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Bookswithtea
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Elizabeth wrote:
Here's a little more detail:
He's had an extended no school at all time for almost a year. So it's not that he's burned out on school.
He's sees absolutely no point in college at all, even to play soccer there.
He's exhausting me. I feel like I'm "dragging" him through anything unrelated to soccer.
It might be that this is all temporary and very much related to his age. And it might be that I just need to ignore it for awhile until he figures out that he really needs a Plan B in case professional soccer doesn't work out and that professional soccer players would do well to be at least a little educated (so much for my grandiose dreams of being well read). It sounds like some of you have faced/are facing the same kind of things in your homes. |
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I'm contacting you privately, Elizabeth...
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Angel
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Elizabeth, I wonder if there isn't some middle road you could take -- a minimum level of work you could require without going totally "traditional".
My oldest is only 12, so we're only at the brink of teenagerhood right now. But we've had to negotiate a sort of rocky path through child-led learning to this point. I have found myself sitting down to talk to him, usually about math, and saying, "Look, it's my job to prepare you to be able to do whatever it is God wants you to do with your life. If God wants you to do something that involves not going to college, that's fine. But I don't want you to wake up at 18 or 19 and think, 'I am supposed to be such-and-such which will involve a college degree (or more)' and have to work your own way through 6 years of math that you didn't do while you were at home."
As I write this, I'm worried this makes it sound as if I think that I really can prepare him for EVERYTHING he might want to do when he's older, and of course, I can't. But basically, I do try to let him know that it's my job to prepare him to be able to go to college *if he wants to when he graduates*. Now, how this will work as he gets older, I have no idea so I am *sure* you'll have to take this with a grain of salt. But as I look ahead to high school for this child... I know that he does need a modicum of externally imposed structure because left to himself he'll simply avoid much of what he finds difficult (or pointless) and then he'll be bored and unchallenged and that's not good for anyone. He does seem happier when I require SOME things but not TOO many things... it's walking that line that can be difficult. 
Anyway, just throwing it out there as another approach... and also, I wonder if he's thought about what he will do after he's done playing soccer? (Ok, so that was probably a dumb question... I know that when I was 14 the farthest I could think was 28 and THAT seemed ANCIENT...  )
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Cay Gibson
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Elizabeth,
I know you don't do co-op but our new co-op was started this year specifically for the high school age...specifically because of these reasons.
Quite honestly, the classes help motivate the older students.
We've also included elementary classes because there are so many siblings...of course. 
But the high schoolers are our main focus and they are offered the core courses taken from the MODG curriculum.
So what do you do if you don't do co-op or don't have co-op offered?
Our co-op classes are only on Mondays. During this day the teachers go through a week of lesson plans in an hour to 1 1/2 hours intervals. They hit on the high points and the children are assigned homework but if they go home and complete the work that day or the next they are done for the week. Garrett (he's 15) often waits until Sunday night to do his assignments.
The rest of the week I give him playaway digitals from the library to listen to and he does one (sometimes two) math lesson of Teaching Textbooks. That's all I assign him. As long as he's listening to a playaway book at some point during the day, doing at least one lesson of math, and watching some History/Discovery Channels he doesn't hear me harp about his schooling...until Sunday night when I ask if he's ready for co-op the next day.
He is also a news junkie so he watches a lot of news and sports. So I figure he's up on current events.
The rest of the time he is free to text friends, email friends, mess with his Facebook, shoot hoops, workout, and dream about all things sports.
Is there any adult or any older boy who could keep him focused on Monday mornings to cover a week of Grammar? If you use TT for math you wouldn't have to worry about math.
Just some thoughts from a very low-key mom who has a 15-year old boy consumed with all things sports related.
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LisaR
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Our oldest ds LOVES to read, and always has. However, I feel that my mistake was in thinking that all of this reading that he was doing would translate into a "natural" writer. I'm grateful that all of the kids so far really enjoy books and could read for hours, but have I "let them" at the expense of important lessons being missed?
Now that oldest is in Catholic High School sports seems to motivate him to do well in school. BUT, he is recognizing that his career in Football or Wrestling will most likely end in Div 3 college if he's lucky?
So, he is wanting to get into Robotics Club, engineering stuff, but then that would mean he would have to at this young age drop out of sports. (time conflicts)
With our 12 y/o I am working hard with Daily Grams, and more structure, more "school at home" , because I want him to be more comfortable with writing and grammar and spelling usage, deadlines, etc before institutional school. (whether it be HS or College)
I struggle with, and have for awhile, the ideals and beauty of homeschooling (flexibility, child led learning/interests, etc) with the reality and preparing them for the "real world" (the rigors of college, standardized testing, etc)
and, how long do we wait for a child to figure out for themselves that they need a plan B, and when do we step in and start laying boundaries, goals and deadlines for them, even if it seems pointless or sheer drudgery for them?
too many questions! I'm sorry!
praying for your discernment, Elizabeth!
