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Macmom
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My teenager (a 15.5 year old dd) is very smart. Lazy, but smart. This year has been a roller coater of hormones for her (and me, her poor pregnant mother!) AND she attends the local public school part time (for honors bio, geometry, and Spanish I). The other half of her education is thru RCA (on line- for Humanities II and Theology).
She LOVES the brick and mortar school for all of the positive strokes she gets. The teachers adore her. She hangs out with them at lunch, and works with the librarians during her off hours. (The librarians are so impressed with the classics she has read!) She likes the immediate feedback on her work, the challenge of a classroom, and she is doing well. At away school, she isn't lazy because she doesn't want to embarrass herself in front of the teachers she respects. She even has taught a group of students to pray the Angelus with her at lunch!
She likes what she is reading for her on-line Humanities work and she likes her RCA on-line teachers, but she feels it is inferior to the presence of a live teacher every day. When she was Confirmed last year, she knew more than all the other students in the class, though many of them were 2-3 years older AND had gone to Catholic school. (Dh was the teacher- she didn't know more than him!!!) So she got smug and prideful.
SO- dh and I have explained to her that at this point, she still needs a Catholic component to her education (hence Theology and the Humanities class!) and we are not willing to give those up. Her argument is that she KNOWS everything she is being taught. She MEMORIZED her catechism (Baltimore). She has done 4 books from Scott Hahn's Scripture series (and Dr. Hahn himself quizzed her at a dinner party and was impressed!) There is nothing left to learn, she just needs to put her Faith into action, and (she thinks) that can best be done at a public school. (Dh and I are appalled that she thinks she "knows everything".... but thats the teenager's attitude, isn't it?!?) To an extent, I agree that now is the time to step up and let the "head knowledge" become action for Christ in the world. But full time public school? I can't do that right now.
Anyone else have a teen like this? Any suggestions for religious instruction that would challenge her? I wonder how many homeschooled teens get prideful because they ARE more educated about the Faith than their peers in away school and Catholic school. How do we prevent this?
Peace,
Macmom
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CrunchyMom
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Well, I have no experience as the parent of a teen, but I was one once. Not SO long ago, lol.
I think that if she is to be involved in anything, putting her in a school where she does know more than the others probably would be a step backward (given your descriptions).
In this op-ed piece, Charles Murray talks about the importance of having the very intelligent challenged to a point of hitting a brick wall.
That never happened to me until I participated in the honors program of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute the summer after my junior year of college. Then, I felt whacked in the face with all I didn't know.
The sign of true knowledge is to realize how much you don't know. Learning more would ideally make one humble because then we find how much we have yet to learn.
Anyway, I would guess that its pretty easy for a young person to get a little cocky until they first get knocked down a few notches by some humbling experience. (Heck, that still happens to me, lol). Anyway, it seems that finding a program, tutor, or subject that will really challenge the student is a good idea. Yk, learning Greek or something, lol, if it is "religion."
I don't know if such a program exists for the age group, but it was good for me to be surrounded by peers who knew more than I did about things. (It also led to my conversion to Catholicism, but that's another story).
You might also assign religious study in an area outside of apologetics and theology and more into the realm of studying some of the doctors of the Church. Studying the writings of a humble but important intellectually saint might be a good way to drive out the pride stuff. Theresa of Avila, maybe? I must admit to my own ignorance in this area of who to choose, but I do know there were lots of saints who were really smart--so, studying them might show insight into knowledge and the pitfalls of pride.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CKwasniewski
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Like Lindsay, I am not yet the mother of a teen, but certainly remember being a cocky teen!
Have you checked out the Dominican series of Catechisms for High school? They require a student to think about moral problems and contemporary society, not just regurgitate answers.
http://www.domcentral.org/library/priopres.htm#contents
Another option would be to have her read some serious spiritual works or saints autobios-- Augustine or Teresa of Avila. Not easy reading and certainly a lot of lessons to discuss. (Augustine's On Christian Doctrine is a good one too.)
Start her on Ancient Greek???
Or even better have her read about Socrates who was the wisest man because he knew that he did not know. "Last Days of Socrates" is a collection of dialogues about him, it wd be the place to start.
