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Martha
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Do you really need the teacher manual set? I've never done anything like this before, so does a newbie really need it? Or could I just buy the package and do without that added expense?
Frankly, it'll take a miracle to afford just the basic package and crafts right now. but my guy seems to really need somethng different from my other kids.
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Martha
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Martha
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another question...
how teacher intense is 1st grade? An hour a day? More? Less?
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Martha
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LLMom
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Martha,
I used it years ago (maybe 8) and it was very teacher intensive. (definently more than an hour) Not just a workbook to hand to a child.
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Lisa
For veteran & former homeschool moms
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Looking through the syllabus....they don't really seem to do ALL that much in a day, really. I have a brand new one, so maybe it is different than when Lisa used it? But yes, no workbooks or anything like that....
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Martha
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I'm okay with no workbooks and spending time with him.
I'm presuming I wouldn't have to do "everything" every day either?...
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Martha
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Martha
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found an old discussionof this.
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Martha
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folklaur
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okay - I have the syllabus in hand:
There is an introduction which explains out some things like the Math Gnomes, etc.
Then the actual leeson plans are divided up by week - so 36 weekly plans.
Lesson 1 covers:
Circle Time
Language Arts
Math
Social Studies
Science
Music
Crafts
If you go to the website and click on the sample link just look at pages 12-16 in the PDF file. Those are the actual pages from the lesson plan (lesson 4) for the entire week. It is a pretty good indication of a standard week IMO.
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Martha
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yeah, that's the sample link I read too.
I didn't think that looked like all that much for an entire week, that's why I was kind of scratching my head over the mom intensive comments...
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Martha
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Sarah M
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I'm going to use OM grade 1 this year, and have studied the syllabus pretty intently. I doubt "school" will take more than an hour a day. There is really not that much to it, and they don't assign certain activities to certain days, so you can do a day or two of "more", and a day or two of "less", if that makes any sense. I anticipate this school year to be very relaxed, using Oak Meadow. What is in the lesson plan does involve parent involvement, since there are no workbooks, etc, but there is not a bunch of prep needed or hours upon hours of parent labor.
Martha- you could do the syllabus w/o the Teacher Manual set, but if you are not already familiar with wet-on-wet watercolor painting, knitting, form drawing, and other such Waldorf-inspired practices, you may want the Home Teacher's Process Manual. I got both Teacher manuals for $12 ppd on this yahoo group.
Hope that helps!
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Martha
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| Posted: Jan 29 2010 at 5:32pm | IP Logged
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bump
fishing for added experences and opinions. 
Someone was kind enough to give a fellow hs-er (well me actually, but I've already given it away to someone more in need than myself) the 3rd grade syllabus.
This was the first time I'd actually been able to see it in person and get a genuine feel for it in my hands.
I must admit I was only a bit curious at first when I saw the book in the box, but as I looked through it and pictured my days and my youngest son, I began to totally see this working for an older him. I was rather astonished and confused and surprised by this bc I had given up any notion of doing it.
At first it looks very light and fluffy and ... well not my thing. But when you look at it from start to finish, it really is more than it first appears. I think this especially true for the art and science.
So here I am again wondering if this would be great for my youngest boy, pending the perpetual miracle of funds appearing to permit it to happen in our home. 
Is my assessment of the 3rd grade syllabus likely to hold true for the k or 1st grade levels too?
Where can I fin dthese in new condition and a very used price? Is that possible? Is it worth the cost of the craft pkg?
I'm thinking happy positive thoughts here.. dh will get a decent job soon and I will celebrate by getting to see my boy's eyes shine when the man in brown deliver a box of OM just for him.
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Martha
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Sarah M
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Martha, I really loved OM when we used it. We don't use it anymore, but that has more to do with *me*. I just don't like to follow someone else's plan-- no matter how lovely it is. It's the inner rebel in me, I suppose  .
We used OM Grade 1 and I thought it was very comprehensive-- not fluffy at all. It approached everything gently, though. If I was every to consider using an all-in-one curriculum again, OM would be where I'd land. It's just a beautiful curriculum! I'm tempted by it every year.
My very favorite resources were the Teacher's Manuals-- in fact, I kept those even after I sold the grade 1 syllabus. They are definite helps.
If you watch eBay carefully, you may run across a used copy (the scarcity of OM used speaks well to its value, I think-- people want to hold on to it because it's that good!). I'm not sure where else to look besides the normal used homeschool curriculum spots. It's just tricky to find used.
I did not buy the craft set because I already had paints, crayons and paper, and I was able to buy soprano recorders new for super-cheap on eBay.
