones.
I have bought joy back into our learning by our block learning days which I shared about here and here Essentially we only study one subject a day which is allowing a deeper immersion to take place and has taken away the schooly feeling we have been having for a long time. Slowly our joy is coming back.
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ALmom
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Ditto what Erin said - and yes, unfortunately no one can give you the magic answer. It really is something you have to prayerfully discern with your husband. I will say by way of comfort that even if you get it wrong, you do survive and learn from your mistakes (BTDT and will probably continue to bumble for some time to come).
I do have a hint or two that may help you figure out what kind of thing it might be.
At 14, couldn't your son be required to give you more
specifics about what is not working? I know that was one of the conditions for changing something - there had to be constructive criticism. "Mom, I just don't like all this touchy feely rommance for history (historical novels), couldn't I read (name of some biography, primary history source or textual overview)instead. I'd really like something that sticks more to the facts." That would be a very legitimate request. "Mom, all this stuff is boring and I hate it." is not. However in the requests that are not acceptable, I am fully willing to discuss what it is that they "hate" or why they think something is "boring." I guess, I make my children learn to communicate when something isn't working. Then they understand that I am not responding to "whining and fussing" of teens, but I will hear out a reasoned request. That way you are still communicating that we sometimes need to do the distasteful, but I am happy to make life easier, more pleasant, if it will serve your best interest. Guess this is what God does with us, right?
I have found that I have to understand why I am doing something a provider recommends. If their purpose for recommending it isn't clear, ask. Then decide if this is the same goal you have, or if there are better or more interesting ways to achieve the same goal. And, when you have really made a major blunder and gotten snowed under, sometimes it is more important to make it possible for the child to dig out than to accomplish every single thing. You do have to figure out how not to end up back where you started.
The other factor is discernment in terms of whether or not this is an avoidance thing based on fear and you need to provide a bit of confidence boosting while not allowing them to squirrel out of the assignment - or whether this really is one of those things that just doesn't fit the child or the family. A big clue that something is plain avoidance is when you have tried a huge variety of approaches and nothing works and each time they seem more and more stressed. Still, check with them, they may be able to tell you more than you think about what they do and don't like about something.
Sometimes it takes a few tries to find the right thing for a particular thing. Sometimes you have to take a break and introduce a new skill with a subject that is their favorite and then go back to learning how to write a paper for something other than science. The skills are transferrable to a certain degree but some things are very different and must be learned in the subject itself.
Sometimes you find you have a child with a writing glitch and it takes some extra effort to overcome this. In the meantime, you have to allow them to learn content without writing.
It is honestly a huge, often overwhelming maze. Ask Mackmom and Kim. I just had a huge cry on their shoulders Sunday. I will keep you in prayer as you struggle through this maze.
Janet
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LLMom
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Tina,
This is such a hard one. I have struggled with it a lot. Sometimes they do just have to buckle down and do things they don't like but what I have found is that I usually worry about this when they are way too young. I think if children have a burning interest that they will do the "yucky stuff" anyways. For example, my dd loves horses. But she doesn't like cleaning stalls and tack but she will do it because of the joy she gets from riding. Same as being a mom. I like most things about motherhood and the things I don't like, I do because of the joy I receive from the rest of it.
For children who want to go to college, I think if they are motivated to go, they will buckle down and do what needs to be done.
Also, I try to make our learning joyful and meaningful and leave the "learning to do things we don't like" to chores. We just have to do them and I require that they do them.
YOu just need to figure out what your "must do's" are. That may be different for each of us. Some who lean more towards unschooling may only require math and religion or even nothing. And although it may not all be fun, they can learn to do it without too much complaining and make it become redemptive. But I really think most learning can be a joy.
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Willa
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LLMom wrote:
| I think if children have a burning interest that they will do the "yucky stuff" anyways. For example, my dd loves horses. But she doesn't like cleaning stalls and tack but she will do it because of the joy she gets from riding. Same as being a mom. I like most things about motherhood and the things I don't like, I do because of the joy I receive from the rest of it. |
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Thanks for saying it so well -- that's what I was thinking but couldn't figure out quite how to say. I find my kids are willing to buckle down when it's something they care about, and as they get older they DO care about being a success.
Sometimes the harder I am pushing, the more they push back against me. Of course, there are times when I think it's good to push anyway. But I try not so much to have joy in the schoolroom, as to have it be productive and meaningful and as much as possible the child's own initiative. It's not always entirely possible, but I like to try to encourage them to take the reins more and more as they seem capable.
Not much practical help, I'm afraid 
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Willa
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Erin
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Willa wrote:
| But I try not so much to have joy in the schoolroom, as to have it be productive and meaningful |
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I was thinking about joy this morning during lesson time, what is it that we mean by joy? Interesting train of thought to explore, does perhaps it mean different things to different people, has the meaning for each of us changed as we have journeyed further along the road of homeschooling?
For me I feel joy when those lightbulb moments occur, when they make 'connections' maybe over their readings that they pull together or often over the common everyday 'grind'. This morning I had a couple of children get really excited over their progress in language arts, THEY could see the difference in their dictation and felt a sense of satisfaction in the hard morning they put in.
