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Willa
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Since we're asking these questions, I always wonder why if "unschooling" works, why not "unparenting"?
Yes, I know the answer -- you don't have to "school" to provide an education, but you do have to parent to form a child into an adult with character.
Still, if flexibility and following the child's lead work with education, why is it not so with child-raising since after all, child-raising IS the fundamental form of education? (IE the Catechism says that the parental role is the primary and essential one in education)
These are things I wonder about.
I do not qualify to be a radical unschooler, and I have no doubt there are probably some bad examples out there, but the "real" radical unschoolers say that unschooling, and child-directed parenting, are actually highly active and responsible ways to embark on the child-raising endeavour.
They say that it is more difficult, more personal, and more "mindful" not to fall back on stand-bys like punishment, or coercion, or artificial behavioral techniques, to school OR raise a child.
I see some truth in what they say. It is a bit like John Bosco's Preventive Discipline. The best kind of education is the kind that makes the child WANT to be good, to learn, to grow. You want to reach their hearts, not have them obeying for some earthly reward or out of fear.
Does that seem way-over-the-top idealistic? I can be that way, but wanted to bring that part of it up.
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Willa
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folklaur
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Can you help me some more? I am feeling dense. 
Can you paint a picture for me to help me understand how you are MORE involved with your kids if you are unschooling?
And - what to do about kids who really would just play on the computer all day? (Is that an option?) I know, the idea is they will get bored, but I have an Aspie, and one trait of that is very focused and limited interest in things. How does it work then?
And what do you do if your child WANTS to trace letters and get workbooks?
I really, really want to "get" this...but the I start to really doubt myself and wonder if our parental duties as set forth by the Catechism and Unschooling are mutually exclusive. Obviously, some of you moms - whose opinions I trust! - make it work. But I just have trouble seeing how?!? 
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Mary G
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Laura, I'm no expert but I think unschooling does make you more involved with your kids BECAUSE you are letting them lead (and therefore getting to know each child as her or himself); I think a misunderstanding develops because folks will say "you plan less, it's less parent time" -- but that's not true as you still need to make the appropriate resources available to each child ... my son might want to study the gods of ancient Egypt -- so I need to help him find resources that will work that he can understand -- tales rewritten by Geraldine McCaughrean or DK books or take him to the museum or whatever. AT THE SAME TIME, my daughter might want to look at what they're wearing or what they ate -- again, we'll find the appropriate resources that will allow her to delve into this area ... so it is more time and interaction with each, but it's child-led...
Does that help?
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SallyT
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Leonie --
Well, I think that people naturally tend to define themselves AGAINST whatever they perceive the prevailing culture to be? Or maybe it's just people who for one reason or another fit a certain contrarian demographic . . .
For example: when we lived in Utah, also a very religiously-charged climate, there was a strong tendency among people who were not Mormon -- especially if they'd grown up there, and super-especially if they were ex-Mormons -- to define as postive ANYTHING that wasn't Mormon. I know people who took up smoking as teenagers as a way of tagging themselves, when walking down the street, as not-Mormon.
Here, it's funny -- I tend to think of the culture as secular-with-church-add-ons, so we define ourselves, in our little home culture, as a Catholic counter-culture, a Christian culture in opposition to . . . um, the mall, I guess. And stuff like that.
But in the same town, there are these other people -- again, many of whom I happen to like -- who perceive the culture to be saturated with (your favorite political-cartoon-Religious-Right-caricature here): bigoted, intolerant, right-wing haters. I suppose because most of the homeschooling activity is centered around conservative Christian groups, who frankly ARE going to look askance a little at the lesbian couple and the goddess-worshippers, the unschooling group has become a catch-all for people who want to homeschool but not only aren't Christian themselves, but have an active grudge against Christianity.
And with regard to what Mary is saying about parent involvement -- I think that's right on. Unschooling is a collaborative effort, which means that YOU are there collaborating in one way or another, whether in an advisory capacity with an older child, or doing things, or going places. Part of the challenge is to SEE the learning that's going on in a particular moment, so that you can run with it. You have to be paying attention -- not that you wouldn't, anyway, but I find this more of a challenge somehow. I work at home as a freelance writer, and balancing my work time to being "on" with the kids, and/or figuring out ways to make my work a part of their learning (like talking to my oldest child about how you go about getting something you've written published) is more challenging when I'm not just handing them assignments, or saying, "Now we shall do a science experiment, and then half an hour of history" -- which I've always been lousy at doing in any case.
Got to make somebody a sandwich -- and Michele, it's always nice to see you, too!
Pax,
Sally
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lapazfarm
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SallyT wrote:
Here, it's funny -- I tend to think of the culture as secular-with-church-add-ons, so we define ourselves, in our little home culture, as a Catholic counter-culture, a Christian culture in opposition to . . . um, the mall, I guess. And stuff like that.
