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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Oct 26 2005 at 1:53pm | IP Logged
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In a previous thread here, Janet mentioned that jr high and high school students appreciate not being so much "under the thumb" of Mom, and sometimes appreciate a more traditional school format.
I've been looking in my catalogues at different programs. If you have a child in Seton, MODG, Kolbe or anything else and its going well, could you share what its like and why you like it?
Its hard for me to imagine what it would be like to move to a program like this after using literature rich/relaxed schooling methods, but I am beginning more and more to think that ds might like this better as he gets older. He is already happier since I cut some of his more unit study schoolwork and just gave him a list of what he needs to read along with a date for either discussion with me, a short written summary or a quiz/test on the material. I'm hoping to find a program that won't insist on the Classical Education model (we aren't into Latin or studying Greece and Rome for years on end, here) and something that will still leave ds with some time to follow his own interests. We don't want to be chained to a school desk all day long! LOL He loves to spend time on his guitar and writing songs and I don't want to take that away from him. Also, if the program allows the child to be accountable to a person other than me, I'm interested in that, too. :0)
Eek...I'm late to pick up ds from his class day. Thanks in advance for any reviews/opinions offered!
Blessings,
~Books
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 26 2005 at 4:40pm | IP Logged
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Books:
Hope you don't mind me again and I'm offering this as just one perspective as I'm sure you'll find people who happily use everything you have mentioned.
We have settled on Kolbe for our high-schooler. Here is why:
retain control and flexibility as they will give a transcript as long as you send in a sample piece of work in each quarter for each subject(and it does not have to be one of their assignments) This means that if we get into the year and find out that dd has taken off on something and we want to go with it, we are free to without feeling like we're getting behind. We are also free to modify if something really isn't working - and not feel like we have to backtrack and do lots and lots of extra catch up stuff.
They provide tests so I don't have to make them up - this saves me time. However, I do retain final authority on both the grade given for the course and content and am free to modify the test any way I want. I have asked for advice on grading as my insecurity in this area was making my dd very stressed. The tests sometimes have questions on them that are somewhat obscure and sometimes are not in the materials that they have assigned for reading. We either make sure we have done extra research before hand in this area or white out the question on the test or don't count it.
I have access to someone if I have a question about how to grade or whether or not I have been too easy or too harsh in grading. I do not have to follow the advice if I do not agree with it, but sometimes speaking outloud to someone helps me sort through my own thoughts. They have given me very useful input on papers.
Most of their program is based on real books and the history relies on a lot of primary sources. They do not just read excerpts. They do recommend Latin for 2 years, however, our daughter was adament about taking a modern language and that is what we have done. They pick very foundational works for Literature - the kinds of things my dd might never have read without it being assigned but which we felt was important for an educated person to at least have some familiarity with.
The paper topics suggested (and they are suggestions) are thought provoking as are all the study materials and tests. It is not a memorize and repeat program. I really like the way they integrate the different subjects asking the student to compare something they read for theology with something in history, for example.
I am still free to take advantage of local opportunities that come up either through duel enrollment or coop without extra paperwork.
They have some sort of accredidation if that is important to you (it wasn't a big deal to us).
Price is less than the other 2 programs we had looked at (Seton and MODG) but more than Our Lady of Victory (we had other difficulties with them and would have gone nuts handing in daily work every 2 weeeks).
We wanted a little more support than just lesson plans, but if you just want plans you can purchase MODG plans from Emmanuel Books without joining the school. You can do the same with Kolbe.
Kolbe and MODG plans have similiar detail, but for some reason our dd couldn't figure out what to do with MODG(we used their American History plans or tried to and just couldn't make it work for us) and did fine with Kolbe plans. (I'm not sure why, I guess just a personality/style type of thing). Seton's plans were very, very detailed especially in grammar but didn't offer much help in literary analysis which is where we wanted the help. Most of Setons question and answers were repeat what the book said. However, they were laid out by the day with precise assignments. It all depends on what you feel you need. You can do Independent Study with Seton by the way (there is a fee and lots of extra paperwork) and they do not list other courses on their transcript at all unless you have done Independent Study. I guess the long and the short is that you can make any of them work for you - it all depends on what you are looking for.
Things we have modified with Kolbe:
Since I do not need a transcript from them, I do not hand in materials but use their plans, answer keys, consultation services and general outlines. They might have been able to help us more if they could see sample work from previuous years when I ask questions this year. I will do this more when I have others in the program. My goal and what they would be looking at is progress from one year to the next.
The reading and writing load is quite intense. I do not think it is realistically possible to do everything in every subject every year. We have finally (now that dd is 12th grade)settled on a plan. We emphasise one or two subjects and substitute in others. For instance, this year our dd is taking a coop British Lit class (had we needed Kolbe's transcript I would simply hand in papers/tests from this course as her sample work), we are doing Apologia Chemistry also not in their course plans but you can still get a standard college prep transcript/diploma from them by sending in sample work each quarter (probably not as adequate a science but our science background is lousy and it was the only science program we could find where this dd felt like she could learn something - other dc will take science at local university), Theology (we are using 9th grade Kolbe plans and following them very closely) and 12th grade Kolbe history plans (doing everything on the list), we are doing Spanish with a tutor using Seton materials and Advanced Math with Saxon (which they do in 11th grade but our dd did a seperate geometry course as I wanted her to do tons of proofs). As you can see, we still do our own thing. I use what I need from them to keep us on track and we substitute other things accordingly.
We did not start with them in 9th grade because I did not realize their support and flexibility and thought I had to spend 9th grade on Ancient Greece and 10th grade on Ancient Rome. We did Seton in 10th grade- our dd did quite well but was just memorizing and regurgitating and we were both annoyed at it. We've done Kolbe 11th and 12th grade. I do NOT recommend jumping around like we did - we've learned our lesson here. Better to stick with something and make it work for you. We're just glad we found what worked for us.
