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tovlo4801
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I'm sure many of you have already seen Julie's blog, but I wanted to make sure that everyone who's trying to figure out a much more relaxed way to do school is alerted to it. Both So what do you really do? and "Walking the dog and other LA activities" are so good at painting an unschooling picture.
I wish there was a group of about 30 Julie's right here in my neighborhood to meet with daily. Doing school this way just seems so right to me and yet it is also so completely foreign to the way I naturally deal with my kids. I seem to need daily reminders in exactly how to live it out. 
In the absence of my neighborhood Julie group  , I'm so glad I have this internet group to continue to guide me as I figure out how to gently guide my children to adulthood.
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Elizabeth
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I read Julie's blog and it does make sense to me. In many ways, it's what we've done. But it's not exactly what we'll do this year. I have a child, who at almost seventeen and the beginning of his junior year, is recognizing that he has some pretty lofty academic goals when it comes to getting into college. And he's realizing that some opportunities to beef up his transcript and to gain some valuable knowledge slipped through his hands in the last couple of years. We were essentially unschooling and he spent all last year totally focused on catching up in math, reading theology, drawing and appreciating art, and further developing his soccer game. He also slept a whole lot and watched hours of British soccer on television. He's on grade level in math and is earmarked as one of the state's top soccer recruits  . But he wishes I had forced the issue a bit more where science is concerned and he wishes that our history (totally literature driven) had some more emphasis on dates and documents. Because now, he has ahead of him the formidable task of prepping for the SAT and at least four SAT II tests while finishing three years of Spanish in two years time. Why? Because all three of the colleges he's serious about LOVE his self-designed curriculum but have told him that they will put more emphasis on tests because he lacks objective credentials. There is no SAT II for art history, theology or soccer. And he needs to do it now because this is his athletic window. Is he blaming me? Not out loud. Is he wishing he'd taken my gentle suggestions for rounding out curriculum more seriously? You bet he is. Would it have worked to have required that he do X amount of Biology before being allowed to go to soccer or that he complete X lesson in Spanish? I don't know, but with the next kids, I'm going to find out  . The kind of pressure my eldest is under now might not have been a reality a little foresight and some parental pressure earlier. I fully expect grumbling and complaining from my younger ones. One thing I think I'll do is do the admission tour at the beginning of high school. It might be that a kid that young still won't really care and set a college goal and own it, but it can't hurt to try.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Patty
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Because now, he has ahead of him the formidable task of prepping for the SAT and at least four SAT II tests while finishing three years of Spanish in two years time. Why? Because all three of the colleges he's serious about LOVE his self-designed curriculum but have told him that they will put more emphasis on tests because he lacks objective credentials. There is no SAT II for art history, theology or soccer. And he needs to do it now because this is his athletic window. |
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Elizabeth,
Just wondering--why is this his only "athletic window"? Could he take longer to work toward his goals of preparing for the SAT's and college? Could he even take an extra year? Would it really hurt him? Would the colleges frown upon that? If he is such an excellent soccer player, surely they'd still want him later on.
Just my thoughts.
God bless,
Patty
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tovlo4801
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Thanks for the insight Elizabeth!
I got stuck in an internet warp the other day after the Princeton Review of top colleges came out. I spent an entire afternoon pretending to be my 12 yo son and taking quizzes as him to figure out what he would major in and then searching out Catholic colleges that would serve the future goals I had mapped out for him. (I've mentioned before that I'm a planner right?) He was not terribly thrilled that I had his life planned out until he was 24.  
In my wasted afternoon I did spend some time looking at the requirements of various colleges and thought about how to motivate my son to meet those requirements. It occurred to me to begin exposing him early to college environments and getting him excited about what's ahead that way.
I think it's a great idea to take college tours with your freshman age kids to help motivate them to work toward the college requirements. Are colleges pretty open to that? Any other thoughts on how to motivate your kids early to want to meet those college requirements?
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Elizabeth
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This is his window because soccer before college is age-sorted. You can't play with kids younger than you are. So, when the kids his age move on, he has no team left. Once his cohort has gone to college, he has no one left to form a team. If he's not playing, he's not improving and he's not being seen by recruiting coaches. Fall of the 17th year is the big recruiting window.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Louise
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I don't know, but with the next kids, I'm going to find out . The kind of pressure my eldest is under now might not have been a reality a little foresight and some parental pressure earlier. I fully expect grumbling and complaining from my younger ones. |
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So what are your plans? Does this mean a different approach altogether or just more follow through?
Blessings.
