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amethyst
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Has anyone changed from years of structured homeschool learning to unschooling when their kids were teenagers?
If so, how did you do this?
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SallyT
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We've gone somewhat in the opposite direction, although there are still definitely unschooling elements to my high-schooler's education. We've taken care of some courses through co-op classes, but for others I have let her more or less let her direct herself: watching Teaching Company lectures as part of history, independent reading, independent projects. She's also been designing a biology course which will use some "traditional, textbook" aspects of biology -- a textbook for a spine, mainly -- with her current interest in midwifery and fetal development (we'll be doing serious pro-life biology!). She's actually been working on elements of this for over a year, but at the end of next year I hope to be able to give her credit for having covered biology.
The good thing about high school is that many kids are able and more than willing -- even excited -- to have a greater hand in directing their studies, even if you haven't been doing that all along. You can look at what's required, and then say, well, how are you going to accomplish this? You can also easily unschool many electives, such as Home Ec (just have the child log every time he/she cooks dinner, or sews or knits something, or does something budget-related, and maybe read a related book -- CHC's High School of Your Dreams has a good list), or art, or music.
Depending on your child's inclinations and visions for the future, there will probably always be some things that need to be done in a "schoolish" way, but there are also lots of possibilities for learning outside the box in the more independent high-school years.
Speaking of high-schoolers, mine needs to use the computer to do her English exam . . . but I hope there will be more conversation on this topic, because we're always striving to find a comfortable balance.
Sally
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folklaur
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My dd18 was pretty much unschooled for high school.
I have to be honest, although I love the ideas/ideals of unschooling, we are going to go with a more schooly structure for the younger ones. Not oodles more, but more than what we did with dd18.
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Willa
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I have a hard time answering the question. I let up on the reins a lot with the older children. Then they take over the reins for themselves more and more.
So unschooling in one sense -- they do it themselves. I guide, facilitate, encourage, help them when they ask for it, etc. But it can look quite structured. Oldest ds was studying Greek and Latin and physics. Present dd in senior year is reading widely, working on German and Latin, studying several musical instruments and plugging through math and science in order to meet college goals.
I guess in effect that's something like what Sally said. They are old enough to see what they want and figure out, with help, the strategies they need to get there. "Apprenticing for adulthood" I guess you could say.
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amethyst
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cactus mouse wrote:
My dd18 was pretty much unschooled for high school.
I have to be honest, although I love the ideas/ideals of unschooling, we are going to go with a more schooly structure for the younger ones. Not oodles more, but more than what we did with dd18.
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Why is that Laura? What do you now see as the negative results from unschooling your 18yodd?
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amethyst
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Willa wrote:
plugging through math and science in order to meet college goals.
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Now this is the big difference I see with the US and Australia - we just don't have that 'goal' of college (University) that you do. It's there for those who want it, but it's not something that we have to focus on during high school.
Goals - hmm...my 14yodd has no desire to attend university, her dream is to be a nun or a mother of 12. Otoh, she knows that she must have something going on in her life until either of those dreams eventuate so she is going to look into being a teacher's aide (for kindergarten). She would probably enjoy doing some Montessori training.
Her response to a woman who asked her what her career/educational goals were was this "I believe my future lies outside the realm of academic achievement". And she really means this sincerely - it's not some smart comment. If you know my daughter you would know that she is deeply in love with Our Lord and does not joke about such things.
You see, I wonder at forcing all this textbook learning at her when it has completely deadened her 'love to learn' - both my teens are miserable with their education now and the life that used to bring so much joy to our learning has been extinguished.
My 15 yods is a high functioning Aspergers and has struggled with many forms of learning but sees everything in his mind's eye as diagrams and maps, calculations - he hates to write, he hates to read, but he can orally narrate ANYTHING with gusto (as long as he isn't actually asked to narrate
 )and his maths is excellent. But he is a hands guy, a creator with his mind and fingers. Using the regular book method of learning is killing him.
So I asked them both what they would follow an interest in of left to their own devices - they were stunned I asked. Then both answered "Can you give me some ideas??" and for two days now they have been scratching their heads...I see this as evidence of how work-booky education has robbed them of the joy of personal discovery and examination. They look to *me* to tell them what to read, how much to read, how many pages to fill in, what to watch...do you know what I mean?
We have read many, many living books over the years, but when I stopped the relaxed CM style of learning (they were about 8 and 9) and employed workbooks/texts because I was terrified they would be uneducated in high school, the lights began to dim in their eyes and have never revived.
I want to offer them next term as a debrief from structure and being told what to do. But I admit this scares me.
