| Author | |
hereinantwerp
Forum Pro
Joined: Dec 17 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 11:57am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
I have a ? about unschooling. I suspect it would really fit one particular child, and I've read a lot about it over the years and elements have really appealed to me. But I just keep stumbling over something, and this morning I was trying to think it through exactly what it was. I think it is this--I just don't trust that my children, left to themselves, are going to make wise choices. It seems to me that human nature, in general, does not tend to this! There is the part of us that leans to the good, but there's the other part, the flesh, which can be downright lazy and unwilling to work, or can be drawn to "baser", or even destructive things.
I can see that there's a difference between "unschooling" and "unparenting", re. parent is still facilitator and coach and counselor and etc. But then that becomes directive, it is not "pure unschooling" (or they seem to conradict to me), and then it becomes a ? of, HOW directive to be--and then it doesn't seem like unschooling any more. It's a big confusing circle in my brain.
In any case I am pretty sure I could not fall into an "radical unschooling" camp, ever, because there are certain content things I desire my kids to learn, and feel it is my resp. to see that they learn (some basic knowledge of their world, their God, history and science, reading, math and writing)--then it again becomes a question of "how much" . . .
At the same time, I am realizing somehow I DO need to relax more. I get too anxious about the whole schooling thing, it can all become very anxious and stressful and unpleasant and that's because I am making it that way, because of my own anxiety about needing to cover certain things. But I must be trying to do too much, taking on a "yoke" that is too heavy or doesn't really fit. And I am trying to figure it out.
Thank you for your thoughts.
__________________
Angela Nelson
Mother to Simon (13), Calvin (9), and Lyddie Rose (3)
my blog: live and learn
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Barbara C.
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 882
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 4:25pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Unschooling really is a matter of trust, and I believe that in its purer forms it really can work with some children. I also think that it is ideal for younger children who in general have short attention spans unless it is something they are really in to doing.
I have seen kids who get really into something and will exhaust that subject until they learn every little thing and often hit subjects you wouldn't normally connect with a topic. One example I've seen is a kid obsessed with basketball who not only studied the rules and played the game but studied the history and obviously used math to keep score and track statistics.
Then you have children like my daughter who want to learn something until it doesn't come as easy as they would like. Then I have to weigh if it is just because she is not developmentally ready or just because she isn't willing to persevere. Some unschoolers would admonish me saying that if she really wanted and needed to learn it she would persevere and just do it when she is ready. My only concern would be that she would never be inspired to stick with it enough, and in the meantime would miss the enjoyment that mastering the concept would otherwise afford her.
In a previous discussion someone mentioned a quote about how unschooling should offer as much freedom as is comfortable for the parent. Many parents, including myself, set aside a specific time for studying a few basics, usually Math and reading/vocabulary, and then leave a large portion of the day open for kids to explore their own interests and learn from playing. This may not be true unschooling, but many people don't just follow one method. Many pick and choose what works for their family at any given time.
And homeschooling in general can be overwhelming, especially when you want to prepare your children for everything. You get to a point, though, where you realize that you can teach them everything. The best you can do is teach the basics of most things, give them tools for further self-exploration, and assist them the best you can in which ever direction their learning inclinations take them.
Now these are just my thoughts.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
chicken lady
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2315
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 4:40pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I am not sure what the question is??????
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Pricelesslorna
Forum Newbie
Joined: Aug 12 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 6:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Unschooling doesn't work without good trusting and responsive relationships in both directions.
The idea that parents completely back off and leave their kids to their instincts is not correct.
As a Catholic radical unschooling family, if our children want to do something that they are not prpared for with enough information/skills/wisdom to be safe on their own, then we are right there with them supporting them to go as far as is safe.
My response when people say parents are not as involved is to say that "freedom is not real freedom without full information" meaning that it is the parents role to be fully involved relating to and guiding their children, as and when needed.
I think the difference comes in, in the way we approach this...... positive relating styles, learning to say qualified yes' instead of a point blank no. giving support and encouragement instead of always directing them to do it the way we think they should...... checking inside ourselvesabout why we want to set a certain limit or require certain things - is our motivation in order, or are we trying to control? , acknowledging that it is OK for them to work things out for themselves, and keep chatting with them to see where they are at, bringing in other ideas and thoughts to lead them to wisdom and grace.
