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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: Feb 09 2007 at 8:45pm | IP Logged
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Thank you for responding, Helen!
I had assumed that consecration to Mary meant trying to imitate Mary. I know a family that consecrated themselves to the Sacred Heart. How is that different? I still don't really know that that means. I have assumed that consecration meant some special tie to The Sacred Heart or maybe Immaculate Heart. Sort of like taking them as the greatest "patron saint" of your family.
I understand the Lord being obedient to Mary as a child and young adult. I was the same with my parents. But now I don't always do what they say because I am an adult and, though I always respect their wishes, I don't always agree. As a young adult in college, I still obeyed my parents wishes even if I didn't want to, because they are my parents and I was not yet married (and they weren't paying for my school, so that didn't influence me  ).
So similarly, I think that Christ doesn't always do what His mother asks. (I am thinking here of apparitions in which Mary says things like, "I can no longer hold back the hand of my Son.") So I guess I go back to my mis-perception (is that a word?) of "power." I was thinking of power in terms of control or influence that must be obeyed (because the word "wielding" is so strong in my mind -- "wielding power over God"). That cannot be because she is a creature created by God and cannot tell God what to do. But really it's more like influence -- because Christ loves His mother He will listen to her and give greater consideration to what she says. Right? No?
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Helen
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cathhomeschool wrote:
| Christ loves His mother He will listen to her and give greater consideration to what she says. Right? No? |
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Yes and Our Lady also practices perfect conformity to the Will of God. She wills what the Lord Wills. So, what she asks for will be what God wants.
St. Maximilian Kolbe explains this idea. I'll look for his words.
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Ave Maria!
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: Feb 10 2007 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
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Helen, what an epiphany! That makes PERFECT sense!
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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msclavel
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Yes Helen! This is one the parts I loved in this chapter. The paragraphs where he explains that it seems that Our Lady wields this power ONLY because she is so full of grace that her will is always united with God's will. So again, we are drawn back to her perfect humility and submission to God.
I have also been struck with the aspect of Mary's eternal, unchanging role in our salvation. The idea that God CHOSE her and her role, He CHOSE to be born of this immaculate woman, He CHOSE to have her participate in her son's passion, but that all these things are not nearly a moment in history. Rather they continue on into eternity since God is out of time, so to speak. This is a huge insight for me as it gives deeper meaning to truly devoting myself to her because I MUST if I am to draw closer to Jesus.
Para 43:
If devotion to the Blessed Virgin is necessary for all men to simply work out their salvation, it is even more necessary for those who are called to a special perfection. I do not believe that anyone can acquire intimate union with Our Lord and perfect fidelity to the Holy Spirit without a very close union with the most Blessed Virgin and an absolute dependence on her support.
And again, the end of this paragraph gave me goosebumps:
20.... For this reason the more he (Holy Spirit) finds Mary his dear and inseparable spouse in a soul the more powerful and effective he becomes in producing Jesus Christ in that soul and that soul in Jesus Christ.
There's more, but I'll post again later because they are somewhat different themes.
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Helen
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| Posted: Feb 12 2007 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Wonderful quotes and insight Maria. Thank you.
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Ave Maria!
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cathhomeschool
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I have more questions. 
Paragraph 28 - "Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven. As a reward for her great humility, God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride."
I guess that this is one of those passages that he could "prove at great length by quoting Latin texts taken from Scripture and the Fathers of the Church..."[para. 26]?
Paragraphs 30-32. Umm....I assume that by "Israel" he means "those who will some day be in heaven." ? I find it kind of harsh and hard to accept that Mary would not be mother to all. Even the reprobate would have been a person with the potential of taking the right path at some point in life. Would she not have been his (or her) Mother then, praying for him and grieving for his mistakes? Eve is mother to all, and Mary is the new Eve.
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aussieannie
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I think there is mystery in all of this. The mystery of God knowing the final end of every person, but does He stop offering His grace and help to those He must know will ultimately reject Him?
What I do know is that Mary reflects God perfectly and that she contantly interceeding for all sinners, that she is a 'refuge of sinners' and that it would continue until the final dying breath of each person on earth.
