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chicken lady
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Great discussion Leonie! Interesting as I started to ponder the blending of classical into our lifestyle. The thought was brought on via Latin, and our (dh&self) belief in the need to study, and know Latin. It is a natural fit for us, as we prefer the Tridentine liturgy, our dc are naturally exposed therefore not needing to conjur up a use or need. This however lead me to re-look at Classical ed. it's validity, and discern once again "our" approach to home Ed. AS someone else mentioned, it seems to me to come full circle and arriving at our own dear CM.
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Cindy
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Leonie wrote:
lapazfarm wrote:
Cindy wrote:
| Instead of planning.. journal what they did! lol |
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And right there is the answer to my "product" question!
Thanks! |
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But the product ( journal) is produced by the parent.
I journal, too, but I also like to sometimes see a product from the dc.
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HI Leonie-
I would be interested too, in the product your boys produce. I think that, yes, I am the one writing the journal so that is my product (the actual writing of it) but what they did is *their* product. So they are producing things that are not visable. Maybe what I am trying to say is that it is putting in tangible terms their process- giving a summary which is product in itself.
There is tangible product, too. We see some of it here. I would like to hear more about what you do and how you are challegning your boys to do it, if you have a minute.
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Willa
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Leonie wrote:
I think back to Andres' book. To me, it was obvious, in the book, that Andres has a love of books, of classical learning and also has an interest in child lead learning. She seems to mesh the two - not planning on teaching areas that are covered by interests and a learning atmosphere or life - but using tools to cover those areas that stand out as needing encouragment or exposure or application - in her home, this is Maths, a reading list, writing, piano and religion ( from memory).
Is this unschooling or a blend? Does it ring true for you, Willa and Theresa and Tabz? |
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She calls it "unschooling" but I suppose it's a bit of a blend because there is some directed work, even if it's minimal. I think of it as "mindful homeschooling" -- she's very aware of what's overload for her and her son. That consciousness is what I can sometimes lose sight of.... like Cindy, I've burned my kids (AND myself!) with over-focus on production.
Still, I think this unschooling experiment of ours has turned out to be scanty on production. We are reading, watching, listening and talking, but not really doing anything that would fit in a portfolio, even as a photograph. So maybe that is the source of my unease at present. There has to be a middle ground. Perhaps journalling would help -- either me or the kids. I seem to get bogged down in HOW the experience fits into the big picture, when I journal, though -- which is where a preplanned structure helps me to see whether goals were met or not.
I wonder at what point one goes beyond what one could call "unschooling"? Could I say my homeschool is, say, 3 parts unschooling and 2 parts classical? or vice versa? These difficulties really keep me pondering -- I probably intellectualize too much!
At the classical college my son goes to, the curriculum is non-elective and quite directed in some ways but very comparable to unschooling in other ways because most of the coursework is based on reading, discussing, thinking and hands-on experience (a large component of his science class is nature study/field work).
Anyway, just some more stream of consciousness thoughts....
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Willa
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Willa
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and I meant to add I am really enjoying the thread. Lots of good thoughts, here!
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Willa
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molly wrote:
| Great discussion Leonie! Interesting as I started to ponder the blending of classical into our lifestyle. The thought was brought on via Latin, and our (dh&self) belief in the need to study, and know Latin. It is a natural fit for us, as we prefer the Tridentine liturgy, our dc are naturally exposed therefore not needing to conjur up a use or need. This however lead me to re-look at Classical ed. it's validity, and discern once again "our" approach to home Ed. |
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Hi Molly! it sounds like a great unschooling motivation for learning a classical subject, to me.
That brings up one more thing. The idea behind classical education (in the historical sense) AND CM is that the things to be studied are good, true, beautiful and appealling in themselves. So if I were doing unschooling perfectly, wouldn't those be the things our family would naturally gravitate towards just because they are the best?
I've read some blog comments on unschool blogs that run to the effect: if kids aren't FORCED to study Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen et al when would they read these great authors?
 sounds so weird to me because my kids read these authors in their spare time. They are shocked when their public schooled peers complain that Dickens and Bronte are difficult and boring (!)
