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JennyMaine
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| Posted: Feb 20 2007 at 6:34am | IP Logged
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Tea:
Well, given what you've said about your husband's dyslexia, I don't think it would do any harm if you assume that's her issue and use a program specifically for dyslexics.
If it would ease your mind to see a developmental opthamologist or vision therapy specialist, go for it. But if the issue is dyslexia, none of that will help. Dyslexia, as I'm sure you know, isn't a vision problem. When I had my daughter seen by yet another opthamologist, he gave her a very thorough testing. Then he said to me, "I know this isn't what you want to hear -- there's nothing wrong with her eyes."  I really did leave his office crying.
I strongly suggest you ask Seton about the video program from Texas Scottish Rite - normally this costs thousands, but it was my understanding that it could be gotten through Seton SS. If that is no longer possible, that would be such a shame. Yet, if you can't get it, I suggest you use an Orton-Gillingham based program. If she's not dyslexic, it certainly won't hurt her -- if she is, it could very well change her life. Here are the programs I would look at:
Saxon Phonics
Recipe for Reading
The Sonday System
Or, Hooked on Phonics followed by a more intensive phonics program (even a simple one like Phonics Pathways)
You need a program with a clear daily lesson plan and all the components (sight word flashcards, phonogram flashcards, etc.)
Sound Beginningsis also an Orton-Gillingham program. I almost forgot that one! That would be an excellent choice as well.
Of course, there's the option of the Writing Road to Reading, which is a super program - like I said, it just seemed really intimidating to me. Sound Beginnings or Saxon does the same thing, but holds your hand and isn't scary!
I know money is tight for you, as it is for all of us. But pray about the situation and ask yourself. . .do I want to invest now in a program that would really work. . .or do I want to be sitting here a year from now in the same situation? Keep in mind, it is extremely difficult to implement a living books, CM kind of education with a nonreader! A nonreader cannot sit and learn from a textbook either. If you think you don't have time and energy now to deal with all this. . .keep in mind the snowball effect of not getting her up and reading! That will give you the motivation you need to tackle this head-on. And please, please read "Parenting a Struggling Reader". It is so good!
__________________
--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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time4tea
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Jenny,
Thanks for the list of programs - I had no idea that Sound Beginnings was Orton Gillingham based! I, too, find WRTR to be daunting. Of the two, Sound Beginnings and Saxon Phonics, can you tell me which one you think is the easiest for the parent teacher to use in a homeschooling situation? Right now, I am feeling like a need materials where there is no "guess work" involved, where everything is laid out for me in a straightforward, easy to understand way.
Thanks again and God bless!
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Blessings to you!
~Tea
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Elizabeth
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Tea,
I could have written your note last summer, with just minor adjustments. My slow reader was seven and my distractible eighth grader was more than just distractible. And don't for one second think that I didn't think about giving up on homeschooling. I definitely did.
Now, it's six months later. The baby is here and she has settled into our lives. The week of Stephen's eighth birthday, reading "clicked." He's not curling up with Jane Eyre just yet, but he is definitely reading. And we are still systematically working on it. It hasn't come naturally. Still, I think he was just now ready.
The eighth grader is still distractible and we're still working on it together...
But what would have happened if we'd put them in school? The non-reader would have been in the slow reading group and so grouped probably for the whole year and maybe forever. He would have noticed and figured he was stupid.
The distractible eighth grader likely would have been distracted by trouble. He would have been flagged as a slow student at best, a "problem" at worst.
And they both would have missed hours and hours with their new sister.They would have missed the incredible opportunities in building confidence that baby care has afforded. They would have been gone, growing further and further from us, at a time when we have all grown closer because of the baby.
There's no question that children with learning disabilities present high hurdles in home education. It is harder to teach these kids. But the reality is that they present high hurdles period. You would be navigating the school world with them and it wouldn't be easy--you would have to do it on someone else's agenda. You wouldn't get rid of the challenges, you'd just have new ones.
So, let us keep helping each other troubleshoot. And let us also encourage each other along the way. Those days when we wish the big yellow bus would take them away (or take us away  ) do happen, but that bus isn't always really going where we think it is.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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ALmom
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Tea:
We certainly identify as most of ours were late readers - and most also had vision problems, but they had 20/20.