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LisaR
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PS, a solid co-op has really saved me from feeling like a failure once my kids hit age 11/12 or so. I do so like that they are learning important subjects once a week in a structured environment, and have to answer to classroom rules different than our home, tests, etc.
I've always been delegated to fairly low key jobs like nursery , or this year I teach 4 and 5's (and maria, the "baby" of the class!) with 2 other moms- very montessori-ish and seasonal stuff...
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missionfamily
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I think there are some great ideas i nthis thread, but I'm still wodnering about the philosophical nature of ELizabeth's question...it intrigues me...
Is it possible to successfully school at home a child who is beyond reluctant to read and write...and is catering to him through unschooling the best answer for that child? And is it possible to give such a child a college preparatory education?
I'd love to know more about your thoughts on these questions, as with five boys, I'm sure to come across the same dilemma soon enough.
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Helen
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missionfamily wrote:
Is it possible to successfully school at home a child who is beyond reluctant to read and write...and is catering to him through unschooling the best answer for that child? And is it possible to give such a child a college preparatory education?
I'd love to know more about your thoughts on these questions, as with five boys, I'm sure to come across the same dilemma soon enough. |
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Sounds like a great question for Philosophy of Education forum!
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Elizabeth
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Helen wrote:
missionfamily wrote:
Is it possible to successfully school at home a child who is beyond reluctant to read and write...and is catering to him through unschooling the best answer for that child? And is it possible to give such a child a college preparatory education?
I'd love to know more about your thoughts on these questions, as with five boys, I'm sure to come across the same dilemma soon enough. |
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Sounds like a great question for Philosophy of Education forum! |
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Well, maybe we should move it, but I'm specifically interested in high school. I think it's totally possible in the early years. BTDT with a child who could not read or write. But this is a teen who will not and I think that's very different.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Natalia
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missionfamily wrote:
Is it possible to successfully school at home a child who is beyond reluctant to read and write...and is catering to him through unschooling the best answer for that child? And is it possible to give such a child a college preparatory education? |
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I have been thinking along these lines too- questioning my decision to homeschool high school. I don't have Elizabeth's situation: a child that is so "sure" about what he wants to do that he thinks that preparing for college is not necessary. But I do have a child for whom studying is secondary to her dance commitment (even though she is not thinking about a professional dance career) and to her social life. We don't unschool and never have ( I don't have the courage or temperament for it) but the questions are the same for me: Can I give her an education comparable to the schools? can I give her the education I envisioned? I envisioned us reading books and discussing it together. I thought that she was going to be interested in learning for learning's sake. I thought she was going to be interested in ideas. I thought many other things. But I don't seem to be able to reach her or to engage her the way I thought I would.Maybe is not only because of her but because of the reality of my life. After all she is not my only child.
I have been wondering if, because she is not the type to read and read, and she doesn't have the need or desire to write, if maybe having the external control of a traditional high school would've been better for her. I hope I am not hijacking Elizabeth's thread. In my mind all of this is related. Can I really do justice to a high school education if my child is not the self motivated, self directed, wide interest child that homeschoolers seem to be? I mean I could have her do her work ( and she does) but is that what a good education is? Is this a case of letting go of my ideals and be more realistic?
Sorry Elizabeth if this doesn't help you or give you any ideas but, your question has struck a nerve and some questions that I have been pondering lately.
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Erin
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Elizabeth
It must be so hard as reading and writing are your natural learning and teaching styles; but will he learn in other ways? Audio has been covered, but what about hands on? Could he create a project on a topic that he is interested in and learn through doing? Is there something other than soccer that captures his interest? I know you have been following the Reggio thread could this sort of approach work?
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My thoughts are that if a child is reluctant to study at home, why would school be a better option? I don't see that school would suddenly motivate a teenager? I don't have teenagers right now - but do envision some possibly similar problems with one of my boys - I know many who will send their children to high school because of this - I just feel that it is so important to homeschool high school and stay connected to our children during these years. Not sure what the solution is though.
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LisaR
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MarilynW wrote:
| My thoughts are that if a child is reluctant to study at home, why would school be a better option? . |
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I would not say that Joe ever refused to do his work, he just wasn't into it, you know? he kind of wandered aimlessly around the house, or tried to watch sports online or play too much Xbox360. He read alot. He also was really unmotivated and bored,kind of listless acting.
