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Leonie
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Brenda,
I often wonder if it is the school imposed structure that makes disciplined people - or something else?
I am a person who challenges herself a lot. I make myself move out of my comfort zone. For some reason, that is important to me.
Where did I learn this? Was it the school imposed structure, was it life experiences, is it personality?
Probably all of these things. Yet, I have friends who have expereinced school and structure who do not make the same choices that I make. Their life is good, too!And I have some sons that push themselves, too - without having had a school structure.
I wonder if the structure can be imposed from within, after years of modelling and discussion and opportunity?
WRT down time - I find my kids go through crazes.
To be honest, so do I! They may play and play and then, all of a sudden or so it seems, up pops something more challenging. And the play is good, too.
I think that when there is school and not school time, kids feel they have to play more ( sometimes). It is like a veg time and a work time. Not necessarily a bad thing.
But I can't compare long term unschool-ishness with the time of play when school time happens. The long term unschooly lifestyle *does seem to change the things children do - and it also changes the way parents look at the things children do. IME, anyway! 
I always suggest that, if people are interested in this style of education and parenting, that everyone take a break and live like they do on holidays - have fun living and learning and, yes, working together. Give it a really good time - six months perhaps - and then see what is happening. Journal. Read. Reflect and add in things or make changes if you want, after your pre-determined space of time.
Some personal rambles....
__________________
Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Cay Gibson
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WJFR wrote:
Cay talks about 9-12 "table time". This is "unschooling" to her, but to us, it's honestly academic overload. |
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Leonie,
Thanks for the link to McKee's articles. I love to have something new to read and dwell on. 
Willa,
I thought about this thread while I ran errands this afternoon.
And I was thinking...perhaps you are *unschooling* more than I am.  Wouldn't that be a twist?
Our *table time* is actually the part of the day that unschooling goes out and schooling comes in. It's a very brief part of the day actually. But I'm fully aware that they are *learning* the whole day and, if we have this formalized *table time* in the morning---primarily with CHC this year---, I don't stress about the rest of the day. I also do this because dad likes to see a paper trail. 
I like the kids to be finished with structured/formal schooling by lunchtime. I don't like the stress of *schoolwork* continuing into the afternoon. I want the dc to be free to unschool and do whatever interests them. If I see the kids doing some *real learning* during the day, I'm delighted and say the heck! with *table time*.
Trust me, the *table time* is a term I heard ages ago at CCM and it intrigued me. I helped me combine the best of the real learning/unschooling ideal I wanted and the realistism of my own laziness and fallen nature and weaknesses that are so prevelant throughout the day. 9AM-12N isn't for the dc as much as it is for me. I can ask, "Did we cover X, X, and X?" and answer myself and dh, "Yes." It's a very small part of our day really.
It's like a security blanket; the rest of the day is life's quilt...with a couple of gaps, of course.
This is just what works for us, of course! 
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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juliecinci
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Leonie wrote:
I often wonder if it is the school imposed structure that makes disciplined people - or something else? |
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That's such a great question.
I have noticed in me (now being in school again) that I have that acquired school style discipline that "knows" how to pace myself and prepare to get projects and writing and reading done on time.
My son (18) who is also in this college class, doesn't work that way at all. He does things much more last minute. (And I do remember being that way in certain classes myself. HIs motivation is different though as you will see.)
What is different about this "unschooled" kid is that he is totally into the material. We are studying NT Greek and while I get all of the exercises done, he is busy buying lexicons and Harry Potter in Ancient Greek and translating that while using our text book as a resource for what he wants out of Greek.
It cracks our professor up who doesn't seem to mind.
What struck me though, is that Noah is the one kid in class who is really excited about learning Greek and doesn't care at all about the grade, the credits, the structure of the class. Nothing.
What he cares about is learning Greek at his own pace with whatever help the class can be. He loves the lectures and the group interaction. But it's not about the "class" at all. See what I mean?
Leonie wrote:
I am a person who challenges herself a lot. I make myself move out of my comfort zone. For some reason, that is important to me.
Where did I learn this? Was it the school imposed structure, was it life experiences, is it personality? |
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You said something earlier that has stuck with me. Challenging yourself is not the same as being good at school either.
Some kids work hard in classes or for their parents' approval at home. But is it less notable if a child works hard to beat a level in a video game? I mean, really? I would never have the tenacity or patience.
I've watched my kids research game tips and cheats online to get past levels, I've watched one of them get to a high level of frustration because he kept repeating the same mistakes, but *would not give up* until he had beaten that level (this took hours). Had he been working on "math" would I have worried that he was so frustrated or worked so hard to "get the concept"?
What I see in my kids who are unschooled is that they work hard for what they care about.
So then the question becomes: should they be trained to work hard at what they don't care about by structuring school?
