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Karen T
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| Posted: Oct 18 2005 at 11:22pm | IP Logged
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Not sure where this should be posted. I am getting so discouraged with ds 12. We started hs last year in 6th grade after he was in public school up through 5th. We had the usual adjustment battles but overall I felt he was learning much more than in ps. Over the summer he continued to do math (just Key To series, a few pages per day, nothing too strenuous) since he'd been behind in math after ps. He was very agreeable to doing this and didn't complain over the summer. We've been back in "regular" schedule now since late Aug and it has been one battle after another. He actually likes the various curricula we're using this year better than last (Latin Road to English Grammar instead of Latina Christiana, Saxon instead of MUS, etc.) and was doing pretty good work, when I could get him to do it.
He procrastinates much of the day, then complains about not having free time with friends (who don't even get home from ps until about 5:30 pm anyway). I have to work 2 long days per week and dh is home those days; ds has a written schedule for the whole week. I work closely with him on the days I'm home but make sure his days without me have stuff he is fully capable of doing on his own. There is always some excuse, he couldn't find a book he needed, he didn't understand the directions (ask dh!), he thought I only meant read the assignment, not actually DO it, etc etc.
Because of his attitude I end up working very closely with him all day on my home days (if I leave the room for more than 5 min he's on the floor playing with the dog, or getting a snack, etc.). But this year I've added my 5 yo to our hs days, with kindergarten. His "lessons" are very informal (I'm mostly using CHC's stuff) and don't take long, but he needs and deserves my undivided attention. Also, the older boy's bad attitude about school has affected the younger one; he (younger) at first complained and whined about doing anything, until he saw how much fun it actually is. But he admires his big brother and is definitely affected by it.
Last week I announced to older ds that I cannot make him get an education; he has to want one. I have done nothing for school with him since. He does read a lot on his own so I made sure to get several library books for him in our basket. I am hoping eventually he will get bored and/or begin to mature a bit and realize what he needs to do. In the meantime, I have some extra time to spend with ds5.
When ds12 left public school, we never did the "deschooling" many people recommend, ie, just taking several months off doing nothing. At the time, dh was less than convinced of hs-ing, and I felt like I had to produce results quickly. Dh is now a firm believer in hs, but agrees now that things aren't going well. I'm not sure how long he'll tolerate ds doing "nothing" though. But we both agree that our middle school would be a horrible alternative.
Do you think just giving him some time now is the best thing, and he'll eventually come around? This is a kid who has never been able to self-motivate. For example, in Scouts, which he loves, he never looks for ways to work on merit badges, etc. or learn new things. He'll do the requirements b/c an adult advisor pushes them but if not, nothing would get done.
BTW, not sure if there is any relevance or not, but he is quite gifted academically. He had trouble in ps with math but mostly b/c he was too embarrassed to ask for help when he missed something, and he got farther and farther behind. He does very well in at home now. So the procrastination, etc. is not b/c he struggles with the work. However, he does put unreasonable expectations on himself - if he gets a 90 on a math test, he's mad b/c he didn't make a 100 and says he's stupid, etc. We have never made a big deal over grades in ps, except when we knew he wasn't doing the work. I don't grade his math homework, only circle mistakes and we go over them together, usually careless mistakes rather than true errors. I have been grading the tests only to give us both some idea of how *well* he's done, but it's apparently not enough!
Karen T
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kristina
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| Posted: Oct 19 2005 at 1:00am | IP Logged
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Karen,
I do not have experience with an unmotivated 12 year old... just an 8 year old. I am sad to admit that one of the few things that work to motivate him is an incentive (either a loss of a planned activity or an earned special reward). The other thing that helps is doing work with a timer. 15 minutes to complete a lesson, then a chunk of time to go and play with his younger siblings. The difficult bit with that, though, is reeling him back in afterward.