I think though that primarily it is about praying and trusting God to be the centre of your childs life, recognising that God can teach you through your children, and that sometimes there is greater wisdom in how your child sees something than the perspective we have managed to form.
It's about allowing your child to find their butterfly wings, and finding your own, taking space and time to walk a different life, one that has time for exploring naturally, beauty, art, nature, technology, science, music, literature, mathematics all through real life encounters rather than contrived teaching methods.
Unschooling is about living abundant life.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hereinantwerp
Forum Pro
Joined: Dec 17 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Sept 13 2007 at 11:09pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
it wasn't just one question, exactly, maybe what I am trying to do is wrap my mind around the whole "unschooling" idea and see if it, or aspects of it, might work for us--
because I've got big red flags that I need to "relax" more somehow.
and if "trust" is at the core of it--I'm not a very good "truster" . . . ! or a good "relax-er". I'm needing to learn--!
one thought I have been mulling over the last 24 hrs. is that it seems to me like John Holt was really the original inspiration for the homeschool movement here in America. (there have always been iconoclasts who got their education outside of school for one reason or another, but as far as a movement that people identified with, this seems like the beginning). Now the hs movement is such a huge, multi-branched tree shooting off in many directions, many of which look not at all "Holtish" (hardcore classical ed., or a full textbook curriculum, for eg!). but orignally the idea of "homeschooling" came out of a dissatisfaction with institutionalized schooling, and asking the questions of HOW children truly learn and what they need--NOT necessarily "what content to give them." It seems like I have been centered around "what content to give them" (not that some of that content isn't exciting and fascinating stuff!), but maybe it is the wrong concern at the center--?
just thinking things out here.
sorry if all that is clear as mud--!
__________________
Angela Nelson
Mother to Simon (13), Calvin (9), and Lyddie Rose (3)
my blog: live and learn
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Mary G
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
|
| Posted: Sept 14 2007 at 7:39am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Angela,
I'm not a true unschooler but I do let the kids show me which direction to go based on their interests ... for instance, to help a slow reader, we read lots of fairy books and do fairy activities so she WANTS to learn to read (without using a textbook or phonics program but just having her sit there and READ with me).
Or I've planned to do the Ancient cultures this year -- so now that we're doing Ancient Egypt, my guys are showing me that they are really interested in the battles and the physics of how they built things while my daughter wants to imitate the art and make things that represent Ancient Egypt... we're learning all we "need" to about Egypt but they "own" it because we're doing it in a way that they're interested.
What you might try to do -- to gain a bit of "trust -- is to allow your kids to lead in a "soft subject" like science or history -- you pick the era or type of science and they pick how they'll learn it .... use lots of books and hands-on (which is why unschooling could NEVER be un-parenting as you'll probably be more involved than before!  ) and you'll see the benefits of child-led, parent-involved learning ....
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Sept 14 2007 at 12:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
We do somewhat the same as Mary. I plan and "assign" -- but I look to the kids for clues as to direction and focus -- what I see that they seem to need, and what they want.
I think of it as sort of a dance, or the way a nursing relationship works -- I may set the agenda in some ways because I am older and because as the mom, I inevitably set the atmosphere and tone because of what I am.
But part of my setting of the atmosphere is looking to what THEY, the kids, are like, and respecting them as human persons. Yes, they are fallen, but so am I. Part of my fallenness is a temptation to require and set rules for my own convenience, not to help them grow. I have to watch that in myself as well as watch for permissiveness out of laziness or fear --- permissiveness is not unschooling~!
And because we are created good, in the image of God, though weakened by original sin -- and we have the graces of the sacraments, including the matrimonial one -- I can listen to my intuition.... which of course, needs to listen to the teachings of the Church, the leadings of my husband, and so on.
It is not quite a matter of "leaving them to themselves" -- it is not that way with radical unschooling, either -- radical unschoolers say that RU is NOT neglect. They call it "mindful parenting" -- keeping their eyes on their kids, looking for thoughtful and loving alternatives to reflexive and rule-oriented parenting.
It has become less relevant to me now whether I am an unschooler or not -- we just do what I think is good for a learning environment. The unschooling questions come up when something is going wrong -- when the kids are not learning -- and help me to discern what we can change. I look for alternatives to just pushing things through, both in parenting and in education, because I don't think that's the way people become the best and most educated humans -- they need to WILL to learn and act well, and that comes from the heart and mind and spirit, not from outside coercion.