I would also invite over adults who are experts in their fields for dinner and discussion, while prepping them before hand that this girl is too big for her britches and needs not to be praised any further, but rather subtly shown how little she really does know.
hth
ck
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Macmom
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Yes, I can't wait to ship her off to a good Catholic college like TAC or Wyoming Catholic College and see her knocked down a few notches, but that is still a few years away. I LIKE the idea of studying the writings of the greats. (Like JP the Great, maybe?)
Keep the ideas coming!
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guitarnan
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What about combining writings of the saints and greats with a challenging Church history course? (Many non-Catholics dredge up the past as a justification for the Reformation, etc., so it fits with apologetics as well.)
In truth, there's always, always more to learn about our faith, as you know.
If your dd wants to put her faith into action, school isn't the only option. Perhaps some of her energy could be channeled into volunteer efforts elsewhere...and she could recruit her public school friends to help...now, THAT would be cool. So many need help right now, with the holidays and winter coming...
Food for thought.
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Barbara C.
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Is there someplace she can volunteer such as with a religious order or a diocesan office or the Cannon Law office? That could be a humbling learning experience in more ways than one.
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Barbara
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Macmom
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She has already had a pretty intense Church History course from me (I have designed a classical curriculum centered on history!) and she took Church History using Fr. Laux's book from Regina Coeli last year. She has also read Belloc's "The Great Heresies," Wood's "How the Catholic Church Saved Western Civilization," and most of Crocker's "Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church."
When she gets her drivers license in the summer, the volunteer position might be interesting. Our pastor is a cannon lawyer, and she LOVES him. What a GREAT idea!
I do think she has pegged herself right as afar as "putting her Faith into action." Of course, what I want to know is- why can't she put it into action more around her siblings? Why can't she be more responsible around the house? (sigh! probably no curriculum for that, to turn head knowledge into heart-felt charity.)
Her prideful attitude has just really got me down. She actually said there was NOTHING more I could teach her about Catholicism AND she wanted to find another role model for her Faith!!!! That her dad and I had taken her as far as she can go! Yet I know at away school, she is polite and docile (as far as learning goes!) and very helpful to students and teachers alike. She is proud to be Catholic and even has one young lady she is working on "evangelizing." Why does school get the best out of her, and home gets the dregs?
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CrunchyMom
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Macmom wrote:
| Why does school get the best out of her, and home gets the dregs? |
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I'm afraid that is true of myself as well. Home is safe, yk? What has recently humbled me in this area is to look at the blessed mother's example. She didn't have much of a public life and her sanctity was primarily lived out in her home and her service there. Not sure if the parallel works as well before you are a mother and homemaker.
I have deep regret for how little I helped my own family in the home--the lost opportunities to serve those I loved most. Now I have my own family and live across the country--helpless to help, yk? I am not sure how best I could have understood that, but keep trying!!! I wish my parents had been a bit less "understanding" and a bit more "demanding" of my mortification of my will...
I can't remember who it was, but I read recently about a saint who was so learned and eloquent he was asked often to speak. Well, he started feeling prideful from all the attention and gave up public speaking entirely to avoid the pride.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CKwasniewski
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OUCH! I really feel for you... 
This young lady needs more than a new course of study! She is obviously not seeing much further than herself, which is typical for a teen, but this is a particularly nasty form of self-centeredness.
I second the volunteer idea. That is a great route for forgetting about yourself and learning humility.
with prayers for you all,
CK
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guitarnan
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I agree with CK; this is a typical teen POV.
Could she work with some other people's children, perhaps in a homeless shelter or parish classroom, to discover that her own family is pretty together, after all? This would accomplish her goal (faith into action) and, perhaps, yours as well.
Sometimes we don't realize what we have until we discover that other people don't have it, and that can be a surprise.
Hang in there...this, too, shall pass.
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Barbara C.
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It seems that in some ways you daughter is self-aware enough to tell you what she needs, but she just doesn't know how to say it correctly and nicely. I don't think she no longer needed you or her father as role models; I think she feels the need for some new mentors. I think she is looking for someone who can challenge her in new ways and to role model for her in a different way.
