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Cay Gibson
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Oh, wow, I could write a book. I don't even know where to begin. I could also pluck quotes from each of your posts to address but I'm not sure I have time today. Family's coming...
We've run the gamut here. We've hsed a child and allowed him to go to high school for sports. He opted to come back home his last two years. We allowed our oldest dd to attend high school through out and she graduated summa cum laude and worked very hard and persistantly to get that honor. She's a natural student.
Our middle child is perfectly content at home. Our hs sports team and co-op have given him the spark, the motivation, and the nudge he needs.
I have to say that I basically unschooled my oldest those last two years of high school. I gave him Apologia for science, the learning company for math and a private tutor for Geometry, and he watched the History Channel and Discovery extensively. I also had a carefully thought out reading list for him, books I thought would speak to him and capture his interest.
He spent most of his time in the shop building stuff. He got a part-time job his senior year which taught him self-discipline and responsibility.
Yes, he lost out on TOPS (which pays one's education fully in the state of LA), so I guess I could say he was not prepared adequately in high school  but it isn't that I didn't try. I'm not one to look into the past with despair. I figure he lived and he learned. He learned a harder lesson but he hasn't looked into the past with despair either. He has gone forward and is paying for his college education. Of all my children he's probably the hardest worker.
I think we need to make sure these children know that they will be held accountable before God for using the mind and matter He equipped them with.
There is no perfect answer...no perfect call...no perfect situation...no perfect child...no perfect parent.
You make the best call you can at that moment and move forward. In about a year or so you'll know what God's will was for your child.
I think it's a false notion that one should go immediately into college after the high school years, but that's the way our society works. Courtesy of Jenn M., I've told my children that this is the only time in their lives they'll be allowed to focus on getting that education without outside commits and responsibilities (ie: having a family and providing for them). So get it now.
Elizabeth, you are totally correct about college being all about reading and writing. Both my older children would should "Amen!" (or something a little less stellar  ). This past semester found them consumed with writing...not only in their English classes but all other classes as well.
College is all about being able to express yourself and express yourself well. As my dd had high school teachers to work with her and my ds didn't care to read or write, I found myself working more with them this past semester than we ever did during their high school years. It was night after night of writing and editing and expressing. And my son discovered he's pretty good at it. And they both realized that writing is hard work and not for the weak of mind.
Like I said, I could write a book about my experience but I have no desire to do so. We've run the gamut and it's been an educate for me as well as for them.
My children aren't perfect but neither am I. We just haven't had the problems that most people associate with schools and the product that comes from them.
I do want to add quickly because dh just walked in the door with a bag of potatoes that I need to peel and cook for the potato salad to bring to my sil's...Kayleigh came home after her last finals last week and told me in a befundled way that "you know what, Mom, high school grades really don't matter...other than being able to get a scholarship, high school grades don't mean a thing."
I think that speaks a lot about our schools' training ground that a child looks back and realizes, "all that work and all those grades really don't mean a thing now."
Of course I believe there's a valuable lesson in training and teaching them to work hard but it's the end result that matters and we all get there via different paths and ways and training. Which way is best? It's different for each of us and it's more different for each of our children.
But I think my dd's point was that the stress the schools put on grades is, overall, a joke. You can go into college with an average training, do your very best, and do spectacular.
Case in point...both my children...the cumma sum laude graduate and the boy who is out in the marsh with his boat and his dog at this very moment) both had all A's and only one B at the end of the semester.
If your child has a focus, I think he's already half-way there.
And I have written half the book... 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: Dec 20 2008 at 9:25am | IP Logged
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Bridget wrote:
On the other hand. God designed this kid. If soccer doesn't work out, as a man, he will make plan B and take ownership of it. Paddy will find his way. |
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Well, there you go. Bridget sums up my book-form reply very nicely...and in a fraction of the time. 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Bridget
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But my summary is only a theory, your post puts the meat and potatoes in it. Thanks be to God for parents who go before us and are willing to share their experiences!
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Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Sarah
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I think the situation is particularly awkward with boys at these ages. God made them to need constant physical activity and to be in training for manhood. Unfortunately, our society is geared towards hours of deskwork  in the constant presence of women  instead. Homeschooling doesn't fix these problems well unless Dad is home a lot and there are many opportunities at home for labor alongside dad. Sending a boy out to do lots of labor without the cameraderie and companionship of dad or older brothers is more like isolation than training for manhood. |
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This is such a good point. I don't think we can underestimate the importance of dad in a boy's education to be a man. I hope I didn't make it sound like I was advocating sending a boy out for hours alone with a shovel (I guess it did sound that way ). My boys only work when dad is home (in fact I can't get them to do it unless dad calls the sons out for work. . .together) and they work side by side on whatever the project may be. The trench is for my older son to dig and for the duration he wants to and with as many breaks as he needs and dad is right there with him doing the electrical work. That's one reason that it is taking so long, its only done when dad can be there, too. Thanks for pointing that out! Gosh, that came across wrong.