I'm contemplating having my 14 yo do a general survey of Western Civilization in 9th grade, Ancient History (taking things from Kolbe's 9th and 10th grade year)in 10th , then do the 11th grade Medieval year and then do the Modern History and call it U.S. History and Government. Anyways, the idea is that you don't have to stick with all the classical stuff if that is not your style. They are currently working on a substitute course for high school for those that do not want to dwell quite as extensively on the Ancient civilizations. I think I'll stick with Kolbe even if we end up using some individual courses from other programs because of their flexibility and the continuity it will provide for us.
There were some books in the literature units that we really did not want to read - felt it would be inappropriate for this particular dc. We either skipped it or substituted something else. Sometimes we felt a brief exposure was good, and read/discussed some excerpts but moved rapidly along. Some books she hated, we made her do anyways, like the Iliad.
One difference between Kolbe and Seton was the detail in the lesson plans. Kolbe's lesson plans are by the week. Our dd likes the freedom to pace herself and finds the guidance sufficient. I'm not sure if 2nd dd will find the instructions clear enough for her. I know you can ask Kolbe to send you some sample lesson plans to give you an idea of whether or not they would be helpful. The English and History plans provide more paper topic ideas and supporting materials than the theology.
Hope this helps.
Janet
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Natalia
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| Posted: Oct 26 2005 at 5:20pm | IP Logged
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Janet,
I just wanted to tell you that I appreciate your posts. I love how detailed you are. I am in the same boat as Books trying to decide what to do for hs - my oldest is 12. Your posts are always so helpful.
Thanks,
Natalia
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Oct 26 2005 at 6:59pm | IP Logged
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Hi Janet,
This is so helpful! I have a 2002 Kolbe catalogue. I guess I should order a current one before I make any decisions. 
I have this idea in my head that if we could figure out what ds wants over the next two years, then perhaps we won't have to hop around during high school...at least I'd like to try to avoid it.
I would prefer having the transcript option, but I am not going to do it if its just entirely the wrong thing for ds.
I have this feeling that ds would rather just regurgitate. He also doesn't seem to like loose plans...I tried to give him a "by the week" format this year, and he brought it back to me and asked me to just break it down for him into daily detailed lists. I don't know if its laziness...my dh says its not that, its just that most boys want the expedient method and don't want to be bothered with lots of projects and extra stuff.
I'm trying to decide if its a bad thing, just wanting someone to do all the planning and to just regurgitate, or if it just reflects a different learing preference.
I don't even know if he will want to go to 4 yr university, and we have determined to give our children the choice rather than insisting on college. His dream for the last two years is to be a contractor, but he's young enough that that could change.
Since you did a year with Seton, can you tell me what it was like? How long did it take each day to complete the work? I've only heard about the younger grades, and none of what I've heard is very positive. But I noticed that Kolbe, MODG and Seton all use the same books for at least a few subjects, which makes me wonder if they are as different as they say, kwim?
Thanks again, Janet. I appreciate your review so much!
~Books
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 27 2005 at 10:45pm | IP Logged
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We did Seton for 9th grade English and a full 10th grade year. The pace is very intense and it sometimes is tricky figuring out what they expect. However, they do have very specific plans (which is why we went with them for 10th)and are very good to speak with you on the phone and at other times.
The grammar is excellent, the math support was superb and in general it is a very good basic program. The science is silly - but that seems to be true with most homeschool science programs. Do you have a duel enrollment option there? If you have a dc that has a leaning toward math or science, I'd find an outside support for that and either pay the extra for a independent study program and put up with the paperwork. I think if it is done at a college, you just have to send grades so it saves some paperwork. Check with Independent Study when you talk to Seton.
I have a strong math background and need my support in literary analysis, guidance on how to teach writing essays in content area with lots of supporting materials and a little more of a script for how to discuss literature. I cannot keep up with this dc reading, but often she seems to miss the point in terms of really catching subtleties and connections between things so needs a lot of discussion. (She also tends to be very auditory). I found my dd wanting to know if she was on the right track before finalizing a paper - did she have the theme, etc. and I found Seton counselors hesitant to discuss this with me (as if this would mean giving the dc unfair advantage or we'd be tempted to skip the work and just give her the answer). However, the result was I couldn't read every book and couldn't discuss with her or help her much. She got frustrated and we'd go around in circles for months trying to read the graders mind. Sometimes different people graded the paper - and she would think she'd figure something out only to find out it wasn't what grader #2 wanted. I know this happens in college - but you figure out from paper #1 what is expected and then you can focus on what you are learning for the rest of that course. Also the grader is the person who has presented the material to you so they know what they expect and try to communicate that to you. I was the presenter but not the grader, so I was also trying to figure out what they would want so I could be sure we practiced those skills, and discussed those areas. I am not one to want to give my dc the answers but you can lead them to discovering things by the questions you ask if you know where you are leading them. You don't have to get used to a new grader in college until next course. In Seton, you can end up with a different grader for every paper. Since I wasn't strong in literary analysis and there wasn't much of help in lesson plans or answer keys and no real daily grades but what I gave, she got very frustrated with the papers (even though she generally made A grades).
We did a paper on Red Badge of Courage and she (with very valid points, I felt) decided that the main character did not mature. What she learned from that exercise is that it takes a lot more work to defend a point the graders disagree with than to just give them what they want. Therefore she wrote a research paper on all the advantages of homeschooling when she frankly thought homeschooling stunk. The choices for books, papers and research papers were very limited and sometimes uninspiring. The literature selections were excellent, but all the questions in the daily work were basically repeat what you read (World Lit and American Lit were a joke as it was all excerpts and open book and no thinking questions - just regurgitate what the book said.). Our dd needed help developing critical reading skills - this didn't hack it at all. However, without any leading questions to guide them, they were expected to do a great literary analysis discussing theme, character development, conflict and resolution, etc. These are all important abilities, but I needed someone to give me a list of leading questions so dd would be led to this.