Last year in February I gave up nagging, bribing, etc.. and just let him do free reading and activities with his brothers. I ordered a different math program (math-u-see dvd's are such a mom-saver!) and started up again in March with formal lessons. He completed the Beta program as well as his CHC grammar, etc.. by June. I am convinced that the break was just what he needed.
Oh, another thing that helps me encourage my son is to remind him that his name and +J.M.J+ or A.M.D.G. goes on the top of the paper and I say, "Do your very best for Jesus." Since I do not make it to daily mass at this season in our lives  , I often make the very first task for our day to be reading the church readings. They are e-mailed to my inbox and our boys like to sit and take turns reading them aloud at the computer. Beginning the days lessons with prayer and Sacred Scripture sets the tone for the day. When we do not do this, I see a marked difference.
From what I have heard from other moms of boys is that most boys would prefer to play than do lessons. If school was nothing more than a boring frustration for your son in ps, then lessons are the last thing that would appeal to him. Many brilliant people are master procrastinators so your son has plenty of company. I am curious to read what other moms have to say.
I will include you and your son in my prayer intentions.
God Bless you,
kristina
mom to 4b, 1g, 1 ^i^ and wife to their dad.
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Karen T
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| Posted: Oct 19 2005 at 11:51am | IP Logged
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Thanks Kristina. I'd really like to stay away from incentives b/c I think that is a big problem already. In ps, *everything* had an incentive. They also had 'snack time' frequently, plus candy and animal crackers in the room at all times for the teacher to hand out. So now he thinks all lessons come with food and/or play time.
We've tried taking things away but mostly it's been for outright defiance, talking back, etc. and it has never made any difference. he can have a week or two of no friends, no TV/computer, etc. and the day after release, do the same thing again. he knows no matter how long he takes at doing his schoolwork or his chores he won't have friends, etc. until then, but it doesn't phase him.
Yes, I am praying. Haven't stopped in years 
Thanks,
Karen T
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Sarah
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| Posted: Oct 19 2005 at 1:42pm | IP Logged
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My ds 9 is very similar. Very hard to motivate when it comes to anything. I tried lapbooks-he got too frustrated over very silly things like edges of a folded book that wouldn't match up, or erasing too hard and got a hole--big deal, get over it. He is nearly impossible to switch gears with or change plans. Some days I get so down with dealing with him. I don't have the solution. However, I'm sure of one thing and that is that I'm raising a son who will be someone someday. Sometime in his life he will have to go to work, even though he doesn't like it, to possibly provide for a family, or get up and offer Mass when he doesn't feel like it, etc. And catering to his whims of what he feel like won't help my son. He can't see the future for himself. Wew know better for him so it can't all fall on him. Perhaps until they are well into teen years can we say that their education is all up to them. Just like we need to feed them good food before cookies. We can't give them a choice on whjat to eat for dinner until they can make responsible decisions. That is not to say that he must be over extended or burned out by us cracking the whip. But, if he wants to have a future he's going to have to stick with something, figure out that even if he makes mistakes at math (my son has the math error hang-up, too) or whatever, he needs to move on. I'm here to cheer him on.
My son needs a schedule and when he doesn't complete that schedule or routine (and it has to be age appropriate and reasonable), there are consequenses. Just like if he were grown and didn't want to go to work-there are consequences. If I were you, and you can take or leave my advice, I would find out something that would bug him and make that the consequence. People say that the consequence should be logical, but in this case that would be too far in the future for him to see (i.e. failure to have a good education). In our house, going to bed after dinner is torture or having to do the undone work when everyone is doing something fun. For example, clearly state reasonable lesson, making sure he understands what he is to do, and clearly telling him if this is not done by "X" you will go to bed after dinner. Or if this is not done by the time we do X as a family, you will not join us. No arguing, whining. No second chance. This has done wonders for my son. In order for this to work, you have to be cheerful the other hours of the day, plan things that are fun, make sure you are reasonable in what you request of him (can he really do this alone? We start our school day with his favorite subject-history with me reading aloud. Maybe he doesn't have the skills to do whatever it is in its entirety-break it up into 15 minutes spurts). Make sure he has access to a clock. My son wears a timex timer that I require him to set. Another one of my more spacy kids has a timer that beeps at him frequently to bring him back to earth. Maybe a watch that beeps hourly when you are not there. Incidentally, these can be purchased for about $20 at a sporting goods store and it beats my voice in their ear.