I have gone round and round on this in my life over the last thirteen years.
I've come to the place that I feel they will do better if they make those choices for themselves - they choose to be in a class or tutorial for a subject they find challenging and less interesting.
Example: my 16 yodd does not love math but has become really good at it through going to a tutor for all of algebra I, geometry and algebra II (year round, her choice!).
My 13 yods runs a business sselling cookies. He doesn't always want to bake (he doesn't even like his own cookies after three years of baking them weekly), but he does it because it is his choice to be obligated to neighbors to earn money.
And even my 18 yods who is the least willing to do what he doesn't like to do, has held three different jobs (the current one for 15 months) and he never complains, always shows up on time and is working hard to be a better employee (told me his goals for this Barnes and Noble cafe job).
They get opportunities to grow in self-discipline, but they aren't ruining their love of learning to do it. For me, that's the important difference.
Leonie wrote:
I always suggest that, if people are interested in this style of education and parenting, that everyone take a break and live like they do on holidays - have fun living and learning and, yes, working together. Give it a really good time - six months perhaps - and then see what is happening. Journal. Read. Reflect and add in things or make changes if you want, after your pre-determined space of time.
Some personal rambles.... |
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I would only add that we had to give it more than six months. I tried six months of unschooling multiple times and reverted every time. What has worked for us ultimately was giving it a full year and being on the unschooling discussion list. I needed help to sustain the vision initially. So far, we haven't looked back... at least not too much.
Doubts about parenting choices seem to be endemic to mothering.
Julie
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Cay Gibson
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juliecinci wrote:
You said something earlier that has stuck with me. Challenging yourself is not the same as being good at school either.
What I see in my kids who are unschooled is that they work hard for what they care about.
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Ah, I agree.
My oldest does challenge himself. He is so good at so many things...things I'm totally ignorant of. He's good at everything except sitting down at a desk to take a test. And the things he knows, I never showed him. The things he knows, no one ever taught him. He learned because he was interested. He taught himself because he cared. He showed himself because he was passionate about it. This is where I become a big advocate of unschooling and I can see how great it works.
I regret not coming into the unschooling mind frame years before when my ds was in elementary. Parents always regret something, don't we? Well, he's definitely unschooling his senior year.
This child won't get a masters degree in college (unless he wants to, of course ). I'm hoping and praying he stays focused and gets a degree from the community college. This degree would double his income. But this is one child whose future in work I don't worry about because he's constantly working. I won't go into what his last employer said about him but it made his dad and I, as parents, extremely proud. On his new job, he was given a raise after a mere 3 weeks on the job. And he loves what he's doing.
My oldest, more studious dd even says she's not sure how she'll survive in the world after school. Oh, she'll get the TOPS and the scholarship and the honors and the master's degree. But she admires her brother because he can do everything she can't and she's unsure of what she'll do beyond books and grades.
juliecinci wrote:
| What has worked for us ultimately was giving it a full year and being on the unschooling discussion list. |
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Julie,
Which one please.
The ones I've been on have been extremely liberal and waaaay-out-there. I keep looking for a good one and haven't found it yet. 
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! Time to go make the dishes I must bring to my brother's house.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Nov 24 2005 at 9:07am | IP Logged
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Cay Gibson wrote:
WJFR wrote:
Cay talks about 9-12 "table time". This is "unschooling" to her, but to us, it's honestly academic overload. |
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Our *table time* is actually the part of the day that unschooling goes out and schooling comes in. It's a very brief part of the day actually. But I'm fully aware that they are *learning* the whole day and, if we have this formalized *table time* in the morning---primarily with CHC this year---, I don't stress about the rest of the day. I also do this because dad likes to see a paper trail.
I like the kids to be finished with structured/formal schooling by lunchtime. I don't like the stress of *schoolwork* continuing into the afternoon. I want the dc to be free to unschool and do whatever interests them. If I see the kids doing some *real learning* during the day, I'm delighted and say the heck! with *table time*.
Trust me, the *table time* is a term I heard ages ago at CCM and it intrigued me. I helped me combine the best of the real learning/unschooling ideal I wanted and the realistism of my own laziness and fallen nature and weaknesses that are so prevelant throughout the day. 9AM-12N isn't for the dc as much as it is for me. I can ask, "Did we cover X, X, and X?" and answer myself and dh, "Yes." It's a very small part of our day really.
It's like a security blanket; the rest of the day is life's quilt...with a couple of gaps, of course.
This is just what works for us, of course!