I think the people who have found Seton a really good English program have a strong English/Literature background themselves and so were able to mentor/help the child in ways I could not. As long as you can discuss some of the literature with dc and your dc is a more layed back personality, this probably isn't going to be a major roadblock. Even with our dc easily frustrated personality, we could have handled the English for 4 years. We also did discover that you can hand in a paper for comment before grading - ie ask if you are headed in the right direction before doing all the detail work.
We could have dealt with all the other subjects but their History drove us nuts. It is basically memorize and repeat the book. I am a History major and while I don't remember a lot from my studies (and feel a need to have some outline of what major events/people we should address), I do recognize an agenda when I see it. The program is so adament about pointing out all that Catholics did well, etc. that it was actually backfiring with our dd. It came across as very triumphalist. She began to think there was an awful lot the Catholics had to hide and she felt like the history program was a virtual attempt to brainwash. I don't think it was quite that bad, but our dd needed something else quickly to keep a balance. In Christ the King, Lord of History, the author jumps around in time, and doesn't do a good job supporting her claims. With other programs you can deal with this because there is plenty of time alloted for real books and some analysis of other points of view. In Seton, there is a test each quarter that counts for 75% of the grade. They go through the entire book in one year. The answers expected are exactly what Ann Carrol claims and every detail seems to be expected in part of an answer somewhere and is repeated over and over for all the different people. I was very aggravated when our dd first test she got marked off for her answer about St. Paul. Neither of us could honestly figure out what else she could have said about the man. We never got a recommended answer to learn what else we should have known. It took us forever going through the program actually trying to learn - doing extra reading, making a timeline so dd could follow what was going on and trying to answer questions when the author had not done a good job supporting her points. We were well into the summer, getting burned out and making high Bs and low As. There were times we had to consult a secular textbook or encyclopedia to just get a handle on the sequence of events. My dd felt she was getting so far behind that she would never catch up (we were done with everything but history but could not start next years history until that one was finished and the thought of taking another 2 years to do a 1 year course was enough to make us desperate). Finally, we decided to expedite things - our dd basically began to read the book, I made a study sheet and she filled it in and memorized the whole darn book. She didn't learn a thing in the second half of the year but made 100% on tests because she acted like she was having a ball with history (while hating it)and said just what Ann Carrol said in her book - she actually answered one test question by saying:" .....according to Ann Carrol as best I can remember it without the book in front of me". She began playing games with them by seeing how much slang she could get away with on her tests, she even referred to the pope once as "that dude". We went through the 2nd half of the course in record time - and with better grades, but no learning. This dc was not strong in history to begin with and not particularly fond of it. We do know that even those history fans, if they try to really learn the history end up hating it when they are through with this Seton course. The ones that seem to do better are the ones who take it as a joke, do the quick memorize and forget routine and go on to what they like.
We were sometimes aggravated by grading. We felt they were unduly harsh on one paper and then dd was so mad she decided she was going to at least make all the graders work really hard so on her descriptive essay she went to the dictionary and found every archaic word she could find and used it in her paper. It was a ridiculous paper that made no sense and I was pretty ticke when she got 100% on that one. You really hand over a lot going with a program like Seton. They claim to be flexible and that you should make the program fit the child and not the other way around, but the flexibility is just in how long you take to do the work and in the home assigned grades. There is no flexibility in what they grade.
If you do use them, don't attempt to do every daily assignment. Look at what has to be handed in for grading and then backtrack from there highlighting those things you know your child might need to succeed and skip the rest. The courses are generally taught and graded like a college course - and the pace is about the same in many subjects. Also they do not emphasize math or science at all and only require a few courses. If your dc thinks he might be college bound, be sure he does more math and science than Seton requires.
Hope this helps. I do know that we made some comments about our frustrations and Seton does try to address and improve every year so you may want to talk with them directly as they may have changed some of the things we found annoying. Also you may want to talk to someone who has found the program working for them - they may have found a trick or two to make it doable. I do know people who have found it helpful.
Janet
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 28 2005 at 2:36am | IP Logged
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Oh I forgot to mention that Seton grading is a mixed blessing. It is frustrating to have no control here - I don't think I would mind as much if I felt that expectations were clearer and that there was more consistency. It was sure nice not to have the stress of trying to decide how to grade things, though.
I do also think that colleges have a point when they speak of conflict of interest with all parent grades. Scholarships are partially based on grades. And as a parent with a college bound student - I want her to make good grades and, of course, she wants good grades but I don't want to give her a grade she doesn't deserve and I tend to be tough to compensate or I stress over whether or not I really should have given that A. I have a hard time deciding on what grade to give in subjects like English and History that involve more subjective grading. I also think sometimes my dd was insecure with my grades just because I was the one giving them - until the same grades were confirmed via an independent grader. It's a lot of pressure for a parent.
Kolbe does not grade because they feel it is the parent that knows best 1) what was actually studied 2)how much effort the child put forth 3)what expectations were communicated in terms of the assignment 4) what will help the child make progress. They have given me advice on how to grade which has been helpful, but the stress is still there. I do appreciate that I am the one doing both the grading and presenting and that allows for grading based on what really was assigned and presented. I saw this with our Spanish where we had Seton and a tutor - the tutor strongly disagreed with a few Seton grades based on what she had not emphasized because it had not really been introduced yet (accent marks) and is generally not expected of high school students in schools. Now I'm not saying I know enough to say whether accent marks should/should not be learned in high school Spanish I, but it is unfair to grade off on a test that counts for 75% of your grade when they have not been marked off for every quiz the entire quarter. Seton took off for every missed accent mark on their quarter tests but the tutor had no way of knowing that Seton was going to do this and she had not marked off on any of the quizzes (parent graded item). Other times I felt that Seton rewarded my dd with high grades for shoddy work that I would not have accepted and I knew she was playing a game with them to see what they'd let her get away with. (her history tests and the descriptive essay). Some of this occured out of her frustration in not being able to figure out what they wanted in certain areas - she would be marked off on one assignment for something, do it in the next assignment and then get marked off for having it there (different graders for the same subject in the same year). So I know Kolbe has a point here, but I must admit I don't like the pressure of giving grades.
