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Tina P.
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One more question. How do unschoolers satisfy state requirements as to what they do all year? Do you just sort of journal the learning activities of every day?
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
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BrendaPeter
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Hi Tina,
FYI - you can find my post on page 1 - but I checked out your "Relaxing" thread & it sounds like you are doing great!! At certain times along the journey when things got tense & ugly and I just couldn't think clearly, we put aside the books & did some "real learning". It's good to have those little breaks - & sometimes they turn into big breaks!
I did want to mention that you have your hands full! I have 6 dc, 11 & down, & it can get pretty crazy here! If you can manage a day where you get the laundry done, meals on the table, everyone washed & a few lessons, then it's a good day! Most of my friends are in the same boat & most of them use Seton  . I call it "survival mode". Seriously, what has been so good for me (this is for Willa) is to have a close friend who has 8 dc, 12 & under, who uses Seton. I'm so impressed with their family! The children enjoy school. They read tons. They are very interesting, independent & well-disciplined kids. They have plenty of free time as their mom is not a slave to the curriculum. (Because their little ones nap in the afternoon, they only do lessons in the afternoons). Both their mom & dad are Franciscan tertiaries & spend a tremendous amount of time either at a local friary or having the friars in their home, so their spiritual life is incredible too.
It's good to glean from people like my friend as well as the unschoolers & find a style that works in your home for your unique circumstances. I'm always reminded that everyone is so individual & God is calling each of us to homeschool in different ways.
These days I find that if I focus on my spiritual life (without being imprudent) and am able to be joyful interiorly, then everyone's joyful & things just flow. When I get stuck & wonder if I should buy this math book or that science text for the kids, I just bring it to God. I figure if He wants me to homeschool then He'll help me with the details.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Cindy
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I have just finished reading this thread and thought I might jump in with a couple of comments...
I know it is a different scenario with a lot of kids, but hopefully my thoughts might apply. My boys are 15 and 12. My oldest is similar to Julie's oldest- His interests and narrow and deep. He also does not like anything that is contrived.. at all.
Over the years I had to struggle with my plan and 'obidience'.. all that stuff. He has been my teacher. I finally began to spend less time planning and implementing and instead looked at who he really was. How he learned, what made him tick. When I did, I also began to appreciate how much he was learning from his own interests.
Once I made that leap (and it was hard not to leap back, as I am a very different learner, loved worksheets and tests), I could build from his interests.
When I started truly respecting his interests (really, not just giving lip-service) I could see a change in him. It affected his confidence and demeamor. He opened up more to me and was curious about my interests. It as a mutual respect sort of thing.
I tried to pick and choose what I asked him to do and he was more open to them because of the mutual respect, I think. It was kind of like a snowball.. the more mutual respect, the more we talked, the more we talked, the more I saw him learn, the more I saw him learn, the better I felt, the more he felt confident, the more we talked.. etc! :)
But, he is not a traditional learner.. I really had to spend energy knowing what he was and helping him to be who God made him to be. I think this is harder than researching and implementing curriculum. But the rewards were greater.. b/c we seem to enjoy each other more. I still research resources and ideas (always will I'm sure) but the focus is different if that makes sense.
My second son is more traditional and much 'easier'. But I am thankful God gave me them in the order he did because my oldest has forced me to think outside the box and not just put him on a treadmill. I now try also to give my younger ds what he might best thrive with even though he is more compliant.
Also, about writing.. Julie said it well.. and I appeciate Tina's questions...
I have stuck to no formal curriculum though I have tried several over the years. They were all so stale. I couldn't get a written narration out of my oldest ds until he was about 11. And it was a one-liner. But we had conversations continually-- our version of oral narration.
But through reading and video games, life interests, he and his brother got the writing bug.. and it hasn't stopped. One video game walk through they wrote is over 11,000 words! I have asked virtually nothing of them for 6 years now. But, I have encouraged their writing and they are very prolific. Over the years they have come to me asking about grammar, spelling, form, etc. When they care about it, I find, they want it right. (for example the letter to George Lucus dissagreeing with his marketing plan.. :) )
The low stakes writing is just fun, but the high stakes writing causes them to want perfection.