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This describes what I'm doing this year perfectly. HOnestly, my two older children aren't exactly applauding the unschooling we've done in the past several years. I think the above suits us better in both the short and longterm for just the reasons Cay describes above and for the purposes of longterm "institutional goals." The fact of the matter is that kids who want to go to college will have to take tests to get there and unschooled kids are going to be very surprised by the reality of standardized tests after years of nothing but narration. Even the writing on those tests follows a formula. And colleges are adamant that those scores count for more for homeschooled kids and that they take more of those tests than a kid in school. Some unschooled children might do just fine on SATs and SAT 2s but I will pursue a more disciplined approach in the future with my own children, dedicating table time to the basics that aren't likely to occur to delight-directed kids but certainly occur to the college board.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| Trust me, the *table time* is a term I heard ages ago at CCM and it intrigued me. I helped me combine the best of the real learning/unschooling ideal I wanted and the realistism of my own laziness and fallen nature and weaknesses that are so prevelant throughout the day. 9AM-12N isn't for the dc as much as it is for me. I can ask, "Did we cover X, X, and X?" and answer myself and dh, "Yes." It's a very small part of our day really. It's like a security blanket; the rest of the day is life's quilt...with a couple of gaps, of course. |
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Cay, thanks! I remember hearing about "table time" from Cindy Kelly a loong time ago, maybe she went to the same conference you did. Hearing how you do it is useful to me. I can see how even if you play Monopoly or follow a rabbit trail you are still making a commitment to *yourself* that you'll spend that time with your kids, while also cooperating with your dh's ideas. Yes, I like that 
In past years we've done 9-12 but very focused, very quick pace. My 12yo got great at just whipping through any amount of seatwork in a short time. I got a bit burned out. So we're trying it differently this fall, as you know... it's been nice in a lot of ways. I'm still not sure where we're going from here. But I like your 9-12 "kid-learning-focused" time. That might work for us.
Elizabeth -- Clare has college ambitions and so she is definitely motivated to keep herself on a college-prep track. It was similar with Liam -- I "unschooled" him in that HE led the way but it definitely did not look like unschooling. He asked for structure, for orderliness and set goals.... so I did my best. He'd spent up to 8 hours a day on academics, partly because he is a slow worker and partly because he just LIKED all that stuff -- he wanted checklists and he wanted difficult subjects he could get his teeth into. Funny how different they all are.
We keep up with math because it's the subject they would not do naturally and I'm not comfortable with letting it go. Everything else, in our experience, would fit on a standard transcript in some form. But we haven't had that SAT II crunch with any of our kids; it might be different if ds-12 tries to go for a sports scholarship. I need to keep that in mind with his academics.
Oops, I am rambling, we brought Liam back from college yesterday and he just woke up so I better go make breakfast! 
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Willa
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juliecinci
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Elizabeth wrote:
This describes what I'm doing this year perfectly. HOnestly, my two older children aren't exactly applauding the unschooling we've done in the past several years. |
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Are they kids who would like more structure? I have one just like this. He is 14 and has chosen to follow The Weel Trained Mind this year. He is doing math and science and literature based on their suggested schedule.
The difference, though, from my unschooling perspective is that he is highly motivated and engaged in his learning. My 16 yodd is in school half time and takes two outside classes. Both of them like structure. But this is very different than my telling them what they have to do "for me" or "for college."
My oldest (who I tried to tell what to do to prepare fro college) still didn't do it and continues not to. So I don't see this as an unschooling issue or not as much as who holds the power in determining how educational goals are reached.
Unschooling helped me to take my kids more seriously and to partner with them in achieving their goals rather than worrying so much about them not fulfilling my goals for them.
Elizabeth wrote:
| The fact of the matter is that kids who want to go to college will have to take tests to get there and unschooled kids are going to be very surprised by the reality of standardized tests after years of nothing but narration. |
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That doesn't seem to be true for all the unschooled kids I have heard of. I do think, however, preparation in test taking is a good idea for a student who is wanting to go to college. It is a great idea to take some classes during high school that have testing as part of the process.
Elizabeth wrote:
| Even the writing on those tests follows a formula. |
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What tests are you thinking of? SAT and ACT writing portions? These can be prepared for in about six weeks. Really.
Elizabeth wrote:
| And colleges are adamant that those scores count for more for homeschooled kids and that they take more of those tests than a kid in school. Some unschooled children might do just fine on SATs and SAT 2s but I will pursue a more disciplined approach in the future with my own children, dedicating table time to the basics that aren't likely to occur to delight-directed kids but certainly occur to the college board. |
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I think this can be a good idea too, but I find myself reluctant to assert it too forcefully because it isn't the only thing that works and not all kids are bent on becoming educated for college admission. For some kids, this kind of approach really shuts them down and it becomes a source of conflict that undermines all those great years of self-directed learning.
Just my humble thoughts today.