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amethyst
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SallyT wrote:
CHC's High School of Your Dreams has a good list)
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I have looked at this a few times...the idea of it interests me, but I wonder if it is workable for Australians? It's a huge expense for just a 'look see'. They don't have samples online do they?
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Willa wrote:
"Apprenticing for adulthood" I guess you could say.
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We are striving for this.
Our *formal work* increases as the children get older. We are very informal in the early years so by the time our oldest was in high school, it looked pretty formal to us! She chose to use a textbook series for religion, took a latin class with a hsing group, follows a dvd program for maths. This summer she will take a class at the local college. Yet much of what she is doing doesn't look schoolish. Her lit is at her own pace and choosing, her science is a mix of dvds, living books, and reports. The hope for us is that she is able to direct herself toward her goals as she sees God calling her. Interestingly, in some areas she is totally gung ho and self-directed. Other areas she needs a lot of supervision, reassurance, and guidance. Sometimes it looks like she is taking the reins from us, other times she is trying to give them back! It is tough growing up:).
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Jenny, we were cross-posting  . I had always imagined that my dd would be eager to be self-directed. But as I mentioned above, this was only partially true. She was overwhelmed to consider too much all at once or to make each subject self-directed. For example, my dd doesn't like math and is quick to avoid it. So this needs to be structured for her (with her dad) because she needs a certain amount of math to get into college (her goal, not ours.) We designed a very interesting science class for her last year, but in the end she decided that she would sacrifice "interesting" for "getting it done quickly to make time for literature." So we dropped some of the science plans, added living books from MacBeth's list, and called it a day. Since literature and writing are her big joys, this is where she has taken the most initiative.
Perhaps you can ask your dd to choose one subject that she feels would translate well into meeting her future goals that she would like to consider doing in an innovative way.
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amethyst
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Angie Mc wrote:
| She was overwhelmed to consider too much all at once or to make each subject self-directed. |
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I hadn't considered that, Angie...thank you for bringing it to my attention!
My obvious willingness to hand over the reins to my teens (I told them this would be for a term to see how it went, a term here being 10 weeks) must have scared the pants off them. 
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amethyst wrote:
Why is that Laura? What do you now see as the negative results from unschooling your 18yodd? |
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I have thought and thought about how to reply to this.
Let me just start by saying these are my thoughts, in relation to my family. If I at any time sound like I am making generalizations, it is really just in relation to my own personal thoughts and experiences. Which will be different for everyone.
I think to start I need to say what I am calling unschooling - as there are so many definitions. So, let's go with this one, from the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling :
"Unschooling contrasts with other forms of home education in that the student's education is not directed by a teacher and curriculum. Although unschooling students may choose to make use of teachers or curricula, they are ultimately in control of their own education.[2] Students choose how, when, why, and what they pursue. Parents who unschool their children act as "facilitators," providing a wide range of resources, helping their children access, navigate, and make sense of the world, and aiding them in making and implementing goals and plans for both the distant and immediate future. Unschooling expands from children's natural curiosity as an extension of their interests, concerns, needs, goals, and plans."
Unschooling can be like this, but it can also be dramatically different - with parents who almost seem like they have given up the role, to people who call themselves unschoolers but who really don't fit into the above definition as they really structure a lot more of their child's curriculum. I am just using the definition from wiki as it seems pretty spot on to the "ideal" of unschooling.
When we looked in homeschooling, I tried to learn what I could about the different ways to do it. We learned about unschooling, and thought it sounded like a wonderful idea. I mean, what have I learned best during my life? Those things that most interested me. It made sense.
I, personally, went to a regular old Catholic elementary school. I used textbooks. I was good at school - actually really good - but I hated it. I was bored. (Looking back I can say I was also lazy. Because it was easy, I was lazy. But that was MY issue - and still is. I struggle with "lazy" a lot.)
So anyway, I went to a traditional school. But, I also raised tadpoles, and grew gardens with my parents, read voraciously, climbed trees, played a LOT, volunteered as a day camp counselor from age 11-16, and took computer classes over the summer. I did all this "individualized learning" or interest led activities in addition to going to school.
So often, Unschoolers seem to make all that I just named "school." They do those things, those activities, and consider them the necessary learning.
I think it really has more to do with the family and child, and how much the idea of "learning" is appreciated in the household. For instance, my Daddy did crossword puzzles constantly - and even now no one in my house wants to play Boggle with me because I will scromp them :) - and that all has to do with my Dad playing the game with me and building my vocabulary. Learning was valued for its own sake. But "school" was important too. The learning that went on in the home enhanced the learning that went on in school and vice-versa. They were not exclusive to each other.