Seton also didn't give historical background to literature you were reading and sometimes I was annoyed with answers to questions - "don't worry it isn't on the test". We found that we would use different editions of literature than the ones they had just to get some of the background material. My dd liked the 9th grade assignments on Merchant of Venice but we hired a tutor to introduce the work to her (and didn't rely on Seton material to give her the background). She loved Shakespeare after that. We tried to do Dickens Tale of Two Cities on our own and she was frustrated in no time. I ended up purchasing a different text with footnotes because our dd was missing all the historical things and not following what he was talking about. I had to do a whole explanation of sarcasm - something she had never been exposed to before. She started reading the whole thing literally and was into 6th chapter before I could discuss with her. At that point it was obvious we had to go back to the beginning and start again. I could tell her - I am pretty sure this is a historical person, just don't know anything about them. I was ignorant and silly enough to search all my history books for some mention of this person. Called Seton and was told it didn't matter but at this point it was driving us nuts - finally got a nephew with a book that had footnotes and he told me all kinds of details about the person and someone finally explained to us that Dickons is full of references to historical people that are so obscure (maybe appeared in a local newspaper once but certainly nothing an historian would write about). She hates Dickons and would not read anything by him unless it was assigned. It would have been helpful if the lesson plans had included a description of sarcasm as a literary device, a timeline of the French Revolution with historical figures mentioned in the book included here and a little background on Dickons. I didn't know enough to try and provide this on my own and we were paying enough for Seton and shouldn't have to pay a tutor on top of that. It would also have been nice to have been using the footnoted text to begin with. I think our dd would have come away liking Dickons more - now what she remembers is that Dickons frustrates her.
I'm not sure why - but our dd is actually a lot more independent working in the Kolbe plans despite their more loose assignments by the week (even more independent than with Seton. It may be that Kolbe gives her more of the literature guidance so she doesn't have to come to me as much. Kolbe plans are not as detailed as Seton's but neither are they open-ended. I think that was what we had trouble with MODG with - their assignments were more general - write a paper. Kolbe actually gives a paper topic per week and the topic is specific although the parent is free to modify it if the parent/teacher desires. I do wish I had a cheat sheet that told me some of the main points that I should look for in grading the paper.
We've always liked the topics in Kolbe- but have modified some because topics one year often have you writing on something read in an earlier year - comparing Dante's hero(11th grade) to some of the Greek and Roman heroes(9th and 10th grades) and we hadn't read some of the material from earlier years. I like the basic approach of always reflecting on what you are currently doing in light of what you have learned or done in previous years and or in other subjects. I really think it helps the dc make some of those connections and it certainly discourages the memorize for a test and forget mode my dd will revert to when she feels pressure or lack of confidence. (I'm not totally opposed to memorize and regurgitate as long as it is long term memory at some level)
All of Seton's writing assignments were more of the book report variety - literary analysis (theme, character development, or conflict/resolution)and I think they had certain expectations in terms of the "correct answer". On Merchant of Venice she did have to write a paper on whether or not the character had been merciful according to the Quality of Mercy speech. I think they would have gone nuts if we had not taken a supportive point of view with the Catholic even though we felt there was a little force involved in the conversion to Catholicism. ( My dd and I discussed more of that on our own.) Their tests are basically repeat word for word practically everything studied this quarter. I think it lent itself to the grade pressure to just memorize the stuff, pass the test and forget. My dd to this day will have a name recognition and say - hey that was the character on the top of my study guide, but she cannot remember a thing about the guy. She learned with the first religion test that they liked lists - she made sure she memorized all the lists and basically did her entire 10th grade religion for the year in a few weeks time that way. I don't think that was terribly beneficial to her (she learned to put off her religion as if it were the least of her subjects)- someone who had to work at memory a little more might just by virtue of having to organize the material and practice reciting it - gain more of a benefit (and I do believe in doing some memorization of the Baltimore catechism, but 10th grade wasn't Baltimore Catechism it was Morality and the Sacraments and a time when I felt more thought provoking reflections and connections to what is going on around us would be more beneficial).
In Seton, there is a certain triumphant celebration of whatever is Catholic in everything you do with them. I don't mean this is bad necessarily when you are talking about Catholic truths but it makes you a little annoyed when every Catholic character has to be admired, every historical Catholic is celebrated, the Spanish did nothing but good in the new world (they do mention a Spanish or two like the Audencia but these were aberrations from the great and glorious march of Catholic influence throughout the world.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that they are a little unbalanced in that direction. I am afraid for a child that has always been homeschooled this is a grave disservice. For a child who has been steeped in anti-Catholic secularism their approach might actually be helpful but for us it was definitley more than we could take. I really wanted something more balanced and something that would lead dd to draw her own conclusions from the evidence. Also dd felt so stressed by all the tidbits of stuff she had to do and it all seemed so disjointed from each other, that there never seemed to be any time to pursue things or fill in on some of these memorize and forget courses. She is doing tons more reading and writing with Kolbe but not feeling nearly as stressed - although there still is some which I think is just this dc and part of her personality (is this a musical temperment?)