I know I do not have a lot of time to post right now but please do feel free to PM if you think it would help. I had a mother's instinct that we were dealing with more than just late starters. My children showed other signs as well. Whether your situation is the same or not, I will say that the one thing I did that made a difference was taking a notebook and jotting down everything (whether I thought it was related or not) I noticed. A lot of things came out in this and I saw a wandering eye one time (something no one else has ever seen and I have never again noticed) My mother and many of my relatives have amblyopia (some were missed as children and some of them were corrected before the age of 6 yet returned to them as adults so I certainly had that clue to go by as well). I ended up with 2 1/2 pages of notes and observations - some things I'd never really noticed before - but somehow things that seemed totally unrelated, didn't seem so unrelated anymore and I looked for answers that would address all of what I saw - not just pieces of it. I insisted on going wherever it took to diagnose what I now was convinced was a vision problem (despite every optometrist here saying there was nothing wrong - also other MDs saying the same thing). We found a developmental optometrist 3 hours away and the rest is history. He made a huge difference for our children - all but 2 of ours have no more problems with vision after doing the therapy. One of ours is still too young to know and the other is still struggling so obviously the vision, for him, wasn't the complete answer. We are still praying and seeking.
Homeschooling in this situation is at best an extreme challenge and a definite drag on your confidence as a teacher. Putting these children of ours in school would have been a disaster - but teaching them at home has mostly felt like one huge experiment with no guidance - and I guess in a way that is a grace (one still difficult for me to see) as all you can do is throw yourself on the mercy of God for guidance on what to do and how to help your children.
You may find the site pavevision.org useful for information. It may also help you to know that a diagnosis of dyslexia is after vision problems are ruled out. Now, unfortunately, many of the vision problems not related to acuity are missed. (Our dd had 20/20 but she had convergence, focusing, accomodation, smooth pursuit and fusion difficulties. She was alternately shutting off the eyes so she never lost acuity in either eye. She also had visual closure, directionality, visual form, visual memory and other issues. All of these are resolved.) We didn't seriously pursue diagnosis until she was almost 10 and still struggling to read. That being said - she is fine now as a 9th grader and is one of the most avid readers in our house. The whole process was very frightening to us.
I really do believe that God puts the nagging on the mother's heart and do not be afraid to follow your instincts even with contrary information. We had many, many experts tell us nothing was wrong - and others tell us it was something that made no sense.
I know the developmental optometrists are poohed by the MDs - but I do know it helped us. There was no pediatric opthomologist anywhere near us, so this was the best and only route for us. The opthomologists in town would still say it was all in our head - but I don't care because it worked for us and our dd is no longer fighting a frustrating battle to learn. This may help you understand why there seems to be so much conflicting information. There are so many different kinds of things that can be off and it seems like everyone has their own speciality (and they don't always respect or know about anothers) so it is important for the parent to really decide what makes sense and what doesn't. I wasn't interested in a diagnosis that you could do nothing about - I was looking for clues into how my dd might best be able to learn.
Now that all is said and done, I also had every reading program known (and even methods that I mish mashed from Montissori, etc. using manipulatives) - and when the eyes were not working, it didn't matter, none of it worked. Once the eyes were corrected, it still didn't matter, we could have run with any one of the programs and it would have worked.
With the CHC readers, did you notice a smooth sailing in the first early books, and then a brick wall. We noticed something like this with one of our dc - and figured out the eye skills aren't there yet to deal with how busy it is on the page. (Notice the small print, the close together words and sentences). I took a sentence my dc was struggling with from this book and wrote it really, really large and well spaced on a seperate sheet of paper - and suddenly it was doable. Well, that tells me the eyes aren't ready for that fine print. Now I'm in a quandry because I have to report for the state next year, none of the state's experts recognize my dc particular eye problem and I somehow have to do something to meet the letter of the law- and hopefully not overstrain unprepared eyes and still move forward for this child's sake. We get really creative here - I have bought a magnifying sheet to use - but I also strictly limit the demands I place on his eyes and I am looking into alternative means of recording progress from the written type things (right now I'm purusing Montissori). This particular child is 7 now but since he just turned 7, I don't have to worry until next year. This year I have totally backed off on demanding that he read aloud to me. I read aloud to him and I am trying to do more fine motor type things that are not writing (more pre-schoolish) so that he doesn't struggle like some of my others with lagging fine motor/eye hand due to vision being delayed.