Julie
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Elizabeth
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Sigh...it's been my experience that unschooling in my household didn't work. My first child reads voraciously. He has read every single book in the Sonlight catalog except the British Lit. He is quite self-disciplined: he has an amazing weight training and speed training schedule devised on his own. He eats a very controlled diet of his own choosing. He works a job coaching and training young teams about 20 hours a week. But, left to his own devices, he didn't choose to do math (until about a year ago--when he finished all of math in a year), science (except for simple nature study), or a foreign language with any consistency. He's seventeen, a junior and wants to go to college in fall of '07. He has been told by admissions counselors and coaches that he needs standardized tests in math, science, and foreign languages as well as literature and history in order to validate his reading list. We're finding that history and literature tests are very biased towards liberal thought. And, now that he has the desire to do math, science and a foreign language in order to get into college, he's cramming--and that's not exactly a great learning method. Unschooling did not inspire laziness, per se. But it did encourage intellectual sloppiness. I don't really think we can generalize from each person's experience. For this child's entire life, his father has worked in athletics. If his father were an English professor, he might have had a different sense of what was important. If he were a writer or a biologist or a rocket scientist, the environment would influence the son differently. He had great art around him and he does draw often and well. He is surrounded by books and he has read them. And he's one heck of an athlete. But there are gaps and holes he wishes he'd filled. And frankly, I don't think a child can be held accountable for those gaps. I think his parents can.
Mine aren't children who want to work their way through Math U See at ten or who ask to pursue a classical curriculum. They want to play soccer four or five hours a day or they want to video games to the detriment of reading.
Unschooling works wonderfully well for some people. They are parents who are able to follow the rabbit trails consistently and ensure that the time is spent constructively. Somehow, they manage to make sure that all their children receive a well-rounded education. We adopted unschooling after an early start of unit study and Charlotte Mason methods. In my house, we've had six babies in ten years, my husband travels three or four days a week, and math and science are not my strengths.
I never leeft teaching the faith to chance--neither formal catechism or teaching the truths in our day to day living. I didn't unschool character training; it was very deliberate.Thank God, my kids learned that very well.
I have no doubt that they will succeed in every sense of the word. I even think we'll get this college thing conquered to his satisfaction. But I would give dearly to be able to spare him the angst he's suffering now. And I could have, if we'd been more methodical. For me, in my house, with my children and my husabnd,a concentrated table time in the morning, followed by delight-directed afternoons, seems a more prudent course of action and a better stewardship of the precious time we have.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JoannB
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Thank you ladies for the kind advice and for not throwing tomato's at me! I've printed off all the responses and will read them on my treadmill....have to burn off that Thanksgiving meal.
Happy Day,
JB
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Cay Gibson
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WJFR wrote:
| we brought Liam back from college yesterday and he just woke up so I better go make breakfast! |
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Willa, how is Liam doing in college?
I've been anxious to hear.
I'll bet you're seeing the fruits of your hsing no matter which method you used.
Elizabeth wrote:
For me, in my house, with my children and my husabnd,a concentrated table time in the morning, followed by delight-directed afternoons, seems a more prudent course of action and a better stewardship of the precious time we have.
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I don't do well with guilt. If I allow it, it can overwhelm me. Using this method I won't look back years later and have regrets. It also allows me to cover all the learning styles so the structured, academic child doesn't get sucked into a fly-by-the-seat-of-her pants learning-style and the unschooling child doesn't get bored and frustrated by doing academics all day. Since I'm not often parlez to which child learns best with which method (I see where I missed the boat with my oldest), it gives me a chance to expose them to all of it, gives me a sense of discipline, and allows us to move on with no regrets. I've used tutors for this very reason.
That's important to me because there is too much to enjoy and benefit from in life than to live with regrets...of which I already have many.
Tests are just a part of life. My oldest ds has worked in a grocery store and is now at a fabrication shop. He took tests for both jobs.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Willa
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| I don't do well with guilt. If I allow it, it can overwhelm me. Using this method I won't look back years later and have regrets. It also allows me to cover all the learning styles so the structured, academic child doesn't get sucked into a fly-by-the-seat-of-her pants learning-style and the unschooling child doesn't get bored and frustrated by doing academics all day. |
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I find myself agreeing with ALL of you. Scary, I know . The way Cay described it is sort of how I'm looking at it too, though as I explained my minimum seat time is even less than Cay's. If we do even 3 hours of seatwork a day, I find that my kids' energy for their own neat little projects goes way down. So I'm trying to find the minimum balance right now. When does my parental stepping-in actually diminish motivation rather than increase it? How can I tell when I'm micro-managing TOO much, OR not enough?