But in the same town, there are these other people -- again, many of whom I happen to like -- who perceive the culture to be saturated with (your favorite political-cartoon-Religious-Right-caricature here): bigoted, intolerant, right-wing haters. I suppose because most of the homeschooling activity is centered around conservative Christian groups, who frankly ARE going to look askance a little at the lesbian couple and the goddess-worshippers, the unschooling group has become a catch-all for people who want to homeschool but not only aren't Christian themselves, but have an active grudge against Christianity.
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Do you live near me?
We have the very same issue here. I used to teach at a charter school which prided itself on its diversity and inclusiveness. Basically everything was acceptable-- except Christianity. And it was so anti-Christian I ended up being very uncomfortable there. But I always saw their attitude as a defensive over-reaction to being in the Bible belt.
As far as unschoolers and parental involvement, I can see it both ways.
There are always going to be those who are lazy and take the easy way, using unschooling as an excuse for lack of involvement.
But there are also the genuinely active, concerned parents who take their role seriously and bend over backwards to accommodate their children's interests. These parents listen to their kids, anticipate needs and interests, provide resources, seek out opportunities, and work very hard to provide whatever their child needs to become educated. Even if it is workbooks and tracing letters!
The point being, it would be much easier to hand a workbook to a child like my ds and say "just do it" and walk away. But to provide him with all of the many varied resources he needs for his projects,to nurture independence, to encourage his interests, and model enthusiasm by learning side-by-side with him...that takes work!LOL!
In every pursuit there will be radicals who take a really good idea and twist it into something unhealthy. This happens with religion (religious extremists), with nutrition (extreme diets), and with educational philosphies. I think the really radical unschoolers have done that to unschooling.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
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SallyT
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Some further thoughts . . .
Here are two points at which I depart from "radical" unschooling. They're actually two assumptions which I don't share:
1. Institutions are bad.
Clearly I don't think all institutions are bad . . . the Church, for one, is an institution -- militant, suffering, triumphany -- which obviously isn't bad. A corollary to institutions-are-bad, of course, is the belief that hierarchy is bad, including any notion of parental authority. I have known parents who did not want their children ever to do anything that the children did not want to do, and consequently found themselves in the position of trying to persuade a 2-year-old with an ear infection that he wanted to go to the doctor. Now, I want my children to want to do what they must do, as much as is humanly possible -- I like Willa's allusion to St. John Bosco! But on the other hand, "Because I said so" sometimes just has to be a legitimate and compelling reason for somebody to do something.
2. All learning resources are equal.
An unschooling mother of my acquaintance remarked to me once that her teenage daughter spent an awful lot of time reading trashy romance novels -- but hey, reading is reading. Um, no, actually . . .
Here again is where parental thought, energy, planning, and resolve come into play in unschooling. I guess it's not that surprising that many of us are identifying ourselves as Charlotte-Mason-ish, or classical-ish, or Montessori-ish, because all of these philosophies speak, in one way or another, to the QUALITY of what our children ingest intellectually. I think one of the major tricks in unschooling is to set up your home as a learning environment (maybe here I'm being more Montessori-ish?) in which your children gravitate towards the things you want them to gravitate towards, all things not being equal.Unschooling doesn't have to mean carte blanche for everything all day long; it doesn't mean the absence of household rules, policies, or routines. It is possible to put outside the bounds things which you don't want your children learning from -- tv at certain times, on certain channels, or at all, for example. Or having the computer available only at certain times, for a certain amount of time.
It is really interesting to turn all these issues over in my mind, which is really why I'm writing about them -- I'm musing, not lecturing here! But I'm finding this whole conversation so freeing. We began homeschooling when our oldest was 9 and had been in school for four years, and in the beginning I refused to believe that children need to deschool . . . I ended up in unschooling mode halfway through that first year, because it was the only thing that remotely worked for my children. But after a couple of years I began to gravitate back towards the Charlotte Mason philosophy which I had been very attracted to in the beginning . . . only I just couldn't seem to hold to any kind of structure . . . but I felt I OUGHT to be structured, or I wasn't doing my job as a parent, or being faithful to the Church, to which we were all in the process of converting . . . Anyway, entering our fifth year of homeschooling, I'm really trying to work WITH my impulse away from structure instead of against it, though at the same time to keep our focus on great books and truth and beauty and God, because all things are not equal.
So thanks for all the conversation.
Pax,
Sally
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ladybugs
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SallyT wrote:
| I think one of the major tricks in unschooling is to set up your home as a learning environment (maybe here I'm being more Montessori-ish?) in which your children gravitate towards the things you want them to gravitate towards, all things not being equal. |
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Sally, I really think this is part of the key in unschooling - and I like how you phrase it!