I see the elements you mentioned, Tina, coming together. I have had them do a couple of Bravewriter courses.. at first they didn't care for it.. but then found their voice. They like message board styles, so it was a fit.
I ask them to read essays, or things they wouldn't normally pick up to see a broad range. Like CM says, I think being exposed to various forms of writing teaches them a lot.
I feel confident that by the time they are 18 or so, we can look over a writing book and fill in any 'blanks' they have missed. But if I can support their interests and give them reason to write (and read it, even when it is rather boring.. lol) then they can learn the skills.
An aside.. when they started the first BW class they were told they could choose any topic.. They both chose Nintendo, expecting to be shot down. They kept waiting for the 'other shoe to drop'.. Why? Because in past years I would always have an agenda in the background. It was truly a breakthrough when their writing was valued.
They both wrote about Nintendo that first session, then branched off to other things... the 2004 election, etc. Discussion is very key and I hear them 'narrate' through conversation daily: faith, current events, history, all these ideas that are percolating inside. And I know that when they need to write about these subjects, they will have the tools they have learned from writing about video games and star wars.. :)
Oh, one more thing.. modeling. They see their dad write letters to politicians.. see mom write letter to boycott corporations who support Planned Parenthood, etc. They are learning about the world and how writing is a tool.. reading editorials, even comic strips and how they affect readers with opinion, etc. Real life provides learning ops everywhere. Better quit now! lol
Just hoping to encourage more with what we have found following passions.. learning really does happen.
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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Willa
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Tina,
About how unschoolers do record-keeping. I recently reread Nancy Wallace's "Better Than School". She was homeschooling when the authorities were a lot stricter than they are now and had to present detailed course outlines and the like. She got a letter from John Holt detailing how you can make unschooling experience "sound like" standard academics. It wasn't lying, just presenting the kind of thing unschoolers do in a format that could be understood by those who don't understand  I tried to find it online but couldn't, and I don't have the book to type it out.
Anyway, I think what you do is log what the children are doing and then, if your state requires it, format it under subject headings like this
My state doesn't require that, so I don't do it except to reassure myself that we're actually doing something.
It's surprising how it adds up. I'm planning to do some reconstructing of this last few months -- I've informally journalled and kept book lists -- and my kids have read and done a lot. It's ironic -- the public schools are trying to do MORE "real" learning -- at our local school they have junior size gardening tools and a little garden, reading incentive programs and all these artistic projects on the walls and ground -- and our school gets some of the best quality scores in our area...
From what John Holt said, if you describe just plain reading as "Sustained Silent Reading" you're right in the school mainstream, and almost anything you do at home is like that.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Willa
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My writing experience parallels Cindy's. Almost all the writing curriculum out there makes me feel depressed  so I didn't have the heart to use it much especially since my kids were decidely unenthused. I had my kids do a bit of copywork and written narration in their younger years, but it was never systematic.
In their teenage years all three have taken off. Two of them have written novels and they also write little newsletter articles, poems, sports commentaries, etc. Following their own interests. The third one tries to write stories and poems in Latin and Greek They developed their own style.
In my family my oldest was both compliant AND also very firm though polite when he wasn't learning anything from my experiments -- he was my guinea pig! We settled on a classical style with logic, grammar, languages, and lots of reading and talking. Our channels of communication were really good and so I could be flexible and structured at the same time. He responded well to that. He actually LIKED analytic grammar, which is an interest of mine, as well.
My second two are very different. I have had to back off a bit more with them. Strewing and environment work well with them though, and helping them find resources to support their interests.
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Willa
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ladybugs
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Hi Ladies,
Because of our financial struggles and to provide my children with some opportunities that we couldn't personally, I signed up with a charter school. Thankfully, the teacher who comes each week to "check our progress" is an outside of the box thinker so there's no pressure to look like school applied by him, but because we're using the system, I feel the pressure.