One more thing- OM took an hour or less per day for us to do (and that's EVERYTHING-- math included). I didn't find it cumbersome or time consuming at all.
Hope that helps some, Martha!
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CrunchyMom
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I looked at Oak Meadow a good bit a couple of years ago when I was thinking about Preschool and Kindergarten. On the outside it looked so "pretty" and appealing. And yet, even though it doesn't purport to be "pure" by Waldorf standards, there are some aspects of it that concerned me.
For instance, the director, when speaking of his experience as a Waldorf teacher, speaks so enthusiastically of Steiner and his philosophies:
Quote:
The Garden City Waldorf School--as with all Waldorf schools--followed the educational approach developed by Rudolf Steiner, a remarkable Austrian artist/philosopher/scientist who had a unique insight into the natural world and the nature of human beings. In addition to education, Steiner also developed initiatives in agriculture, medicine, dance, art, architecture, and religion that are still thriving today.
Inspiring and effective, the Waldorf approach to education is the fastest-growing educational movement in the world today. Nevertheless, it incorporates specific principles and practices of Steiner's into a unique form, and as with all forms (educational or otherwise), the tendency is for the followers of that approach to become enamored by the form and lose sight of the life that created and ensouls the form. This is especially true when the form was developed by someone as extraordinary as Rudolf Steiner |
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While some insist that Waldorf techniques can be separated from its Anthroposophical roots, the creator of this program seems to think it of vital importance to maintain these spiritual roots. I worry about the need to sift through the curriculum with a fine tooth comb in order to sift out the influences of dangerous and unorthodox New Age spirituality.
Perhaps I'm simply being critical since I have since decided against the curriculum and have not actually used it myself, but one thing that concerns me is that often the most subtly dangerous things come in the most attractive packages.This quote from the Vatican document, Jesus Christ Bearer of Water and Life, speaks of the dangers of such philosophies, especially of the dangers which are difficult to discern.
Jesus Christ Bearer of the Water of Life wrote:
| On the one hand, it is clear that many New Age practices seem to those involved in them not to raise doctrinal questions; but, at the same time, it is undeniable that these practices themselves communicate, even if only indirectly, a mentality which can influence thinking and inspire a very particular vision of reality. Certainly New Age creates its own atmosphere, and it can be hard to distinguish between things which are innocuous and those which really need to be questioned. However, it is well to be aware that the doctrine of the Christ spread in New Age circles is inspired by the theosophical teachings of Helena Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner's anthroposophy and Alice Bailey's “Arcane School”. Their contemporary followers are not only promoting their ideas now, but also working with New Agers to develop a completely new understanding of reality, a doctrine known by some observers as “New Age truth” |
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Martha
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I agree pride can lead one to think they cannot be misled or detracted. This is something all parents, especially home schoolong catholic parents, must vigilant in prayer over avoiding and detecting.
OM is probably the lightest of Waldorf methods, many would suggest it is hardly Waldorf at all even. As someone from a family of wiccans, atheist, agnostic, and a few other thoughts, I am usually very harsh in what I will permit in my home. In fact, more than one catholic has accused me of being too Catholic (Never know what to think of that! not sure it's even possible, but I digress. )
That said, I looked over every page of that 3rd grade syllabus and saw nothing there to contradict or lead astray. I imagine circle time will be replaced with prayer time, I didn't like the verse stuff. None of the stories or poems were anything to worry about or even anything that would not be used anyways in my home. Fairy tales and peter pan are rather common. In fact, I use Grimms, which OM no longer does bc they couldn't sell it over 50% of the time bc parents said it was too dark. The math stories explaining place value are actually nearly identical to MUS's explaination, which I see no one claiming to lead dc from the faith. The science was not even remotely new agey. Just bare facts and common experiements.
The art seems basic and not new agey, although it does encourage thought and expression, something lacking in many art programs in my completely untalented opinion. Colors and form does have emotion and inspiration attached to it (It's one of the reasons religious art was/is used and perpetuated by the Church.) and it's so obvious that I can't imagine not discussing it.
I have not read the heart or process books. If they are full of "steiner worship" then that would not be used by me.
I have not seen the music books, but if they are full of earth worship or spirituality, then they will be quickly tossed for a book that does not have that. Anyone care to tell me? I think it's just the standard twinkle twinkle little star type stuff isn't it?
So that's what I looked at for 3rd grade. I see nothing there that is contrary to the faith. In fact, I see much that could just as easily be titled montessori or CM.