Looking back - after seeing how I was raised, and then looking back at how unschooly we were with dd18 - I think that the balance of "real school" and interest-led is better.
Maybe Unschooling is so attractive now because families are just SO busy that there isn't time to have a balance like I had. Happily, we homeschool, so I think in our family we will be able to.
I am NOT advocating text-books. I DO NOT like textbooks. Real, Living books are the ones that teach. (which is why I like Sonlight.) But, although I will take into account my child's interest (for instance ds9 really wants to do American History, so we will be doing that) I will follow a curriculum, and I will expect certain things to be done.
As I said, I did learn best those things that interested me....but I also learned about things that didn't. And...if I hadn't been exposed to things I THOUGHT I had no interest in, I would have missed out too.
"They" say that all kids do is cram for a test, and then promptly forget the information. Well, that is true - to a point. I sure don't remember dates of historical events - but I don't remember dates of historical events that I want to remember either. Of course much of the test taking in school is pointless - they don't really have another way to do it, the system itself is pretty messed up. ( Just as I don't advocate textbooks, I am NOT a fan of tests - especially at the younger levels. I mean, I can tell from talking with my kids if they know the material. )
I have never WANTED to learn Math. I HATE Math. Not a little, but a lot, and if I had been unschooled, beyond basic Math I would have never touched another math-related thing if I could avoid it. But I had to do it....and what I learned I still know how to do. I didn't "promptly forget it." I can still help my dd with Algebra, or Statistics - although if DH is home I will gladly hand it off.
All this to say...I think a balance is better. For littles? Up until like 3rd grade? Let 'em play, let them read, let them create, explore. etc. But after 3rd or so...I want - for our family - for there to be more structure. Not "Seton-like" structure, not for us, and not Textbooks. But something like Sonlight? With Living Books and historical fiction and stories that make history or science come alive and be real to them? Using those same living books to help make language arts, grammar, and writing more tangible? Yep. I want that for them. And I want to do it in an orderly fashion. So I will rely on a curriculum - in my case Sonlight.
With our oldest, we were much more unschooly. And, although she is doing what she had strived for - she has gotten into her college of choice, she scores well on "standardized" tests - I have to wonder how much easier it would have been for her to acheive those things, and how much more confident she would feel, if we hadn't been so unschooly. (And I dread the phone calls I am sure I am going to receive when she has to write her first "real" research paper....).
So anyway. Those are my thoughts. Wow, did I ramble, huh?
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amethyst
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Laura, *thank you* for taking the time to think that through and share with me...I really appreciate your viewpoint, and there is some meat in there for me to chew over.
I fear my biggest enemy will always be 'me' - knowing what I want in their education, but being unsure of how to, or not ready to, bring about those changes. The years pass so quickly now (my eldest is 31 and I can still remember the sweet smell of his newly born self as though it were yesterday)and with these teenagers being the babies of my family I don't want to be lazy in leaving things as they are because it's easier for me, but I want to bring LIFE into their learning again before it's too late.
What we've been doing the last few years has not worked...so a change is needed. Perhaps I should be looking for 'less structured' rather that 'unschooled'- time out to breath and discover where they can bloom again.
I think my 15yo son has given up learning...he marks time, ticks the boxes, is compliant, but there is no heart there. No love to learn. He is a lovely and obedient young man who is his father's best friend (and vice-versa) but he could spend the next 10 years glued to an X-box screen and never flinch, never think that he could have more.
I'm concerned that *my* need for the security of a text book robbed him of a good education - I hope I'm not rebounding to unschool in order to fix the problems.
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Willa
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amethyst wrote:
I'm concerned that *my* need for the security of a text book robbed him of a good education - I hope I'm not rebounding to unschool in order to fix the problems. |
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I think that is a good point. I too try to make sure I am not simply doing what seems convenient to me. Unschooling helps me think beyond the check-off boxes.
Maybe you could try experimenting a bit during the summer -- watch what he does during his time off (non-X-box time, I suppose). My family has "deschooled" in the past for limited periods of time -- simply put academics on the back-burner and seeing what comes out of it. It's not the same as making a final commitment to unschooling, but it helps with burnout and it can also help in seeing what natural learning is taking place -- what the child is attracted to, what his particular gifts are, how he thinks etc.