That's just to illustrate my point.... we've unschooled literature to a large extent, I guess, and it worked. But I personally LOVE literature.
If I could bring myself to love Latin and geometry as much -- maybe it would be easier to unschool completely.
Sometimes I think we structure our kids' curriculums partly to scaffold the gaps in our own learning. Our first homeschool year with Seton was almost totally a lost cause EXCEPT for the Baltimore Catechism. I was a recent convert and didn't even know it existed. All those prayers and catechism q&a -- made a GIANT impact on me.
When I plan the childrens' learning -- what I wish I had learned as a child -- I get a second chance to learn it myself. My pitfall is in imposing something upon them because I feel I SHOULD or because there is a kind of pride creeping in. That's very distracting from what ought to be the key focus -- the worthiness and delight of the Great Books et al, themselves.
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Willa
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Cindy
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WJFR wrote:
| Still, I think this unschooling experiment of ours has turned out to be scanty on production. We are reading, watching, listening and talking, but not really doing anything that would fit in a portfolio, even as a photograph. So maybe that is the source of my unease at present. ... |
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Willa-
I am wondering how to define product. There is tangible product that would fit in a portfolio, such as a report, pictures of a craft, tests, etc.
Then there is the product of thought which is not something you can hold in your hand, but would be a list of books read, things done, documentaries seen, discussions had, etc.
If the state requires a portfolio, then it would make sense to make sure some of the things in catagory 2 above were put on paper...
But if there is no state requirement, I wonder how important the prodcution is? It is nice for the family for memories and to see what has been leanred.
But I am wondering what value it has beyond that... not that it is bad, but is it needed and would it be missed if not made?
For transcripts, from what I can tell, it seems that a list of subjects covered (taken from journals and could include all category 2 type things) is just fine for college.
It seems that when we have discussions here, they are much deeper than any report I wrote or discussion I had in a classroom in high school. That counts as product to me. Unless I am missing something big.. which I may be! Am I? :)
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WJFR wrote:
At the classical college my son goes to, the curriculum is non-elective and quite directed in some ways but very comparable to unschooling in other ways because most of the coursework is based on reading, discussing, thinking and hands-on experience (a large component of his science class is nature study/field work).
Anyway, just some more stream of consciousness thoughts.... |
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Willa,
Based on what your ds is seeing at college, do you think it is important to have directed learning type of homeschool? Do you think that it is important too, to have lots of unschooly time and encouragement?
Or I wonder if a child would adapt no matter what he had at home? Oh.. now there is a twist! lol
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WJFR wrote:
That brings up one more thing. The idea behind classical education (in the historical sense) AND CM is that the things to be studied are good, true, beautiful and appealling in themselves. So if I were doing unschooling perfectly, wouldn't those be the things our family would naturally gravitate towards just because they are the best?
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HI again Willa!
I think that if the parent has a passion, it will rub off on the dc.. probably why you your kids love literature. I find my boys are both very well-versed in politics and economics and apologetics-- three things they hear a lot of around here.
I think you are right, that they might be drawn to great ideas (ala Cm and Classical), but I think the have to be brought into the atmsophere of the home.
Before I was introduced to Cm, I didn't see that atmosphere thing. We did much more secular TV and practially no literature. I had to make the effort to make the rich atmosphere and my kids grew up with it. If there is none in the house and mom and dad don't embrace it, it seems practically impossible for the kids to search it out.
I have found over the years that I need to bring in great ideas. Some are easy to do..(my passions), but others are not so easy. I recently had a conversation about this with a friend. We were wondering if we were short changing our children because we were not passionate and strongly literate in math.
I came to the conclusion that I cannot have passions for all subjects for my kids. But I can give them the gifts and the passions God gave me. Hopefully just the gift of seeing my dh and myself have passions will be the crux. Like learning how to learn is more important than 'learning it all' in childhood. Knowing you can have passions and they are worth exploring is more important that being exposed to every subject in a passionate way.