Louise
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Louise, mom of 11
http://timetokeep.blogspot.com/
http://ecolebuissonniere.blogspirit.com/
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Elizabeth
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Louise wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
| I don't know, but with the next kids, I'm going to find out . The kind of pressure my eldest is under now might not have been a reality a little foresight and some parental pressure earlier. I fully expect grumbling and complaining from my younger ones. |
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So what are your plans? Does this mean a different approach altogether or just more follow through?
Blessings.
Louise
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I don't for one minute regret all the theology, even though most of the colleges he's looking at will probably give it only a passing glance and I don't regret the art because he's passionate about it. I will still encourage passions but I will have a list of expectations spelled out more clearly. The next child up, particularly, would just drift through life if I'd let him. He would play video games nonstop for the next six years and he freely admits it. But I'd like for him to have a more substantial education than that by the time he's eighteen (he's already a year behind grade level, btw). We're taking him with us on the next college tour and we're also taking him to the police academy to talk to the admissions person there since he's indicated an interest. He will have to complete a certain amount of academic work every day (Julie's Arrow assignments are on the short list ) before being allowed leisure time or basketball practice. To some degree, it's just an exercise in discipline.
The third child is type A to the maximum. It's almost frightening how driven he is. No, it is frightening. With him, it's not a motivation issue at all. He'll do the schoolwork and he's an obsessive soccer player (who has more gifts than the first). So, he will be REQUIRED to relax. I'm going to MAKE him do non-competitive things and learn how to manage his stress more effectively. He has goals and they include accelerating through school. We'll help him meet those goals.But I hope we can also help him understand that even a high-acheiving temperament has its drawbacks.
Isn't it amazing how different children in the same family can be?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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Richelle,
Touring my oldest's prospective campus (Thomas Aquinas College) last spring really motivated my daughter. It is her dream to go there too and she absolutely LOVED what she saw there.
When she was 12, she was going through major adolescent hormones and I was quite overwhelmed with the care of a medically fragile child and then a new pregnancy which also required a lot of medical intervention. Every time I would try to work with her, we'd battle, so I just gave up. She basically read, wrote stories, and went to dancing and riding lessons that year. No math, no formal composition.
Well, now she regrets that because in her sophomore year she's only just in Algebra and she's worried about the SATs. TAC fortunately doesn't require any SAT-II's but it does have a pretty high average SAT-I for accepted applicants. Math will be important for her and so will a reasonably well-rounded transcript.
So she could sympathize with Michael Foss's situation; and she is personally opposed to the idea of unschooling because of that background. While I am being drawn to it because of my second son, who just isn't coping with a standard college-prep academic track and not because he lacks intellectual gifts or motivation for learning. But for my daughter, I have prepared a TAC-geared high school curriculum because that is definitely what she wants.
There are lots of things to think about, I guess -- and it's really interesting to hear the variety of stories.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
| He's on grade level in math and is earmarked as one of the state's top soccer recruits . |
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OH and many, MANY congrats
That is really awesome! I know how much work and commitment that took on his part and yours through the years!
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Willa
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Leonie
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Congratulations to you and your son, wrt to soccer AND Maths, Elizabeth. :-)
Richelle, I loved Julie's entries, thanks for sending the link - I love reading about how others live their homeschooling lives.
In the same vein - my ds Jonathon and I are working on a blog. Some of the entries casually describe our days/weeks - and so I guess are a picture of our unschooling.
http://livingwithoutschool.blogspot.com/
Leonie in Sydney
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juliecinci
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Hi Elizabeth.
I wanted to chime in on the high school prep idea.
I agree with you that we have to be careful not to foreclose any futures with our educational choices. Unschooling must mean that we give our kids as much information as possible to make good choices about their futures. Some of them can't imagine the future very well and don't see how preparation is necessary in 9th grade but by 12th, suddenly see!
For kids who are sports driven and gifted, it sure is important to consider how to get them the academics they need to qualify for college in their freshman year of elligibility.
One of my friends here put her son in the senior year of high school at the Christian school where he doubled up on credits in areas he hadn't covered yet. He's being recruited for cross country.
I forget if Michael is a junior or senior this year, but he really can get what he needs. He can go to junior college or do two sciences at once. The thing is, the years he spent in art, theology and soccer are not lost on recruiters. They set him apart in some meaningful ways if you highlight these in the application process. Also, if he is that good in soccer, some schools will work with you - you might be able to take a missing science in the summer before his freshman year, for instace, or even take it during freshman year even though it wouldn't count toward his degree.