I loved your post, Laura. I could relate to much of what you said, particularly your home background. That was my experience too -- I learned so much informally but you see, it was along WITH formal learning, not instead of it. My personal experience, not to generalize for others who do things differently, is that putting the informal stuff squarely in the center distorts it. I'd rather have a loose structure for the basic academics and then spend the rest of the time facilitating, strewing, discussing, and assigning things in an open-ended, non-production-oriented way.
This and seasonal variations (more academics in the fall and winter, more unschooly things in the spring and summer) seem to work for us, but no doubt it would be diffferent for different families.
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SallyT
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I think what people are saying about a mix of informal, child-directed learning AND formal, sitdown work (and work you'd only do if someone was making you) really speaks to the "crisis" of the teenage years: wanting, needing, and being able to handle a greater measure of independence, yet still not having attained the level of maturity necessary to strike out on their own.
It just seems to me that, with a given child, there are going to be things you don't have to plan for them to do, because they're just going to do them and teach themselves how to do them better. Art and home-ecky stuff would fall under that category for my daughter. Voila, two electives taken care of. Last year she did a ton of theatre, appearing in straight plays, a musical, and a ballet, and then writing, revising, and helping to direct her own play through our community children's theatre. She was in the eighth grade, but I went ahead and gave her high-school credit for that, as an elective -- and I could probably give her credit at some point for "creative writing," because she does that all the time, too.
Math is another story. For this we have a tutor, and she does an hour a day -- though we try to find materials that work for her, instead of trying to make HER fit the textbook.
She has also benefited greatly from co-op classes -- she would not have persevered in first-year Latin had she not had a parish priest overseeing her work. She would let herself down, she would let me down -- but Father? No way. Now she's at the point where hopefully, with the use of a study guide, she can get through next year on her own. What the class taught her was that she could do Latin, and that she likes it, and now she wants to do four years of it. I told her that translating a chapter of the Latin version of Harry Potter would go a long way towards counting as a semester of Latin . . . so I guess that's kind of unschoolish!
My husband is a college professor, and while it's possible that our children will choose other routes than traditional college, I don't want the college door to be closed to them because of what they didn't do in high school, and I don't want them to flounder when and if they get there. I hear enough stories about unprepared students, and I see enough poor papers written by college students, to have some idea how I don't want my kids to perform, any more than they can help it. To me, learning to write a 5-paragraph essay and a research paper is therefore a non-negotiable. We worked on that in my co-op English class this year -- at this moment my students, including this daughter, are all immersed in doing a take-home final for which they have to write three 5-paragraph essays, and they are all thoroughly hating my guts. They have also complained that even their college-student siblings don't write as much as I have made them write (my answer: "Wimps!"). Reading actively and critically is also a non-negotiable, though unlike paper-writing, which you just have to DO (though HOW you do it can be up for grabs), you can learn to read actively and critically via just about any challenging living book.
I'm also a non-fan of textbooks, though my daughter used the first book in the Didache series for religion this year (in co-op) and loved it and wants the next one, so I guess we'll go that route. It took me years to figure out that she actually likes answering the questions at the end of the chapter and copes better with information that way. CM-style narration was a dud with her! My own preference would be to pull together a reading list and have her go through it, but she likes the fact that a textbook keeps her on track, and she always knows what to do next.
We're also unschoolish in that I don't have a set "school day" (except for co-op day) in which my daughter gets work done. She likes to work in the afternoon and evening, so I let her do that. As long as she gets it done, I don't care when it gets done.
This is my first high-schooler, so I don't have the benefit of hindsight, and it's impossible to know what I'll be glad we did and what I'll regret. I do enjoy the give-and-take of working with her at this level, talking through what we're going to do and then trusting her to do it (and trying to help her make that happen when it looks as though she needs some parameters set for her). My goals, I guess, are that she find learning exciting and challenging without being deadly or overwhelming; that she do a mix of formal academic work and experiential learning, even within a single subject; that she learn to enjoy ideas and talking about them, so that the life of the mind seems a natural and essential part of herself; that she discover that things she might have considered boring are actually interesting; and that she be prepared to meet further academic or work challenges with some essential skills, like being able to write in a formal and organized fashion. And I guess the overall challenge is to help her do these things while respecting who she is and working with that -- her artiness and free-spiritedness -- instead of trying to override those things about her with a predetermined course of study that I have chosen and invested myself in.
Anyway, this is turning out to be my favorite homeschooling age. Good conversation!
Sally
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lapazfarm
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Coming in late to this conversation,and since I technically do not have a highschooler, I hesitate to post. But...my ds is turning 13 soon (so he's a teenager), he has been to public school, has done structured homeschooling, and he will be unschooling from here on out, so perhaps I have something to add.