Another dad idea that is helping motivation around here is to have dad reading the same book as the son is reading. I think with homeschooling a kid can feel like an island. It sometimes feel better when someone is reading the same book you are reading. . .like they are entering the world you are venturing into and that you have a companion for the "journey" into the book. There is a little natural competition that is being sparked when ds wants to know what chapter dad is on. Furthermore, every book seems to be only about fighting (good fighting), boys, and hardship, danger, etc. My ds will have no part of a book that is fluffy and that is fine by me. Uncontrived and natural discussions seem to naturally flow from the books and then sometimes not really any discussing at all just a mutual, "Yep, that was a good book." Men don't seem to talk, talk, talk like women do. At first I asked dh privately, aren't you going to have a book discussion with ds? His response was, "About what? We both said we liked the book, isn't that enough? There isn't really anything to discuss." I guess I won't get involved because it seems to be male style here (fewer words than we use) and I guess that is just fine by me. If I try to horn in I may ruin their whole little book "club." Ds sees dad with the book and knows his dad is caring about what is on those pages enough to read them himself. Also, the competition thing ("what page are you on?") is motivating. Obviously, the books dh are reading are below his reading level as an adult, they are geared to ds' level.
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missionfamily
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I think the encouragement that come what may, Paddy will find his way and make the most of it is probably the best counsel for mom right now.
However, from a philosophical point of view, I do think in the high school years, there is a limited amount of time that one can strew and offer choices and wait on the child to find his own motivation. If after the first year, it doesn't seem like that will happen for this child, and you as a parent feel insistent he/she needs to keep the college door open, then you are left with the choice to enforce work at home in some way, or enroll that child in school.
I think it's heartbreaking for us to build such an amazing early and middle education for a child and find we come out at the other end with a learner who is not self-motivated and not willing to read. We have to wonder how this could possibly have happened.
THat is when the advice to remember that this child was designed by God serves us well. He is the author of this child's life and has entrusted his moral, spiritual, and in some cases educational upbringing to us. BUt we have to go where HE leads, we don't get to design the path.
When God puts a unique gift in a child, like athleticism or musical talent, it sometimes overrides all other motivations...if that child would be content to just read and report, we might be able to live with that (I'm thinking of Macbeth's Libby here), but if not, it may just be that we have to determine a plan B for this child earlier than he's ready to come up with it on his own. Fourteen is awfully early for a boy to even cognitively gauge the long-term effects of the choices he is making today. It falls on our shoulders to lead, guide, and if necessary, enforce a plan that safeguards his future until he reaches the maturity to decide for himself.
I think in eighth grade, you may have another year or so to work with...to watch closely and gauge, to offer and re-offer choices, and to discuss the future, but after that, I think it becomes to time to make the necessary decisions to protect this child from choices he can't even understand the levity of at this point.
That's my two (and a half, it seems) cents...great counsel from someone who's oldest child is ten right  .
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Colleen
dh Greg
mom to Quinn,Gabriel, Brendan,Evan, Kolbe, and sweet St. Bryce
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MarilynW
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Bridget wrote:
| But my summary is only a theory, your post puts the meat and potatoes in it. Thanks be to God for parents who go before us and are willing to share their experiences! |
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Bridget- I always feel a little envious of you - it seems to me that you have a wonderful homeschool community - your teenagers seem to have a lot of good friends - I am not sure if you have a successful coop? We live in an area where very few homeschool their boys through high school (at least Catholic homeschoolers). I wonder how much of a difference this makes?
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Bridget
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Marilyn, what we have here is a homeschool enrichment program with professional tutors. Several are PHDs. The academics are rigorous, there is plenty of lively Socratic discussion and it is devoutly Catholic. My older kids are thriving in it.
They do have plenty of opportunities for a rich social life and extra activities because of this community.
The funny thing is that my oldest has a definite interest in being a farmer and seems to be well suited for it, even though he is certainly an intellectual.