I started unschooling again this fall because I felt that we were losing that creative energy that propelled my older kids. My 17yo and 15yo have both written full length novels. My 12yo and 9yo won't even sit down to the keyboard unless they have to or there's a computer game on the screen On the other hand, my 17yo and 15yo are behind in math, while my younger ones are ahead. Now is this just temperament and natural ability, or something to do with how I was homeschooling during their formative years, or a bit of both? Do I naturally order my homeschool around the needs of the particular kids I have at the time?
I often think that ALL homeschoolers are using different balances of freedom and structure at different times in their lives. Sometimes, people who are NOT unschoolers use the term "unschooling" as a catch-all term for the "freedom" aspect of their homeschooling. I've done that. But someone who calls herself an "unschooler" probably doesn't see it quite that way, ie she would still call herself an unschooler even if she was doing some parental steering or direction. So I'm trying hard to see how "unschooling" can be a term that's broader than just "letting the kids do what they want" because obviously, that's not exactly how the unschoolers on this board see it.
IE Suzie Andres writes that she requires math and catechism before her son can go and play with his friends. Plus, she sets goals with him at the beginning of the year. Alison McKee writes that she had recurrent conferences with her husband -- "Should we intervene?" "Is this enough?" during the times when milestones didn't seem to be getting accomplished or during "down times". But they could usually find evidence that when one interest was on the wane, another activity was cropping up that seemed just as meaningful as the "schooly" things they would be tempted to put in its place.
I suppose successful unschooling has to include this kind of vigilance and a kind of foresightedness as well. My daughter's plans for her future include college, so if I call myself an unschooler I still have to be there to support and help motivate her to reach those goals. Now, it gets trickier when a child isn't SURE what his goals are. My 17yo doesn't know what he wants to do and so part of his "unschooling" needs to be exploration while not limiting his possibilities for whatever he might end up wanting to do. It's interesting though, our academic hiatus this fall has allowed him and I to focus more on occupational things for him -- he has become more willing to do his math, for instance, because I've backed off pushing him and am instead doing more "big picture" discussion with him about how math may perhaps be a tool he might need to use. So he's moved more towards "owning" his future which is I think what Leonie and Julie are talking about.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Willa
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ladybugs wrote:
Today is Sophia's birthday!
Anyway, I wonder if unschooling is a draw for certainly personality types?
My Isabella has always marched to her own beat. If I were to really press her in terms of fitting into traditional roles, I think it would squash her. I don't know what God has in store for her. What if she is to be a missionary? What if she is to be a mother of 10 boys? I figure that God wired her and since she's not sinning in terms of those choices (kwim?), then she's Isabella. |
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Hey, Maria, I hope Sophia had a great birthday!
I think that your post brings up (at least) two interesting things to ponder.
One is the issue of personality types. Yes, we homeschool partly because we want our kids not to be squashed. We want them to meet their own, unique potential.
The other thing is the issue of sin. We don't want our homeschooling/unschooling to become the occasion of sin for our kids.
Furthermore, we have to recognize that to some extent "education" is ordered towards being a functioning member of society. So there's always that to keep in mind.
It seems to be a balancing act. I personally like to keep the "liberal arts" ideal in mind, even while I am trying to recognize that different people will be moving towards those ideals in different ways at different times.
In Gatto's book he makes a case that "whole" education is about more than academics. It's about community involvement, family culture, "dialectics" or discussion of important issues, and also independent study. He also makes the case that a lot of what schools do is not about education but about crowd control and propaganda. I suppose that whether we call ourselves "unschoolers" or not we want to separate TRUE education from the artificial, degrading methods that are often put in its place.
I like your idea of looking at the CHILD for what she is and I suppose that's the essence of unschooling. Alison McKee said that she would look at her kids and say to herself, "Show me the way," and as Catholics we can say that to our kid's patron saint, guardian angel and to the Holy Spirit as well. In some ways, when I think in those terms I realize that I lack trust of MYSELF to do what's right for my kids and that this is an ego problem -- I am relying too much on MYSELF rather than on God. If that makes ANY sense at all
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Willa
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juliecinci
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Elizabeth, I hear your weariness and angst at having followed a course of instruction and then regretting it. I have regrets too and I hope I didn't communicate that I believe unschooling indicates non-schooling or the only "right" schooling.
For me it means not relying on the methods of school to achieve a life of learning.
Preparation for college is a high priority for us and our family. My oldest has never wanted it as much as we wanted it for him and today he is just not prepared nor interested. So instead of worrying about it, I am learning to enjoy who he is and trust that his timetable and goals will make themselves known over the next several years. This has not been a sanguine transition, however. I have questioned every choice we've made, I have agonized and have even gone to a thearpist to sort it out.
For my next set of kids (all the way down to the 9 year old), we are in constant dialog about what it takes to pursue goals. We do have some time that is "scheduled" - that is, we do some copywork, dictation, writing, art, reading aloud, math time, history and so on each week during the mornings. I have chatted with each child and talked about what skills support what kind of future and choices.
