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mumofsix
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| Posted: April 26 2005 at 10:53am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I think that in real life, in homes with sensitive parents and children, where children are viewed as real persons and they view their parents the same way, some learning expeditions will be child-led and others will be parent-led. Here, on these boards, we have a clearly worded mission statement. So, if we're talking about unschooling here, it's safe to assume we're not using a definition that contradicts that statement. |
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Ah, so these boards are ALL about unschooling? So why have one specifically named thus? 
Jane. (Confused.)
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mumofsix
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| Posted: April 26 2005 at 10:58am | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote: "But I do think "unschooling" describes or suggests an approach to learning (and to childhood?) which is different from other educational models. The differences intrigue me, and raise lots of questions, and that's what I thought it would be fun to talk about here."
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I agree, whatever the definition! In any case, it would ultimately be more interesting to hear about experiences than definitions. (Perhaps a definition would emerge inductively, if anyone still cared.) 
Jane.
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juliecinci
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| Posted: April 26 2005 at 11:07am | IP Logged
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Unschooling as understood by the radical unschoolers on the unschooling yahoo group has to do with providing a "non-school" environment. They spend oodles of time discussing what it means to be an involved parent who creates opportunities, engages in conversations and shares the big world out there with their kids.
The difference between "schooling" and "unschooling" is the methodology. Unschooling means that a child's learning will come through non-schoolish means (without text books, workbooks, classroom conditions, set times and places, tests, grades, requirements, scopes and sequences and so on).
Unschoolers do take lessons (for music, dance, art, sports, cooking, archery, writing, computer programming and just about anything else you can think of) when the lessons are "real life" (not artificially created by a school, and not "for the child's preparation for future.") One of the "litmus" tests of lessons has to do with whether or not adults have access to the same kinds of classes or lessons. If the classes are taught by passionate experts who impart their love of the subject, then classes or tutoring is seen as conducive to unschooling. The decision is seen as the child's not the parent's.
Real life is explored and lived for all its worth. There is a fundamental trust that life is so compelling, learning so inevitable and that a child will explore the world and learn, grow, develop, become a person who sees all of life as open to him or her. With an involved, nurturing parent, the child will gain the resources and abilities necessary to live in the world meaningfully, with skill.
When parents ask if unschoolers "let their kids do whatever they want," the premise is already off. There isn't the typical power struggle in unschooling families because children are valued as having interests and ideas that deserve to be respected and explored. Unschoolers believe that their children have meaningful interests (even when these interests are perceived by adults as "mere" entertainment or as unimportant to a future in college, for instance). They see learning as a holistic encounter with life and that learning occurs when not inhibited or controlled, regulated or organized.
I don't want to get into the "sin nature" discussion. The yahoo list does a great job of discussing the philosophical underpinnings of why we can trust our children in these ways. For me, I came to the conclusion that since I am a parent, the power is already in my court. I can choose to spend my "power" wisely by deferring to my kids and really knowing them rather than power-overing by controlling their behavior. We talk a whole lot more as a result!
That doesn't mean that some kids don't end up interested in following a course of study (I remember one unschooler sharing that her daughter liked following The Well Trained Mind for her reading). What it does mean is that the parent spreads a wide array of real life experiences and resources before her children and supports where those lead.
And amazingly, that does include generous amounts of TV, computer games and video console gaming... which from personal experience has turned out to be highly "educational" in my family despite my prior prejudices against such. 
My Brave Writer business is all about offering real life writing opportunities to kids the same way they might take a drawing class. I teach adults the same way I teach kids. That's why I'm so big on kids wanting to be involved in their growth as writers. Writing doesn't have to be schoolish at all. It can be the joyful acquisition of writing skill for the sake of enjoying the power of authorship, of writing... not just preparation for college.
Julie
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Julie
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Willa
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| Posted: April 26 2005 at 11:10am | IP Logged
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mumofsix wrote:
Maybe we need to develop a new paradigm for Catholic unschooling which marries the wisdom of Catholic teaching through the ages with a modern understanding of children's needs and developmental stages.  |
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I LOVE that, Jane.
