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Mary G
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I mentioned this a bit on the unschooling board, but I think this transcends method of homeschooling....
How do you motivate a teen to learn? I have two teens now and neither one wants to "do their best" -- they are both products of primarily parochial schooling. I had Joe hs'ed for 2.5 years while we were in Austria; Cate also hs'ed during that time and then came home this past semester for high school. The rest of the time they;ve been in "real" school -- grades and tests are all that motivates them. they learn for the test and then promptly forget it. They do the minimum of homework -- and studying just isn't in it till test time....
Part of it's me -- I came for a highly academic background -- Dad was always going to school for this or that and always reading; Mom had a college degree and is an avid reader. A couple of the 7 kids went in the military right after high school, but 6 of the 7 kids has a college degree and three of us have a post-grad degree. We loved learning, reading and our grades reflected that.
My teens love to read -- and they read good stuff. They want to go to college as Joe would like to get into Sports Broadcasting and Cate has a gift for languages. But they don't seem to realize that by doing the minimal they won't have their pick of colleges; they won't be able to realize their dreams. They have white collar dreams with little or no performance to attain those dreams. My son hates manual labor and getting his hands dirty; my daughter loves nothing more than sitting on the couch and reading or doing crafts.
So how do you motivate your teens -- how do you help them attain their dreams -- or do you not?
ANY and ALL advice and comments would be most appreciated! 
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MaryG
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ALmom
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First prayer!
We try to keep some basic rules/discipline regardless of the interest - to keep some balance. I cringe at times, but having a basic plan does help us all keep on track. Since dd is motivated to get into college for her music degree she is very disciplined to get the work done - but not necessarily interested in what she is learning (if that makes any sense). Her love is music, so her basic mode is hurry up and get the academics done so she can practice.
As much as possible try to link what we are doing to the thing (music) that is her passion. This is limited by my knowledge and time, but we seize any opportunities that do this and invest in books to strew that do this.
Because she has such a strong passion for music and a desire for structure, a set of lesson plans has worked well to keep us from neglecting everything but music.
She has begun to look over our shoulders from time to time when doing stuff with the youngers - she has made many comments recently that her 8 yo brother knows more about science than she does (in 12th grade)  but at least she is paying attention to his excitement. Our hope is that she will be enticed by the other dc as her own load lightens (she is determined to get done with her 12th grade work to be free to practice more and is currently aiming for 3 hours or more on piano and about 1 hour on her other instruments). I have come to accept that she is motivated by grades in academics and will follow a plan in a disciplined way but will not pursue any of this out of any delight (at least not now). But her memory is good so she will at least have some baseline for later even if right now it's just grades/lesson plan that keep her going.
I look forward to other posts as so many of you have so many great ideas.
Janet
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Leonie
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Mary,
One thing that has really helped me, wrt teens and motivation, is to change the way I look at my dc. I read, in Leading Children to God, about looking at our children as Mary looked at the Child Jesus. By this I mean really looking at my teen as a child of God, special to God. I had paid lip service to this idea but when I really started to look at each teen in this light, I saw them through different eyes.
I saw them as special, with their own God given talents and personalities. I saw that they did have motivation and application in some areas and this showed me that they could and would apply these to other pursuits, in time. I saw the specialness in one son's passion for music and clothes, in another son's logic and didactive manner. 
Now, we are all people with things to work on. There is uni and careers to think of. I know this, too. But first my attitude had to be different - to truly honour who my dc are. To see the motivation that already exists.
Then I have been able to bring in "challenges". We have found the book the Seven Habits of Highly Eeffective Teens to be a good starting point. Also, time out for coffee or frappes and discussion of thoughts and goals and wishes. And we do this repeatedly throughout the year, discussing some of these things.
Bios of inspirational people ( movies, short sketches, books), perhaps of people in the fields in which my sons are interested, have been helpful too - so the teens can see how these people got to where they are, what they had to do, what they overcame.
Also, how old are your teens? Typically, my teens don't seem to mature into challenges and goals and university prep until they are at least 15 .
HTH!