All we can do is our best for our kids and trust that God is helping us provide what THIS kid needs to fulfill God's plan for him.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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Bookswithtea
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MarilynW wrote:
| We live in an area where very few homeschool their boys through high school (at least Catholic homeschoolers). I wonder how much of a difference this makes? |
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It makes a *huge* difference.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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Sarah wrote:
I hope I didn't make it sound like I was advocating sending a boy out for hours alone with a shovel (I guess it did sound that way ). |
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I wasn't thinking of anyone's posts in particular. I was thinking about a parenting book someone gave me once that made this point. Sorry for the confusion. 
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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missionfamily
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Sarah--COuld you pm some of the books your ds and dh are reading together...my ds is finally starting to read again, but I think I was offering him things too girly...but I have no frame of reference for the type of books you are referring to...and he needs them to have any interest whatsoever.
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Colleen
dh Greg
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Betsy
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On the topic of writing (or communication in general)......it is what College is about AND life in our modern world.
I never really learned to write well. Why? I don't know? However I did get all A's in Middle School and High School and graduate with an engineering degree with honors. HOWEVER, I was at a severe disadvantage in college with my poor writing skills but it was more of a disadvantage in the working world and EVEN MORE of a disadvantage in my life now.
I wish that someone would have demanded me to write better. To some degree, if you can write and verbally communicate well you can really do almost anything. It is that important.
I don't think that there is a more advantageous place to receive this skill (i.e. home or school), but it is a skill the is very much needed whether it is learned kicking and screaming or naturally.
Betsy
P.S. Please, don't correct my grammar/spelling to harshly.
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Cay Gibson
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Bookswithtea wrote:
MarilynW wrote:
| We live in an area where very few homeschool their boys through high school (at least Catholic homeschoolers). I wonder how much of a difference this makes? |
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It makes a *huge* difference. |
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I'll third this.
We've had a Catholic co-op off and on since we began hsing. My oldest son was much the loner and never cared for the classes. He realizes and will say that he is prime hs material. But our group was in the beginning stages and it took a lot of trial and error to get fully off the ground.
We were bumblers... 
Some of us even went with the Protestant co-op for two years because our Catholic group wasn't doing anything during that time. I think we were all kind of burnt out. These were basic subjects being taught nad you could pick and choose. Everyone was very nice and there was never any religious overtures yet we were all Christians which made it nice.
Then this past year one of our veteran hs moms was in touch with a friend of Bridget's and mine who has moved back up north and is involved in a very professional and Catholic co-op and our Catholic group took their handbook and website (which I can't find at the moment) and duplicated it on a smaller scale.
We also have Brent Zeringue of Iron Will Enterprises and founder of KEPHA who began doing high school level classes for hsers once a week in Lafayette a few years ago. It's pricey and Lafayette is an hour and a half away from us so we haven't done it. But there is talk and a strong possibility of him coming to Lake Charles to do the classes once a week next year. The families that attend these classes have only great things to say about them...especially regarding their boys. Seems Brent follows St. John Bosco's teaching methods. He expects much from the children and they do indeed deliver.
If we can scratch the finances together, Garrett will attend next year.
Sorry...I think I've trailed away from Elizabeth's question...
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Cay Gibson
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I meant to add that I believe had we had the co-op structure and organized sports team we have today...some ten years in the making...my older two would have been perfectly happy remaining hsed and I would have felt I was sending them out into the world as prepared as they were capable of being.
I've heard other parents in our group say the same thing.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Well, maybe we should move it, but I'm specifically interested in high school. I think it's totally possible in the early years. BTDT with a child who could not read or write. But this is a teen who will not and I think that's very different. |
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Thinking about this some more through my own filter, Elizabeth --
Sean is 15 and went to high school because he wanted to play higher-level football and this is the only way you can do it in our state.
He is a very concrete, practical kid. His interests are all centered around football. He looks upon his academics as the hoops he has to jump through to keep playing. His GPA is presently acceptable, not awesome. He does work hard in his concrete, activity-oriented way. I've learned a lot about being involved in his academics without having the direct responsibility; it's been interesting.
Suppose my Sean COULD play varsity level football and still homeschool, and he wasn't interested in academic work? I think I would "make" him do a minimum that he could build on, but not kill myself to make him, if you know what I mean. To some extent high schoolers do have ownership; they are not capable of running their own lives but certainly they are capable of having a hand in how their lives are going.
I certainly would talk it over with his dad, as I'm sure you've done. One of the things on the table would be whether he would be allowed to keep playing sports if he didn't agree to get through at least the minimum of academics. By minimum I really mean minimum -- math and some reading across the subjects and perhaps a bit of a foreign language -- the things that are hard to catch up on quickly later on.