I print out the calendars from my computer, one for each girl, and I write down what we do for the day. He makes it fit into the categories that he needs to fill. And sometimes, I just explain to the girls that Mr. Connolly needs some samples of things they do.
About 2 months ago, I went to the park with another family who homeschools and recently moved to our area. I took my calendar to fill out and my friend sort of freaked out. She said, "You're filling out what you did? Not what's planned?" I think this has worked for our family because of the ages of the children and our dynamics and circumstances.
Now, I do go into my day with an idea of projects to offer for my children...and sometimes, it is planned. They also have chores but I would say that our method is more like Suzie Andres, right now.
I just offer this method of writing things down if it helps someone.
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: Dec 19 2005 at 11:31am | IP Logged
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While reading today's unschooling/laziness entries about record keeping and such, I had an idea.
While I know these last two weeks of December aren't the normal mode, I'd like to make a suggestion all the same.
Why don't those who are attracted to the unschooling lifestyle take these two weeks to sit back and relax and watch your dc. If we're honest with ourselves, we know that not much "schoolwork" is going to get done these two weeks anyway.
Each night ask yourself:
What interests did they pursue? What rabbit trails did they follow? What opportunities did they approach you about? What things did they look for under the tree or write down on their Christmas list (that'll give you a big 'hint' of where their interests lies)?
We could keep a running thread open for these two weeks to "account" or "record keep" what we saw our dc doing throughout the day. I'm asking you to give up some control and practice the "Masterly Inactivty" that CM writes about. Our job---strictly for ourselves---these two weeks is to focus on "Mother Culture" (Ch. 46 of CM Companion) and the "Atmosphere of the Home" (Ch 6 of CM Companion). No curriculum planning, no page counting, no "school"...
I know we'll all be busy so posting will probably be infrequent and sporadic. But that's okay. Let the child be the teacher these next two weeks, and see what he teaches you.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Martha
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I think it depends on the person's view of what "unschooling" is.
Unschooling doesn't suit us because, in all honesty, I find it way too hard. I find it easier to work with a set plan and a schedule. I'm not religious about my use of either, but I like to have a framework. I may do an occassional unit study or use an "unschooling" style with a certain subject though.
Many unschoolers actually put in a LOT more time on lesson plans, materials, and so on than I do because what they are doing or using may be constantly changing - with or without much notice. I certainly wouldn't think they have become lazy in any way. If anything, I think a good amount of them are more tired than me! Just thinking of doing everything around whatever unit study catches one of my 7 dc's fancy makes me tired and kind of nauseous. :-)
There are unschoolers who just leave the kids to their own devices and pretty much don't plan or organize anything. I think these are in the minority though and would make for a whole other type of frustration and stress. I don't know if it's "lazy" - I just think it ends up harder in the long run and isn't something I could do. (Dh would completely flip for one!)
Then there's the unschoolers who are somewhere in between the 2 descriptions above. They may do unit studies, have a few select workbooks, and plan some things, while letting other things come/go as life happens. Again, I wouldn't call that lazy by any means either. In fact, I think it's probably the norm for most unschoolers and certainly most of the ones I know personally.
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Martha
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Cay Gibson
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Martha wrote:
| Then there's the unschoolers who are somewhere in between the 2 descriptions above. |
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Ah, like layers of an onion...  Of course!
Martha wrote:
| They may do unit studies, have a few select workbooks, and plan some things, while letting other things come/go as life happens. Again, I wouldn't call that lazy by any means either. In fact, I think it's probably the norm for most unschoolers and certainly most of the ones I know personally. |
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I think so too.
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Cay Gibson
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Leonie
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Tina,
I am sorry that I have been AWOL on this thread - life gets in the way of posting!
WRT unschooling, I like to remember that a) no-one HAS to unschool and b) unschooling may look differently for each family .
So, if a ds is not writing , there are several paths I can choose.