What's so different for me since my days of SL is that I used to organize the schedule and then I would subordinate other plans to that schedule. So if someone wanted to play Monopoly, that would take a backseat to math books. That is no longer the case.
Today, I try to give my kids my full attention in the mornings. I have in my mind areas that I hope to bring to them (math or history, reading aloud or creative writing) that they will find enjoyable and good for skill building. They trust me because I have made it clear that we are not at odds, but I take their desires and interests seriously.
I keep a blog record for myself so that I know what we are doing together and what they learn on their own. As they approach high school, we do have things we hope they will cover to prepare for college. But the discipline to make this happen is still mostly in their court. I provide support and reminders and help. I don't use coercion.
And if a child shows deep resistance or anxiety or lack of interest in anything I offer, he or she is not "required" to do it.
My husband and I have come to the point where we don't see 18 as the automatic age for college, either. So the time table of high school might be longer for us.
Anyway, just wanted to say that I understand your concerns and share some of them really.
Julie
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Julie
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Cay Gibson
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juliecinci wrote:
| ...we are in constant dialog about what it takes to pursue goals. |
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Parenting is a constant dialog between dh/dw and dc. Constantly! Never-ending. I agree with you, Julie, but.....
...for me to have constant dialog instead of enjoying the time spent in the present moment leads to second guessing and doubting my educational choices. That is what I find the most wearisome.
I don't want to be in constant dialog about my decisions. Though I strongly believe in seasons and change, I find it wearisome to be constantly flip-flopping between educational methods. I look over the past 9 years and I have a strong sense of what works around this household in the educational department and what just falls flat on its face.
I don't want my dc to think Mom is inconsistent or indecisive (though I do my share of flip-flopping). I choose to go forward. As long as I'm learning, my dc are learning.
Now, I know you weren't implying any of this, Julie. I'm just sitting here (suppose to be working on something else) but thinking of how much dialog I've done on this subject and realizing that I've found what works for my family. I find peace in that.
But I know there are beginners who are where I was years ago; sorting through theories and methods, realizing for the first time perhaps that everything they know was learned once they left the classroom behind. It's an enigma. Life is an enigma. Why would we suspect it to be any different? Our children's futures are at stake! Of course we worry and fret.
Hopefully we all finally arrive at a point when we realize that we've offered our ALL to our dc and we've done the best we could with what God has given us. When they graduate or turn 18 yrs of age, we have only gotten them started at the beginning of the road. We find nourishment in the Church's teachings and rest in the realization that our dc still have a lot to learn in life. We have only weaned them, now they must seek the milk of knowledge for themselves.
Looking back, I realize that my parents were not responsible for my education. True, they made me rise and shine every morning and go to school. True, they made sure my homework was done and, yes, they helped me with projects. But, in the end, my education was (and still is) up to me. Perhaps hsing parents are much too hard on themselves. We take the responsibility of our dc's education upon our own shoulders. It isn't even our education to shoulder. It's theirs! Let's make it theirs! In the grand plan of things, my education is my responsibility and no one else's. Perhaps it's better to teach our dc this reality than anything else.
Elizabeth, I think that character training will serve your dc further in life than any amount of algebra and Spanish can.
juliecinci wrote:
| My husband and I have come to the point where we don't see 18 as the automatic age for college, either. So the time table of high school might be longer for us. |
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This I agree! Why do we throw such parties and rave about the 86 year old who goes to college and receives her degree? Because, it shows us all that none of us are too old to learn, to pursue, to achieve. That's the beauty of life. It's never too late!
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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ladybugs
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WJFR wrote:
It seems to be a balancing act. I personally like to keep the "liberal arts" ideal in mind, even while I am trying to recognize that different people will be moving towards those ideals in different ways at different times.
In Gatto's book he makes a case that "whole" education is about more than academics. It's about community involvement, family culture, "dialectics" or discussion of important issues, and also independent study. He also makes the case that a lot of what schools do is not about education but about crowd control and propaganda. I suppose that whether we call ourselves "unschoolers" or not we want to separate TRUE education from the artificial, degrading methods that are often put in its place.
I like your idea of looking at the CHILD for what she is and I suppose that's the essence of unschooling. Alison McKee said that she would look at her kids and say to herself, "Show me the way," and as Catholics we can say that to our kid's patron saint, guardian angel and to the Holy Spirit as well. In some ways, when I think in those terms I realize that I lack trust of MYSELF to do what's right for my kids and that this is an ego problem -- I am relying too much on MYSELF rather than on God. If that makes ANY sense at all
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Hi Willa!