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Living Without School
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Willa
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Mary, I just got through reading a book called The Now Habit (-- true confession -- I am a procrastinator who's trying to improve, and I read self-help books!  )
Anyway, the author said that we often learn to motivate ourselves and establish a "work flow" -- through play! Kind of a surprise to me, to read in an anti-procrastination book; fits in with my own experience, though. The example given was someone who learned by training for a marathon, to push herself past "THE WALL" in her job, as well. "Play" is defined as something you do because you WANT to. My daughter works hard on music but she LOVES doing it, so it is play, not work for her. On the other hand, she does math because it is necessary in order for her to meet her college goals, NOT because she likes it. But she's learning how to set her own schedule and stick to it.
Anyway, you asked for feedback. I worry the same things about my kids too, though they have been homeschooled most of their lives. I don't think we can help worrying, as moms. I worry about my diligent, intrinsically motivated student because he seems TOO diligent to me. I'm worried he feels the world's approval is conditional, or something. I think it's hard not to worry about SOMETHING, when you are a mom.
One thing I read in The Temperament God Gave You about motivation was the concept of "discrepancy". If you think about how we as human beings, adults, get motivated to learn new things, it's usually because we see a gap between where we are now and where we want or need to be to get what we want. When I was a new mom I read reams of books on parenting. Sometimes as parents, if we know about the motivating power of "discrepancy", we can try to give our kids a real life sense of where they may need to go in order to meet their goals.
Maybe if you approached it that way -- trying to give them a "tour" of their future prospects to make it seem real to them -- it would give them a clearer understanding of what they need to do to achieve their goals?? I'm trying to work with my teens on an understanding of the seriousness of their "vocation" and how it takes thought and planning and prayer to discern their unique role in life.
I think that is "goal setting" as Leonie has mentioned before. I wasn't sure if these goal setting talks would work as well with my kids who are more reticent I think than Leonie's, but it really is working. They see I am interested in their future and that I take them seriously and am willing to support them when they feel anxious about the unknown future, and it is helping them deal with it and develop their ideas and vision and commitment.
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momwise
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Mary G. wrote:
| They have white collar dreams with little or no performance to attain those dreams. My son hates manual labor and getting his hands dirty |
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I was thinking of trying to get back to this thread when my Dad recalled a funny story about his oldest brother. It seems my uncle didn't have much ambition as he approached high school graduation. He didn't have plans to continue school or learn a trade. So my Grandpa took him to the steel foundry where he worked and helped him get a summer job. My Dad says he remembers Jack coming home dead tired and explaining that all day long, while he was shoveling coal he would look up through the window and see the Gold Medal flour mill sign and he said he would have given anything to be working over there . After that summer he entered the Navy and became a chef. He was pretty well motivated by then .
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Mary G
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Ladies -- thanks for your input. Leonie and Willa, I've printed out your responses to keep in my journal -- maybe I'll remember your words of wisdom before I blow up at my dear children 
Actually, this has resolved itself a bit anyway -- my 16yos is coming back home for the last half of Junior year and for all of Senior year. He didn't make the grades he had cotracted to do, so we're pulling him home. But he seems so RELIEVED! It's almost as though his sub-conscious was saying the school he was in wasn't good for him -- too many superficial pulls and the loss of himself....
My 14 yod is also going thru a rather tough puberty -- lashing out verbally at all of us; but that too seems to have resolved itself a bit. She knows we love her and are trying to do the best for her -- she also knows it's her education and her decision to do the good or not.....
Gwen -- your story reminds me of one of my brothers (the one a year older than me). He went in the Coast Guard right after high school for a 3 year stint. When he got out, a buddy of his got him into the management trainee job at NCR, with training in Dayton, Ohio. Paul didn't much care for the trainee program or Dayton so he came home and decided he'd go to college. He had to wait three months or so before school started, so he decided to get a job at a fast-food place -- all of us, growing up in SF, had always worked in offices, never fast food -- when they made him wear a polyester uniform and schlep fries -- he decided there and then he was NEVER going to allow himself to do that again! Talk about a motivator for doing well in school!
THANKS so much ladies for sharing your wisdom and thoughts -- it helps more than I can ever tell you.....
BLESSINGS one and all!
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MaryG
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MacBeth
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Leonie wrote:
| Then I have been able to bring in "challenges". We have found the book the Seven Habits of Highly Eeffective Teens to be a good starting point. Also, time out for coffee or frappes and discussion of thoughts and goals and wishes. And we do this repeatedly throughout the year, discussing some of these things. |
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This has always been a big part of our homeschool, too. Especially the frappe part , though not when it is 17 degrees F out!