I can require a certain amount of writing each week - now, I don't do this, but it is an option.
I can strew writing - we have a journal nook, for example, and I try to make time to sit there and write and draw with my kids once a week. Hasn't happened for a few weeks, but we did some writing yesterday before leaving to take some of the kids to the airport.
I can decide that what this kid needs right now is not to write but to continue his explorations and let writing follow in real life - lists or emails or thank you leters. Sometimes this is just what a child needs.
Time. I see your story of an hour of maths with one child and how to spread that among many. I find it just doesn't work that way.  I am available in what other families would call school time and sometimes we do things all together or with two or three or (rarely I must admit) just one child. It all works out in the end. I also just live my daily life with my kids and some maths time can come up unexpectedly then - for example, a recent discussion with youngerst son about money and Xmas presents and cost comparisons and calculations, while we were at the shops.
Recordkeeping These last two terms I have done something different. I took one of those divided notebooks and put the curriculum areas on each tab. At the start of the month I start a new page in each curricual tab. At the end of the day, when I have my cup of tea before bed and when write up my to do list for tomorrow, I also jot down any activities and discussions and books under the appropiate tabs.
For example, under Maths I wrote yesterday - discuss tri (3) and triangles, pyramids, triangular prisms
( related to construction of the Xmas tryptich).
Under English, I wrote journal writing and silent reading.
Thsi takes about 5 minutes to do each night and no, I don't manage to get every activity - probably just the highlights. This, with the kids files or notebooks of pamphlets/photos/work samples are our record keeping.
Have a great Advent and a Merry Christmas!
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Leonie in Sydney
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juliecinci
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Tina P. wrote:
| I *do* need to focus on my children more and determine their needs. My son and I whizzed through 5 lessons of Saxon math ~ granted, it was a year behind his own level and most of it was oral ~ in one day. |
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This is great and I understand what you mean about how each child can take an hour (or more) of focused attention and you literally don't have enough hours in the day!
Something I try to share on Brave Writer is to think in terms of the week or month, rather than the day. So instead of feeling like you ahve to "hit" math every day with every child, think about how you can enjoy math, incorporate math in your lifestyle but then maybe give focused attention to one child doing math once per week or every other week.
Does that make sense? With younger kids this can work. With older kids, honestly I resorted to a tutor. I just didn't have the ability to teach that level sucessfully.
We are using Murderous Maths around here and I've gleaned wonderful lifestyle principles from the livingmath.net site and list.
Tina P. wrote:
I guess my point about telling you about whizzing through 5 lessons of math was that because we did it together, there was no complaining. He actually  enjoyed it. Whoa. Big revelation. |
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It's amazing how much more they enjoy learning when we are right there. It is just hard to do.
I have tried to be more deliberate about things. We sometimes take math with us to the dentist while waiting for another child in an appointment, sometimes I end up sitting up late with one child reading aloud or writing... it's so different with homeschool. I had to remember that we have other hours of the day besides the morning to spend that kind of time. Even Saturday mornings!
Tina P. wrote:
Dad comes home and doesn't smell dinner cooking and the house is a mess and the inevitable question comes, "What have you been doing all day?"
I wonder whether we'll ever catch up with life.  |
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I totally get this! I started a homeschool blog for myself just to keep a loose record so that I could answer that question (he never asks it, but I feel it anyway). It helped!
I hope you find more solutions. Seven kids with babies and toddlers is just one big juggling act. Whatever you get done, you should feel terrific!
Julie
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Julie
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Willa
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Cay Gibson wrote:
Each night ask yourself:
What interests did they pursue? What rabbit trails did they follow? What opportunities did they approach you about? What things did they look for under the tree or write down on their Christmas list (that'll give you a big 'hint' of where their interests lies)? |
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Cay, I love this idea... 