It seems like you have really grounded her in church history and Catechism facts. Maybe it is time to delve into more philosophy, at least until you can get her hooked up with an outside mentor. It seems like she is looking for a more academic challenge.
And the next time she gets all cocky about knowing-it-all it might be a good time to remind her that she doesn't always act like it at home.
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guitarnan
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You know, I think I lost sight of part of your original post, Macmom. Going back, I see that part of your post addresses your dd's desire to attend public school full time, and she is using faith-into-action as a reason she should be allowed to do this.
My dh's colleague screens Naval Academy candidates for her local congressman...she told dh she interviewed one homeschooler (not Catholic) and did send his package up to the congressman in spite of his "arrogant" attitude about his homeschool experiences. Sometimes I worry that my own children will end up this way.
It's probably pretty easy for homeschoolers to discover and revel in the idea that they have some advantages, especially in matters of faith, over their ps counterparts. Still, I am sure that if I felt my dc were safer and better-educated at home, I would say no to any requests for full-time ps. (I hope your local schools are better/safer than mine...)
In the end, the CCC says that parents are responsible for their children's education, as you well know. Your dd knows this, too. Please pray hard and stick to your guns - I think you're already prepared to do this, from your posts.
Thanks, too, for posting your concerns, because I have a feeling I will be coming back here in a few years to remind myself why my own dd (headstrong, talented, lazy at home, eloquent) should stay home for a while longer.
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LisaR
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Macmom wrote:
My teenager (a 15.5 year old dd) is very smart. Lazy, but smart. She LOVES the brick and mortar school for all of the positive strokes she gets. The teachers adore her. She hangs out with them at lunch, and works with the librarians during her off hours. (The librarians are so impressed with the classics she has read!) She likes the immediate feedback on her work, the challenge of a classroom, and she is doing well. At away school, she isn't lazy because she doesn't want to embarrass herself in front of the teachers she respects. She even has taught a group of students to pray the Angelus with her at lunch!
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hmmm this sounds an awful lot like my ds, who is 14.5 and away at Catholic high school for his freshman year. I see the above quote that I pulled from your original post as all positives, and perhaps a natural growing process. I certainly don;t see our family as getting the "dregs" because ds is at school all day. The fact is, he is not/would not be that same way were he home with us all day. not bad, just different. he is at a point and maturity level where he responds well to outside competition, stimuli, and positive/negative reinforcements. All of which were a little lackluster here at home, I must admit. I'm not sad that he is at school, rather happy and grateful that dh and myself as primary educators were able to see very clearly what God willed for this particular child for this particular year. we have not given up anything, but have gained so much!
we are seeing a "drive" in him that we never saw at home, and while he never was defiant or oppositional at home, we can see now that he was very depressed and lonely, in hindsight, compared to how confidant and engaging he is now.
I think that for our son, being in a school setting is well preparing him for the college and the work world. I could honestly see him having an increased interest in the military because he even went out for football and now wrestling- having never played either before, he just thrives on the strong discipline and immediate stimuli of these rigorous sports...but I digress...
praying for your daughter, and for you!
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many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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PS, I suppose I meant the above post to state that I think one does not have to look at it as "giving up" if a child ends up attending school part or full time. And that being open to God's will means being a bit more flexible than having a firm resolve that all other doors must remain closed.
Has the "Didache" religious ed series been mentioned? it is a 4 year, intense high school rel ed program written by Midwest Theological Seminary (Opus Dei), Scott Hahn, Fr James Scocias, and many many other noted Authors. I had only known homeschoolers using it, and we purchased it to "supplement ds's education at home- until book day when he came home with the exact same book from school!