I've been reading Elizabeth's book and realizing how much we need more outside time, more art and more PE. I'm trying not to make huge changes right now - financial stress is very real when you've bought a thousand different things trying to find something that works for your dc and payed out of pocket for therapy for 5 dc. I try to remember what is really important, that my dc work will not look like the stuff I see on this message board (at least not now) and if mine are not getting all kinds of accolades for excellance right now, they need encouragement from me and my pride has to take a back seat to what my dc really need and I need to remind myself over and over again about what is most important. I also struggle daily with discernment - I do not want to use my dc struggles as an excuse not to push them to do their best, to sell them short, etc. but I must not provoke them to frustration and self defeating thought patterns. They will learn in their own way and in their own time and we celebrate the milestones. I never know for sure if I've judged the situation properly - and the tension of self-doubt can become immense. If we had done this instead of this, would these have become problems, etc., etc. It is hard when no one believes the vision problems were real - or that you caused them because you pushed your child too soon or you didn't give enough disciplined work soon enough. To be quite honest, I really don't know myself and on bad days, I will find myself thinking along these lines. But, really, does it matter at this point, does it help the child for me to stew about what I might have done wrong. God knows we've done the very best we could with nothing to go on but blind faith. I wish I could tell you some perfect solution - or even for certain which path to take. But there isn't any magic answer.
Anyways this is a long winded hug and promise to pray that God guide you to just the right things to do or not do for your child. Please pray for me as well as we look for answers for our one child who was not helped by vision therapy and for our nephew.
Janet
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JodieLyn
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| Posted: March 05 2007 at 11:35pm | IP Logged
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OK I don't think I saw this.. my major in college was Child Development.. and the statistics I saw at that time said that phonics will not work for a small percentage of the population (I forget the actual number but it was significant.. more than 1 and not more than 20 percent)
I had a child who desperately wanted to read.. she came to me wanting to read.. and yet we did the repeat the same thing every time we tried.. she couldn't remember letter sounds, though she could remember all the letter names, even if she remembered a letter sound.. she could not combine it with another.
We visited a friend who had the Leap Frog DVD "Letter Factory".. it worked!!! she was remembering the sounds of the letters.. we've gotten more of those and they're wonderful dvd's.
So now that she knew letter sounds.. we still struggled. she'd be able to give each letter sound but she could not get them combined. And I started noticing here and there that she would be able to read a word.. without sounding it out.. and she'd memorize the little phonics books we had so she would only recognize the word in that context.
I started with her on sight words only.. we used flash cards.. and randomly would also use the little phonics books. I made my own flash cards with the dolch sight words list and then added in the words from the little phonics books as well.
We didn't belabour the point at all, we'd work with a small stack of cards, not all of them.. I'd show her a word and if she knew it she'd say it and we'd set the card aside... if she didn't have a clue, she would try to sound it out.. once. Then I would show her how to sound it out.. once. Then I'd read her the word. And she would then say the word. And then it went to the bottom of the pile. And we'd go through the pile until she'd remember every word and had it set aside. At first we couldn't even get through a stack because it had been so frustrating to her.. so we also would stop as soon as she started being frustrated.. Being frustrated just locked her down and she couldn't remember what I knew she did know.
After doing this a while.. her sight reading took off.. All the figuring out what wasn't working.. while she was 6 and 7.. she'd only just really started being able to read much just before she turned 9.. here we are one year later.. and she's reading The Magic Tree House books, the American Girl books, a Boxcar Children book.. and I don't even know what all.. she's allowed to read after going to bed.. and there's lots of books in her room. She doesn't get every word.. but she gets alot of them.. and she can read to herself better than she can read out loud.
She still can not sound out words.. and well.. I rarely sound out words myself at this point.. sounding words out is mostly just a way to bridge the time until sight words take over anyway.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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JennyMaine
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| Posted: March 06 2007 at 5:25am | IP Logged
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Tea -
Just saw your last question!
I really think that either program really holds your hand and they use the same method, but it looks like Saxon might be more comprehensive in terms of continuing levels. And I've heard really great things about the Saxon Phonics Intervention for those with older students.