I don't know if that makes sense -- I need to get back to Algebra
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Sept 14 2007 at 1:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
hereinantwerp wrote:
In any case I am pretty sure I could not fall into an "radical unschooling" camp, ever, because there are certain content things I desire my kids to learn, and feel it is my resp. to see that they learn (some basic knowledge of their world, their God, history and science, reading, math and writing)--then it again becomes a question of "how much" . . .
At the same time, I am realizing somehow I DO need to relax more. I get too anxious about the whole schooling thing, it can all become very anxious and stressful and unpleasant and that's because I am making it that way, because of my own anxiety about needing to cover certain things. But I must be trying to do too much, taking on a "yoke" that is too heavy or doesn't really fit. And I am trying to figure it out.
Thank you for your thoughts. |
|
|
I took an unschooling "sabbatical" a couple of years ago -- decided to test the waters, so to speak, and just observe and learn. Before that we had been doing things in a quite structured way, and I was getting very burned out. The unschooling trial was very difficult, and the reason for the difficulty, I realized, was my anxiety and my need to measure how OK I was. I do not know if that makes sense, but I found unschooling to be truly humbling for me, a humbling that I think I needed.... a "letting go". I kept thinking about Therese of Lisieux's "Little Way" -- it helped me to read HOmeschooling with Gentleness because it brought out the similarities between her Little Way and the "littleness" (or so I saw it) of a quiet, receptive manner of looking at what learning was about.
For other people, unschooling may be very different!
It also helped me to realize that throughout history, people have not always needed a standardized curriculum and 180 days, 6 hours a day of schooling to become thoroughly educated. Look at Lincoln ... or Helen Keller... or Benjamin Franklin... the examples go on and on.
I am with you about a "content" -- I do not want to let go of the Liberal Arts ideal of a rounded education. But HOW I might approach that is influenced by unschooling. I look for ways to introduce the children to the "wide room" of the great human Conversation -- there are so many wonderful things to learn... that is where Real Learning principles come in handy -- they mesh with my classical and Charlotte Mason influenced ideals.
But I don't think unschooling has to be opposed to a content. I think it comes back to educating by who you are personally, by your relationship to your kids. For example, my parents were great examples of continually learning -- so I learned to love learning not from my schooling (which I hated) but from my home life. I grew up loving classical music and the good childrens' books because that was what was in my house.
Again, I liked Homeschooling with Gentleness for that reason -- the author was a Thomas Aquinas College alumna, and she has high intellectual aspirations for her children, but because of the very nature of those aspirations, she does not want to push them through things that they resist, that don't have meaning for them, that are unpalatable for them at that time and in that way.
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
monique
Forum Pro
Joined: Sept 11 2007
Location: Wyoming
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 345
|
| Posted: Sept 14 2007 at 4:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi Angela,
It sounds like we are in the same place with homeschooling. I have one child that absolutely resists everything and I think to myself, I know he's not learning if he's angry or mad. It's a huge vicious circle between us. I try to let go a little and then I feel guilty that he isn't doing his schoolwork plus the money we spent on the curriculum. I'm very curious about trying new things. The thing about unschooling that worries me is that if we lived in a bigger community and had more opportunities to do things, I might not feel so guilty. The library here is also very disappointing. And we can't do interlibrary loan because we have to pay $2 a book.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I really identified with your post and enjoyed the responses.
Monique
mom to Shaylan, Liam, Riley, Seamus, and Tiernan
my blog raisingsaints-mrsh.blogspot.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hereinantwerp
Forum Pro
Joined: Dec 17 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Sept 15 2007 at 11:22pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
WJFR wrote:
The unschooling questions come up when something is going wrong -- when the kids are not learning -- and help me to discern what we can change. I look for alternatives to just pushing things through, both in parenting and in education, because I don't think that's the way people become the best and most educated humans -- they need to WILL to learn and act well, and that comes from the heart and mind and spirit, not from outside coercion.
|
|
|
What a good quote that is. I think that is exactly what's provoking the ?s for me--things AREN'T going well with this one particular son--whereas the other son is doing great with the structure we had, in fact, he needed even a bit MORE structure than in years' past, and is thriving! Though his "program" is structured, it is really based around his input, his interests, his unique needs, his personality--and these things are really not so different from an unschooler's aim--
I think I get "bogged down" in these philosophies because the core ideas appeal to me, and they are often based around some observable need that I can identify in my children, but it seems that for most any educational philosophy, they can become very rigid and limiting. And the atmosphere of a home is fundamentally different than a schoolroom, much more individual--relational--and, (by necessity, at least for those of us with toddlers!), flexible! One simply cannot FOCUS in the same single-minded way in a home setting as one can in a classroom.