Another way to get success is to have your husband back you and to have him follow through with your plan. He has to step up to the plate when you're not home. Boys need their dads. Homeschooling moms with boys need their dads.
Also, its better to have several things that you are getting compliance on than a whole bunch of stuff that he despises and doesn't work. For example, make sure he reads, writes something, even if its a paragraph, does some math each day. Maybe just do that much until you have compliance. I think at this point working up to a full curriculum would be better. Maybe he looks at the whole thing and thinks "whoa, way too much!" I'm just speculating here without really knowing.
My opinion for what its worth.
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Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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Taffy
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| Posted: Oct 19 2005 at 3:09pm | IP Logged
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Sarah,
These are some really good ideas! I've been having similar problems with my oldest and know in my heart that what you've described is exactly what my ds needs. Unfortunately, I need the discipline myself too  !
I'm off to finish our day and quit procrastinating now! Schedules here I come! Now, to think of some consequences for ds and for me 
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Susan
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Oct 19 2005 at 8:57pm | IP Logged
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kristina wrote:
| Oh, another thing that helps me encourage my son is to remind him that his name and +J.M.J+ or A.M.D.G. goes on the top of the paper and I say, "Do your very best for Jesus." |
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Thanks Kristina for this gem!!
kristina wrote:
| Since I do not make it to daily mass at this season in our lives , I often make the very first task for our day to be reading the church readings. They are e-mailed to my inbox and our boys like to sit and take turns reading them aloud at the computer. Beginning the days lessons with prayer and Sacred Scripture sets the tone for the day. When we do not do this, I see a marked difference. |
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Wow - Another jewel! I just signed up!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Oct 19 2005 at 9:26pm | IP Logged
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Hi Karen,
Our 2 oldest dc are boys (11 & 10) and we go through similar "issues." Like Kristina, I try to focus alot on the spiritual side of things. Has your son made his confirmation yet? Both of our sons have and we talk ALOT about the sacrament of confirmation and the graces that come with it. We also talk about the VIRTUE of studiousness and how God has called them to be "students" at this time in their lives. I try to help all the children maintain a "holy" presence throughout the day - no uncharitable words to or about others (i.e. no tattle-tailing) and a respectful attitude toward siblings and parents. We keep the holy water fonts filled & children are directed to bless themselves and say an act of contrition in front of our altar when behaviour is not where it should be. Also they have holy time-outs when they look at a crucifix or read from their prayerbooks. I'm currently reading The Story of a Family about St. Therese of Liseux's family and finding it very helpful. It is truly a handbook for raising saints.
I wholeheartedly agree with Sarah about consequences. Our boys go to a local friary to work for a day about every other week. This is something they really look forward to and know this is a privilege that must be earned.
I can't agree with Sarah enough on dad's involvement. Your son is so blessed to have that time with his dad! Would your husband be willing to take over with school? When I suggest to my sons that if they don't get their work done they'll have to do it that evening with dad, they tend to get it done during the day  .
Karen, I really know how hard this is and I hope you find something here helpful. I used to be very frustrated by it all. As Kristina mentioned, boys will play all the time if left to their own devices. (Thank God that He gave me a sweet 6-year-old dd who thinks writing out her catechism is FUN!) What helped me the most was weekly Adoration. Things have really turned around. I can honestly say that both boys enjoy their lessons. They've changed, but so have I. I spend a large chunk of the day entirely with them (i.e. no telephone, no computer). I'm seeing that their motivation comes, in large part, from my involvement in all the things that they do.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Tina P.
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| Posted: Oct 20 2005 at 8:25am | IP Logged
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I would sometimes like to send my 11 yob to some kind of camp where they straighten boys like him out!