__________________
--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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Corrine
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Tea
I know this is late in coming but I so sympathize with your situation. My middle daughter will be 9 in a month and learning to read has been a long journey. It wasn’t until January that she moved out of Mr. Putter and Tabby style books. Last year it was Bob books. I used Phonics Pathways, dolch sight word lists, and Explode the Code. The first sight word list took six months for her to memorize (she was 6.5 yo). We spent 20 minutes a day working on sight words and phonics, reviewing frequently. When she could read short vowel words, we started spending 2 or 3 minutes a day reading anything she could manage. Bob books mostly; I have a similar set from Learning Language Arts through Literature. It took another year for her to manage long vowel sounds and constant blends. Then we move to Cynthia Rylant’s books – Henry and Mudge, Mr. Putter and Tabby – and increased our reading time to 5 – 10 minutes. Just this year she’s moved on to books like Magic Tree House. I reassured myself that as long as we were moving forward – no matter how slowly – things would work out in the end.
As far as the rest of her school work, I knew she was bright and capable. She just was struggling with reading. So I read all of it out loud- word problems in math, all our history, everything. It wasn’t until this year she could begin to work independently, though I still read most of our history out loud.
I pray you find some peace with this issue.
Corrine
Dh (93), Dd (96), Dd (98) and Ds (01)
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Victoria in AZ
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I've tried Sound Beginnings with two children now. It did not work for us. There is nothing easy about this program in my opinion. And I love the author and wanted to love the program. Maybe it's a weakness in me, but I think learning, especially in early elementary, ought to be fun.
Have never looked at Saxon phonics, sorry.
time4tea wrote:
Jenny,
Thanks for the list of programs - I had no idea that Sound Beginnings was Orton Gillingham based! I, too, find WRTR to be daunting. Of the two, Sound Beginnings and Saxon Phonics, can you tell me which one you think is the easiest for the parent teacher to use in a homeschooling situation? Right now, I am feeling like a need materials where there is no "guess work" involved, where everything is laid out for me in a straightforward, easy to understand way.
Thanks again and God bless! |
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Your sister in Christ,
Victoria in AZ
dh Mike 24 yrs; ds Kyle 18; dd Katie 12; and one funny pug
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JennyMaine
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| Posted: March 24 2007 at 9:02am | IP Logged
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Victoria:
What fun reading program do you recommend for dyslexics?
__________________
--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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momtomany
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Elizabeth wrote:
There's no question that children with learning disabilities present high hurdles in home education. It is harder to teach these kids. But the reality is that they present high hurdles period. You would be navigating the school world with them and it wouldn't be easy--you would have to do it on someone else's agenda. You wouldn't get rid of the challenges, you'd just have new ones.
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Very wise words. I had my special needs ds in school for 3 years. People told me that having a child in special ed was the equivalent to me having a part time job, as regarding the time spent advocating for my child. It was true. I never had so many migraines! Then there was the special ed teacher in 1st grade that gave me the list of things the John would never do. Well, he has met all those milestones and more by having one on one time. No, I'm not a specialist, but what I lack in not having a degree in special ed, I make up in knowing my child best, loving him like no teacher could, and giving him the one on one time that he needs.
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Mary Ann in PA
wife to MIchael, mom to Elizabeth, Becca, Tim, Peter, Andrew, Sarah, Matthew, John, Leah and Joseph
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momtomany
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| Posted: March 24 2007 at 1:18pm | IP Logged
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I just saw the mention of Saxon Phonics. I had considered that last fall, but when I asked here on 4Real, I was directed to try Phonics Pathways instead. Costs much less, not that that mattered, we would spend whatever it takes for John, but I have been very pleased with his progress with it. For a 5th grader, he's still not where he should be, but he's made great progress with it.
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Mary Ann in PA
wife to MIchael, mom to Elizabeth, Becca, Tim, Peter, Andrew, Sarah, Matthew, John, Leah and Joseph
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JennyMaine
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| Posted: March 24 2007 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
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Yes, Phonics Pathways is a good, solid phonics program and covers much more than a basic program would (in terms of upper level phonics & spelling). It wouldn't be my first choice if dyslexia is suspected, but it would work great for just about everyone else. I'll bet it could be adapted, though, to include the dictation component that is so strong in Orton-Gillingham programs?
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--JennyMaine, Mom to Catherine (17) and Sam (15) "The countenance is a reflection of the soul. You should always have a calm and serene countenance." -- Therese of Lisieux
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NachoMama
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time4tea wrote:
particularly with my almost 7 year old. I have been working with her for about 18 months now on lerning how to read, with only very minimal progress to show for it.
She seems to be unable to really retain the information that is being taught to her, so I end up teaching and re-teaching, and re-re-teaching.
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Tea,
I haven't read the other responses, so bear that in mind and I apologize if I am repeating what another has said.