See, Sean is going to high school for football, and for no other reason. Otherwise we'd be muddling through his high school academics at home as we did for all three of his older siblings. All the same, clearly, athletics are a means to an end; for him to get a scholarship if possible but even if not, to open doors in his future, developmentally and occupationally, not close down doors too soon.
So in that way sports are supplemental to academics and both are supplemental to his developmental process.
None of this sounds very unschooly. You know my kids are unschooled in the way Michael was. They got a lot of freedom and a lot of support and encouragement and a certain amount of direct guidance. To me, if Sean didn't see the importance of minimal schoolwork as a preparation for life, the guidance bit would come in strongly.
But it would be guidance -- not compulsion. Say Sean decided school was too difficult and football wasn't worth the efffort, and he wanted to homeschool again. Obviously I would do my best to make sure he got a decent education at home, but at 15 there would be a limit to what I could do if he were dragging his heels. I myself was not a good student in high school. It's not the end of the world; it makes life harder in some ways in one's future life but in our country there are lots of opportunities for late starters IF their motivation clicks in. At any rate, kids that age do need to realize it's up to them to start figuring out how to run their lives; to me that's one of the prime agendas of the high school years.
As a parent of a talented athlete I'd just want to make sure he understood as clearly as possible that though there are many windows for success in the world, there's really only one door into elite athletics and it only is open for a few years of ones' life. It seems like a sort of responsibility to be a very talented athlete; a gift that needs to be used well and wisely. It is also a gift that doesn't stay with you permanently; your elite days are over long before you are even well into middle age. So I'd have him talk to coaches, family members, priests, whoever in my circle who could help him get a clear perspective on his life goals.
I'd also look for underlying causes -- emotional ones -- is he feeling expectation pressures, or whatever. One year Sean did not play youth football. His coaches were thrilled about his talent, but he was being typecast as a wide receiver and it turned out he REALLY did not want to be in that role. So he sat out for a year. I worried about it and thought he was closing doors too soon. But once he was allowed to move towards his personal goals again he got his motivation and drive back. So sometimes there is something underlying like that, that accounts for the lack of motivation.
You can tell I've been thinking about this type of thing, too.....
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Willa
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Take Up and Read
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Angel
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Hi Elizabeth. My name is Andrew Boord, I am Angela's husband. I hope it is OK if a male posts -- this might be a first.
Angela told me about your 14 year old son. Boy, did that bring back memories! I apologize, but I actually chuckled. I thought I would post and offer some support. I was exactly like your son, except for me it was baseball. I played or conditioned basically year round and it was essentially the center pivot of my entire being. From 12-18 I was much smarter than I am today. I had figured out that if I went to school at least half the day, got C's, and minimized my trips to the principal's office then I could play ball. I also was blessed to have one of those coaches who put the fear of God in anyone causing problems at school. As you fully understand, my poor mother was not amused. But like I said, I was much smarter than her for several years running.
I now better understand that my mother was undermining my life plan. She would bring home biographies on baseball players, books on strategy, pitching technique, baseball history, etc. -- and I would read. She would buy me baseball cards -- and I would read some more and pick up some statistics. She would suggest term papers on subjects of interest to every athlete. I remember doing my senior paper about steriods. If nothing else it helped me make the right decision.
By the time I reached college I was out of baseball.
(I quit growing early, so I lost a lot of my advantage over the other kids.) I had no idea what to do with my life as I had never contemplated anything else, but I figured I should at least go to the big state college and then figure it out from there. Between my minimalistic efforts and my mother's meddling I had decent enough grades to get in. From there I met a nice Catholic girl (well sort of ) and the rest is history.
I wanted to let you know that boys like us grow up. His skills, not athletic skills, but stuff like the ability to focus on a task and competitive drive, will be a huge advantage for him. Your son is also blessed to grow up in a good Catholic home, which will serve him well. So hang in there.
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Angela
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guitarnan
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I am very interested in this thread, not for my son but for my daughter. She has gone from a beginner to a preliminary champion Irish step dancer in just two years of competition. Dance is her life. School is an annoying inconvenience (she is almost 11). As she also loves to cook, she is kicking around the idea of becoming a chef (better than joining Riverdance at 16...at least for me...).
She really focuses on the things that will improve her chances of 1) dancing more and 2) becoming a chef. She is studying Spanish and French because they are useful for a culinary arts career. (!) Math and writing are annoying inconveniences - even though I have pointed out how useful they are when owning a restaurant or catering company.