I don't think the triumphalistic tone aspect of Seton was so obvious doing a course or two at a time - but doing the whole year and having that sort of flavor in everything really did get to us. I still plan to use courses from them - particularly when I need some grammar and while I preferred more proofs with geometry, I did find their course worth doing and it did have proofs - I just wanted a course like the one I had where we proved everything we used, before we used it. I'd do it again. I have heard that some of the 11th and 12th grade English courses got better and were actually quite good. Seton does pick good literature and they do not ignore Catholic authors. Kolbe has some Catholic authors (Augustine, Dante and Chaucer for example) but there isn't a lot of modern literature until 12th grade (and then some of it is very sombre and none of it is Catholic). You are free to substitute with Kolbe but then you do have to come up with your own plans and materials for that(most of the moms on this board seem pretty confident along these lines, I just wasn't so I always want some sort of plans for my dc literature study - but using real books (Seton and Kolbe do both use great literature). I have thought of enrolling 2nd dd in single course with Seton or elsewhere for the literature and plans from time to time as a relief from all the heavy ancient stuff(and use Setons grades or my own and report to Kolbe - of course this would be rather expensive). Kolbe does also have a rather neat way of immersing you in the same time period in all your subjects - a benefit I'd miss if I were doing tons of literature substitutions. If you do substitute - say have a lit coop or something, you could end up using it with either Seton or Kolbe. With Seton you would have to describe the course, what books or material being used, count up hours spent on the course and the teacher, send in forms each quarter to include hours spent, sample work or test and pay an Indpendent Study course fee. With Kolbe, you would include the course in your regular listings and send sample work for each quarter along with the rest of your sample work for the quarter. No additional paper work or fees would be required
.
I hope I am not being unduly critical just because the full Seton program didn't work for us. I do know people who use them and get along fine. They have tended to have the same sort of criticisms but they needed/wanted the solid accredidation and made it work for them. I know a local history professor whose son's used the Seton program. He agreed with my criticisms of their history and told me that he just told his sons not to spend much time with the history course - just do it and get it over with. Then he designed his own courses and Seton accepted them - this, I think, was before the days of accredidation and so Seton was not locked into their courses. Now the only way around things is to pay the money and do the paperwork and do indpendent study courses.
Also, all the different providers are listening to the parents so improvements are being made. There are now some audio lectures with Seton, all assignments can be uploaded and you can recieve corrections via the internet so turn around time is much better now than in the past. I also think they have done things so that you can print lesson plans off the computer. They are modifying their Spanish II course to make it more Catholic. They may be considering offering a slower pace for courses and then designating the others as honors courses. I know Kolbe has introduced a new high school Biology text this year (it is secular but supposedly without the objectionable stuff you typically find in secular texts) I am impressed with the grade school texts (8th grade is sort of blah). They are also gradually revamping their lesson plans to allow for the parent to opt for daily or weekly plans. We have daily plans for our 8th grader. Our high schooler prefers weekly plans so I'm not sure if high school has those yet. I also heard they were coming up with plans for more traditional American History and Western Civ/World History courses. Be sure to talk to any providers you might consider. I'm sure both would send you some sample plans - I think Seton has some on-line now for you to look at.
A lot really does depend on the personality of the child, and what areas you feel a need for support. If you plan to enroll in Seton in 9th, you might consider taking some of their high school level courses in 8th grade as single courses to spread out the load - ie the composition course especially if dc is a strong writer and get a better idea if it will drive you nuts before you hit actual high school.
Janet
Oh, Seton and Kolbe use a lot of the same Fr. Laux texts for religion. Jennifer found that in Seton she could put off her religion until the end and then memorize the lists and made all 99% or above. She couldn't get away with that in Kolbe's plans. The questions were thought provoking - and unless she had pondered, she would not do well on the test. My dd is a great memorizer and had done the memorize the whole Baltimore Catechism thing in 6 grade Seton. I believe that Seton religion gets more thought provoking in 11th and 12th with more requirements to ponder and do some research, but we were not with them in those years. Kolbe has them read real works along with the Fr. Laux. So for instance, with Bible they will read documents of the church, and some of the early Father's of the Church. In 11th grade there was a whole quarter of spiritual reading. We felt this helped encourage the practice of the faith as well as the knowing the doctrine and liked the balance.
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Erin
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Natalia wrote:
Janet,
I just wanted to tell you that I appreciate your posts. I love how detailed you are. I am in the same boat as Books trying to decide what to do for hs - my oldest is 12. Your posts are always so helpful.
Thanks,
Natalia |
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Janet,
I second and third this. I really need this at the moment too.
__________________
Erin
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Bookswithtea
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Hello again,
Janet, this is just *awesome.* You have helped me so much in understanding this program!
I had to laugh at some of the stuff your dd did. It all sounds very typical of a traditional classroom based school, huh? I remember doing stuff like that, too. 
I don't really know exactly what will fit my ds the best. I can tell you he is not math and sciences oriented (neither am I). A program that was extremely strong in those areas would be a disaster for us, mostly because I would never be able to understand it well enough to teach it!
I've been thinking a lot about his personality...he has lots of interests, and they are good ones. He doesn't veg in front of tv's/playstation all day...he plays guitar and writes songs and builds forts (actually, its a shed that is going to be his fort). He's learning to hunt with a bow and arrow. He's an outdoorsy kind of person...dislikes sitting still for long (which is why he doesn't like tv based activities much), but also dislikes a lot of "head learning."
I don't think he really cares if he's getting an accurate perspective on history or not. He perceives me as an "expert" on the subject (its a hobby of mine) and willingly just takes my word for most stuff, which is kind of scarey because I try very hard to let him come up with his own conclusions. I try to provide 2 sides to the major points in history because its *my* pet peeve. Ds would rather just read a chapter and take a test. 
I suspect his thought on grades would be, "Well, if its no lower than a B-, mom and dad won't get after me so who cares why it wasn't higher." I was more like your dd. I argued once with a professor in freshman college because he gave me an A- and it was a subjective criticism. He told me to rewrite it and I told him I wouldn't because I thought my way was better.