It doesn't have to be the 'we made an aqueduct this morning' joy, which is great but doesn't happen here too often but joy can come from the productive and meaningful. I'm inadequately trying to express/ask that they can be one and the same, can't they?
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My eldest isn't a fan of school work! This probably won;t help in your situation Tina, but here's what has helped him.
He has a checklist so he can see what needs to be completed. This has decreased the complaining as it's all there one paper.
I've also stopped stressing about what he's up to in terms of maths and LA. He's behind where *I* want him to be, but having a pushy stressed out mother's not going to improve his motivation! Findling out that a child in our hs group who is 2 years older than him and behind us in MUS has also helped me to relax.
We recently changed our spelling and english programme. This has helped enormously! I would never have thought that he would love Rod and Staff English. He keeps assuring me it's true!!!
I've also tried to get back to timed short lessons, and more living books, which my son adores. He'll no doubt always find some subjects "stupid", so I try to spend more time on the things he enjoys.
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Willa
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Erin wrote:
It doesn't have to be the 'we made an aqueduct this morning' joy, which is great but doesn't happen here too often but joy can come from the productive and meaningful. I'm inadequately trying to express/ask that they can be one and the same, can't they? |
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That's what I was thinking. When I first started homeschooling I thought everything had to be fun and inspiring, or I was failing in my goals.
Unschooling helped me with this, oddly. It made me see that learning itself is delightful. I was underestimating it, trying to sugar it up. I try not to make it bitter to the kids, so a lot of my unschooling/flexibility efforts are geared to getting out of my own way.
There was just a blog post over at Quiddity:
The Joy of Learning
It's not exactly on topic but it relates a bit to what you say, Erin, about the joy of finding connections and what the post calls "epiphanies", and some thoughts on how people learn.
ETA: I guess when I say "I don't try to have joy in the schoolroom" I wasn't intending to say that I don't care about joy. I was thinking, rather, that I can of course radiate joy but I can't MAKE my kids joyful. But hopefully if I try to witness to them about the joy of learning, and as I said, try not to make learning bitter but just focus on the "Good, True and Beautiful" then learning will have a chance to show its joyful nature. It sometimes takes a few years -- my 3 grown ones love intellectual things now but we certainly had a few tense moments when they were 13 or 14.
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Willa
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Leonie
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Willa wrote:
Unschooling helped me with this, oddly. It made me see that learning itself is delightful. I was underestimating it, trying to sugar it up. I try not to make it bitter to the kids, so a lot of my unschooling/flexibility efforts are geared to getting out of my own way.
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Nodding - there is joy in learning hard stuff or doing yukky stuff, when it is part of the bigger picture. And I see that in unschooling my kids - they don't necessarily give up when it gets tough.
That said, I do tend to just say "Suck it uo and do it anyway" occasionally.
it helps me to have only one or two things that I feel must be done, regardless. For us, its Maths occasionally and tidying bedrooms.
I'm flexible about most everything else.
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Heliodora
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While I try not to force frilly books on the boys or boyish ones on the girls, and I do try to make our lessons interesting and relevant, I only do this to a point. Kids have fallen natures too, and their tendency is to want to do as they please and take the path of least resistance.
Usually, I tell them, "suck it up." The rest of the time, I may remind them that if their father acted as they are right now, we wouldn't have a house or clothing or food. I also remind them that if they don't work hard now, they will find working in a factory or behind a fast food counter much more boring than finishing their Math lesson. When that doesn't work, there are consequences such as no regularly scheduled recreation or other things. The older ones especially need to learn that life isn't about having fun. I hand them their lesson plan at the beginning of the week and they are required to finish it by the end of the week, and they don't do anything fun until they do. If they finish early, they can do as they please. I have no patience with "boring-" there is plenty of work around here at any given time, so if they are "bored" I give them something to do, like cleaning the toilets.
I have been using the MODG as a guide(my oldest is seventh grade), but I do not follow it strictly. Have you looked into the Institute for Excellence in Writing for help with writing? That approach especially seems to help with boys who don't like to write. I have been incorporating it gradually in my school (it takes a while to get through the DVDs and even longer for me to assimilate it, lol) A science fair project would be a great break from endless papers. Just make sure he follows through on it. I know that's hard with others to care for- I'm going through the same thing myself.
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Heliodora
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While I'm still thinking about this- I think it is important that Dad starts to become more involved with school when they get older- especially for the boys. With Dad's involvement, suddenly things that were "boring" can become quite interesting. I'd like to read what Laura Berquist says about motivation- I'll have to look that up- but I see that does a lot to motivate my children.
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Barbara C.
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Well, I sometimes think the argument that "children have to learn that there are things that they have to do even if they don't want to" is kind of like the argument that "kids need to go to school so that they can learn how to resolve differences". I think those things are both natural extensions of life and not necessarily lessons that have to do with intellectual education. Outside of the school room most children have to do things all of the time they don't want to do like go to bed, eat healthy snacks instead of candy, stay with mom at the store instead of exploring, household chores, etc.