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Willa
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JSchaaf
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I'm up for your challenge, Cay! I feel like I'm coming out of a 4 month fog since Katrina and am ready to "know" my children again. Anne-Catherine is home for the next two weeks and we are really going to try and limit TV and read, bake, do crafts, etc. I've kept the bedtime read aloud going since the storm, but do no other reading aloud during the day. Baking and crafts? No, none of that either. It was just easier to turn on the TV.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the next few weeks (and months!) Will you start a new thread where we should post about our days??
Jennifer
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Mary G
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Cay Gibson wrote:
While reading today's unschooling/laziness entries about record keeping and such, I had an idea.
While I know these last two weeks of December aren't the normal mode, I'd like to make a suggestion all the same.
Why don't those who are attracted to the unschooling lifestyle take these two weeks to sit back and relax and watch your dc. If we're honest with ourselves, we know that not much "schoolwork" is going to get done these two weeks anyway.
Each night ask yourself:
What interests did they pursue? What rabbit trails did they follow? What opportunities did they approach you about? What things did they look for under the tree or write down on their Christmas list (that'll give you a big 'hint' of where their interests lies)?
We could keep a running thread open for these two weeks to "account" or "record keep" what we saw our dc doing throughout the day. I'm asking you to give up some control and practice the "Masterly Inactivty" that CM writes about. Our job---strictly for ourselves---these two weeks is to focus on "Mother Culture" (Ch. 46 of CM Companion) and the "Atmosphere of the Home" (Ch 6 of CM Companion). No curriculum planning, no page counting, no "school"...
I know we'll all be busy so posting will probably be infrequent and sporadic. But that's okay. Let the child be the teacher these next two weeks, and see what he teaches you. |
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Cay -- this is a marvelous idea. I had posted a note on the Teen board about how to "motivate teens" and Leonie and Willa both suggested sitting back and listening to your teens, loving your teens and learning from your teens (my paraphrase). Your suggestion fits in perfectly with this -- what books do they pick up to read, what activities are they starting on their own, what games are they playing with the younger ones.....
THANKS!
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Cay Gibson
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JSchaaf wrote:
| ...we are really going to try and limit TV and read, bake, do crafts, etc. |
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I've heard from people who frown on this. Their theory is that while reading, baking, and doing crafts is nice and cozy, it is not an education. They frown on unit studies because of this very reason; there is too much baking, crafting, etc. and nothing of "substance."
I understand their theory, I really do. And I combat it with "tabletime" every morning.
We;ve been doing the baking and reading all month long. It's the disciplined "tabletime" we're giving up these two weeks.
And I might have to eat my own words...along with the Christmas tur-duc-hen. Yesterday, my 12 yr old spent too much time going between the Playstation, the computer, and his room. He did come out to watch "The Polar Express" with us and help me clean out the carport that still had remains of hurricane living.
And, what is on his Christmas list and what is he searching for under the tree? An Xbox 360 and game cartridges, of course. He might only last a week before I have to steer him to higher expectations. 
JSchaaf wrote:
Will you start a new thread where we should post about our days??
Jennifer |
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I can start the thread. I just don't know if I can be active in what I start. And, perhaps, it's just you and I that are needing to account to ourselves.  Could it be because we're both hurricane evacuees?
Really it was the evacuation that gave me the most sense of peace regarding our schooling decisions. I saw people, after only 3 days on the road, trying to find a school to place their children. I sat in FEMA lines and offices listening to people lament their children's education. They were desperate. They had no confidence in themselves or in their dc that they could---and would---learn despite the conditions. Has public education deliberately stripped away people's power to learn and think for themselves???!!!
Instead of observing everything around them and using it as a learning tool, they were in a deadlock theory that learning could only take place in an institution. I know you had your own experience with outside influences, Jennifer.
Once again, I understand their point. They believed their children would do better with some type of normalicy, that their days would be better spent in a classroom with activities and learning opportunities vs. living in a camper filled with 11 people or in a hotel room or in a civic center filled with other evacuees.
The thing that struck me as ironic is that I knew (with no doubt) that these children would not remember a month of spelling or algebra or geography, etc. What they'd remember is the hurricane and the aftermath. What was the purpose in trying to fill their heads with trivial stuff (twaddle) when they already had so much "real life" to process?