In the above you could be describing my experience with my second daughter. She wanted to learn, she did well in her math and other subjects but she could. not. learn. to. read. Her reading comprehension was non-existant. Finally, we decided that she must be dyslexic and discussed it with our pediatrician. He agreed and sent us for testing at the Scottish Rite Hospital. We had to wait a year before she could be tested. During that year, I read all I could about dyslexia and how to work with her. Turns out, we were using a program based on the premier dyslexia program out there... we were doing so many things right by 'coincidence'.
Even after another year, when she was tested her ability to even identify letters was so bad she had to be vision tested using pictures. They told us we were doing everything right, just to do more work on phonics. We kept at it and sometime in the next year things 'clicked' and she was soon reading on grade level. Today she is ten and reads exceedingly well, definitely on a high school level. That said, she is STILL dyslexic. I see it every day. She still daydreams. She still has comprehension difficulties at times. Not only that, but they told us to be watching for Written Expression Disorder and sure enough that was the next 'problem' to pop it's head up.
The good news is that the VERY BEST PLACE for a dyslexic child to be is at home. 95% of the work done to treat dyslexic children is designed to combat poor self esteem and lack of desire caused by social interaction with teachers and peers who do NOT understand. Even better news is that these are usually SMART children... just learn how to work with them and you will be fine.
I highly recommend reading some books on dyslexia. If you think this might be the problem, feel free to pm me if you like. I can tell you what we did that worked well.
I know it can be hard when they are young and one has a disability and one can't be challenged enough (those are my first two and I have four). That said, I've been homeschooling for ten years, have four kids, and I can't tell you what blessings and joy you'll reap in sticking it out when the going gets tough.
Hugs!
Anne
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MarieA
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I know this posting is late, but you might want to check out these articles. I hope they are helpful to your situation. You are in my prayers. 
Articles by Dianne Craft
Marie
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Maria B.
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| Posted: March 27 2007 at 6:18am | IP Logged
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Wow! I just now had a chance to read this thread. Many of these experiences are similar to mine. We have had several children who were slow readers. It is so tough to "hang in there", persevere and be positive, but that really is the only answer. I am working with a slow reader now (ds who is 9). You would think after going through this with three other kids already, I would be used to it! During the rough times I think of what Elizabeth said, "There's no question that children with learning disabilities present high hurdles in home education. It is harder to teach these kids. But the reality is that they present high hurdles period. You would be navigating the school world with them and it wouldn't be easy--you would have to do it on someone else's agenda. You wouldn't get rid of the challenges, you'd just have new ones."
Support from each other is key. With my first, I felt very alone and was surrounded by moms with first graders reading classics. It was awful. Don't compare.
God bless,
__________________
Maria in VA
Proud Mom to 10 Great kids!
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BrendaPeter
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Thanks so much Tea for starting this thread - I bet you didn't realize how many people you'd be helping out!
I so appreciate everyone's comments as we are in a similar boat - ds12 with convergence problems (yes, 20/20 vision too!) & ds8 who I'm thinking (after reading this thread) is dyslexic as he fits all the criteria.
We have also found "Phonics Pathways" useful. If you're tight on $, it's usually available at the library. We also use "How to Teach Your Child...". I've found that what works for us is to switch over to whatever works when we hit a wall.
My favorite phonics workbooks are the Christian Liberty ones from Rainbow Resources. I switch between these & MCP. Also, I found some color-coded Paper Magic phonics tiles (very inexpensive) in the education section at Walmart. They have been extremely helpful for my ds, especially with blends & digraphs.
Per Elizabeth's recommendation, we are using the AVKO spelling program with my ds12 & it has worked wonders! This particular child has always been extremely auditory so we've developed a habit of "listening" to as much as we can school-wise.
AussieAnnie, your post on St. Sergius was beautiful!
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Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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Elena
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amyable wrote:
| [QUOTE=time4tea] Her vision is 20/20, no problems there. |
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I wouldn't be so sure. My son too was a late reader -didn't click until he was 12 and that was with the help of a trained reading specialist. The reading specialist, Dr. Karen Holinga, had us take him to a pediatric optomitrist who evaluated the small muscles of the eye. This is someone who is specificially trained to do this. It turns out that glasses with a very slight reading prescription was all that was needed so that the small muscles of his eyes did not have to work so hard to read.
I think I would check that out first.
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Elena
Wife to Peter, mom of many!
My Domestic Church
One Day at a Time
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Ready to Give up on Homeschooling
