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Leonie
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julia s. wrote:
| The grace you received by going to the store with your kids came from the ground you laid with them that was not unschooled. |
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I beg to differ.  As parents we do not know for sure what influences our children - is it our unschooly moments, is it our lifestyle, our strewing, our teaching, our example, the Sacraments. Most likely a combination of these things...
I know many young adults who had experienced unschooly education . Some of these are my own sons! Each has applied themselves to university and/or work, and this differs to the unschoolers you have mentioned, so we do have to be careful of generalizations. You and I are making suppositions based on our individual experiences of unschoolers  and so perhaps elements of each supposition are true?
It is a fallacy to say that unschooled children do not stick at university study. It is a fallacy to say that all unschooled children will apply themselves to study. Some will, some won't.
Thanks for your thought provoking posts, Molly and Willa and Julia.
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Leonie in Sydney
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julia s.
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I guess I misunderstood the topic.... I thought it was radical unschooling and not unschooling.
I didn't mean to offend. If my comments came of harsh it is because when I'm at the keyboards these days I am usually very rushed for time. I actually like unschooling because it is a nice blend of structure and freedom.
Leonie said: I beg to differ. As parents we do not know for sure what influences our children - is it our unschooly moments, is it our lifestyle, our strewing, our teaching, our example, the Sacraments. Most likely a combination of these things...
I agree.
I'm sorry if I came of unchristian. I've been asked to refrain from commenting any more so I will.
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Leonie
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julia s. wrote:
| I'm sorry if I came of unchristian. |
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Not at all! I enjoy the discussion - and I think the discussion is a bit about both uschooling and radical unschooling. I've done both. 
I was just trying to point out all the variables.
Love discussion!
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Leonie
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julia s. wrote:
I actually like unschooling because it is a nice blend of structure and freedom.
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Don't refrain from commenting, Julia - I like your unschooling description above.
"A nice blend of structure and freedom." I think each Catholic unschooling family may blend these differently.
When people ask me to define unschooly, I try to tread carefully. It is very hard for me define since it looks different for everyone. Saying child led is not enough for me, and using secular definitions can tend to leave out the role of the faith and get us into trouble with semantics - terms like radical, unparenting and so forth.
I often fall back on this quote of John Holt, to explain how unschool-ishness works in our home -
"Any child who can spend an hour or two a day, or more if he wants, with adults that he likes, who are interested in the world and like to talk about it, will on most days learn far more from their talk
than he would learn in a week of school."
~John Holt
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Mary G
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Leonie wrote:
"Any child who can spend an hour or two a day, or more if he wants, with adults that he likes, who are interested in the world and like to talk about it, will on most days learn far more from their talk
than he would learn in a week of school."
~John Holt
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Leonie -- I really like this quote from Holt (much of his stuff I don't agree with) and I think it's very accurate. I know when my kids spend time with grandparents or older relatives, and really listen to them, they learn much more about wars, history, physics or whatever than if they were in a class for a semester!
I guess a portion of unschooling that I balk at is the independent (and therefore a self-centered) focus for each student. When you have more than one or two how does that work? I guess that's why I wasn't too inspired by Suzie Andries book -- she had one son and had unschooled for about a year (after trying many other methods) before writing her book. And the whole time she kept trying to rationalize her decision?
For me, unschooling is a goal that I'm working toward but don't necessarily want to totally achieve it ....
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chicken lady
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Great quote Leonie!!!
MAry please explain how you see unschooling as self centered.. interesting idea that I personally have never explored!
I unschool 4, and I find allowing each child to bring forth their interest helps the others to expand their own worlds, and helps them reach out of tehir comfort zones and trying new ideas. Let me know how you see it! Love new ideas to ponder.
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Leonie
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Hi Mary,
In a way, I see what you mean. I remember reading "Better Than School" by Nancy Wallace when I was on pregnancy bed rest with my fifth son and wondering if we could provide such a rich, unschooling environment with more than two kids  .
Of course, I eventually realised that it's the principles that stay the same, it just looks different in a large family. 
I find that there is a kind of synergy involved - one child really gets into music, for example, and his passion rubs onto others. Or we visit the zoo as a family and so, as a family, get into more books and activities on zoology.
Or we all watch the same movie , hear the same book read aloud and follow rabbit trails together.
Or mum and dad think something is important and so we go with it, regardless ( making Confirmation lapbooks last year is an example of this. My idea and the kids did end up running with it...).