For the areas of non-passion ;) I go back to the feast. If we can lay out a feast, with great ideas then they can be introduced to the ideas. This is where great books come in, as well as other media. Again, back to Cm.... and her idea that if we provide a broad feast they will attach with a few ideas (perhaps 10%) and go deep with even fewer. But depth is not needed in every area. Only a few.
Just some thoughts... and again, I see the value that CM had in her perspectives.. just seems to make so much sense.
I also liked her idea of introducing people/ideas to the kids. For example, if they know who DaVinci is, then when they meet him later in life, perhaps adult life, he will be a 'friend'. That is what it is about.
I just don't see that we need to cover a giant spectrum of material... but instead introduce the dc to ideas.
Can you help me see why that might not be true? I am searching this issue, too.
I wonder about challenging the kids (Leonie you posted on this, too( I see challenges going on all the time with their own projects. And I ask them to do things, too. But do you think they need practice going through a set study to learn the techniques they will need in life and college?
Or perhaps this differs child by child? Sorry.. got a bit off topic, here.
I am enjoying this discussion, too.
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Willa
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Cindy wrote:
| Based on what your ds is seeing at college, do you think it is important to have directed learning type of homeschool? Do you think that it is important too, to have lots of unschooly time and encouragement? Or I wonder if a child would adapt no matter what he had at home? Oh.. now there is a twist! lol |
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My sample is n=1 so not really representative  plus the college he is going to is not "typical" in format. With that in mind.....
I think that the "unschooling" part of his education helped him learn to think outside of the box, to explore things in depth, to "contemplate" if you will -- look into the moment rather than always on to the next thing. LOL I can remember trying to refocus him on Logic, back in 7th grade, when he was looking out the window to observe the first spring lizard! But now he's observing ants and the like for his science class
He has a lot of curiosity and engagement in learning which I think came partly from being encouraged to explore.
Both the unschooling and the directed learning have helped him be a self-starter and internally motivated student..... independent work AND discussion/interaction.
He always seemed to need a little bit of direction to actually get him in gear.... he was not one of those kids who has all these projects bubbling up in his life. If I got him started on something though, he would take it further than I had envisioned, often.... like writing poems in Latin, or solving the extra credit math puzzles in the math textbook.
He always asked for MORE structure, so the directed part of his education could almost be called unschooling. I used to worry I wasn't challenging him enough. I will have to ask him for his opinion in the long run for that because there are two possibilities -- that he is doing well IN SPITE OF the looseness of the structure, or because of it.
The "directed" part of his curriculum DID help us with organizing a transcript, I have to say. I don't have experience in applying to colleges with a more unschooly and diversified transcript. But I bet it wouldn't be too difficult, eg with kids like yours who have interests in pretty solid subjects and a good variety of experiences.
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Willa
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Cindy wrote:
I came to the conclusion that I cannot have passions for all subjects for my kids. But I can give them the gifts and the passions God gave me. Hopefully just the gift of seeing my dh and myself have passions will be the crux. Like learning how to learn is more important than 'learning it all' in childhood. Knowing you can have passions and they are worth exploring is more important that being exposed to every subject in a passionate way.
For the areas of non-passion ;) I go back to the feast. If we can lay out a feast, with great ideas then they can be introduced to the ideas. This is where great books come in, as well as other media. Again, back to Cm.... and her idea that if we provide a broad feast they will attach with a few ideas (perhaps 10%) and go deep with even fewer. But depth is not needed in every area. Only a few.
I just don't see that we need to cover a giant spectrum of material... but instead introduce the dc to ideas.
Can you help me see why that might not be true? I am searching this issue, too. |
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You are saying:
1) Model a "habit of intellectual vitality" in your own areas of passion, so the kids see that in your life and
2) Introduce yourself and your kids to new ideas -- "plant seeds"
I can go along with that -- we are on the same page there. My area of confusion is more with the HOW to do this in a more natural way. I usually do it by means of checklists and the like I feel that leaves my kids a bit on the passive side of the learning.
But when I don't direct, the day sort of slips away. I might have a great conversation with one or two kids, but the rest of them will be kicking their heels. oops, have to finish this off, someone is requiring my attention.
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Willa
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Here's how today went -- as an example of what I was talking about -- : ):
--I made breakfast while the middle boys played with the "babies".