In school, he has many male teachers, Priests, coaches who are great motivators and cheerleaders in a way that mom couldn;t be. I could not wear all of the hats to care for my son, and that is ok!
I love getting emails from teachers/coaches literally moments after Joe has done a great presentation or excelled in some way- they let me know! similarly, they can assess Joe's interests with an outside eye and are revealing talents and suggestions for futures that dh and I, and even Joe, never really considered.
Plus, there is a friendly competition amongst many of his peers to do well on tests, speeches, etc, and he really will step up to those kinds of challenges.
I think if anything, I have "kept him closer" because he loves to come home and "educate" us about what he has learned at school , what the homily was about at Mass, how many pins he had during wrestling practice, etc , and conversely, he is still interested in what we are learning at home.
Some teens can thrive in a self-paced-study environment, like home, however, from what I have read over the years, the adolescent phase is a time when ALL children thrive when learning from others. (look at the apprenticeships or monk-schools of centuries ago, many fmailies "sent their child out")
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monique
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MarilynW wrote:
| My thoughts are that if a child is reluctant to study at home, why would school be a better option? |
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Even though I don't have a teenager, yet, I've been following this thread because of one of my sons. I'm seriously thinking about sending him to school or going the other direction and unschooling. I just feel like he is not thriving here at home. I would at least like to give him the opportunity to do better. He's angry with me all the time because I do require him to do a small amount of work. I share your sentiments, Marilyn, which is why I haven't put him in school already. I figure he will get away with more there because a teacher has many more kids to keep up with then I do. I guess it really all depends on the child and what motivates them. I always think to myself that they would work better for a teacher. I don't know why I think that but I do...
I like the idea of sitting down with them and visiting about their future. But I suppose some boys are just too immature or don't have an interest in thinking about the future.
Very interesting topic. I'm reading and learning.... 
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Bridget
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Would his dad and big brothers be the ones to help him work out plan B? What if he spent some time shadowing Mike at work? I am trying to think of ways to expand his thinking.
14 is awfully young to allow him to make decisions that will close doors. But if he looses a chance at college soccer, I'm sure he will find another direction. Although it will be painful at the time.
In the meantime, I think I would require some math and writing. Even if you have to hold out a nice incentive to get him to do it. For history and literature, try to use good movies, and recordings when he is captive in the car. At least that will help fill in some of the gaps and give him some exposure to the great written works and events in history.
Just thinking about what might work... or nudge him a little.
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Sarah
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This is definately not to diminish or rip on those who send their kids to high school. I have seen it do great things for kids. But I just want to point out something about institutional high school and my experience. I knew many friends who were able to play the academic game very well without ever reading a book or putting any true effort into their classes. A kid can copy homework, cheat on tests, merely listen to others discussing the basic idea of a novel to pass the class and even get a decent grade. It is possible to fake your way through high school and never get much of an education.So don't think just because kids are enrolled in school they are getting anything out of it.Lisa, your son sounds great so I do not mean to be referring to him in any way! Its difficult to fake your way through homeschooling because its just you with no one to hide behind. Kids such as the ones you are discussing in this thread used to slide right on through our high school and not be the same person as they were representing in their transcripts. So, I guess you can lead a horse to water. . .
I think invoking St. John Bosco or someone similar might help for inspiration.
Reminding kids that they might be a janitor or trash collector might inspire them. Not that I'm knocking either of those jobs. Thank God we have such people. But if you have a kid who gags at the thought of cleaning a toilet perhaps a reminder wouldn't hurt.I love the getting a hard job idea. I,ve tried to fabricate them at home for my boys. My 13 year old is digging a 30 foot long trench 12 deep to run electricity to our chicken coop. Its taking forever. He knows manual labor isn't for him! I'm praising him up and down and reminding him how he will always be so proud of himself when its finally done. I wouldn't trade that experience for him for anything.I think boys need really hard tasks sometimes.
Would it ever work to use the ole "we live in a country that requires all kids to get an education" lecture. My kids have all heard this one: its against the law for you not to do math or X today because by the law I have promised that you are getting this at home. I cannot lie and say you are getting an education when you are not. We live in a country that requires all kids to get an education. You don't have a choice. Its like if you decided not to stop at a red light. You don't have a choice because we have made that a law in this country and its not an immoral law. So you may not like what I have to say but its not really me saying it. I didn't write the law and I cannot lie so do you want to do the evens, odds, or the whole page?" I've always got some mileage off that one!