I agree with everything you posted and I do think that BALANCE is the key. Perhaps, I sounded "hippy-ish" in regards to my approaches for spelling and that I kinda have a "whatever" attitude. I didn't mean it to sound like that. Perhaps, too, it sounded as if I abandon them to themselves. No...I try to pay attention to them and what they're doing and talking about. I then pick up various books at the library on subjects of their interests...or computer games...or articles of the internet. Last year, when Juliana was six and I was wondering how much she was mentally ingesting, she asked me a question. I told her I didn't know the answer and she said, "Let's research it." Now, I was thrilled when these words rolled of her tongue because of my four children, she is the quietest.
Unschooling, to me, can actually be very fatiguing because I'm always paying attention - or trying to. The way you describe the Gatto book, Willa, is how I would describe my educational approach. I think that I am forming a whole person. I want them to have all the strengths that I believe they will need to be a fully, functioning and Catholic member of society. I am watching them to determine the best approach for those things...whatever method that may take.
Alot of time it really is spent in discussion. I have been amazed at what has been learned that way.
Last Saturday night, Marie Bellet was here in town performing. I took Isabella with me, as she loves Marie Bellet and we enjoyed her concert. I have to say Marie Bellet is a very beautiful person. She spent time with Isabella talking with her...and at one point before the concert started, even went up to her and sat next to her and spoke with her. Wednesday night, Isabella was having a hard time falling asleep. I laid next to her and we talked and then we somehow ended up singing Marie Bellet songs for 15 minutes or so. After we finished, we chatted some and then I brought up some things that I would like to see from her since she is growing up...One was, I want her to read aloud to me more. She agreed. I think, when I call myself an unschooler, it has to do more with my approaches...sometimes, I can reach my kids with what looks like more traditional schooly type things and sometimes, I can't. For me, with my children, I have to read the moment and sometimes, think on my feet...
Anyway, I got to sleep in today and should really go. I probably more rambled in my response but wanted to write back as the rest of the day is pretty busy. We're having company tomorrow...and I'm hoping it won't be stressful but I'm feeling it already.
My best to all.
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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Elizabeth
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I think maybe semantics are a huge problems here. We've never done "school at home." From the beginning, I was determined that our methods of education wouldn't look like school at all. I've also never followed the Sonlight teacher's guide. When I was conscientious about Charlotte Mason methods and Sonlight reading lists and the occasional unit study, we were not unschooling, imo, nor were we doing school at home. There was a balance and a spirit that served us well. And there were days when the plans were scuttled because of sleepless nights, teething babies and breast infections. But the underpinnings were solid CM and literature.
Then, we drifted. For whatever reason, some of those habits fell away and I adopted a more laissez faire attitude. That was where we slipped too far along the continuum towards nothingness instead of a meaningful learning lifestyle. There were still great books, great art and lots and lots of love. But there was a lack of focus that comes with 9 people all doing their own thing when seven of them are really too young to be determining how to spend their time. I was mired in postpartum depression and the chronic pain of a c-section gone awry. Unfortunately, all this happened just as my first child began high school.
Kim Fry and I talked about this recently and she's given me permission to quote her here:
You know my thought on this has always always been that not every child will go to college. At least not all with go right out of hs. HOWEVER, and you can quote me on this since I have to log out and in to do it myself, no child should have to make that decision by default. The doors should be open and if they choose not to go through them, fine. But that should not be because they CANT due to faulty preparation on our part. This type of unschooling is precisely what the encyclical on education warns against. Children, due to their (and our) fallen nature, may know what interests them now but are not equipped with the perspective to know what will be important to them ten or twenty yrs hence. If they were they wouldnt need parents you know? At some point our parental experience needs to kick in and say you really need to know this. It may not make sense now but you will thank me later. We dont need to be ugly or killjoys to do that either. Being matter of fact and using short lessons is fine. But until you get further down the road of life you can't know for certain what tools you will need. This ascribes to children an almost mystic *knowledge* that is not Catholic.
I'm all for freedom. We have lots and lots of freedom here. But I'm responsible for the limits of that freedom. The learning environment here must be purposeful. The discipline of a mother who determines to set aside three hours a day to work purposefully with her children is fruitful for all. In our house, CHC materials are the default for that time. And no one really argues about it. Those materials can be put aside in favor of something more interesting and/or timely and then we can return to them. A prepared curriculum, particularly one as gentle as CHC is insurance that education can continue at home depsite our human frailties. There is security in having it there for me and for my children.