I find that in unschooling you're majorly involved with your kids...it's really a beautiful life!
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Maria P
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Leonie
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I agree, Sally.
I think our homes need to be learning environments and that it helps to have "a learning is everywhere" attitude. It also helps to set an example as learners ourselves. 
At least, that is how unschooling works here, right now.
Willa, I see your point - I wrote a post last year, on our blog, on a similar vein. We don't "unparent" but I know we seem to have less rules and have-tos than most of our friends.
Not because we are unruly  but because we take a different tack - your idea of John Bosco and preventative discipline comes to mind. Saying yes more than no. Loving the things the kids love...
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Willa
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Leonie wrote:
Willa, I see your point - I wrote a post last year, on our blog, on a similar vein. We don't "unparent" but I know we seem to have less rules and have-tos than most of our friends.
Not because we are unruly but because we take a different tack - your idea of John Bosco and preventative discipline comes to mind. Saying yes more than no. Loving the things the kids love... |
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Yes, that's what I was trying to say.... thanks, Leonie!
Because this works for us pretty well for parenting, I am more open to homeschooling this way too. I think a lot of Catholic unschoolers come to unschooling by way of attachment parenting. And I would be one of those, though I didn't hear the term attachment parenting until we had already been doing it for years because it was working for us.
I was thinking about Sally's point:
Quote:
Here again is where parental thought, energy, planning, and resolve come into play in unschooling. I guess it's not that surprising that many of us are identifying ourselves as Charlotte-Mason-ish, or classical-ish, or Montessori-ish, because all of these philosophies speak, in one way or another, to the QUALITY of what our children ingest intellectually. |
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This is true of me, and made me realize I am much more unschooly in method than I am in goals or content. To me, real education is something like classical and CM -- I may use unschooly ways to reach those goals, and I do think "real life" and informal playing and activity lays an important foundation for learning, but I can't say "as long as they're reading" or "as long as they're learning" when they're sitting around reading junky books or watching edutainment TV.
And for that reason, I do sometimes do a jumpstart -- if the kids have gotten rusty on the toothbrushing habit, I'll start paying attention to it again, and if they seem to be spending too much of their time in "idle" gear, I'll look for ways to get things moving again.
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Willa
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SallyT
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That's a great way to think about it -- sort of like having "content" and "mechanics" grades on your term paper! We tend to have classical/CM-influenced content, but our mechanics definitely look unschooly a lot of the time. Not always, but often.
Pax,
Sally
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Pricelesslorna
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[QUOTE=cactus mouse] I read something on the other thread that caught my eye, and I was hoping you all could help me. The comment was that "unschoolig is not the same as unparenting."..........
LOL
What people usually call unparenting is what looks like a disconnection from the children, and a reluctance to intervene and offer guidance........
Unschooling doesn't really work like this, as we can't anticipate what our childs needs or interests are and where that is leading them without having a close responsive connection with our children.
Yes they will still learn from the world, and figure lots out, but in a more street smart sort of way than if we are connected and involved.
I have a favourite thing to say when people are asking about radical unschooling and have a misunderstanding about parents involvement........ "Freedom is not real or true freedom without full information" and it is most definitely my role to bridge the gap in information by offerring my children guidance........how? just by being alongside and available to them in their day and activities, playing and participating as much as they are happy for and we can manage, and including them in our work and activities as much as they are interested, and able.
I guess what I'm saying is that unschooling is about relationship as much as it is about learning. This makes sense when researchers document that a secure loving environment is one of the necessary factors for optimum learning to occur esp in young kids.
Well that my 2 cwents worth for now.
Lorna in New Zealand
Dh Steven, ds 8, ds 6, dd 4 and ds 18months.
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Mari
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Angel wrote:
I think if you read John Holt's work and the old Growing Without Schooling magazines, it becomes clear that John Holt never advocated letting kids do *anything* they want -- like not picking up after themselves, etc. And originally "Unschooling" was a word he coined (someone correct me if I'm wrong) to mean simply what we could call "homeschooling." Because people at home weren't doing things like the schools did them.
I think I would classify unschooling as a *kind* of "child-led learning". Unit studies designed around a child's interests would be another, as would Montessori. I think that people who describe themselves as unschoolers *tend* to have fewer limits for their kids' learning than some of the other practioners of child-led learning. For instance, I don't consider myself an unschooler anymore because I require subjects like math and spelling. But I do tend to follow my children's interests in presenting most subjects, I tend to "strew" materials, and I attempt to set up an environment which encourages my kids to develop interests in their own ways.