I try to give my kids as clear a picture of what it takes to get to college as possible. We have visited schools during high school (did this with Noah, oldest) and because I go to college and my husband teaches at college, the issue is ever present in our home.
My daughter is now ahead of schedule in her junior year when she was behind in her freshman year. she also took Latin one summer for fun. (shock) She has continued to take French long after she needs it. She's done biology and almost all her maths. She has more than enough English creidts right now and history is almost done.
She gets it. She's motivated. We do creative things (not straight text book learning) but also some of that too for subjects I am less able to teach. My husband is teaching a lit discussion group for her and her friends this year for English. But this child never needs reminders to study for tests or to turn in homework. She sees the bigger picture. She takes responsibility for her education.
We have chosen to have her take science and language at school while she is doing math and English at home. She also does electives at both school and home (independently).
We've narrowed the field of colleges based on her academic performance and her aspirations. We began with competitive colleges and have included those that are not so competitive. It's really up to her how hard she wants to work to get to whatever level college she wants.
My next son in line will be in eighth grade this year. He will begin algebra I in January. He has interests in science and math (neither of my strengths) so we will farm these out to tutors and classes.
Yet with all of this, my oldest son never did catch the vision. He really just hated school (organized learning) of every kind. He is 18 now and we just had our first undergrad/grad school class together at Xavier (NT Greek). He LOVED it. Said to me after class that he hopes to take another class next semester and now is interested in applying for next fall fulltime. He needs science... still. I told him - you have all year. It's doable.
So we'll see.
For my part, the issue has been this: I want the responsibility for decisions on them as much as possible. I can do this by offering, offering, offering and sharing potential consequences of choices (as far as I can see) and I can also offer my creativity to look for alternatives to the traditional route. We've succeeded with Noah getting him an exception as special student status when he's not yet 22.
Each year, I review goals and choices with my kids. I remind them of their stated goals as the year goes by when their energy wanes for things they say they want. But I let the final choice rest with them.
This was uncomfortable for me and them initially. They were used to having me to "kick around" (complain to about being forced to work). But one day my middle son said to me that he realized he couldn't blame me when he resented having to work on math or whatever subject because now it was his life, his choice. This was a dramatic shift. He had to face his own inertia, his own lack of interest and ask himself what it meant. It's been instructive to support him in overcoming his willingness to put his future aside. He's grown so much!
My 11 year old son at age 5 said, "I won't be taught." He meant it. He told us repeatedly that he didn't want to go to college ever.
Last year, he changed his mind. Shocked me. I shared what he might need to be able to make that dream a reality (since he does the least "school" like learning of everyone). He said he thinks he'll be up to it.
So we'll see.
But this is so different than what occurred with my oldest, where I pushed him into Algebra I against his will (and found out later he cheated for half the course to not have to bother with homework), where I pushed him into Algebra II and he got straight Cs because he didn't care and I had to nag him every day to do his homework. This is a kid who didn't catch the vision for college.
Yet now he's in a college class and is starting to get it... at 18.
So I agree with the need to stay on top of their educations and to supply everything they need. I just don't think it changes how I happen to feel about pushing or requiring. I understand the regret or anxiety. What I think, though, is that that experience is also a valuable lesson... in listening to those who counsel and who know more than you do, in learning how to plan for the future. Home education is about all of that... and some subjects too.
Julie
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Elizabeth
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Julie,
I agree with everything you've written, I really do. The sports aspect does complicate things though because he CAN double up on sciences but we're talking about doubling up on sciences and foreign language and still finishing required government and then adding test prep on that--all while playing serious soccer every day and traveling several weekends this fall. Suddenly, reaching goals he's set for himself will require an intensity that is going to be very uncomfortable for the next several months. If nothing else, the physical demands are daunting. His life would be much simpler if he'd forced himself to do some things earlier.(Or if I'd forced him? Or maybe if I'd found more attractive options? A science co-op? I'm great at kicking myself and taking full blame ) And his brothers are seeing his pickle, sort of. That said, I don't think he could have done math before last year. We had years of starts and stops. Last year, he really did four years fo math in a year. But he did little else.
I must admit, I'm a little dismayed by the emphasis on standardized tests. I've written letters in my head explaining that his academic passions have no standardized tests...Sigh...it's as much a learning process for mom as for our children, isn't it?
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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juliecinci
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Elizabeth wrote:
Julie,
I agree with everything you've written, I really do. The sports aspect does complicate things though because he CAN double up on sciences but we're talking about doubling up on sciences and foreign language and still finishing required government and then adding test prep on that--all while playing serious soccer every day and traveling several weekends this fall. |
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That really does sound daunting. Wow. Poor guy. Want to send him care packages asap.