IMHO going from structured schooling straight into unschooling may be a bit of a shock for a teenager.
My ds and I have been inching ever so slowly towards unschooling for quite a while, so he has had time to learn certain habits that will serve him well as an unschooler. He has gotten used to owning his own schedule, managing his own time, and following his own interests without relying on me to tell him what to do or when to do it. He has figured out that he really enjoys learning and he really doesn't require anyone telling him to do it. I don't have to push him, I just stand back and watch it happen, and try to keep up!
He has also learned that his old Mom has some pretty good ideas from time to time herself and he listens to them objectively. He doesn't feel like I am imposing on him if I say "you should really read this book," or try this method, or etc. He looks on it like exactly what it is--an enthusiastic endorsement from someone who knows. There is a certain trust there, which goes both ways.
I am not sure that if we had not approached this gradually it would be working nearly so well.
Now, I'm not saying I don't think you can do it in a more abrupt way. But I am saying that I think these skills, habits, whatever they are will serve him well, and will contribute to the success of our unschooling.
For us, they developed slowly. For others, perhaps they could happen in a more immediate fashion?
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amethyst
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lapazfarm wrote:
| I am not sure that if we had not approached this gradually it would be working nearly so well. |
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This is resonating with me Theresa - you have just mentioned something that has been on my mind the last day or so. I was thinking how most kids need a time of deschooling when they are brought home from the public education system, and perhaps my son would be better served if I gave him that time of 'debriefing' from the texts? A good prayer point! Thank you.
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Leonie
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Jenny, I know we have shared some articles by Cafi Cohen, on self directed learning and teens.
I guess that is our form of unschooling - self direction with input from mum. It worked when they were little, works for our 12 year old, works for our teens worked for our older ones...Sometimes we are more radical unschoolers and sometimes we go back to this self directed negotiated unschooly-ness...
University is important to us, so we expect all our sons to study at university - it is just part of dh and I and of our family culture. So, I have three university graduates, and one studying full time at university, and one doing one course externally through Open University.
We meet and talk about goals and have tos and want tos, every three months or so. From there, we just manage the day to day stuff - we don't look very schooly but the important things for each season get done.
Alexander is 16, he is studying Italian through university. He has a personal goal to finish the Kumon maths programme this year and to continue to work on Latin and sometimes Greek. I ask him to read through a religion book ( one in the Didache series) and to do Saxon Physics occasionally. He does his music on his own, works part time, does volunteer work, is involved in our parish, reads a lot. So, he continues with his goals and does the religion and Physics cos I ask.
Thomas is 15. He does maths and Latin and occasional religion reading and Chemistry reading or experiments. These are things I set for him, when we talked about goals for this year. He wanted to study French so we set up French classes with other homeschoolers. Alexander and my youngest son attends these, too. On his own, Thomas reads and reads, plays piano,is writing a novel, works part time, goes to all our homeschool activities with his other brothers, helps out at church and youth group.
I wrote about our day yesterday on our blog, to give a picture of how this works out day to day..Pretty relaxed day for teens, I know, don't throw stones!  
__________________
Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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folklaur
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| Posted: May 27 2008 at 10:00pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
He has also learned that his old Mom has some pretty good ideas from time to time herself |
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Man, Theresa, if I could come up with the units/studies that you do, I would be a LOT more confident in my ability to have a balanced (un)school!
*I* want to go to school at your house!!
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: May 27 2008 at 11:14pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
lapazfarm wrote:
He has also learned that his old Mom has some pretty good ideas from time to time herself |
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Man, Theresa, if I could come up with the units/studies that you do, I would be a LOT more confident in my ability to have a balanced (un)school!
*I* want to go to school at your house!! |
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LOL! Well, bless you for saying so, Laura. But I cannot take the credit. Most of what we've done has been Superboy's ideas. I just kind of flesh them out for him. And that is why I have such confidence this unschooling will go well with him.It is really just a matter of letting him do his own fleshing out now.
It's funny, I had followed a link to the CurrClick site earlier this evening, and was absentmindedly looking at the offerings there. Superboy was nearby so I asked him if there was anything there that caught his eye. He said "Is there anything there that can tell me how to make authentic Native American tools and weapons?"
I said "No,it's really mostly workbooks and stuff like that."
He said "Well, I'm not really interested in filling in the blanks, Mom."
Enough said.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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folklaur
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| Posted: May 27 2008 at 11:28pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
| He said "Is there anything there that can tell me how to make authentic Native American tools and weapons?" |
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The Smoke & Fire Catalog's Book Section might have something along those lines.
hth,
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Unschooling