What a worry to their mothers. And I have three other boys. Thankfully, so far my 2 yob still loves me enough to try to please me. As for the others, they could care less. It takes several yoohoos to get the kids down from their play areas and into school mode to begin with. Then, if I so much as turn around to make a meal or take care of my newest bundle, I here wild laughing and running through the house in a matter of seconds. I sometimes feel like my boys are vying for the world record quickest shift from school to goof-off.
How can we touch these boys' hearts to let them know that obedience equals love? I've preached and preached this but I think, like you all, that mom's voice means practically nothing. Like St. Monica, it seems all we can do is pray. Someone else, perhaps, has to influence the boys. And to keep that influence positive, perhaps we have to just keep going where the people whose influence we want to encourage are.
I have this theory that boys are more self-centered than girls (maybe this is nothing new to you?)  They seem not to comprehend that their actions have consequences, whether good or bad. The worst consequence that the kids don't see or care about is my early aging. To some extent, it's true. I get so worn out by all the arguing, ignoring, and complaining. I think I'm going gray earlier than I would have if I had cooperative kids.
I pray a decade of the rosary for each family member every day. I try to make the mystery fit what I'm praying for that particular family member. My oldest son seems to go through cycles of behaving like a wonder child and then constantly asking for help from his uncooperative brothers and bullying them into it or calling names or arguing/complaining (mostly not about homework anymore, though he absolutely loathes writing and will do the absolute *least* he can get away with).
I have to go. Some wild things need to take a jog around the block to kill some energy. 
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Oct 20 2005 at 11:22am | IP Logged
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Tina P. wrote:
| I would sometimes like to send my 11 yob to some kind of camp where they straighten boys like him out! |
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I think that's where the idea of "military training" came from - i.e. send him to the military, that will straighten him out! Employing some of those "discipline" techniques in our homes can be worthwhile. Many things that I used to think were "useless" in that they are repetitious or tedious, I now see as a discipline. There are many examples, for instance copywork, folding clothes, running laps, etc.
Tina P. wrote:
| How can we touch these boys' hearts to let them know that obedience equals love? I've preached and preached this but I think, like you all, that mom's voice means practically nothing. Like St. Monica, it seems all we can do is pray. Someone else, perhaps, has to influence the boys. And to keep that influence positive, perhaps we have to just keep going where the people whose influence we want to encourage are. |
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Great question & some good thoughts. I do think mom's voice matters alot, especially when it's backed up by dad's. After all, St. Augustine did eventually come around  . OTOH, with homeschooling & boys there is often what I like to call "too much mom". They do need outside influences (especially with other boys & men), more so than the girls do. After all the role of men is to go out into society.
Tina P. wrote:
| I have this theory that boys are more self-centered than girls (maybe this is nothing new to you?) |
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Maybe that's true, but self-centeredness is at the root of every sin so, as parents, our primary goal with our children is to help them focus on others from the earliest age. This was very much the case with St. Therese's parents. Their children were taught mortification at an extremely young age.
Tina P. wrote:
| Some wild things need to take a jog around the block to kill some energy. |
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Exercise is key!! Our 2 oldest boys ride their backs over a mile every morning. That has made a world of diffence.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Taffy
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[/QUOTE]Exercise is key!! Our 2 oldest boys ride their backs over a mile every morning. That has made a world of diffence. [/QUOTE]
I agree with this wholeheartedly but have to ask... What does "ride their backs" mean?