I keep thinking, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." He's not dumb. He's agreeable to his schoolwork for the most part, does what he's supposed to do. But I can't make him *care* about the issues discussed. I can't make him want to learn. I can only provide an environment conducive to learning and hope that he is inspired (and honestly, that rarely happens). This last week I shifted his history program to a "read the text, read this literature and take a test" and you know what? He seems happier. He's taking a coop class for science with a similar format and he isn't complaining one whit about answering questions at the end of a chapter and studying for a test. In fact, he seemed kind of proud to me that the test seemed easy to him.
So I guess thats why I'm thinking Seton might be a better fit for him than the classical programs. I am concerned that if he does decide not to follow a 4 yr college plan it will be even more important that he have a valid diploma from an accredited program.
Re: Kolbe, I guess I should call them. I love their literature on subsidiary and it sounds like its a good balance of support and parental authority. But I don't know how they are going to respond to me turning their program into a nonclassical one for my ds. I'm afraid I might offend them if I ask too many questions about it. I already joined one classical school (hoping I could make it work) and after 12 weeks of misery and talking with people, was told, "It sounds like our program is awfully expensive for someone who already knows what you want to do. I would call and ask for a refund."
Thanks again, Janet. It helps so much to be able to bounce these ideas off of someone who is there.
Natalia and Erin~so glad I am not the only one struggling with these issues! Please post as you find out information too, so that we can muddle through it all together?
Blessings,
~Books
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Mary G
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Here's my $.02!
We use Seton for my 14yod who just came back to homeschooling. To give you some backgruond, she was in parochial school from K-4, 5- half of 7th she was homeschooled as we were in Austria, second half of 7 and all of 8th she was in a private Catholic school. This kid loves and thrives on the traditional model -- give me my assignment, grade my assignment, leave me alone.
For her, Seton is perfect! She finds it relatively easy I think because it is very much the traditional parochial school model. She has time to devote to her "electives" like German, Irish, Irish History and Home Ec. She never seems overwhelmed.
She does have some complaints about the terms used in grammar, etc and the lack of choice in papers, but as I said, she's used to not having a say in what to do....
I like the ease with which you can take tests online and keep track of grades online. I HATE having to mail quarterly reports, whereas online I can add as we go and thy tabulate the grades. You have a choice, Seton can do the main grade for the quarter (the quarter test or whatever) or you can have some input on the occasional assignments.
Their online stuff is amazing -- helps, contact with other students, contact with teachers, etc -- of all the high school programs, I'd have to say Seton is the best for using technology to its fullest.
We went with Seton because they are accredited which means that there transcript will be accepted by colleges -- that's why I don't fuss too much about the constraints or narrowness of their curriculum. I think they'd be hard-pressed to be accredited if they were too flexible.
That said, it's not at all a CM-type curriculum. My littles, who I will homeschool through middle school if not high school, would not do well with Seton. But for my 14yod it's a near-perfect fit. And I'd rather have her fuss to me about a Seton grader than have her fuss to me about me!
Just another side of the coin, ladies~
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3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
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Bookswithtea
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Hi Mary,
Thanks so much for chiming in. Do you think your dd has the similar approach to school that described with my ds, above? I think he could really relate to this:
"give me my assignment, grade my assignment, leave me alone."
How much time per day is your dd spending on schoolwork?
Also, have you had problems giving essays to the graders that don't come back with decent grades (not looking for all A's, just for decent grades) or seem just random? I think that would drive *me* crazy! lol
What about your strengths in teaching? Do you think you are more language arts geared so it seems easier for your family than for Janet, who mentioned that she was much more science/math geared?
Does any of that interaction with Seton happen between the child and the school, or is it parent to school oriented? I do like the idea of not being the final say for grades. I don't like how it makes my relationship with ds more teacher-ish than mother-ish.
I'm still kind of shocked that ds wants to do school traditionally. I never saw that coming! LOL
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ALmom
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Books,
If math is where you need your support, the math counselor at Seton is awesome - manages to show the kids how to do the problems on the message board and is thouroughly knowledgeable on the subject and will work with anyone until they "get" it. You can call the counselors everyday if need be and they really don't get annoyed at all.
If you use Seton, be sure to have free long-distance and let dc call and speak with the counselors. I had to do a lot of translating for my dd or trying to get a feel for what they were looking for in something but not wanting to just hand it to dd. Some of the problem was her perfectionist personality(and mine) - not the counselors. Also we were in the midst of a difficult homeschool year where dd felt hemmed in by homeschooling and was needing a lot more contact with the world at large - which Seton kept cautioning against or any time she was stressed (which is this dc normal reaction to anything she doesn't get 100% first time)we would be told to cut back on activities. I was stressed with all the "I hate homeschooling" and the pull of the world on her. She had had a very full, thouroughly Catholic exposure and had always homeschooled and at that point she just needed to be able to explore more in other points of view to balance our own educational approach if that makes sense. I think she sensed the fear Seton had of damaging exposure to the world and it fed the frustration. I do think these things would not necessarily be a problem for others. And, by the time you are done with Seton, I do believe the dc will be able to hold their own.
I do know a hs here who did full Seton for all four years and also the public high school(her only way to get into something at the school). She ended up with a diploma from both so it is not as time consuming for everyone.
In English, if your papers are organized and have some reasonable supporting evidence and decent spelling and grammar, you will typically at least get a B. I should explain my dd would want to redo 98% papers trying to figure out what things she was supposed to improve and reacted to a B as if she had flunked. It was part of our - perfectionist tendencies which we still fight and the we always learn from our mistakes/mathematical mentality. Her/Our frustration with this has to do with our personalities. My 2nd dd loves the comments she recieves from her papers with Seton. She is a lot more laid back and doesn't get sucked into the grade thing (very refreshing difference) We have only done a single grammar course with her and not a high school level one so we're not talking tons of papers here.
I would recommend getting a booklet "Parent as Counselor" from Kolbe. It's very inexpensive and does a great job reminding you about when various things are available, how a child can graduate from hs high school and meet requirements for sports participation in college, etc. I wish I'd had it when dd was in 8th. Seton didn't provide as much support in this regards and I think they assumed you would go to a fully Catholic college.