This conversation has been here before. It hurt a lot of feelings. I was apart of it to a small degree. I hope a lesser degree of hurting on my part. In fact, I was totally against steiner and still am. For reasons of complete lack of faith in my ability to be the best filter I had never looked at OM much further. I still don't have that faith in myself. However, I have looked at that 3rd grade syllabus extensively and, OM might be insulted by my opinion, I see very little of Stiener in their 3rd grade product. I intend this as a compliment to them.
If there is a Catholic OM product out there, I'd be very interested in it.
If there is something of OM in particuliar that I should avoid, I am open to that and would appreciate knowing it in advance. Other than the circle time cerse, there is some vague explaination to the teacher (never the student) in the syllabus about the "Divinty within the child" and "unfoldment" of the child. Personally, I will translate that into "Christ within" and "spiritual development". Having never read Stiener, that was my first presumption of the terms.
This is long and rambling as I am thinking aloud here in response to your genuine christian concern, Lindsey. A concern I appreciate and have shared.
I don't think the OM package is all that pretty a package. In fact, when compared to the glitz and heft of most programs, OM can seem as I originally thought it to be rather fluffy and unsubstantial.
After looking at it in person though, what I see is what I envy in Laura and Theresa's homes - it looks like the unschooling they do so naturally. In a format easier for me to use than Serendipity, which is lovely, but I never seem able to get it all together to make it happen! 
So here I am.
With a kid who I can tell is out of sync with all my other dc.
With a desire to do something like this with him, but not having the time to devote to creating it all on my own.
With no funds to make it happen, but daydreaming here about what it might look for us later.
With faint worry that maybe I'm letting satan in the door with the UPS guy in the guise of a box of OM stuff. I really don't think so after looking at the 3rd grade syllabus and pouring over the website, but, like I wrote already, I don't harbor any illusions that I have the wisdom to always know either. It's the same faint worry I have about using Apologia or Sonlight. I go into it with eyes wide open for finding faults and ready to change course or delete as neccessary.
So for now, I will continue to pray over the many things I pray over on any given day and if OM is what we end up using, then I will continue to pray even then that the education I offer all my children be one that give knowledge of God and leads them closer Him.
Praying that the same holds true in the homes of my fellow home schoolers. 
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Some vendors of Waldorf supplies/curriculum do give money back to support the spread of Rudolph Steiner's ideas.
I don't know if Oak Meadow does this or not, and if you are buying used material it would not be so much an issue. But that is one thing that worries me- that by buying material from certain companies I could be unknowingly supporting the New Age movement
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Martha
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don't know about that.
I just did a search of the entire oak meadow site via advanced google and could not find anything that mentioned any financial support/donation/allotment to any stiener organization.
anyone have info saying otherwise?
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CrunchyMom
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I have no doubt you are praying, Martha, in discerning what is best for your family! I am sure you will be weighing all these aspects carefully in your choice.
I just sort of feel that given the intensity of past discussions, people have been afraid to voice their negative experiences with Oak Meadow or other Waldorf curricula.
There are extensive threads in the archives where people objectively hash out and offer clear direction in weeding out potential problems with Sonlight or Apologia, but this doesn't seem to be the case with Oak Meadow. Perhaps this is in part because people are nervous to bring it up, or perhaps this is because the issues are more subtle? Both?
Martha wrote:
| Having never read Stiener, that was my first presumption of the terms. |
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This is what personally "scares" me away from using a curriculum like this. My assumptions, even the flippant, innocent ones. (Definitely speaking of my own in the past, not that anyone else is flippant.)
It is very likely that you will act on your first assumption of what these terms mean and any sort of spirituality introduced will be Catholic since you would naturally present things this way.
However, the New Age movement and Steiner specifically use a lot of Christian terms, but have very different meanings for them.To me, this is a confusing matter. The more I read about it, the cloudier it gets!
I can certainly see your desire to reach this particular child, and I hope it was clear that I am not criticizing you for considering this curriculum. I pray you will find what is best for him and your family.
I do think it would probably be helpful to those who are using this curriculum or considering it to see it scrutinized a bit more in the same way that other non-Catholic curricula have been, again, such as Sonlight.
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Martha
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I just sort of feel that given the intensity of past discussions, people have been afraid to voice their negative experiences with Oak Meadow or other Waldorf curricula.
Perhaps this is in part because people are nervous to bring it up, or perhaps this is because the issues are more subtle? Both? |
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Well one could say the same of CHC and Seton. Seems many in Catholic circles are quick to bash Seton, but shy away from saying anything negative about CHC.
I think it boils down to it being easier to dissect something when you don't have a personal relationship with it (or those who use it). Elizabeth Foss uses many Waldorf concepts and this is her board, so I can see how it's a fine line between being critical of Waldorf and being critical of her.