My oldest ds was given a chainsaw and an ax and, like his forefathers before him, learned to strip the land and use his back to survive. Using one's back is also very good for working the mind, though modern day educators probably wouldn't agree. You know how much meditating and thinking he did that month? How many survival skills he had to use living without electricity and modern day conveniences? I know that you know, Jennifer.
It was (is) a decision each one of us has to make (as you have done, Jennifer). We have to observe our situation every year (and sometimes every month) and discern where our dc will learn best. But, no matter what, only our dc will tell us when and how they will learn.
Have I gotten way-OT or what!?
I have a little girl's b-day to celebrate today. So I best get off my soapbox and get busy.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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JSchaaf
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HI Cay-watch for a new "hurricane homeschooling" thread (or something like that). I've got all these thoughts bouncing around that I need to get out!
Jennifer
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Cindy
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Cay Gibson wrote:
I've heard from people who frown on this. Their theory is that while reading, baking, and doing crafts is nice and cozy, it is not an education. They frown on unit studies because of this very reason; there is too much baking, crafting, etc. and nothing of "substance."
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Hi Cay-
Love your idea of journalling.. I am in my never-ending search of an easy way to journal. So much of the learning is in conversations... so subtle, seeing them make connections, so hard to put on paper easily for me.
Hey, I had to giggle at the quote above...that reading is not a real education! Just cozy? lol Wow, that school mentality has really permeated society, hasn't it. Your FEMA line example was a good one, too.. that learning can only happen in the right room with the right teacher and the right flouresent lights! :)
Cindy
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Cindy in Texas
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Cay Gibson
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Joined: July 16 2005
Location: Louisiana
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Posts: 5193
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| Posted: Dec 22 2005 at 6:20pm | IP Logged
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Cindy wrote:
Love your idea of journalling.. I am in my never-ending search of an easy way to journal. So much of the learning is in conversations... so subtle, seeing them make connections, so hard to put on paper easily for me.
Cindy |
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Cindy,
I do find that blogging is a perfect way to journal...for me. I've tried notebooks and lovely journal diaries and never kept them going. I've blogged through the whole 2005 year and feel like I'm just now ready to take flight.
It's fun because you can add pictures and colors and links. Of course, you can add pictures and stickers and borders to a paper journal as well. Guess I'm too lazy. The Internet is a one-stop-shoppe, and it doesn't cost anything.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Cindy
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Joined: Feb 01 2005
Location: Texas
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Posts: 235
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| Posted: Dec 23 2005 at 9:30am | IP Logged
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Cay Gibson wrote:
Cindy,
I do find that blogging is a perfect way to journal...for me. I've tried notebooks and lovely journal diaries and never kept them going. I've blogged through the whole 2005 year and feel like I'm just now ready to take flight.
It's fun because you can add pictures and colors and links. Of course, you can add pictures and stickers and borders to a paper journal as well. Guess I'm too lazy. The Internet is a one-stop-shoppe, and it doesn't cost anything. |
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Cay, I agree! And I loved blogging for that reason... it looked so pretty and I could add pictures. I just found I wanted to add more about the boys and didn't know how much I should put on line.... do you keep another private journal as well?
__________________
Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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Cay Gibson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 16 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5193
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| Posted: Dec 23 2005 at 10:11am | IP Logged
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Cindy wrote:
I just found I wanted to add more about the boys and didn't know how much I should put on line.... do you keep another private journal as well?
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No.
I know some blogs allow you to have a separate private blog but I don't know how to do that yet at blogspot.com
I'm still a novice...but learning.
I began to do like Lissa and give the children code names. It's confusing at first but it's good to confuse people on the worldwide web. If you know what I mean.
I started by simply saying the 7-yr-old and 3-yr-old, and I still do that if I need to make reference to their age. But coming up with code names was actually kind of fun. 
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Unschooling and laziness?