Thoughts and goals and wishes are forthcoming from some kids, but must be teased out of others. And once they suggest something, it occasionally takes all my strength not to raise an eyebrow at lofty goals when the dishes are left undone, laundry waits to be folded, or someone hasn't cracked a math book in two weeks (I have been anxious to jump into the unschooling and laziness thread, but have had no time). But I must recognize that we all go through different times when we are less motivated about some things. Only one of my children is musically motivated enough to look for a career as a musician. Sometimes I wonder if Trip is motivated about anything, and then I sit back and watch him wire something, and gently remind him that he will need to get a bit more math down if he is seriously considering electrical engineering. And the gentle remind is important, as is the tone of the reminder. Don and I are so different about this. Don likes to put on a serious tone with a hint of threat...I find this very ineffective!  I try (and often fail, I'm sure) to couch the discussion in a dialogue, perhaps suggesting that he take a look at the mathematical demands of an EE text, or try figuring out voltage, wattage, etc. without using algebra. We also discuss the uses of such skills, and the options. If he decides the EE math is too much, he can still become an electrician.
But would he find that challenging enough? Or is the independence of working for himself (as an electrician) rather than for a big company (as an EE) more of a motivator?
Finding the source of a child's interior motivation is not always easy, but exterior motivation rears its ugly head all the time. For Annika, it's finishing so she has free time to read or knit. She is the easiest kid, and is usually well done with any formal work before the quarter is over. And this, I find, causes resentment from the others, rather than motivation. Trip is more motivated when he knows that when he is done he gets to go to his cousins' house. Paul is motivated by money, and is always trying to find a way to turn a profit. Libby is externally motivated by time to practice (this is a grey area, isn't it?) and deadline pressure.
And let them tell you, I hate to use external motivation for anything. I will not bribe or cajole unless I am desperate . Part of my job is to find logical reasons for completing task or goals that the child sets for himself. Unfortunately, not one of them would ever set the goal of cleaning his room for himself.
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MacBeth in NY
Don's wife since '88; "Mom" to the Fab 4
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Mary G
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MacBeth -- thanks for ths glimpse into your homeschool....this too will be cpied and kept in my journal. It's very valuable (and, may I say, wise) advice ! Thanks!
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MaryG
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Cindy
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When I wonder about motiviation, especially for my 15yo who is cautious and not a risk taker- no thoughts yet of college or career-- I take myself back to age 15 and remember what was on my mind.. nothing much! I think the kids grow up a lot between 15 and 20, some at different rates that others. I see how much he has changed just between 12 and 15 and know more are coming.
I also have had to work on a deep acceptance of who he is. He is very different than me, as I was often competitive, for no good reason. He will put forth tremendous effort toward what is important to him. I think many teen may be like this, but the artifial school work has caused them to work for many things they don't really care about. I see this as a good sign, because when he does have an important goal, he will work for it.
I am also trying to see what he is already doing in his life- he is setting goals daily, (in his video games, message boards, contests he sets up with his brother)- and he works to achieve them and takes pride in the result. This is better than any artificial goal I could contrive, I think. And if I encourage it and recognize it, he gains confidence.
MacBeth, I agree that some kids need more mining than other to find their motivations.. maybe they are there but hidden, or shy to be revealed. I hope to help reveal the things important to my boys... bring them into light!- and also give them an idea of what will be needed externally to achieve goals as they get nearer... once they begin to think about careers, etc.
Rambling... hope it makes some sense
Cindy
ds 15, ds 12
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Cindy in Texas
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Mary G
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Cindy, you're definitely making sense - thanks for adding your input!
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MaryG
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Leonie
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Cindy and MacBeth,
Thank you for your words of wisdom.
MacBeth, your dh sounds like mine - he is often tempted to use a threat ( hey, it works in the military, where he is an officer). But it just doesn't cut it at home, and in his heart he knows that. Dialogue, even with a teen who needs *time* to encourage him to talk, is what works best here.
Same with the acceptance you mentioned, Cindy. I find that with my dh and my ds, in order to talk about changes or the "discrepancy" factor that Willa mentioned, I first have to build a climate of acceptance and honour.