-- made the bed and got the younger kids to make theirs.
--I talked to teen ds about some personal things going on in his life that he brought up.
--Talked to DH for a while about plans for the future.(he works at home)
--I gave my daughter some suggestions for things to read in Latin since she is getting bogged down in her Wheelock's.
--I got my 13yo son started on his Algebra and told him to do his Latin vocabulary on Quia.
--I worked with my 10yo on a test prep book for about 10 minutes.... vocabulary.
-- I discussed the LifeTeen thread with my daughter for quite a long time with teen ds listening, also helped her think through a letter she was writing..... she is focusing on letter writing today and wrote several, has several more to go!
-- I typed an email while my 13yo read nearby --I don't know exactly what the others were doing.
--I made lunch for anyone who wanted lunch (we are recovering from a stomach bug  )
--read a story to the little ones and played a bit with them.
--took a bath, gave Aidan a bath.
--Did some laundry.
--3yo played a couple of Veggietales games online; 6yo watched a Veggietales video.
--3yo made a podracer out of Legos and played a racing game.
--6yo made Rice Krispie squares with my help while 3yo played a Pokemon card game along with his older brother and sister.
-- sent 10yo ds off to baseball practice with his dad.
--teen boys are presently playing a Star Wars computer game while teen daughter watches Pride and Prejudice and browses through a prayer book.
It's not awful, but it seems sort of "desultory" in CM's words, to me. Of course I haven't written everything, just the things I noticed. We are recovering from illness so other days might be a little more lively, but our default mode IS pretty relaxed.
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Willa
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lapazfarm
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Willa, your day sounds a bit like mine when I get don't direct also. I always wonder, but usually have the sinking feeling I have failed to do my part. Desultory sounds about right.
Just finished discussing this thread with dh and here is what we came up with:
After Easter we will begin our unschooling experiment.
We feel like if ds can meet age-appropriate requirements then he should be allowed to explore his own interests. The only area of concern for us is math, so we will require daily math practice.
For the rest of the day ds is free to explore his interests, with one caveat: he will be expected to spend his time constructively during most of the school day. He may read, he may work on a project, he may experiment,write, build or explore. He may just sit and think or have a conversation. As long as his mind is engaged in active pursuits (within reason for a 10 year old boy, of course!)This won't be hard for him as he is always up to something, and may sound like where I can sit back and relax, but just the opposite is true. THis actually, is where I come in. I need to pay attention to what ds is doing enough to offer encouragement, ideas, and suggestions for him to take his studies to a higher level. For instance: I heard the belt sander crank up the other day and went to check on what ds was up to. He is making bows and arrows and walking sticks. "Cool!" I thought, and left him to it. What I should have done is used today's trip to the library to find a book on Native American crafts to strew for ds. Dh suggested I should have engaged him in a conversation in which I ask him the about the effects of different size bows, weight of arrows, etc.
Depending on how this goes, there may be times we need to rein him in for a more focused study. For example if we see that he gets fixated on one historiccal era or literary genre. He may need a little more direction then.
So I guess dh and I see my role as evolving more into a "planting the seeds" type role (or "tending the garden", more like) and letting him bear the fruit.
Cindy,
You make an excellent point about products. There certainly are intangible products and I expect most of them are. And I am really not sure of the value of the tangible ones.I have often questioned that myself. As you said, maybe they won't be missed if they were gone?
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It's interesting, Theresa, what you are proposing sounds a big like Thomas Jefferson Education in the earlier years. Funny, another tie between unschooling and classical education  website on TJE
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What a coincidence, Willa! I had just run across that term (Thomas Jefferson Ed) the other day and was wondering what it meant. Thanks for the link. I will check it out!
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Leonie
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Lots of things to comment on...
Theresa, an example of a required product would be our Confirmation lapbooks - I had the idea, as a couple of mine are preparing for Confirmation this year. But how they constructed the lapbooks was up to them ( with my input, of course!  ).
An example of self initiated product would be Thomas' novel he is writing, Anthony's self produced comic book, Jonathon's art, Alexander's self initiated Latin study and written completion of exercises.