We also have no set assumptions about college. We actually assumed dd was not going - she had expressed as much, but then changed her mind and we were unprepared. Better to know all the different paths ahead of time, and keep dc options open. We had to scramble to cram in 2 lab science courses for her music major goals (total shock to me) and I hope and pray she'll somehow manage through the few college science courses she'll need in college as we are woefully deficient here.
Our dc always seem to take us on interesting rabbit trails don't they.
Know that God will lead you and dh and dc to the right place for you. I felt guilty for years that we didn't seem to be doing all those "great and wonderful" things we had seen other folks do and that our schooling began to look a bit more bookish in high school - but our dc is learning better, enjoying it more and stressing less. For whatever reason, this allowed her to really pull things together and build confidence and we probably should have done it sooner with this dc. Every child is so different, so even though I know what works for this one, I'm still not 100% sure where we'll be next year with 2nd dd who is in 8th grade. Hopefully I'll stress less as this is the 2nd.
Janet
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Mary G
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Hi Mary,
Thanks so much for chiming in. Do you think your dd has the similar approach to school that described with my ds, above? I think he could really relate to this:
"give me my assignment, grade my assignment, leave me alone."
How much time per day is your dd spending on schoolwork?
Also, have you had problems giving essays to the graders that don't come back with decent grades (not looking for all A's, just for decent grades) or seem just random? I think that would drive *me* crazy! lol
What about your strengths in teaching? Do you think you are more language arts geared so it seems easier for your family than for Janet, who mentioned that she was much more science/math geared?
Does any of that interaction with Seton happen between the child and the school, or is it parent to school oriented? I do like the idea of not being the final say for grades. I don't like how it makes my relationship with ds more teacher-ish than mother-ish.
I'm still kind of shocked that ds wants to do school traditionally. I never saw that coming! LOL
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Books,
It does sound like you son might fit the school at home mode that my dd thrives on. It is such a shame, because I think if I had been smarter way back when, I would never have put my kids in parochial or private school. But so be it -- so we go to their strengths -- oldest (16 yos) is still in private Catholic school and loves the social and gets high Bs (and is always asking for money for a class ring, letter jacket, Halloween costume day....  ); 14 yod is doing well with Seton. She and I are both more English/Language than Science/Math. But dh has a PhD in biological sciences so he helps her with the biology....
We haven't seen much problem with the grading -- I think I'd actually be harder. I believe she is getting better grounding in grammar than ds did as a 9th grader at his school. Her vocab, spelling and english are much better, IMHO.
All our contacts have been via internet -- we have a cable hookup so it's fast, no extra online fees, and has been satisfactory so far. She is much more on there than I am; I've had minimal dealings with Seton because Cate likes to be in control (did I mention she's 14  ).
Now, my sil has 10 kids and most of them are doing Kolbe Classical -- Idid that for a bit when I hs'ed Joe and Cate for the 2 year stint -- but I think that's way out there if you are math/science as there is so much reading, writing papers, and analysis -- too much, I think!
Seton is a good middle-of-the-road, accredited program that still allows Cate to have her afternoons to herself. She can get done by lunch time with all but Algebra which she finishes up right after lunch. She then works on German, Irish, Irish History and HomeEc -- all "electives" that we'll portfolio to add with her Seton transcript. Seton will add a "homegrown" eleective to your transcript, on a per course fee basis, but it's just as easy for us to track it with portfolio and test scores (i.e., she'll attempt the GermanAP test junior or senior year)
Hope this helps -- holler if I can give more $.02 worths!
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Bookswithtea
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Well, I overcame my nervousness and called Seton today (don't ask me why I was nervous...I just was! lol).
What nice people! I talked with the head of the high school counseling dept (as in guidance counseling, I think). He told me that their web site is a waste of time and totally outdated. He was *very* honest about the strengths and weaknesses of their program. He said that even three years ago, their reputation as a "do our program or go elsewhere" was very accurate. He said thats just not the case, anymore. They are working on adding more and more options for each level and subject. They have students using several different science and foreign language curricula (all the well known stuff), all accepted without a problem for credit. You'd never guess that from their web site, though. He said they are going to be offering a basic grammar program for 1/2 credit (would go as an elective) to help kids who may not be prepared for their rigorous grammar program, and if they still need help, they'll find a way to get the child ready so they don't fail. This could also be taken in the 8th grade for high school credit. They also accept any local programs for credit that are accredited (ie...comm. college courses, courses at the local high school, voc. tech stuff, etc). And they have an independent study option that can be used to give children credit for more out of the box subjects like children who are musically gifted and spend hours practicing, even though its not technically "accredited."
He did say that they don't allow much in the way of substitutions for Religion, English (except their own alternatives), or History (he was honest that there were problems with their history program too, but didn't get into details). The rest is quite open.
I asked if they had a scope and sequence for 9th grade that I could use to guide my curriculum for the next two years so that ds would be ready if I decide to go this route. Even though they don't, he's going to put something together for me and send it in the mail. :-)
Bottom line...they are more flexible than I thought. Some of the negatives of their reputation may be outdated at this point. I came away from it feeling better than I thought I would.
I thought I'd share since others are researching and trying to figure out the best options for their soon to be high schoolers, too.
~Books
(cross posted with SL Catholic loop)
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Erin
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Thought I'd chime back in.
I'm not thinking of going strictly the way of a set course, I guess because it is just not the way I've homeschooled up until now. And although dd12 is academic she is lacking in discipline. My fault  changes shall have to be in instalments.
Also being Australian I find there is often (from our viewpoint) too much emphasis on American history at some stage so I would always have to adjust there.
Then I seem to look at many religion requirements and 'tweak' there as some texts don't appeal. Actually I like the sound of Mercy Academy's Religion outline. similar to what we have already been doing. (Sorry I haven't figured out how to do these links yet)
Have any of you looked at Angelicum Academy's booklist? I was thinking of using some of their titles. And write up my own outline.