It is always sinners that reject God as their Heavenly Father and Mary as their heavenly mother - our free will is untouchable. The rejection is never the other way round. Their hand and grace is always outstretched to repair this rift, whilst the sinner is still alive.
For those in hell, they are eternally separated from the mystical body of Christ and therefore cannot claim either as their parents.
For those on earth, we have no better advocate than our Mother.
These are just my thoughts Janette and I might not still have answered the questions you have about the paragraphs. I would be interested to hear other's thoughts on it too.
I think that St Louis is talking about a setting outside of time....when all wills are now fixed and the earthly trial is ended. I think a reprobate is one truly, only once they have come before the judgement seat.
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aussieannie
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Here is the writing of St Alphonsus Liguori, quoting other well known saints:
St Alphonsus Liguori wrote:
According to St. Alphonsus Liguori, St. John Damascene affirmed that Mary is not only the refuge of the innocent, but also the wicked, who implore her protection: "I am a city of refuge of all who fly to me." Alphonsus also attested that St. Bonaventure said of her: "Thou embracest with maternal affection a sinner who is even despised by the whole world, nor dost thou cease thine embrace until thou hast reconciled him with his Judge." Thus, if a sinner has recourse to Mary, the refuge of sinners, not only does she not despise him, but embraces him with affection and does not leave him until her Son Jesus Christ, Who is our Judge, has forgiven him:
Since, then, O my Lady, thou art the Refuge of all sinners, thou art my refuge. Thou, who despisest no one who has recourse to thee, despise me not, who recommends myself to thee:
"Refuge of sinners, pray for us.
O Mary, pray for us, and save us." |
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I think that "Israel" must be those who choose to accept the merciful help of Our Lady (the grace of God) and for some Israel's that may be on their death bed, in their last moments.
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Janette, I found this in Chapter 2 (from paragraph 82)as well:
True Devotion wrote:
| She is kind, she is tender, and there is nothing harsh or forbidding about her, nothing too sublime or too brilliant. When we see her, we see our own human nature at its purest. She is not the sun, dazzling our weak sight by the brightness of its rays. Rather, she is fair and gentle as the moon, which receives its light from the sun and softens it and adapts it to our limited perception. She is so full of love that no one who asks for her intercession is rejected, no matter how sinful he may be. The saints say that it has never been known since the world began that anyone had recourse to our Blessed Lady, with trust and perseverance, and was rejected. Her power is so great that her prayers are never refused. She has but to appear in prayer before her Son and he at once welcomes her and grants her requests. He is always lovingly conquered by the prayers of the dear Mother who bore him and nourished him. |
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I love this whole thing but particularly,
"He is always lovingly conquered by the prayers of the dear Mother who bore him and nourished him."
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cathhomeschool
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Anne, I have been meaning to pop back in here for weeks now to thank you for your time in answering my questions! Sorry! You were very helpful!
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RamFam
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msclavel wrote:
This is a huge insight for me as it gives deeper meaning to truly devoting myself to her because I MUST if I am to draw closer to Jesus.
Para 43:
If devotion to the Blessed Virgin is necessary for all men to simply work out their salvation...
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Can I bring this up again? Let me say first that I am a Protestant convert to Catholicism. It has been a few years, but Mary was the most difficult obstacle during conversion.
That said, I am having trouble grasping the above statement: Devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation? I'm having trouble squaring that with Christ's words that "I am the Way...No one comes unto the Father except by Me." Does that make sense? What am I missing? Help me to better understand as I truly do desire to consecrate myself to Mary.
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Helen
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RamFam wrote:
| , I am having trouble grasping the above statement: Devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation? I'm having trouble squaring that with Christ's words that "I am the Way...No one comes unto the Father except by Me." Does that make sense? What am I missing? Help me to better understand as I truly do desire to consecrate myself to Mary. |
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Hi Leah
I'm glad you asked this question. There are many ways to answer it and I hope others will offer more perspectives. One simple way of speaking of the importance of Mary's part in our spiritual lives is to reflect on how important the Lord considered Mary.
Our Lord did not come down from Heaven as a fully grown man to begin his public life or working miracles and preaching even though the Gospel of St. Mark begins at the beginning of his public ministry. There is more to meditate on, more to contemplate to Christ than His public ministry. We have to rewind the clock, going back thirty years, to the time before He became flesh. The Idea was in the Mind of God. He approached the Holy Virgin, through the message of an angel, and asked of her...