I could see how an "unschooling trial" would be a very humbling thing. My guess is it would feel very similar for me (anxiety-raising, vs. peaceful or freeing--?). Maybe for people who are naturally very relaxed it would not feel so anxious . . . I love some of the ideas and thinking behind unschooling, I remember long ago reading John Holt and just wanting to say "Amen!" to many of his thoughts. And now because my second son is inherantly not a structured person as his older brother was, I am reading the theories again. But I want to take the ideas and apply them to myself and my children in a way that fits. It seems like what you describe, Willa, is more "discerning and loving parenting", than any one particular educational philosophy.
Actually for the particular child I am concerned with I am becoming very, very intrigued with the Waldorf ideas. I've always admired the crafts and things, but never looked into the philosophy before. (My older one gets a bit bored with crafts and things, so that hasn't been a big part of our school in the past). I am highly interested in the way they seem to integrate art into every subject, and use art as a means of understanding all other subjects. This just seems to be the way son #2 thinks and processes anyway. I think if I had tried it with my first child, though, it would have been a disaster!
I was talking with Calvin today, what does he like and not like about school, etc., and he said, "If I could do just read-aloud and art, that would be GREAT!" (Oh, and PE with Dad  ). Interestingly enough, I myself have been feeling so restless with "boring" structured school lessons, and wishing on the inside I had time to do some art projects. There's a latent side of me that loves that sort of thing--a bit of the child I used to be, who got left aside on the way! I was always wanting to do hands on crafts and things as a child, and it wasn't something my parents really valued or encouraged me in, and I think I eventually came to judge these things as "not significant enough", not significant like intellectual or conceptual work, which I was really praised for . . . Sometimes I wonder if this son triggers reactions in me because in some ways he is very like I was at his age, but it's the "inefficient" side of me that sort of learned to buck up and do what others around me thought was important to do. Maybe we could have a great time exploring and doing art projects together . . . a very new thought, and a very warm and exciting one. And I do believe the Lord has a way of "working all things together", by following Him it will be a way that is best for him, but best for me, too.
In any case it was through this site and some of the related blogs that I began reading about Waldorf . . . this forum has over and over been so helpful to me in providing guidance and wisdom along the way. Little by little, maybe I am getting some light in regards to our situation!
PS The homeschooling with gentleness book sounds very good too--I will have to look into it!
__________________
Angela Nelson
Mother to Simon (13), Calvin (9), and Lyddie Rose (3)
my blog: live and learn
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
hereinantwerp
Forum Pro
Joined: Dec 17 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 322
|
| Posted: Sept 15 2007 at 11:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
monique wrote:
Hi Angela,
It sounds like we are in the same place with homeschooling. I have one child that absolutely resists everything and I think to myself, I know he's not learning if he's angry or mad. It's a huge vicious circle between us. I try to let go a little and then I feel guilty that he isn't doing his schoolwork plus the money we spent on the curriculum. I'm very curious about trying new things. The thing about unschooling that worries me is that if we lived in a bigger community and had more opportunities to do things, I might not feel so guilty. The library here is also very disappointing. And we can't do interlibrary loan because we have to pay $2 a book.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I really identified with your post and enjoyed the responses.
Monique
mom to Shaylan, Liam, Riley, Seamus, and Tiernan
my blog raisingsaints-mrsh.blogspot.com |
|
|
I can relate re. the library problem! We just returned from overseas. I spent an unbelievable amount the last few years on books  , pretty much having to supply my own libary! It makes "rabbit trailing" or being flexible with the kids' interests much more difficult. We used Sonlight one year and that worked pretty well, the books they supply were on the whole wonderful--but if I used it again I would cut the AMOUNT of reading in half!
If you live in a rural setting there are opportunities within that, too, especially for "hands on" things. We're just about to join 4-H here for the first time--very new and "rural" feeling to me, should be interesting!
Hope you can find a solution that works for your family--!
__________________
Angela Nelson
Mother to Simon (13), Calvin (9), and Lyddie Rose (3)
my blog: live and learn
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: a question about unschooling