I think Janet gave a lot of good tips, especially about talking to your teen to get his input on the hows and whys. If you had an employee who kind find better ways of doing their job, wouldn't you want to encourage that? I would also look for more "real world" applications for what they might want to learn...internships, apprentices, household responsibilities, etc to make things seem more purposeful.
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Heliodora
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Barbara C. wrote:
Well, I sometimes think the argument that "children have to learn that there are things that they have to do even if they don't want to" is kind of like the argument that "kids need to go to school so that they can learn how to resolve differences". I think those things are both natural extensions of life and not necessarily lessons that have to do with intellectual education.
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I do personally disagree with this somewhat. I'm not an unschooler or child-led-only believer. I certainly don't assign busy work just to give them something to do, but as a firm believer in classical education, I think there are many things that children will simply not learn how to do on their own without direction. Some temperaments may be more geared to that sort of thing, but even then there will be things that kids shy away from. I think that these things are necessary to an intellectual education and that they discipline the mind and the ability to think. Learning to write and reading things that one may not necessarily have a natural interest in are essential in certain areas for a well-rounded individual. There is always room for adaptation and taking the child's talents and interest into account, but there are certain basics that must be maintained: both to focus the energy of the zealous students, and to give the less self motivated ones some basic structure to strive for. I believe that this becomes more necessary the older the child gets, especially if that child plans on going to higher education.
That's my opinion, of course, and I realize that there are many here who will disagree with me.
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Barbara C.
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I would have clarified more, but I had to run off to gymnastics class.
I am not a total unschooler, either. However, I think many people confuse what children "need" to learn with what they "want" them to learn. And not every child "needs" to learn the same thing. And I think many homeschoolers fall into that trap of just trying to do too much.
And sometimes kids do need a push to stretch them outside of their comfort zones. Like Janet kind of said, though, you have to look at what the long-term goal is and is it something worth stretching for rather than stretching for stretching's sake.. And sometimes with some kids they do better with real world purpose than seemingly arbitrary lessons. Writing an article to submit to their favorite journal may make more sense than a book report only Mom will read.
And I really think we're kind of comparing apples and oranges; while they are both fruit, they need different growing conditions. While education can influence behavior and behavior can influence education, I'm not sure that behavior is truly learned long-term if unpleasant aspect of education are forced long-term and vice versa. If anything you risk instilling the exact opposite long-term attitude of what you are desiring. Am I as clear as mud?
Of course, this may be easy for me to say now. I'm only doing about an hour of formal work a week with my oldest (almost six). Thankfully, she really enjoys math and is getting less frustrated with reading. I may be coming back to ask this same question in eight years when I'm banging my head against the wall. 
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Willa
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Heliodora wrote:
I think there are many things that children will simply not learn how to do on their own without direction. ...There is always room for adaptation and taking the child's talents and interest into account, but there are certain basics that must be maintained: both to focus the energy of the zealous students, and to give the less self motivated ones some basic structure to strive for. I believe that this becomes more necessary the older the child gets, especially if that child plans on going to higher education.
That's my opinion, of course, and I realize that there are many here who will disagree with me. |
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Well, I don't disagree exactly, but perhaps we are talking about a difference between means and ends.
Usually, unschooling doesn't mean "undirection". The unschooler guides and supports the child. The child is the primary agent in learning -- this has always been recognized in Catholic education -- the teacher's job is to help. Aquinas compares it to a doctor's role. But an unschooler will try to follow natural methods, working as much as possible from how the child naturally learns -- again, Aquinas recommended this.
Also, with the "basics" -- it's not that basics are NOT important to an unschooler, but that readiness and interest ARE important, important to the very nature of mastering the basics. Certainly I've noticed in my homeschool that a child, once ready, can fly into reading or multiplication or writing, whereas when unready the learning is slow and difficult and often uses parts of the brain that aren't as helpful to future learning.
And I've noticed that if I can take the time to get the child interested beforehand with something new, they make LOTS more progress than if I just hand them something to master. I don't do this well -- it doesn't come naturally to me. And some kids don't need it as much -- they seem to be driven to tackle new things. But for others, it makes a huge difference in retention. It's not that I try to make the learning "fun and games" but that I try to share my understanding of how it's worthwile/ interesting.
I like the point about the energy of the zealous student -- I do think that a little parental zeal is inspiring to many children. I've found that some well-placed pushing at times shows the children I care about their academic success. Sometimes there is a bit of tension in the short term and then later I see that the child has internalized a sense of why the disliked thing is important.
And I've noticed the kids do like -- not exactly in a fun and games way, but a satisfaction-meter way -- to get their teeth into a difficult challenge and master it even when they initially thought they couldn't. This is where I am a classical educator -- all the classical content and skills are rich, noble and significant in their own right, not twaddle. So there are definitely times when I "push" a bit, but I try to do it for the sake of the learning and be willing to change tacks temporarily if it's a real problem.
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Willa
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Interest vs. Force-Fed