Really I think I could write up a set course for her just taking a more systematic approach, which we haven't done before. Usually I just write up something term by term. They other thing to decide is up until now all the children like to study the same subjects together. So do I continue this way just requiring further study from dd.
I feel our weakest area is writing. Although I am hoping that Lingua Mater may fit the bill here. Dd can write really well but quantity is VERY minimal. Recently I did design a unit on Australian history, in sequential time, she was happy to read the readings but wouldn't write the papers I set.
I guess really it comes done to the fact that when I design something I am going to have to expect some more application. What frustrates me the most is that all of my children are capable of far more than what they do.
Janet,
I was most interested in what you had to say about Seton's history, my mum used Seton with my siblings(I'm afraid it turned me off, although I've heard Seton's changed alot since then). Anyhow I would have to say I would agreee with your assesment, coupled with that my mother also strongly took that stance and it is only in recent years that I have been questioning some of what my mother taught in that area.
Recently I was reading to the children the story of Christopher Columbus well I cetainly made sure I discussed with the children that there was another side to the whole thing. I know that not all texts would do this.
I feel stongly that we need to teach our children to be discerning. To THINK. I guess that is what appeals to me about classical education it is proported to teach thinking. (Another area I know)
Now I'm not being clear. I'll bow out.
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Erin
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Becky Parker
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These posts have been very helpful to me. My ds is only in 6th but I am trying to look down the road a little and make sure I have some sort of game plan. The discussions about Seton and Kolbe have really given me a lot to condider. I'm wondering about MODG. Aren't they accredited as well? I have to admit, I'm a little hung up on that accreditation thing. I'd really like to use Seton, Kolbe, or MODG as a spine and tweak it as I have been doing, but when I do that it seems silly to pay enrollment fees (which is why we haven't so far). My fear is that in all my tweaking I'll do something that will hinder my ds's acceptance into a college. Anyway, back to my question, does anyone have experience with MODG highschool? Thanks!
Becky
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Erin
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Becky Parker wrote:
| I'd really like to use Seton, Kolbe, or MODG as a spine and tweak it as I have been doing, |
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Becky
I've also wondered about MODG. And have you checked out the Regina Academy? It appears to be more an online course, which could work well with dd.
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Erin
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Kelly
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We just started using Regina Coeli Academy this year---per recommendation and much helpful discussion on this message board---and have been very pleased with it. My dd, age 12, is taking 2 middle school classes (a composition class and a lit class) and 1 highschool Latin class, and is enjoying everything. She is very organizied, and never seems particularly overwhelmed with work, tho I think their classes are fairly rigorous. She is really loving the "connection" with other hs-ed kids, too. My ds, 9th/10th grade, is taking 4 classes thru them (lit, bio, Latin and RE), as well as WriteGuide for composition. For him, the first month was a real struggle, the science class is especially challenging and LOTS and lots of work...BUT he's emerging from it a better, more disciplined person, better organized, and he's really learning. He also enjoys the format. He's also doing AL II thru Seton, not much joy in it, you just do the work and send it. On the whole, the RCA experience has been very good, and a welcome change for both dc. Plus, it has given me more of a chance to work with the younger set. And as far as being chained to someone else's schedule, RCA has actually been pretty fluid. As long as we have a laptop, we can travel and still do classes.
Kelly in FL
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Erin
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Kelly wrote:
| We just started using Regina Coeli Academy this year---per recommendation and much helpful discussion on this message board---and have been very pleased with it. My dd, age 12, is taking 2 middle school classes (a composition class and a lit class) and 1 highschool Latin class, and is enjoying everything. She is very organizied, and never seems particularly overwhelmed with work, tho I think their classes are fairly rigorous. She is really loving the "connection" with other hs-ed kids, too. ..... RCA has actually been pretty fluid. As long as we have a laptop, we can travel and still do classes. |
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Kelly
This is great to know. Although the dollars seem rather steep. We always have to just about double our dollars to yours.
Actually I was just reading St Thomas Aquainas Academy's blurb and it seemed good too.
Is anyone else in my situation?, we have never used any 'program' and only one textbook, maths. So I don't want do something that would be too big a shock.
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Erin
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Bookswithtea
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***Actually I was just reading St Thomas Aquainas Academy's blurb and it seemed good too. ***
I have one friend with a Real Learning bent who quit this school because the paperwork to keep up with their plan was overwhelming her. That's all I know about it, though.
***Is anyone else in my situation?, we have never used any 'program' and only one textbook, maths. So I don't want do something that would be too big a shock.***
Its going to be a HUGE change for us, too. I'm hoping to spend 6th and 7th grade slowly converting some of our subjects to a bit more traditional model so that high school won't be such a shock.
Is Regina Coeli an accredited program? I don't know much about it.
Re: MODG...I'm not sure they are very open to changes in their program, or if they are, it will depend on what subject you want to change. I was with them for all of 12 weeks (long story as to why I signed up in the first place) before I was advised by MODG representatives that my vision wasn't really very classical and and I might be better off elsewhere ...I was trying to make some changes to a bit more relaxed pace (too much grammar) and more of a CMish approach by changing the poetry selections to different ones. They were very polite about it, mind you! I wasn't offended. But it really helped me to crystallize that working with a Classical school is not right for my family, even if I like some of their ideas.
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Erin
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Hi
Thought I'd chime back in. Many of us here were sharing our thoughts and ideas as we were searching for our highschoolers. In fact a few of us were in similar boats with 12 yr olds. I was just wondering what decisions you made. (Am I nosy?)
We are on a six week holiday here. Starting back at the end of January I will have a highschooler! I've pretty much got an idea of what I'm doing, just have to compile it all together.
Love to hear what you all decided.
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Erin
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Traditional HS High School Programs