Thanks for starting this thread, Mary - and I hope your ds enjoys beng home for schooling again!
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Leonie in Sydney
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Willa
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MacBeth wrote:
| Thoughts and goals and wishes are forthcoming from some kids, but must be teased out of others. And once they suggest something, it occasionally takes all my strength not to raise an eyebrow at lofty goals when the dishes are left undone, laundry waits to be folded, or someone hasn't cracked a math book in two weeks (I have been anxious to jump into the unschooling and laziness thread, but have had no time). |
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For some reason, in this regard it has helped me to read Fr Finn's books which are fictional and also St Therese's autobiography. They show me that a child can "look" immature by my standards and yet be really cooking with several burners by his own standards or even by God's. Like when St Therese cried at everything, during one time in her life. She probably "looked" babyish from outside but it was a fault, not a sin and she was able to grow past that and make it something beautiful for God.
I think lofty goals are a great prerequisite for lofty actions -- perhaps indispensable -- but it takes most people quite a bit of time and experience to express the lofty goals in ALL the areas of their lives. I smile when my video-game-loving younger son tells me earnestly about the "old-fashioned" life he wants to live someday, where he grows his food from scratch and lives without electricity! These dreams do not stop him from enjoying his computer time and processed food and microwave! Yet I realize that this kind of vision plants seeds; he has a counter-pull in his imagination to excessive technology, and that's a GOOD thing.
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Willa
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Willa
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MacBeth wrote:
| And let them tell you, I hate to use external motivation for anything. I will not bribe or cajole unless I am desperate . Part of my job is to find logical reasons for completing task or goals that the child sets for himself. Unfortunately, not one of them would ever set the goal of cleaning his room for himself. |
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MacBeth,
This is a helpful concept, for me...
As an unschooler, you don't avoid external motivation altogether, but you use it as a last resort? You try to tap into their internal motivations, as a first and second resort; going on the assumption that people, including children generally WANT to do the right thing?? That's kind of how we do parenting, around here -- I could see how it would work with academics, as well. But please comment if I have misunderstood what you are saying
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Willa
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MacBeth
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WJFR wrote:
This is a helpful concept, for me...
As an unschooler, you don't avoid external motivation altogether, but you use it as a last resort? |
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I avoid external motivators as often as possible, Willa. Academically, this is not too much of an issue (from time to time there are glitches); it is a bigger issue with housework. Oh, and it is clearly genetic.
WJFR wrote:
| You try to tap into their internal motivations, as a first and second resort; going on the assumption that people, including children generally WANT to do the right thing?? That's kind of how we do parenting, around here -- I could see how it would work with academics, as well. But please comment if I have misunderstood what you are saying |
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That's it. I know we have had recent discussion on the board here about the fallen nature of children (and our fallen nature as well) and the CM method. Recently, as if to reinforce this thought, I heard a homily where the priest basically accused the kids (homeschoolers' Mass) of avoiding academics as if studying and lessons were the most likely and natural thing to avoid! But I think we are all fallen, each in his own way. It annoys me to hear lectures or homilies about how we have to do our schoolwork, though none of us likes it, and it's such a chore. Academic tedium is not my experience at all. Now if someone would go on about what a nightmare it is for me to convince the kids that a clean house is for the greater good, I could really relate!
So, I guess that answer is yes, this method does work with academics...sometimes, for some people. For the most part, my kids enjoy academics, but they loathe housework. Other kids may be neat and clean, but do the least amount of school work possible to pass. Some kids probably dislike both, but find joy in other places.
It helps, I think, if the parent and the kids have the same flaw, because there is some understanding. I know what it feels like to hear mom yelling about my room, and I understand the despair (I do not think despair is too strong a word) the kids feel as they look around the room, not knowing where to begin the cleaning process. But I also know what a joy it is to learn new things, to find my academic strengths, to accomplish a goal I set for myself (even if it is something small, like the nearly monthly newsletter I started last January ). The kids all take the same joy in learning new things (and they were also offended by the priest's insistence that academics are a chore).
External motivation is often the only thing that works for me personally in the housekeeping arena; if things are not done, Don gets--er--upset, and the peace of our little academy is disrupted. Sure, I know that I can find things better, have less clutter, won't trip over things, etc. if the room is clean, but frankly, I could not care less. But my motivation becomes clear if I envision the row if I don't get it done!