Elizabeth wrote:
Suddenly, reaching goals he's set for himself will require an intensity that is going to be very uncomfortable for the next several months. If nothing else, the physical demands are daunting. His life would be much simpler if he'd forced himself to do some things earlier.(Or if I'd forced him? Or maybe if I'd found more attractive options? A science co-op? I'm great at kicking myself and taking full blame )
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Live and learn, maybe. I am wondering if you can TALK to someone directly who has power.
I know that when I approached Xavier at first I got such a run around about requirements, admissions, transcripts - felt like a wall!
Then I broke through when I asked for the dean and exceptions. I started talking with someone high enough up to make the exception and I shared all the details.
I know from a few homeschoolers who've gone that route that the best way to get into a school is to have someone from the department that represents his interests (in his case, soccer, but it could be math or science or language). If they become convinced that he is worth the investment of the school, they can sometimes move moutnains in admissions. Typically, admissions focus on statistics (that's what they are hired to do). They don't think about the individual. Counselors can also be helpful.
I would do everything you can think of to get some of that work waived this year with the possibility of getting it during his freshman year or in summer school. Really.
Those SAT II tests really drive me wild. This is the latest trap that is set for homeschoolers. Someone decided this was the way to measure homeschool but it really wasn't and hasn't been in the past. I would see if you can find another route - really ask what ELSE can be done and push for what you want.
I don't know which schools you're considering, but I still think it's worth it to go to bat for homeschool. The unschooling loop said that it's important to not say "homeschooled" but self-educated or alternative education so that you can profile what he has studied, rather than giving the impression of "school at home." That might be important for you to demonstrate too - what he's done that is non-traditional but that is depth and breadth in a way that looks like evidence that he is college material.
Elizabeth wrote:
| And his brothers are seeing his pickle, sort of. That said, I don't think he could have done math before last year. We had years of starts and stops. Last year, he really did four years fo math in a year. But he did little else. |
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How smart of you to wait!
Elizabeth wrote:
| I must admit, I'm a little dismayed by the emphasis on standardized tests. |
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As you should be. I am outraged by it. I found this out when we looked into Boston College for Johannah. They made it sound like her entire educational history would be determined by how well she did on SAT II tests. I was furious.
So we are figuring out if we want to take on that battle or if she will try going somewhere else. Difficult decision since I love Jesuit schools!
Elizabeth wrote:
| I've written letters in my head explaining that his academic passions have no standardized tests...Sigh...it's as much a learning process for mom as for our children, isn't it? |
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Oh my goodness yes! And write those letters. Get them out of your head. They need to be written.
So is he a senior this year? I am adding him to my prayers... that you will find just the right situation for him academically and with soccer.
Julie
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Elizabeth
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He's a junior this year. And I'm sitting here thinking, are the SATs necessary in the fall of his junior year? I spoke with an admissions dean at UVA. She was the one pushing the SAT II. But my thoughts are exactly yours above. I'm thinking that tomorrow, I'll start calling around at the other schools. And as soon as it's legal according to the NCAA, I'll get coaches involved. The plus at UVA, in my opinion, is that this child has had a a teacher who was educated at UVA's education school his ENTIRE life! My dh thinks that if they stand behind their product (me), they have to let him in .
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juliecinci
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You can take the SATs during junior year, but be sure to take them at least twice. The ACT tends to be friendlier to homeschooled kids. My two have done fine on it with no prep and would likely do even better with a prep course. My daughter will take one with her tutor for the math portion. I teach the SAT/ACT timed essay part so she should do well enough.
Also, if he's a junior, DON'T cram everything this year. He can choose which course to prep for, take the SAT II right away for that course and then do the next one. This is the advice I was given by BC and I think it's solid, if you got the testing route. You can buy the preparatory booklets and teach to the test. Then take the test and move on to the next one.
I don't think he needs to ace these. He needs a minimum score (find out what). But if he's just starting his junior year, he has all the way through the summer before college to complete what he needs to enter as a freshman.
Try to think outside the box. And if he's done a lot of art and theology, figure out how those can count for English and history and then limit those courses this year so he can focus on foreign language and science if that is where he is weak.
What language is he studying? He can always do an adult course somewhere for business that gets the job done in half the time of high school. Sign him up for night classes that are eight weeks long or whatever (like at University of Phoneix or some other school designed for adults who work).
Exploring with you.