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Susan
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 20 2005 at 4:20pm | IP Logged
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We've had procrastinators and those that balked at doing what needed to be done. It is important to take some time and pray to really know if what you are asking is realistic (one child balked because of the frustration with the work and I had to find ways that he could work independently and feel successful) another simply had developed a habit of dawdling. Both needed clearly written out assignments that they could do ON THEIR OWN. I found that I need to check up on these children frequently - make sure they really did understand the assignment, etc. and be able to communicate with them. I do modify assignments based on any initiative they show (ie they are having a great time doing something really productive then I will say - hey that is really neat and it really shows what I was wanting to do here so you may substitute this for this assignment. - ie they do get a natural reward for initiative). On the other hand, if they have been dawdling or avoiding certain things, I will note it and add it to the next days assignments. At one point my dd got tired of Saturday work and seeing things mount and decided that it just didn't pay to procrastinate. When she showed signs of learning the lesson, I sat down with her and helped her pace the undone work so that she could catch up at a reasonable and steady pace (and I would streamline some things at times so that she saw the results of diligence quickly enough to reinforce continued effort as opposed to procrastination.)
We have had procrastination that was a result of very low confidence and it required patience and sitting with the child helping and encouraging until there was some confidence rebuilt. Sometimes I've grown frustrated because the child didn't understand assignments that I thought were perfectly clear, and then realized that they really did misunderstand what I wanted.
Being calm, consistent,clear in expectations, nurturing but firm seem to be what works in our house. (The girls do the same thing btw, it just has manifested more as emotional pity parties rather than outright refusal to do something so it is not the exclusive domain of either - and mom is also guilty at times and then everything for everyone falls apart).
Breaks with a timer help - ie 20 minute PE break when math is done. This is an attempt to make sure there is some physical exercise after long periods of sitting. It is good for the eyes (as well as for the spirit).
Hope this helps.
Janet
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Oct 20 2005 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
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Taffy wrote:
I agree with this wholeheartedly but have to ask... What does "ride their backs" mean? |
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That means that I'm doing things "on the fly" & need to be more careful with my typing!! It should say ride thier BIKES...!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Taffy
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| Posted: Oct 20 2005 at 10:19pm | IP Logged
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BrendaPeter wrote:
Taffy wrote:
I agree with this wholeheartedly but have to ask... What does "ride their backs" mean? |
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That means that I'm doing things "on the fly" & need to be more careful with my typing!! It should say ride thier BIKES...!
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Susan
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Susan's Soliloquy
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Tina P.
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| Posted: Oct 23 2005 at 2:21pm | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
| Breaks with a timer help - ie 20 minute PE break when math is done. This is an attempt to make sure there is some physical exercise after long periods of sitting. It is good for the eyes (as well as for the spirit). |
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Hi Janet:
I'd like to know how you *rein them in* (ie: get them back into the house seated and calm) after the 20 minute time-limit.
Thanks,
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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ALmom
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| Posted: Oct 23 2005 at 7:39pm | IP Logged
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They set the timer so they know what time they have, I don't always send them out together, they learn that they have more free time if they get all their work done and the timer is their aid to remind them that play time/break time is over. We have some far sighted children who will really tire their eyes if they do too much close work at once, but they would either avoid all work or never take a break and so wear out their eyes that work was impossible. Either way was unproductive. Reading glasses help, but it is critical for their eye development that periods of looking far are interspersed with close work. The timer allows them to chose some activity for fun after their most difficult or time consuming close-up work. I also intersperse subjects with simple requests like - Stephen, will you take the dog out please? or unload the dishwasher or vacuum. They also have some subjects that involve digging in the dirt (like history recreations of log cabins, etc.)Any children becoming unruley are quickly assigned a physical chore (vacuuming, sweeping are great ones but I might also have them do some toddler duty if I have a specific task that will keep noise down). Break time was extended with or without the timer, until they learned consequences.
The timer is their tool once they have learned the consequences. It prevents the very natural tendency of us all to get distracted unintentionally. It doesn't really work without the internal realization that it doesn't pay to procrastinate.
As long as I was owning the problem and trying to fix it, I was nagging, wheedling, having my own meltdowns, getting angry, etc. None of this helped me or them. When I fall back into that mode, things fall apart. The worst thing I can do is not appear to be very matter of fact and calm.