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MacBeth in NY
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ALmom
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I think the goal setting you guys are talking about is a joint venture with guidance and listening being important aspects.
Ie - 11 yo son started expressing interest in airplanes, read a book about flying, found out how much it would cost to get a Cesna and asked about flying lessons. We helped him find the flying school and get the information. He is saving his money for when he is 14 and can take lessons. In the meantime, I mentioned that flying requires a lot of math and science -suddenly he was doing twice the math. Spelling, on the other hand, is so bad that spell check wouldn't even begin to guess what he is trying to say. He is not necessarily motivated to learn spelling because he doesn't have a lot of confidence here. Does that mean we neglect spelling. I don't think so because then he never gets enough confidence. We work on it a little at a time - very matter of factly with lots of successes. That is my job as a parent (I don't worry over much about spelling with other dc - but this dc it is obviously needed to open up other areas for him that will interfere with his ability to express himself).
dd in high school is a music lover. Left entirely to her own devices, she would have done nothing much but music from morning to night. No real learning occurs when you are cramming to do last minute tweeks to a transcript in order to make it into college. It was our job to make sure options were open by providing a minimal structure. Actually what we found out was that this dd relaxed once we went with a set plan and stuck to it - because her motivation was to have the transcript to get into college and the background to pass courses so she'd have most of her time for practice. There were years we bumbled around thinking we had to make things interesting enough for her to be wowed by math and history and science. We could have saved all of us agony by having a relaxed, steady expectation of certain level of work in these areas. The dd has very strong internal motivation for her own reasons - I did not hold out grades as academic bribery. It was like an insurance policy to her that she wasn't slacking on academics because she wanted to play every instrument. She is more relaxed this year than ever before - and we are following a set program - substituting some coop classes for Kolbe but otherwise following exactly what is on the Kolbe plan.
Another dd is more reticent - but diligent once she had a general idea of where to go. She asked for plans, we provided them but have to watch carefully as this dc is a very creative learner and we don't want to squelch this. If she seems to be spending too much time at desk or seems to have a certain look about her, it is my job to recognize something is amiss and talk with her (is this like Leonie's coffee time). We then tweek the plans by mutual agreement. She will share with me things like "I'll learn this better if I can just take notes and think about it" and I am happy to go with this as I know this really does work best for this dc. I want her to have the free time she needs to think and create.
Am I motivating them or just drawing from what is there. I don't really know. I think providing some basic structure in the older grades have helped dc direct their own learning. I have required certain things like science with this 14 yo dd. It was a dry text. We both acknowledged that - but she also knew and understood that we really wanted her to do it anyways as she had not done any science up to this point and she needs to have a science vocabulary. Now that she is 3 months into the book, she has actually liked it and said she is learning from it. Her mind is taking the dry text and applying it to other stuff she reads/sees. But she needed the text and would not have chosen to do it on her own.
It was being very calm and matter of fact about it - and finding something that was doable without undo stress or dependence on us that really made the difference. We had much more trouble when we were frantically trying to find the perfect something that would finally help our oldest become passionate about something she could care less about. Just because she didn't particularly like it, she still needed some level of competence in it. She could see and accept that - and in the process we can even use less than perfect programs and make wonderful progress.
Hope this helps.
Janet
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Willa
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ALmom wrote:
| There were years we bumbled around thinking we had to make things interesting enough for her to be wowed by math and history and science. We could have saved all of us agony by having a relaxed, steady expectation of certain level of work in these areas. The dd has very strong internal motivation for her own reasons - I did not hold out grades as academic bribery. It was like an insurance policy to her that she wasn't slacking on academics because she wanted to play every instrument. |
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This is similar to something I could have written. I got so worn out in earlier years trying to make everything "fun" and trying to seize on the kids' interests and develop them into something that "looked" academic. So it was great for me to read where Charlotte Mason says that it isn't necessary to do this. That the intrinsic value of the subject, plus having short lessons and high-quality "living" books and resources, is enough. She said that my former method puts too much work on the teacher and doesn't let the child develop his own motivation and learn to make his own connections.