I guess it is more family centred education (as Linda Dobson describes in "The Art of Education"). That is why the child led description of unschooling alone doesn't work for us .
And why I say we are unschooly and CM and real learning - we don't fit a traditional definition of unschooling. Or of school at home. Or of unit studies or pure CM. But we are more unschooly than eclectic - unschooling has a strong influence in our home....
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julia s.
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Leonie,
I'll try and jump in here again a little more conservative this time. I like "Better than School" (I read it over the summer)a lot. It was the first homeschooling book I read since Elizabeth's book that really spoke to me. In part I loved reading other people's descriptions of John Holt . But I loved how her children were left to just be who they were without the excuses for eccentric behavior. We have a lot of eccentric behavior here .
Nancy had to be careful with the authorities in her community and because of that was careful about the 3 Rs...it may have been an inconvenience for her but I was happy to see how she incorporated it all in a day and week.
I like the relaxed nature of it all and try as I might I can never get that going here. I am usually so tired and very conscious of being pulled in so many directions that even getting read alouds in is tense and more like conducting a circus. And we don't live on an orchard we live where the school bus picks up and drops off. Our house is on display as it sits where there is heavy foot traffic  . I never feel like we can just go in our yard and goof around and I feel very protective of my kids who are clearly singled out in the neighborhood as the odd ones out. The kids here can be really cruel. I think unschooling works best when you don't have to look over your shoulder all the time wondering what the neighbors think or are more thick skinned than I am.
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Julia,
We have lived in lots of different places - my dh is military. I found just time helped with unschool-ishness. The more we explored, regardless of others, the more we felt comfortable.
I am a To Do sort of person - I like lists and I like Doing and Achieving.
What helped me was to write PEOPLE FIRST at the start of every daily to do list , as a reminder.
And to create blocks of " do nothing" time or blocks of time ( usually some time in the mornings) when I am available for my kids and NOT doing other things. Knowing I had set aside this time made it easier to relax, somehow.
I also keep records, for each education authority of the states in which we have lived.
Does this experience help in any way? I, too, liked Nancy Wallace's work on 3 Rs and then explorations as a family. And lots of books.
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Willa
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julia s. wrote:
| I actually like unschooling because it is a nice blend of structure and freedom. |
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Pulling the thread off direction just a bit, but do any of you have trouble doing that "blending structure and freedom"? I think the reason I do sometimes is that so often, structure and freedom are seen as opposites. I liked Anne Lahrson Fisher's phrase "protecting play time" because it seemed to say HOW one could balance structure and freedom in order to make life richer for the children, and how the play was the key thing. She said that you can see the effectiveness of the balance in the richness of the childrens' "leisure time". This seemed to fit in with what Nancy Wallace describes and also a bit with how Charlotte Mason talks, as well.
I like the way you describe your homeschool, Leonie. This unschooler of a large family has a concept called "Collaborative Learning" that rings with me. It sounds a bit like the synergy you describe.
Maybe the (secular) radical focus is on the individual, where a Catholic focus is more on the FAMILY as the basic unit of society. Maybe you can have a Catholic radical unschooling if you concentrate on parenting and how that translates into a lifestyle of learning. Anyway, I explored radical unschooling during this spring and summer; what it ended up being was a deschooling time, and that was wonderful. I think we all needed it after the stressful weeks and months and years we had had recently. We did a LOT of talking and the conversation ended up being a great consolidation and reminder of all the children learn informally by strewing and just living.
However, the synergy started to not work as well, the boys were bored and I think my daughter felt a little unsupported in her educational ideals, and we moved away from a completely open-ended way of learning. We still don't do a LOT of sit-down work; I still think that informal learning sticks better than formal. I don't think that what we are doing now is what RUers would describe as truly radical, but it is working.
I truly think that my homeschool works best when I think of seasons and relationships and don't get stuck too much on one "mode" whether it is unschooling or CM or classical or whatever else. We seem to do various blends in different ratios of all of those things at different times; there is a consistency in that I'm never tempted by strict "school at home" or anything overly textbooky or clock-oriented. That kind of thing does not work for my family in any way.