Will you provide a Body for me so that I may walk the earth? I long to share in the life and hardships of my children. I want to enter their world, speak to them, heal them, and show them The Way. I need flesh and bones to do this. Yet, I am merciful and meek. I will not stampede my way into the lives of men. I ask of your cooperation, the one who is Full of Grace.
Mary an essential player in the salvation of mankind. She cooperated in a unique way with The Mission of Salvation. Is she God? No. Did she work with God? absolutely. God is the One who placed her in this important part of the mystery salvation. Jesus came into the world through her. Just as the Lord came into the world through her originally, Jesus comes into the world today through her. Jesus comes into our hearts through her.
This is why St. Louis de Montfort says Mary is necessary for salvation. Mary takes us to the heart of Jesus, Who is the Way. The way to Jesus is through Mary.
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CrunchyMom
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My perspective, as a convert, is also that Mary is the Way to Jesus irregardless of whether the person is aware of that. Even people separated from their mothers at birth and raised in an orphanage have a mother who gave them life, even if they have never met her. However, a person who does not have a mother to guide them is at a disadvantage from the get go.
Just like the Catholic Church claims itself to be the only true Church, the church established by Christ, and that no one is saved except through the Catholic Church.
At the same time, the Church never says that everyone who is not a practicing Catholic goes to hell (actually, the church does not judge any individual as being sent to hell. I'm sure that there are people there, but there is not a single individual that the Church officially says went there). But, for example, if a Protestant Christian finds Christ in the scriptures, where did the scripture come from? Whether he realizes it or not, the truth of Christ was communicated to him through the Church Christ established on earth and its authority.
Another parallel to this is the idea that *we* are bound by the sacraments, but God is not. The sacraments are how God ordinarily bestows grace, but who are we to judge that god does not give grace by extraordinary means. We do not know what happens to the "virtuous pagan" who has never heard the name of Christ, but assuming that there is a means for that person to avoid hell, and if God spares him, it is certainly through Christ's sacrifice on the cross, even if the person is unaware in his lifetime.
The saints who we acknowledge as knowing Christ best here on earth were all devoted to the Blessed Mother. Even the most faithful Protestants cannot paint a complete picture of Christ without understanding Mary's role. I cannot think of another word, but a picture or knowledge of Christ is simply incomplete without the Blessed Mother. She isn't peripheral, she is central.
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Helen
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RamFam wrote:
| Let me say first that I am a Protestant convert to Catholicism. It has been a few years, but Mary was the most difficult obstacle during conversion. |
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Leah, here's a quote from the Catechism which uses the term Mediatrix. This might also help to understand how Mary, the Mother of God, dispenses the gifts of God:
CCC wrote:
| 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." |
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RamFam
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As I keep reading, St Louis is answering my question:
St Louis says wrote:
If they are sometimes heard speaking of devotion to your Mother, it is not for the purpose of promoting it or convincing people of it but only to destroy the abuses made of it. Yet all the while these persons are devoid of piety or genuine devotion to you, for they have no devotion to Mary. They consider the Rosary and the Scapular as devotions suitable only for simple women or ignorant people. After all, they say, we do not need them to be saved. If they come across one who loves our Lady, who says the rosary or shows any devotion towards her, they soon move him to a change of mind and heart. They advise him to say the seven penitential psalms instead of the Rosary, and to show devotion to Jesus instead of to Mary.
Dear Jesus, do these people possess your spirit? Do they please you by acting in this way? Would it please you if we were to make no effort to give pleasure to your Mother because we are afraid of offending you? Does devotion to your holy Mother hinder devotion to you? Does Mary keep for herself any honour we pay her? Is she a rival of yours? Is she a stranger having no kinship with you? Does pleasing her imply displeasing you? Does the gift of oneself to her constitute a deprivation for you? Is love for her a lessening of our love for you? -From "In what does Devotion to Our Lady Consist" 1. Basic Principles... First Principle... Paragraph 64 |
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4Real Forums : Hidden Treasure
Topic: True Devotion - Chapter 1 - All welcome!