Now I do have lesson plans - everything is written on these plans in detail exactly as I would explain it to them in person. If they need me, I try to be available - but they have a guide to go by and during discussion one day, I try to introduce the next days independent work. The plans mean that they do not have to wait for me to settle the toddler before they begin school. Sometimes they have finished a subject or two before our family prayer, sometimes they have slept in ridiculously late and then when they get annoyed that toddler is loud and cranky - I remind them that he was very quiet between 7 and 10 AM. I may distract and entertain toddler some, but I am also discussing with dc, so sometimes they have to take turns with toddler (even if all their independent work is not done because they overslept.) Our family life goes on. Family life is the best natural consequence as long as mom isn't continuing to rescue dc (my dh reminds me of this often when I feel sorry for a dc because they are behind in schoolwork and I start doing their chores) It is one thing to help when dc has worked diligently on subject but just got stuck on a concept, its another when they are dawdling (and a real art to know the true difference - they often resemble each other) I also do help once the child has had that aha experience so that we don't remain forever in catch-up mode.
All 4 of the oldest are currently quite diligent (but it can change back at any time - especially if I start setting consistently bad example - how often do I put off meal planning and end in a panic at 4PM) This diligence did not happen until after learning that taking a long break doesn't mean they get out of their independent work - it just means they have to do it in the evening or the next day with the rest of the school work. One dd came to me with the observation that it didn't pay to put work off as you just ended up with piles of stuff and it still has to get done. Isn't this how laundry goes, too!! This is the real world! If it gets postponed too much, it becomes Saturday school for that child - ie you are just going to have to do some math today because you are 2 weeks behind - or whatever.
I don't spring this on dc. They get ample warning, all matter of fact. You know that math is going to have to get done and I'd hate for you to have to spend Saturday afternoon working math problems, but if we don't start making some progress soon, that will be the only solution. I also will run interference with the 3 yo, keeping a reasonable level of quiet, etc. during normal school hours by taking him outside if necessary. But I figure that a Saturday afternoon laughing and wrestling match on the living room floor - complete with squeels is completely appropriate Saturday afternoon fare. This makes weekday math much more desirable to dc than Saturday math - again its all a natural part of family life.
We have plenty of days when things seem off. I think the biggest thing is the tone I set. I try to be very matter of fact (not my natural tempermental mode) - I try to remember that I do not own the problem, the child does. I just consistently allow them to suffer the consequences of the actions after having given them ample instruction in what has to be done, and consequences for not doing it. We have had summer school one year because the work backed up so much - but then you miss out on other things by that choice.
I am also more available to help them during our regularly scheduled times. If they dawdle, they may end up in a marathon session with me (showing me what they did, going over corrections, discussing religion, etc.) which they generally view as taking time away from their independent work because I cannot spend 24 hours/day with official school. If they get off task, discussion occurs as soon as we can get to it - and we discuss whatever hasn't been discussed from the last discussion to the current date. They find it a lot more fun if the discussions are shorter and if we have several days stuff to do, they sometimes miss another days break due to discussion time. Sometimes I have to break a weeks worth of work into one subject per day to catch up on discussion.
What helps the most with me, is for me not to get bent out of shape - but let them suffer for their dawdling. If I hear the timer, I will tell them and tell them that it is time to come in. They do tend to dawdle some. Also, if I haven't been able to discuss with them because they have been dawdling - I don't let myself get all tied up in knots (or try not to). It is simply work that must be done at some point. I remind them of this as well as of the fact that I'm not always available later to do it and it might end up being a catch -up day later.
On the other hand, if they are diligent then school should be completed fairly early in the day to provide them with ample time to do whatever learning/play/craft they would like to do. They find that I am more naturally in favor of pulling out the messy stuff when everything else is done in ample time. This isn't an enticement or reward and isn't presented that way. It just happens. If we are done with independent work by noon or 2 o'clock, there simply is plenty of time to go to the park, or curl up on the coach with the favorite book, or pull out that super messy project that we've never had the table space for because we've had books spread out discussing work that should have easily been done weeks before. They begin to make the connections themselves. Also, one child will entice another - come on finish you independent work so we can go finish that lego castle we were working on.