Another thing that John Holt would often do was sit down and start working on something (the boxes in How Children Fail, for instance) so that kids would become interested and join in, but he would never force them to take part in what he was doing. What I've always understood as unschooling is that kids are often encouraged to learn about subjects that they may not exactly be interested in (like, say, math), but they aren't forced to work on them in the way that other homeschoolers would say, "It's time to do math now" or "You need to do your math before the end of the day" whether the child really liked math or not.
Not sure I've really done a good job of this post. I like a lot about unschooling, but we've discovered that a "pure" form doesn't really work for us.
--Angela
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Hi Angel,
I know this was written a long time ago but just the other night I suddenly felt that we are UNSCHOOLING. We are very much Montessori and do not stick to schedules, tests, etc. but I never thought about describing what we do as anything else but Montessori at home. But someone else commented to someone else on how our 'unschooling' looked great (for them what we do is so UN-traditional-schoolish). I was a bit surprised at this but did not say anything. When I pondered over it later on it made sense as much as it would not have made sense if I were trying to compare it to another persons way of unschooling. Does that make sense? In certain circumstances I would be happy that people consider us as unschooling but if it were that they consider unschooling as 'anything goes' schooling then I am not.
I am sorry for all the families of conciencious unschoolers who might have a bad name becuase of what others might misunderstand what you are doing.
Maybe some non-traditional schools might consider themselves as unschools?????
Blessings
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Mari, mother of 2 loving daughters aged 8 and 10
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Leonie
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I think some 'free' schools consider ther methods to be akin to unschooling - I have read books about the Sudbury Valley School and about the Albany Free School and there appears to be few, if any, academic requirements and lots of free choice...
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Leonie in Sydney
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folklaur
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Wow, it is weird to see a post that you wrote months ago back up in conversation.
RE: "free" schools. My mother used to drive a school bus, for a private school. This was in NJ, in the 70's. The school was the "New School for the Arts." They didn't have grades, or classrooms, really. The directors were from England. It seems to me the closest to a school doing unschooling that I have ever seen.
I used to BEG to get to go there when MY school had the day off. I know now the only reason my parents didn't send me there was 1.They believed in a Catholic School Education, and 2.It was WAY, WAY expensive.
I still remember the times I spent there, thinking these were the luckiest kids on the planet as they had the best school ever.
Huh. I haven't thought about that in a long time. Something to ponder, me thinks....
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Leonie
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Laura, you might be interested in the books I mentioned above ~
Free At Last
Teaching the Restless
Making It Up As We Go Along
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Willa
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cactus mouse wrote:
RE: "free" schools. My mother used to drive a school bus, for a private school. This was in NJ, in the 70's. The school was the "New School for the Arts." They didn't have grades, or classrooms, really. |
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I went to a middle school that was a modified version of this. It was a charter "alternative" school back in the 70's in Anchorage Alaska; I came in on the founding year.
It was interesting to see the school transition from the idealistic early days of self-directed learning and student-planned classes to a slightly more traditional format as they realized that quite a few of the students were slipping through the cracks in various ways (sometimes literally --cutting classes etc). It was an interesting group --- some "troublemakers" who didn't fit in a standard school, others were self-directed creative types (I remember one group of kids spending the whole day constructing an imaginary city) and others like me were dreamy underachievers who lurked in the library.
It was funny that I loved the school because it let me take Logic and Latin and Greek Mythology for classes! I was a proto-classical unschooler even back then I guess.
That's still sort of how I run my homeschool.
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AMDG
Willa
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SallyT
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It is funny to see this conversation come back up -- I think this was the first time I'd posted on this forum, besides my introduction.
It's also funny how people respond to the term "unschooling." It's a long story, but some time ago I got all involved in a conversation at Martin Cothran's blog, [URL=http://vereloqui.blogspot.com]Vere Loqui,[/a] and people ended up visiting my homeschooling blog, in whose description at the top the word "unschooly" appears. My visitors were mostly non-homeschoolers; for some reason several of them were really, really bugged by "unschooly." They kept suggesting that I say "non-schooly" instead -- like that's so different. I guess maybe they wanted me just to go ahead and ADMIT that really I'm locking my kids in a closet or something.
It was a bizarre conversation, because I'm not really that much of a classical homeschooler (just a classical-ish/Charlotte-Mason-ish/Montessori-ish/unschoolish one), and I was jumping in to defend Cothran's proposal for a 4-subject K-8 curriculum. Even though I think we might disagree on methodology, I felt that I "got" what Cothran was talking about, and that in many ways it described what we actually do. We DO do four core subjects on a consistent basis: language arts, math, Latin, and music -- I'd just never really thought about it before. I found myself getting too wound up about the conversation and letting one antagonist get under my skin too much, so I had to drop out of it, but I've since been kind of bemused by the fact that I felt so defensive on behalf of a mode of homeschooling that I don't, on the surface, even come close to practicing.
Funny old world.
Sally
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: ??? about Unschooling