Plus, when we discuss these things, I think we all get a bit sensitive. This home schooling thing is not just academic - we're talking about our babies' souls here too. You can't get much more personal to a mom than that. To suggest, however kindly intended, that we might be contaminating their souls in our curriculum choices is a hard thing for a mother to contemplate! It strikes at the heart of what we do and why we do it.
But I also think it's a worthy conversation to have and one that's nearly impossible to have IRL. (Not many here to discuss it with!) I think it a sensitive one to have. I think some are too fearful of hurt (giving or receiving) to engage in it. I think they are likely the ones that would also give the most beneficial insights to the conversation.
Martha wrote:
| Having never read Stiener, that was my first presumption of the terms. |
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Quote:
| It is very likely that you will act on your first assumption of what these terms mean and any sort of spirituality introduced will be Catholic since you would naturally present things this way. |
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That is my sincere hope!
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| However, the New Age movement and Steiner specifically use a lot of Christian terms, but have very different meanings for them.To me, this is a confusing matter. The more I read about it, the cloudier it gets! |
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I presume that to be true having read very little of Stiener other than brief cursory research.
However, one can say that to be the case in general with the Catholic faith. There are many that say this is why we shouldn't have x-mas trees and mistletoe or hunt eggs at Easter. All these things orignially had very differnt meanings other than what we give them as Christians. My wiccan sister says Catholics stole from pagans and what we believe is thus a lie bc it isn't what it was intended to be orignially. Needless to say, I disagree with her. 
Quote:
| I can certainly see your desire to reach this particular child, and I hope it was clear that I am not criticizing you for considering this curriculum. |
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I didn't think that at all. I almost didn't resurrect this thread bc I remembered the past *issues* of the topic. I have a bit of thick skin though (or thick head pending perspective  ) and truely wanted genuine opinions from my fellow Catholics. I took your concern to be just that - genuine kindly giving a heads-up concern.
Quote:
| I do think it would probably be helpful to those who are using this curriculum or considering it to see it scrutinized a bit more in the same way that other non-Catholic curricula have been, again, such as Sonlight. |
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Me too! And that's exactly what I did when I took that syllabus in my hands. I literally went over every single page and took notes while I did it of anything that gave me pause or that I had questions over. This year was the first time I've ever used Sonlight too. And I'm doing the same. Very critical of every aspect of it.
And I will say that is one of the things to consider when one uses any non-catholic product. There's a certain level of freedom in just using Catholic specific materials. Not having to question this or that meaning or inference or whatever IS a big bonus.
Now, if I could just find a Catholic OM style with Seton writing and lit analysis, and sonlight quantity of whole books, and chronological history on a 3 or 4 yr cycle a la Story of the World, including earthworms and other materials for science projects and oil pastels and charcoal pencils and such for art for less than a grand and be enough for all the kids and give reasonable and flexible weekly breakdown for each kid/subject all in one big box - well I'll buy that asap! 
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Martha
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I would like to think this conversation, and those like it, are helpful in finding the good to hold fast to in our educational choices.
And hope that any reading take no offense, but rather take heart that we are all discerning for the same goal, the education of our most beloveds' souls, minds, and hearts, and thus, be willing to share their experiences too.
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You've made some excellent points Martha, and I've loved reading the discussion between you and Lindsay. I did just want to back up a second and address..
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| This conversation has been here before. It hurt a lot of feelings. |
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It's very hard to separate out a warning to be careful from others hearing it as a condemnation of their prudential decisions. It doesn't have to be both. And often it's not meant to be. Many people read these boards and we don't know who many of them are. If there are things to be cautious about with a topic it is not a bad thing to remind everyone of this fact even if the person who brought it up is someone others know would be careful with discernment.
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Sarah M
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Martha wrote:
| If there is a Catholic OM product out there, I'd be very interested in it. |
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Nissa Gadbois has mentioned that she's writing a Catholic waldorf curriculum. So maybe, Martha, in the near future...? Not sure where she is on it- she sort of mentioned it in passing on a Catholic waldorf yahoo group. I'm betting it will be lovely, though.
I think caveats that go hand-in-hand with talking about waldorf are helpful. Catholics using any kind of waldorfy material should definitely go in with eyes wide open. I have not had any trouble integrating certain waldorf concepts (namely- beauty, art, rhythm) into our learning, but I totally understand why others would be hesitant to ever try.
I haven't seen all of OM, but I can speak for grade 1-- I didn't come across anything, outright or subtle, that I had to question, aside from the morning verse which I easily discarded and replaced with prayer.
Hope that's helpful as you discern!
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Topic: Oak meadow 1st ?