It took me a while - a couple of years - to see beneath my daughter's Little Miss Social facade and discover that she is totally, completely driven when it comes to dance. All things related to dance get tons of attention. Cooking things do, too. Everything else (unless it relates to becoming the next Giada or Rachael) is pretty much tossed into the "boring" box.
We are currently doing what I consider to be a bare bones curriculum for her - math, English/writing, religion, Spanish, some French, some (kitchen) science and some social studies, plus lots of dance and some piano. As of 25 December, tin whistle joins the list. (My husband is going to kill me!) We are part of a co-op, where class topics change ever semester.
While I lack my daughter's talent, I completely get her drive - mine was there in spades but it was all about academics. I understand how focused she is on her personal goals. Still, I try hard to make sure we hit the academic basics every day, but I can see that this will get harder as she grows older, makes the performance troupe, etc.
This thread is very helpful (thanks, Andrew, for your fatherly insights!). I am thankful for everyone's input and suggestions.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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LisaR
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Sarah wrote:
| So don't think just because kids are enrolled in school they are getting anything out of it.Lisa, your son sounds great so I do not mean to be referring to him in any way! Its difficult to fake your way through homeschooling because its just you with no one to hide behind. |
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I totally "get" what you are saying and I think it is a very important topic.I'm only using my son as an example because it is my only personal experience so far, besides my own .
I know that Joe is not doing the above mentioned things because I know how he studies and he goes over his homework with us every night. then, the next day, his grades are updated on the website, and sure enough, the ones he insisted were right (that I questioned) are marked wrong, he has gotten the gamut of grades from A+ in Honors classes to a D+ in Spanish.
But mostly I know he is getting alot from High School because he is so open and shares so much with us about what he is learning. He has that spark, you know?
He loves to bring in to school books or a Pop. Mechanics article or online article to add to a classroom discussion.
And, the other great thing about mostly male teachers is that there is plenty of movement in the school! not alot of solid desk time. they move from labs, to on top of their desks, to outdoors, etc...
My fear honestly of homeschooling though high school is that I will fake it through, you know??
I think one could let lots of things slide at home, just like at school.
my littles need me, and it is easy to think my oldest can handle things on their own. I'm embarassed to say that I NEED the structure, too. I was just chatting with my 7th grade ds and did not even know what lesson he was in in his math, or even what he was reading!
I've spoken with a few local moms who regretted letting their teens sort of "self-school", but I think that my personality would fall into this category.
I can't sit for a block of time and teach higher level math, etc. I might have ADHD, I might just know that my true love is teaching the younger years....?
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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Bridget
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| Posted: Dec 20 2008 at 8:02pm | IP Logged
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Getting back to the thought of unschooling high school with a child who doesn't want to read or write... Angela's husband was very reassuring I think. It sounds like his mom was homeschooling ahead of her time. 
I wonder if Elizabeth's reluctant academic could take some soccer ideas and turn them into learning. Maybe he could write a soccer newsletter with soccer tips and news. It could be published online or as a blog. Blog his own soccer plans and the efforts and steps he must take to make them reality. Maybe he could run a little neighborhood soccer camp. Chart his favorite team as they travel and sneak in some geography and history there, according to the region they are playing in...
Anything that gets him to articulate his thoughts and organize ideas will help him in any field.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
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LisaR
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| Posted: Dec 20 2008 at 8:03pm | IP Logged
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Angel wrote:
but stuff like the ability to focus on a task and competitive drive, will be a huge advantage for him.
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YES!! this is EXACTLY what my dh has mentioned repeatedly!! This is where for our family, we see a benefit to school for High School, and perhaps why co-op is so important to us.
My 3rd ds is very talented in soccer. he is 9 and is playing 12-13 y/o age bracket travel, and trains year round. He might very well get enough of this competitiveness through daily sports, and I might even see how homeschooling is a benefit for him down the road (more well rested for 2-3 hour trainings, as opposed to going to training after a full day of school)
but if it was a sport that he could only play through school, like Willa mentioned with football, well???
I can let him have down time and get ready leisurely (well, most of the time ) for practice or games as opposed to rushing from school, changing at the center, etc...
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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| Posted: Dec 20 2008 at 8:14pm | IP Logged
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Bridget wrote:
| Getting back to the thought of unschooling high school with a child who doesn't want to read or write... |
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I know this makes me veer into philosphy of Ed too much. What does a unschooling high school look like? what are non-negotiables (parameters set by parents with regards to education) and what are child led at this age?
what is the balance?
__________________
Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Unschooling High School