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Mary G
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WJFR wrote:
| I like the way you describe your homeschool, Leonie. This unschooler of a large family has a concept called "Collaborative Learning" that rings with me. It sounds a bit like the synergy you describe. |
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I guess this is what I mean when I say it CAN be self-centered; the secular version of radical unschooling is focused on each individual rather than on the unit. I would have to do it with a bit of this for one and a bit of that for another. I can't allow each to completely do their own thing -- it wouldn't be fair to all and it wouldn't allow for finding something really interesting that you never even thought would be of slight interest. One part of the unschooling atmosphere that I really like is the idea that we're all (incl the adults) are always learning and that that is the concept to get across to our children -- you never stop. Learning is an adventure goes on throughout your life. Traditional school settings imply that at the end of the year, you're done with that subject and you'll start a new one at the next term. Unschooling particularly allows for continued study of soemthing of interest -- but again, I would have to do it as a family (although one or another might be more into it than the others).
WJFR wrote:
Maybe the (secular) radical focus is on the individual, where a Catholic focus is more on the FAMILY as the basic unit of society. Maybe you can have a Catholic radical unschooling if you concentrate on parenting and how that translates into a lifestyle of learning. I truly think that my homeschool works best when I think of seasons and relationships and don't get stuck too much on one "mode" whether it is unschooling or CM or classical or whatever else. We seem to do various blends in different ratios of all of those things at different times; there is a consistency in that I'm never tempted by strict "school at home" or anything overly textbooky or clock-oriented. That kind of thing does not work for my family in any way. |
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Willa, this is exactly where I am on all this and why I say I'm an eclectic homeschooler -- I do bits of lots of different philosophies at different times -- depending on where my kids and I are and what we want to (or need to -- for instance, sacrament prep) accomplish.
Bottom line, I want my kids to love learning -- to never stop questioning or seeking -- to not pooh-pooh something just becuase they may not like it right now
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molly wrote:
So Willa to over simplify your lovely thoughts, is'nt that strewing???? We constantly encourage our dc to go out of their comfort zones, we just don't force endless hours of repetition or contrived sources of knowledge. And Willa or anyone else please give me feedback on this article as it seems contrary to your position, and my pea brain is trying to process and form opinions.
http://www.unschooling.info/articles/article3.htm |
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Molly, quick thoughts on the article which I read with interest -- I always find Alfie Kohn interesting---
First, it sounded like he was critiquing the limitations of standardized tests or a "cultural literacy" focus in measuring true education. ED Hirsch is the proponent of a core of knowledge ( here's a sample article by him which Kohn refers to a bit scornfully as a "bunch o' facts".
I agree with KOhn about the limitations of standardized testing and cultural literacy as a measurement of true education but I don't scorn them quite as much as he does. They may be insufficient but their limitations are in their insufficiency more than their essential wrongness. Whereas some other measurements he proposes strike me as truly wrong and rather scary -- they would be too subjective and rely too much on the judgement of "experts" whom I have no reason to trust at all.
I would strongly resist any measurement such as this one
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For example, Nel Noddings, professor emerita
at Stanford University, urges us to reject "the deadly notion that the schools' first priority should be intellectual development" and contends
that "the main aim of education should be to produce competent, caring, loving, and lovable people."
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YIKES. Makes me awfully glad I homeschool and don't have to worry about my kids EVER being measured by someone else's view of what competent, caring and lovable people are. (BY the way, to be fair I don't think Mr Kohn was holding this up as an example of a better way: he goes on to say:
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In short, perhaps the question "How do we know if
education has been successful?" shouldn't be posed until we have asked what it's supposed to be successful at.
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So he is saying that we can't determine whether education is successful until we determine what it is to succeed AT, which is a good point.
What is the radical unschoolers' goal in educating their children? I think they want their children to love learning and to learn that learning is inseparable from real life. I also think a strong element of "autonomy" creeps in there.... ie all persons, including children, should have a right to determine their own fate. This is true in one sense, but untrue in another since our Catholic faith teaches us that we are not essentially the pilots of our own destiny. God is. I think children are deserving of the same dignity and respect that is given to adults. However, like the rest of us children are under God's authority. I think you COULD radically unschool with a respect for that truth -- I've seen people on the Catholic unschooling list who are doing this or something very close.
But that emphasis on individual autonomy that creeps into secular radical unschooling throws off my moral compass -- it does not acknowledge the reality of society as I know it, as a community, as a Body with different components each separate but also functioning together, as we heard at Mass last week.
I think you're SO right about the strewing!
Do you think I'm missing something about the point of the article?
I am not an educational reformer, thank heavens, so I don't have to propose general educational measures as Hirsch and Kohn do in their different ways. I would like my kids to have a broad, generous background of knowledge about the world, not just the society we live in today but the past and the future. I would like them to have enough "knowledge" about the world to be able to develop a philosophical habit of mind, ie a habit of being able to look at the big picture and not get stuck in some narrow-focused ghetto of ideas and facts.