Of course, my oldest is almost 13. My second child isn't on the same page so to speak. We'll see how he unfolds.
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mariB
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Elizabeth,
Isn't your son's brother at college? Maybe your reluctant son could hang out for the day at the college, shadowing, as they call it. Just being in the presence of the college atmosphere may change his mind...
Just a thought...
I have a friend who homeschools who had her then fourteen year old daughter do that with her sister up at UVM...
This thought just came to me...
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Bookswithtea
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missionfamily wrote:
I think there are some great ideas i nthis thread, but I'm still wodnering about the philosophical nature of ELizabeth's question...it intrigues me...
Is it possible to successfully school at home a child who is beyond reluctant to read and write...and is catering to him through unschooling the best answer for that child? And is it possible to give such a child a college preparatory education?
I'd love to know more about your thoughts on these questions, as with five boys, I'm sure to come across the same dilemma soon enough. |
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I've been musing on this for the last few days. Mothering is an amazing vocation, but its also one of the most difficult jobs on the face of the earth.
About these children...I think it depends on where they are coming from. I think that for children who are full of angst toward their parents and siblings, using an outside school full time may not be the best option. From what I've seen, it has the potential to deepen the divide.
But for the child who isn't rebellious from his/her family but continues to be rebellious toward academics...sometimes outside schooling is a good alternative, in spite of our own love and devotion to homeschooling. No matter how much we want to declare ourselves "lif-ers" in this homeschool dream, the reality is that what we all want most is to do whatever it takes to give each child the education that he or she needs, to the best of our ability. Sometimes, at these older ages with certain children, homeschooling just doesn't work as well as it did when they were younger.
I think the situation is particularly awkward with boys at these ages. God made them to need constant physical activity and to be in training for manhood. Unfortunately, our society is geared towards hours of deskwork  in the constant presence of women  instead. Homeschooling doesn't fix these problems well unless Dad is home a lot and there are many opportunities at home for labor alongside dad. Sending a boy out to do lots of labor without the cameraderie and companionship of dad or older brothers is more like isolation than training for manhood. The right school can provide these things in an imperfect but acceptable way sometimes.
I don't think unschooling works well for boys who are not motivated by academics and don't have college as a goal. Heavy structure and hard fast requirements makes more sense to me than putting a child in charge of an education that he does not value or want. I wouldn't require a fully college prep education out of a child like. I would push trade school heavily, though, and provide a ton of opportunities to learn about different careers in the hopes that the child would become inspired by something other than college that would help motivate them to get through high school.
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Elizabeth
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I appreciate all your responses. You've given me much to think about these days. I don't know what we're going to do. Mike and I are actively discussing all our options, including finishing the eighth grade at the parish school.
And believe me, we've discussed and discussed and discussed with Patrick. We're a discussing kind of family.
One thing is becoming clear to me, though, in answer to my own original question: I don't think that you can homeschool for high school and prepare a child for college if he won't read and write. College is all about reading and writing. A child who isn't practiced in those skills will be ill-prepared. Most colleges have remedial programs to help kids who are unprepared, but that doesn't change the fact that they were not prepared adequately in high school.
The other thing I know is that I'm not good at *making* a child do something. The authoritarian hat has never fit me well.
I promise to go back and carefully consider all your suggestions--right now, baby calls.
Thanks for thinking aloud with me! Keep talking; I'm listening.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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mariB
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Oh! I don't know why I didn't think of this! My oldest was always resistant to me not disrespectfully...but taking forever...not completing his work for weeks...
We had him go to private school in 7th grade...he's is still not as prompt as I would like him to be, but one year in school did "cure" him.
The agreement at home after that year at school was "If you come home, you MUST do all the assignments I give you." BTW, It was a nice break for me that year because we had a new baby and all the other children at home were really cooperative.
Just another thought...
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Bridget
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Elizabeth wrote:
The other thing I know is that I'm not good at *making* a child do something. The authoritarian hat has never fit me well.
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I agree. I AM authoritarian and I couldn't make my 15 year old do something he is set against. Thats why I suggested an 'incentive'. Something to help drag him through a couple more years of academic work. Then if he still balks at 16 or 17, that seems like a reasonable time to let him decide for himself on this.
On the other hand. God designed this kid. If soccer doesn't work out, as a man, he will make plan B and take ownership of it. And being from the family he is from, no doubt he is bright and will succeed at it.
I don't really even belong in this discussion since we are far from unschoolers, i just was thinking about what i would do if confronted with this situation.
Paddy will find his way.
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Unschooling High School