Not all kids will like all subjects, and we parents aren't responsible for being like gods, "compelling" them to find delight in everything. My kids actually resent that, a bit.
I'm reading unschooling books in a different way, now, and I see that it's not all about fun and games. Unschoolers DO think about their future; it's not a just a matter of "delight-directed", doing whatever one cares to at the moment, but a matter of taking personal ownership of one's learning, as much as possible, even from an early age. Also of taking childrens' learning seriously, even at a young age, not giving them twaddly patronizing material or busywork, but giving them real, interesting, worthwhile academic things to mentally chew on and digest.
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Willa
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Dec 27 2005 at 3:43pm | IP Logged
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I am reading this thread with great interest and really pondering your words.
My oldest, as most of you know, is 14 and in school (a freshman) this year after homeschooling through 8th grade. He is happy as a lark. His classes don't thrill him, and certainly don't challenge him. But he can check off the boxes and bring home "A's" and feel like he has done his job.
I have never found anything to motivate him. He was never the kid to find and interest and want to learn all about it. Other than rock music, video games, weight-lifting and girls, he seems to have no genuine interests. He is more than happy to be mediocre. I think about bringing him home next year, but my dh does not support that idea and I am not sure that I am up to the challenge. He is happy in school and will be difficult if I pull him out.
I want so much for him, but he is not in a mood to hear much of what I say.  So, what do you do with the kid who seems to care about nothing?
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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Cindy
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| Posted: Dec 27 2005 at 4:32pm | IP Logged
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Leonie wrote:
Same with the acceptance you mentioned, Cindy. I find that with my dh and my ds, in order to talk about changes or the "discrepancy" factor that Willa mentioned, I first have to build a climate of acceptance and honour.
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Leonie-- Ross Campbell agrees with you.
I was just re-reading How to Really Love Your Teenager and the author was talking about challenging our teens. He said that before we can challenge or suggest change, we have to make sure they have a firm understanding of our acceptance of them.. our deep and real acceptance of who they are (warts and all) as the people they truly are.
If they think we are constantly out to change and improve, they will resist and run. (and probably hide, too)
I have to re-read this every so often.
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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Leonie
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| Posted: Dec 28 2005 at 6:36pm | IP Logged
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teachingmyown wrote:
I am reading this thread with great interest and really pondering your words.
Other than rock music, video games, weight-lifting and girls, he seems to have no genuine interests. He is more than happy to be mediocre.
I want so much for him, but he is not in a mood to hear much of what I say. So, what do you do with the kid who seems to care about nothing? |
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Molly, I think a good thing here is to listen to your heart and to your dh.
One of my sons is going through some problems right now. Here is what I am doing - it is so much easier to write these than to do them -
1. Work on acceptance and honour
2.Pray and pray again
3.Give it time and patience
WRT to your ds's interest in weight lifting - who know, perhaps he'll end up being a personal trainer or owning/managing a gym?
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Cindy
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| Posted: Dec 28 2005 at 7:02pm | IP Logged
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I must jump in here and tell you something that might relate.. esp given Leonie's comment about the potential gym owner.
My sons (much to my early chagrin) are not into sports. I tried and tried (my dh and I both enjoy them) but they didn't.
About 4 years ago we ran into this awesome tennis teacher and the boys love him. He motivates, diciplines, with a dry sense of humor my boys love. Today I was especially proud as my 15yos was really driving the ball with top spin and the coach was calling my attention to it. (proud mama grin!)
Anyway, finally got a bit of his life story. He and his brother grew up loving tennis. HIs brother turend out to be in the top 100 players in teh US and played against Mcenroe and others.
Our coach did not.. but loved it so much that after high school began teaching and 'never looked back'. He still loves it. He makes very little money, but loves his work.
He has also been a good conversation piece for me and my boys... about doing what you love vs. looking for the money.
I have a strong suspision that our coach didn't do well in school.. he may be a little ADD or whatever.. and it works much to his advantage in his tennis lessons. He is quick, perceptive, always moving onto the next thing.
In a nutshell, he found his niche and is very happy. His brother btw got a tennis scholarship to Rice u (prestigious) and now is also a tennis pro in another city.
Different roads... same destination.
Don't know how much this applies. but only to say that we don't know the future for our kids and passions can be found in many areas..
Cindy
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Motivating the Teens