Sorry, this is getting rambling and I don't have time to shorten it.
Oh, I wanted to add that I think an unschooling approach -- a free, collaborative, relationship-oriented approach -- can meet a LOT of these goals in a very organic way. I guess I don't completely agree with either Kohn or Hirsch -- I think the truth is somewhere else altogether and is something to do with family relationships and developing a sense of vocation.
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julia s.
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WJFR wrote:
julia s. wrote:
| I actually like unschooling because it is a nice blend of structure and freedom. |
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Pulling the thread off direction just a bit, but do any of you have trouble doing that "blending structure and freedom"? I think the reason I do sometimes is that so often, structure and freedom are seen as opposites. I liked Anne Lahrson Fisher's phrase "protecting play time" because it seemed to say HOW one could balance structure and freedom in order to make life richer for the children, and how the play was the key thing. She said that you can see the effectiveness of the balance in the richness of the childrens' "leisure time". This seemed to fit in with what Nancy Wallace describes and also a bit with how Charlotte Mason talks, as well.
I like the way you describe your homeschool, Leonie. This unschooler of a large family has a concept called "Collaborative Learning" that rings with me. It sounds a bit like the synergy you describe.
Maybe the (secular) radical focus is on the individual, where a Catholic focus is more on the FAMILY as the basic unit of society. Maybe you can have a Catholic radical unschooling if you concentrate on parenting and how that translates into a lifestyle of learning. Anyway, I explored radical unschooling during this spring and summer; what it ended up being was a deschooling time, and that was wonderful. I think we all needed it after the stressful weeks and months and years we had had recently. We did a LOT of talking and the conversation ended up being a great consolidation and reminder of all the children learn informally by strewing and just living.
However, the synergy started to not work as well, the boys were bored and I think my daughter felt a little unsupported in her educational ideals, and we moved away from a completely open-ended way of learning. We still don't do a LOT of sit-down work; I still think that informal learning sticks better than formal. |
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Willa,
There is definitely a difficulty balancing the structure with the freedom. I was thinking about this today about why I get so upset with myself when we "fall behind" and I think it is a few things. I grew up in a working poor neighborhood. Not only was our community poor, but we were literally the joke of the state (there was a popular radio station that used to invent new ways to make fun of us every morning for at least six years). I went to a catholic school that was free to it's parishioners as long as everyone agreed to tithe. Most of the teachers there were not well educated, but they were good at giving the basics and by the time I left there I was very good at reading, writing, grammar, math, and the old catholic standby handwriting .
When I went to a public highschool they were so far behind on the basics. Their idea of a one page paper was so pale compared to what I had been asked for in grade and middle school. But by the time I left I was as lazy as they were. I gave the minimum, but I still did a lot of learning on my own.
So it is important to me to keep up with my Catholic school on some level. I didn't respect the teachers in my high school who most had better degrees than those in my Catholic school. So letting go on the basics in a structured form at the very least is difficult. It's a huge hurtle.
If you don't have the basics down you can't "pass" in this society for well educated. When I went off to college it was very important to me to appear that I came from just as good a background as everyone else. And to be honest, I was prepared in large part because of the basics I learned from my earlier years. I don't want my kids to be known as those homeschooled kids. I want people to remember their accomplishments and their character. I want them to be able to go wherever they want. And everytime I try to loosen the reigns and have more fun just to makes it easier on us I get that grip in my stomache that I'll ultimately be letting them down.
Now having said that this morning I offered my son the option of having a Dragon unit soon. Part of me thinks I just took a leave of abscence of my senses  .
But this is what I'm thinking about and how it relates to unschooling in general.
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JodieLyn
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Julia - one way to deal with that is to have a time set for doing those basics.. when we "do school" that's just what we mean.. we had the kids get out their math, practise writing and practise reading.. but then other things happen as they happen.
on the dragons.. don't forget the knights which would include chivalry I hope to angle toward that one of these days
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JodieLyn wrote:
| on the dragons.. don't forget the knights which would include chivalry I hope to angle toward that one of these days |
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Yes -- everything can lead anywhere. That is what I love about learning!
I do much the same as you, JodieLyn, and probably most of the others who are commenting -- minimum 3Rs, a focus on the faith and then the other things look different at different times.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Do you consider yourself radical