anyway, if I were doing religious ed at home, I would most certainly look into the series.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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as for being prideful, she will not know it all forever. even in defending her faith, it might sting and disappoint to know that she is "right" and yet others are not jumping up and down in agreement. How can she communicate with them? good skills that she is developing!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
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Elizabeth
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There is always something left to learn. Faith isn't knowledge. She needs to be reminded that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. But I wouldn't come right out and say that to her;-). Instead, I would provide for her some examples of humility and great faith. I'd start with asking her to read Left to Tell. Here's a more complete explanation of why I think this book is important. She needs to be helped to understand that it wasn't apologetics-type knowledge that sustained Immaculee. It was a white-knuckled, bare-boned, childlike faith. It was a very simple rosary. She can know "everything there is to know" about God, but if she isn't humble and she isn't charitable, she doesn't know God. Sent out into the world without humility and charity to put "faith" into action would really be disastrous. Eventually, she would learn that she's not a good witness at all. People who try to represent the faith but are not humble cannot be good instruments of the Holy Spirit. They end up doing more harm than good. Humility allows for obedience. For her, obedience begins at home and humility is demonstrated by "knowing" that she doesn't know it all and she is not yet wise. Knowing God is knowing that her parents know what's best in terms of choosing her "mission field." If she wants to put faith into action, she needs to model obedience and service for the siblings God gave to her. They are where she can faith into action. She needs to recognize that she could serve a pregnant mom (and soon a new baby) all day long and NEVER run out of opportunities for ministry. And while she does the mundane, she is truly being humble and truly allowing God to be master of her life. THAT's knowing God.
After Left to Tell, focus on lives of saints who were not great scholars. Hopefully, she'll develop an appropriate respect for people whose gifts aren't necessarily intellectual, but who knew and loved God very, very well. Some would argue that they knew God even better than the great minds who struggled constantly with an intellect that overshadowed a heart.
I'm praying for you! There's nothing quite like a pregnant mom and a teenager, trapped together at home, rubbing up against each other and making each other better people.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaR
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Left to Tell, IMHO , is a must read for every teen. for the reasons that Elizabeth and others can state so much more clearly than myself. I have a graphic "movie" in my mind still from reading this...
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
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Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
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Angie Mc
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Thanks for the book recommendation, Elizabeth. This will rabbit trail with the movie Hotel Rwanda that we watched a little while back.
Love,
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Angie Mc
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amarytbc
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I've noticed in my own family and in the daughters of close friends that many girls tend to be very prideful from around 15 until a few months before they go to college and start contemplating that maybe they don't have all the answers. Have you ever listened in on the RCA Humanities class this year? Usually the tutors are very good at challenging even the brightest student. If that's not happening, you should contact him and let him know she's finding it too easy.
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Love2learn Mom
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I'm not sure exactly how this applies to your situation, so I'll just share a little of what we've been up to here and you can decide if any of it looks helpful. :)
First of all, I was homeschooled for high school and didn't have a lot of intellectual or spiritual "peers" around my age. It did really help to hang out with other Catholic adults (including older siblings) - and have additional Catholic mentors besides my parents (which is, of course, saying nothing against my parents).
My oldest is now a teen and I've been running a catechism/apologetics discussion group for her and about ten other teens in our homeschool group for the last year or so. We have some interesting discussions, along the way, about how many Catholic events (like youth rallys) are aimed at kids that aren't that involved in their faith and these teens were wondering where they're supposed to go from here. I think the discussion group for them has been very helpful. I've also noticed that the ones who are the most reachable are those that are involved in their parishes - sometimes teaching CCD and whatnot - who have seen the urgency of attempting to answer the questions of young people out there today and trying to discover what they can do to make a difference in the world.
Here is a list of things that we've studied so far. They pack a pretty good intellectual punch (honestly, I get a lot more out of these books discussing them with others than attempting them on my own, even though I lead the discussions!) and we don't expect to understand them entirely the first time around, but they've been really good for us and made a lot of connections between our lives and the world out there:
Refuting the Attack on Mary by Father Mateo (Catholic Answers)
Deus Caritas Est, Encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI (this is particularly good for teens as they consider the connection between love and action!)
Sacramentum Caritatis by Pope Benedict XVI (great follow-up to the Deus Caritas Est)
And we've been working on Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict XVI since the spring - usually about 10 pages discussed per meeting.
It also occurs to me that I was impressed at quite a young age by St. Edmund Campion who spent many years of study before going in to the persecuted missionary lands of England to a certain death. It would not have been considered a waste even if he had been only able to influence a handful of people!
God Bless!
Alicia
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Topic: pride and religious "knowledge"