I think to not have a product would almost result in that desultory education that Willa mentioned - and I really don't want a by chance, desultory , little bit here and little but there education OR life for my dc. Or for myself.
Neither do we want to have everything planned and no room for spontaneity.
We used to be more radical unschoolers but I saw a need for more order. Its just that our order is not necessarily a school order - more of the kind of order talked about in Andres' book. That is why I say we are unschool-y.
Does this make any sense?
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Leonie,
You require a lapbook but don't give the details of HOW? So you are saying you set goals but are flexible about the details.
Sometimes I wonder if there's another reason going on why I can't seem to DO unschooling the way it's done. My kids can't just take something like that and go. None of them can, and I was the same at their ages. They are not naturally product-oriented. Product is a by-product of what they are passionate about, and almost incidental to the rest of it.
Some unschoolers say or imply that ALL kids charge out to learn unless they have been taught not to. Not so, in my experience. Kids differ in that just as in everything else.
Perhapsit's an introvert/extrovert thing. That's why I liked Andres' book. She was the first unschooler I read who didn't appear to have strongly "emergent" kids, but rather kids that sometimes needed to have things broken down a bit for them, who needed to adapt and slowly work things into their lives.
ANyway, this has been a GREAT discussion.
Theresa, I think the TJE material might interest you because it puts into artificial terms what you seem to do naturally. Like what we were saying about Socratic method. I think that doing it naturally is generally better than doing it artificially, though, so you don't want to lose that, for sure. Funny, the "better natural than artificial" idea comes straight from classical education tradition. Thomas Aquinas said it, I think he got it from Plato and ARistotle, and it was a large part of the Ignatian schools.
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Willa
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Leonie
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WJFR wrote:
Leonie,
You require a lapbook but don't give the details of HOW? So you are saying you set goals but are flexible about the details.
Sometimes I wonder if there's another reason going on why I can't seem to DO unschooling the way it's done. My kids can't just take something like that and go. |
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Well, I am there for input and it was not their first lapbook.
So, when Alexander came to me for suggestions on what to put in the lapbook, I was able to get out a religion text and Dinah Zike's book and suggest things.
I don't know if my kids are always ready to take something and go, but that is my ideal. Its what I encourage - and I am a product task sort of person, so I think they have spent their whole homeschooling lives seeing products. Makes a difference?
For example, when I looked at Sonlight years ago the first thing that concerned me was - not enough product! No projects, no writing or drawing about what we might have read. Just questions to discuss! Now, this was 1994 and I am sure that Sonlight has changed but I personally like to *do as well as read and think - and I guess I see value in that wrt education.
It is mixing this in with my unschool ideas and with CM and my Faith that encourages thought.
Interesting discussion.
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chicken lady
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I really like this imagine of "product" that is being dicussed. I guess I really have never thought that important, perhaps my dc are still young enough that I don't need to. Or perhaps it is my "style", I find when there are no "screens" to engage their minds my children really explore, read, create, and ask so many questions I never really think about the product. Today for example we played in the wonderful sun, loaded up to drive out to Amish country to a bulk fabric store, (we are making costumes for our local community theatres production of the Wizard of Oz.) We discussed Amish people, organic living, horses, gasoline/energy conservation. Why carnations suck up water(dye)...not sure where that one came from<G> We listened to Carnival of the Animals, and Peter and the Wolf, discussed which symphony we hope to attend this spring, while in the fabric store we spoke with several Amish mothers, about homeschooling, discussed fabric choices, raced home to Piano lessons, went to stations of the Cross, made dinner, read a couple of picture books, older children read chapter books, took baths and called it a day. Now in my mind that is a lot of educating, I see product as something intangable, and as I believe Cindy noted that if my state does not require a portfolio I don't need product. Does that seem like radical unschooling, or do you all think I'm missing your point!
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molly wrote:
| I see product as something intangible, and as I believe Cindy noted that if my state does not require a portfolio I don't need product. Does that seem like radical unschooling, or do you all think I'm missing your point! |
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I'm been watching the discussion and I'm gaining so much insight. I've been looking at our own homeschool and trying to figure out where we want to go from here and this discussion is helping me.