Your dc are different in age - if there aren't any in the middle, I'm not sure my examples will directly relate - but I'm sure you'll find some. IE 5 yo has story hour at such a time and ds will have to wait for you if stuff isn't done before then. Look at the natural pace of your family life and at what makes the whole family run smoothly. Lots of natural consequences are right there in your own family rhythms. It doesn't come across as a stick and carrot routine that way - it really just is life.
But the timer by itself won't work - it's simply an aid.
My dc do need physical exercise and time to look away from the close work. They had to be led to see some of this - but also that it cannot be an all afternoon play party - though if they are reasonably diligent, we all have a lot more fun.
Another thing that helps - I have to have 3 hours or 3 academic subjects for school by state law. There were a few times children dawdled, did a few things but not enough to count as a school day. I simply pointed it out - then we sat down and calculated for each child when official school would be over (once the 160 days were in, assuming they worked diligently for the remainder of the year.) One child was appalled that in order to get 160 days by end of May, he'd have to work 4 Saturdays. Since we couldn't be in non-compliance with state law, we had to work those Saturdays. He has never been less than diligent since that year (admittedly, mom was near the heighth of stress). This was the year that I consciously chose not to pad the days with independent (but non-assigned reading etc.) because I felt the dc were doing what they wanted only and not applying themselves to very reasonable and minimal assigned work and were developing some bad habits. I warned them ahead of time that if religion, math, reading and one other academic subject were not done, it would not constitute a school day.
I think the way I discovered that my dc had conned me into thinking that we were overloading them with work was the time we had an activity planned - I was exhausted and said, "We'll get together with this family only if our school work is done for the day. - then my dd did 2/3 days in one day in less time than it had been taking to do 1 days worth. She had had a vision problem and we had adjusted to accomodate her, but she also learned some bad habits in the process - like avoiding all work. We had to readjust the schedule again once the vision was corrected.
Anyways the timer came after the dc discovered that dawdling didn't pay and wanted to be diligent. They then became "afraid" to take breaks because if they did they'd get all involved and spend the rest of the day out there and still not get stuff done. I suggested the timer - but they were looking for a way to remind themselves to get back to work.
One thing I will say - my dc with vision problems looked like dawdlers (slipping outside as soon as my back was turned). They were doing this because of frustration with close work - being unable to comfortably accomplish the work. It is only through the grace of God that we discovered this was the problem (my now 11 yo son actually was quite adament - he'd tell me he already knew the answer, but wouldn't do the work or he'd get angry - my dd was the escape artist and master houdini). We really had to lower expectations until eyes were mostly corrected - but once eyes were definitely corrected, then some of these same things became their own personal way of dawdling) Although they can also mean boring work, too difficult work, etc.
Prayer and continual talking with your dc are the only ways to sort all this out. Hope this helps some - I think we all ebb and flow through these kind of days - until the natural consequences get us back on track too.
Janet
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ALmom
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You'd be surprised how much a 30 minute bike ride does. They really do not come in hyper like I feared. It clears the mind and they work so much more efficiently, which builds confidence. Set the timer for a reasonable, preplanned time - the time isn't as important as developing a willingness to come in when needed.
They do dawdle about coming in at times and sometimes it slips to way later - but overall it really does help.
Sorry about my last post - I realized I didn't really answer your question.
The hard part is building that internal motivation. I haven't had dc in school so don't know much about the transition home. However the kinds of problems you were discussing seem common to all of us - of all ages and backgrounds so maybe some of the stuff in my longwinded post I wish I could delete will help.