We probably won't touch CHC plans at all the next few weeks. We're going to dive wholeheartedly into the Tomie de Paola unit. It will be the first time for two of my children. I don't think they would have thought of this unit on their own. But they love it and it is a family tradition in our home that will be remembered fondly and passed on to the next generation. It is certainly not school but it wouldn't pass muster on an unschooling list either. Actually, it represents what I consider the best of "Real Learning" and for me, it comes at just the right time. I'm eager to return to that lifestyle.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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ladybugs wrote:
| Perhaps, I sounded "hippy-ish" in regards to my approaches for spelling and that I kinda have a "whatever" attitude. I didn't mean it to sound like that. Perhaps, too, it sounded as if I abandon them to themselves. No...I try to pay attention to them and what they're doing and talking about. |
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I would never imagine you abandoning your kids to themselves, Maria. It didn't sound like that at all, to me. I think you're saying there's more to education than 3Rs and I most firmly believe that too. I realize I'm a bit of a bookworm and inclined to escape into reading and writing so in many ways, "unschooling" and those 4 pillars Gatto mentioned are very challenging for me because that makes me feel inadequate. Straight academics fits my personal style much better but unfortunately or fortunately, my kids aren't quite like me and they challenge me to go beyond my own preference.
About spelling.... of all the brilliant, well-read people I know, they divide into two kinds. Those who need their spell checkers and those who don't So I'm a hippy about spelling, too.  Is there anyone who really claims their spelling ability can be attributed to spelling lessons? I've never met anyone.
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Willa
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ladybugs
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WJFR wrote:
| Straight academics fits my personal style much better but unfortunately or fortunately, my kids aren't quite like me and they challenge me to go beyond my own preference. |
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I had to peek back...this is an interesting discussion...
I think the above quote, Willa, really reflects the differences between approaches and a parent's comfort level. For my comfort level, I, too, would prefer this approach. It is easier for me and doesn't require the effort that I currently put in. Otoh, I do have elements of my personality in which I am more drawn to living a lifestyle. For example, if we're reading about Indians then I want to live like them. That living application cements things for me and I see that with my children. Now maybe they get that from me, maybe I impose that on them by how we learn...I'm not going to worry about it, really, because it's working. So, I guess you could say that we "adopt" our interests. The academics, meaning to me, the dissection of subjects, happens in a less traditional approach...read MadLibs and math games...
So to sum up, it would be easier for me to do a curriculum because of my personality type but at the same time, there is a natural part of my personality that lends itself to the unconventional.
Now, to balance...
Better go, though...we're redoing the playroom before my mom and sister come tomorrow.
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Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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Willa
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| Looking back, I realize that my parents were not responsible for my education. True, they made me rise and shine every morning and go to school. True, they made sure my homework was done and, yes, they helped me with projects. But, in the end, my education was (and still is) up to me. Perhaps hsing parents are much too hard on themselves. We take the responsibility of our dc's education upon our own shoulders. It isn't even our education to shoulder. It's theirs! Let's make it theirs! In the grand plan of things, my education is my responsibility and no one else's. Perhaps it's better to teach our dc this reality than anything else. |
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Cay, I loved your whole post. It put into words everything I would say.
I think that as you said we as homeschooling parents have to face our limits, our imperfections. We are on a journey ourselves. We can't go back to our first year and retroactively cancel out our mistakes.
You asked about Liam, so to use him as an example -- I wish I'd been able to give him more opportunities to acquire the kind of life skills that your oldest sounds like he has picked up naturally. It didn't happen. Liam doesn't know anymore about the workings of a car, for example, than I know myself -- and don't ask how much that is
It sounds like he is doing well so far at college, though 3/4 through the first semester is way too early to make a judgement call. But whatever he does in the future, I trust that God has blessed our efforts and that as you point out, he is just beginning the learning trajectory. He is responsible for what he makes out of his life. God gave us ALL imperfect parents. The burden is on the parents to do their best job with the lights they have, and it's the kids' job to take it from there.
I have just read Escape from Skepticism, a very good book that you would probably like. It's quite a bit NOT an unschooling book but it talks about a liberal education and points out that even the kind of education you get at TAC is not an ending point -- it's a START. What we're doing in our homeschools is basically preparing the soil -- imparting habits and dispositions in our kids that hopefully will prepare our children for the world, not primarily the world of our society, but the world that we affect eternally and individually by our unique presence in the Church communion.
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Willa
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Willa
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juliecinci wrote:
| As they approach high school, we do have things we hope they will cover to prepare for college. But the discipline to make this happen is still mostly in their court. I provide support and reminders and help. I don't use coercion. And if a child shows deep resistance or anxiety or lack of interest in anything I offer, he or she is not "required" to do it. |
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Dear Julie,
This is a helpful description of how you do things. It's been how I've tried to approach things with my 17yo this fall.... actually, I've always done this to an extent but recently I've been trying to make it a more primary focus. I realized I wasn't spending enough effort making sure my kids were really on the same page as me rather than just making the right moves.
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Willa
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Unschooling and laziness?