Molly, I got a sense that if not wanting a product was radical unschooling that would be bad. I'm not sure about how bad radical unschooling is as long as it is radical CATHOLIC unschooling. I have no idea if no product actually qualifies as radical, but just wanted to make sure you didn't discount the radicalness out of hand.
I am like you, I think. I am not naturally product orientated, nor are my kids much. I can easily make sense of how the intangible learning taking place is actually the product if I pay attention. I recognize that sometimes there's something tangible to go along with the intangible learning, but I never see it as the real product anyway.
But that's the way my brain works. I know that. I know there are others (kids or parents) who really need to SEE a product. Either is probably fine as long as parents are not pushing something overly hard on their kids that the kids don't really need. If a parent needs to see a product and asks the kids to do one for their peace of mind and the kids are obliging that sounds like it would work fine too. I would just question it if it is a source of conflict.
On the other hand if the kids are asking to create products and you as the mom are not someone who really needs to see it, you could be dampening what your kid's actually need, I would think. Come to think of it, my younger might be more like that. He likes me to type his narrations on the computer and he likes to watch the words show up and have a print out to show dad when we're done. So it's important to him when it's not to me. Fine. We'll do it.
I guess I just don't think physical product is actually a critical piece. Some people have an easier time seeing what's going on without the physical result and some don't. I think that journaling, while perhaps not a child product, is a wonderful way for the parent to make tangible to herself the learning taking place without requiring a product if it's not really necessary in their home.
Just my 2 cents...
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Willa
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| Posted: April 01 2006 at 10:32am | IP Logged
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| But that's the way my brain works. I know that. I know there are others (kids or parents) who really need to SEE a product. Either is probably fine as long as parents are not pushing something overly hard on their kids that the kids don't really need. If a parent needs to see a product and asks the kids to do one for their peace of mind and the kids are obliging that sounds like it would work fine too. I would just question it if it is a source of conflict. |
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Hi Richelle!
This applies to us and come to think of it is one reason why some "4reallearning" things don't seem to work as well for my family as for others. This spin-off discussion on product is helping me see WHY. I have to acknowledge that in order to homeschool in the most child-friendly way in my household.
Plus, I will acknowledge that while I find some "security" in a product, I do NOT find personal joy in my kids' products that I have solicited. I notice that every year when I am going through the kids' products to decide what to archive and what to discard. What do I stop and muse and smile over? The things they did that were THEIRS, the little Elfish scrolls and copywork of Christmas carols and drawings of complex battle scenes. What does NOT pass the FLylady "keep it if you love it" test? The little projects I had them do, even if they are pretty and well done and educational. I look at them and squirm a bit, and do not relish them. One example is the Beautiful Feet horse unit my daughter and I worked on. It looks dead to me, whereas her charming little cat poetry collection that she worked on for fun always makes me smile. That is how I am, and my kids are the same way when they are asked to weed through their things.
I read in The Temperament God Gave You that extroverts are motivated by challenges and goals, while introverts may be discouraged by these things and don't get as much real satisfaction from achieving them. On the other hand, introverts are able to toil along in "labors of love" with little exterior recognition or motivation. There are advantages and disadvantages to both styles but if we are talking about unschooling, we are talking about drawing out strengths and supporting/scaffolding weaknesses.
My introverts do produce, but again, to them, it's almost an incidental byproduct of their "passion". What they seem to need from me is a START and a way into something new, not so much an expectation or goal. I do agree with Leonie that all people have to be self-starters and be able to meet an expectation, but again, the "bogging down place" for my kids and I is how to break down the project and how to take the first step, so that's where they most need my "scaffolding" help.
I really love these threads that go a bit outside the box. Richelle, I think perhaps "I need you to do this project so I can put it in our records" might actually be a little easier on my kids than "let's do this because it's so much fun". But perhaps I don't need to rely heavily on either. Perhaps I can just keep planting seeds and seeing which ones come up and bear fruit. Anyway, it gives me a lot to ponder as I plan for next year.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Two interesting links on unschooling..