Janet
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Willa
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Please don't apologize for your post, Janet. I'm grateful you posted it. I have trouble with that setting up of natural consequences so the details really help me "see" it
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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BrendaPeter
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Hi Tina,
I'm not Janet(whose post is great btw!) but I wanted to mention that we stick to a schedule & have now for several years. After they exercise (8-8:30), they know it's time to come in for prayers & Bible reading at 8:30. I find we all do very well with the same routine most days.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Willa
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Karen T wrote:
Do you think just giving him some time now is the best thing, and he'll eventually come around? This is a kid who has never been able to self-motivate. For example, in Scouts, which he loves, he never looks for ways to work on merit badges, etc. or learn new things. He'll do the requirements b/c an adult advisor pushes them but if not, nothing would get done.
BTW, not sure if there is any relevance or not, but he is quite gifted academically. |
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Karen,
Your son sounds quite a bit like some of my children. Since most of them have been homeschooled basically throughout, I don't know if it's really a "school" issue or if it's just personality!
I don't know whether "deschooling" would help him find his internal motivation or not. Here's my limited experience FWIW -- in our homeschool, we've regularly gone through "deschooling" periods just to break loose an unproductive situation like the one you describe. It functions a bit like a timeout; helps me to get back my own positive energy, and perhaps it helps the kid too. Anyway, it works for us as a stress-buster, and generally, the kids seem to learn a lot during the down-times as well as the structured times. I think of it as taking a water break in a marathon; you're not quitting the marathon, just pacing and refreshing yourself to go better in the long run.
I don't know whether my kids are gifted or not, but academics usually come easily to them, especially reading-related subjects. I'm just mentioning it because I understand that gifted people, especially introverted types, sometimes have easily-depleted energy reserves and a need to focus deeply on things. They don't always have much of a desire for outside "awards" of achievements and sometimes, as you describe, extrinsic validations actually seem to throw off their balance a bit and don't really help foster their motivation; no extrinsic award is ever "enough" for them.
I always found it frustrating that my kids would seem to be fine with an academic checklist and then suddenly shut down and lose steam, but recently I've been wondering if this is just the way they are and that possibly the down-times (which I usually feel a bit guilty about) are actually helping them consolidate and move forward.
My 12yo is having a down time right now too -- he is doing daily math (key to...) and reading books I give him, and football, and that's about it. The weird thing is he is reading several full-length books a week --- solid books, from the Ambleside list and Mater Amabilis -- and that is WAY more than I would have required him to read. He also wrote a long sports story last week, and last year it was SO hard to get him to write at all. I want to get him back on more structure soon, but in the meantime, I think the pause helped him grow a bit academically and in his internal motivation.
Just a theory -- thought I'd mention it.
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Willa
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ALmom
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Willa, we've seen what you describe too. I wonder if it is the child that needs to ponder - sort of like the child that doesn't say much and then suddenly says something and you had no idea they were noticing all that about everyone and everything around them.
I also have a certain personality - very bright (I think) but needed very clear structure as a guide or they seemed to just flounder and stress - but then the freedom to pace herself with guidance and natural consequences. As long as the work was not just memorize and regurgitate, she responded beautifully to a very full load of reading and writing and would totally pace herself through it. Yet giving her tons of freedom made her a nervous wreck. She has gradually branched into areas of her own interest and initiative in certain areas (music) but sticks to a plan in other areas and has only learned history through a very textbooky approach - it was as if she needed the overview to hang onto and feel secure, before branching out into a more living type history. (Funny part of this is that I absolutely love history and avoided history texts like the plague for years because they just didn't hold up to my standard - however, when we finally used one in desperation, things opened up for her). I guess the first step in teaching is learning your child - and perhaps spending some unstructured time as a temporary means to observe what likes/dislikes, what stresses and what helps, etc. might be productive. With our dd with eye problems I actually spent several months with notebook in hand and observed dd (granted we were in desperation mode, but I learned a lot in that time - and continue to learn about them everyday.)
Willa, I love your descriptions of stages of structure and non-structure. It really helps me to see the positive in our hs as it follows that same pattern many times. I have often paniced over our lack of structure years and worried that we were too regimented in our structured years. It's a wonder all of us moms/teachers don't have ulcers!
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: No self motivation