Julie
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Elizabeth
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juliecinci wrote:
You can take the SATs during junior year, but be sure to take them at least twice. The ACT tends to be friendlier to homeschooled kids. My two have done fine on it with no prep and would likely do even better with a prep course. My daughter will take one with her tutor for the math portion. I teach the SAT/ACT timed essay part so she should do well enough.
Julie |
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I think the essay will be his strong point. MacBeth tells me that the actual essay is only 12 points of the writing section. The rest is grammar. We've done almost no formal grammar.
It's so funny to see you write to teach to the test. And it's really sad that it might be necessary to achieve his goal.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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The more I think about this, the more it bugs me. This morning, I was reading TAC's magazine at breakfast. It was filled with well-written and thoughtful adresses to the garaduates. They were all excellent arguments for a true liberal arts education. I find it interesting that TAC doesn't require the subject tests. And I wonder if it's because those tests are likely to be very skewed towards political correctness.
While I was reading, my children were watching sign language videos. Signing is a passion for several of them. No test for that on the SAT site...
I wonder if we can't write narratives defending our passionate education and trust that admissions committees will be so refreshed by something new...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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juliecinci
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Elizabeth wrote:
juliecinci wrote:
You can take the SATs during junior year, but be sure to take them at least twice. The ACT tends to be friendlier to homeschooled kids. My two have done fine on it with no prep and would likely do even better with a prep course. My daughter will take one with her tutor for the math portion. I teach the SAT/ACT timed essay part so she should do well enough.
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Elizabeth wrote:
I think the essay will be his strong point. MacBeth tells me that the actual essay is only 12 points of the writing section. The rest is grammar. We've done almost no formal grammar. |
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My oldest had not done any formal grammar (except one and a half years of Winston) programs. He did very very well on the grammar portion of the ACT. The ACT tests your sense of usage. If he is well read, doesn't have any regionalisms (like saying "don't" when you should say "doesn't") and if he is a sound writer, those kids typically do well on the grammar portion.
More surprising to me was that Noah didn't do well on reading comprehension the first time he took it. He didn't know the trick about reading the questions first and so he'd get all caught up in the little story but then would have to work hard to go back to find the picky details they were looking for. He reads profusely so this really cracked us up that his kind of reading was a liability in testing.
The next time, he was prepared for how to take the comprehension portions and did great by contrast.
Also, my son never did a foreign language. He did ASL also and that counts for foreign language. So check that one off your list. If he's done the equivalent of two years, he's done.
Elizabeth wrote:
It's so funny to see you write to teach to the test. And it's really sad that it might be necessary to achieve his goal. |
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I know! I hate that!
I am at the point where we are reevaluating what colleges to apply to based on the craziness of their requirements. St. John's in Annapolis and Santa Fe (both incredible liberal arts educations) don't care about test scores. Your admission is based on the interview, your essays (they do multiple) and your transcript. Very homeschool friendly. They want to see what you have to contribute to their college environment that is unique. That was refreshing.
We're going to apply to BC anyway as our "stretch" school and see what happens... Can't hurt.
Julie
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Willa
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Elizabeth, Clare tried the practice new SAT last year and did fine on the writing multiple-choice part in spite of having a fairly weak grammar background. It is mostly language intuitional I believe -- usage as Julie says. I doubt if Michael will have problems, honestly.
We're more worried about that essay -- they appear to score them according to how they look when you hold them up six feet away -- five 3-sentence paragraphs, etc. That being said, any child can probably be taught to do that even if I don't consider it REAL writing 
I was thinking more about Michael and the SAT-IIs. Besides foreign languages, I CAN'T think how it would have been better for him to have drudged through a lot of science and history facts in 9th and 10th. How would he even have retained it? I just can't believe anything like that you learn in freshman and sophomore years would really "stick" until junior and senior years. Isn't it better just to devote a year to basically cramming to get through the hoops for his sports eligibility as he is doing, rather than wasting 3 or 4 years? Though not much fun, much more efficient and goal-oriented to do it NOW when he has a direct motive.
Hope so anyway ! I wish him constructive studying if that's what's necessary to meet his dreams -- I KNOW God has a good plan for him but it's anxiety-producing trying to discern it and make it work, I know 
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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MacBeth
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I have heard that many kids are opting to take the SATII science tests right after they take the course...9th grade for bio, tenth for chem, etc. Just seems to make more sense than to wait 3 years after taking the test. 
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God Bless!
MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
Nature Study
MacBeth's Blog 
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: so what do you really do? (Unschooling)