I used to read a lot of the old "Growing without Schooling" newsletters ('unschooling' periodical which was founded back when homeschooling was still illegal here in the US). I loved the early ones up till about the time John Holt died, where the newsletter got more slick and less interesting to me.
There was a vitality and spirit of independence there initially, which was very Catholic. Basically, these were all parents that were "martyrs" in the sense that they were resisting a very real government-imposed tyranny of compulsory, lockstep, institutionalized education. Some were secular lefties, some were Christians, but the differences didn't matter so much because they knew who the real enemy was. They all knew they could go to jail for freeing their kids from school, so there was a great solidarity and community spirit.
Back then, "unschooling" meant generally not sending the kids to school and then everyone had their own way of following up on that initial act of moral resistance. How you actually went about educating your kids once you began unschooling was left up to the individual family, and there was a lot of range and diversity.
Perhaps when homeschooling became more widespread and acceptable, "unschooling" was defined more narrowly in opposition to "conventional" homeschooling, where before they were almost synonymous. "Unschooling" as a term became more associated with the secular left and with a Roussean view of the inherent goodness of the child. Also, perhaps, more people joined the homeschool movement that had nothing against "school" itself, but just wanted to get their kids out of bad school situations. Those people might be more inclined to do "school at home" just because that was what they were used to, where the initial homeschoolers were more mavericks and free spirits who wouldn't do anything unless they were convinced it was right
I am an unschooler in that I'm a big fan of John Gatto and others who have criticized the modern institutional school, and in that I definitely pursue a non-conventional form and content of learning with my kids where there is much flexibility, but the term has some negative connotations for me because of the extremes the secular unschoolers have taken it to. I remember reading in Growing Without Schooling a letter by a homeschooled teenager who said he followed a structured Catholic curriculum, and loved it, and felt it had done him a lot of good. He wasn't saying that he thought everyone should do this, just that it should be an option. The responses by his unschooled peers were really hostile and sort of reflexive, and advocated a sort of relativism. I don't think that this "intolerant tolerance" was part of the original unschooling concept, and it was very disappointing to me.
I worry about relativism -- I admit it. I do think that our cultural heritage is important, and I suppose most Catholic unschoolers do too and find ways to create an environment that transmits those riches. "Unschooling" per se seems to be more of a method than a content, so I call myself CM/class ed because I want to remind myself of that content of "cultural heritage"... but I suppose I do use some unschooling "methods" to impart that heritage.
I do believe firmly that homeschooling is different than institutional schooling -- its strengths are very different and more organic. Unschoolers probably take advantage of that organic nature of learning in a way that conventional schools cannot. In that way I feel consider myself somewhat an unschooler. My kids have gotten great educational mileage out of very little, when you look at it from the "institutional" point of view. No set classes, not a whole lot of time spent, no big budget, little testing or lesson plan writing..... still, they've learned SO much more than their schooled peers.
Hmm, put me down as confused in California -- 
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Willa
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| Posted: April 26 2005 at 11:28am | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote: "But I do think "unschooling" describes or suggests an approach to learning (and to childhood?) which is different from other educational models. The differences intrigue me, and raise lots of questions, and that's what I thought it would be fun to talk about here."
Jane wrote:
I agree, whatever the definition! In any case, it would ultimately be more interesting to hear about experiences than definitions. (Perhaps a definition would emerge inductively, if anyone still cared.)
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I would LOVE to talk about "How Children Learn", ie experiences with unschooling in the Catholic home. I guess that aspect of unschooling is fascinating to me. That's what I loved about the early GWS issues.... lots of observation, and sharing of experiences, plus a sort of trust in the child's natural ability to learn. In fact, I don't think I would have had the nerve to start homeschooling at all if I hadn't read all these books and magazines that showed how parents and children could learn together, and learn from each other. It made it seem more like a nurturing process and less of an intervention or intrusion.
Maybe that's why there's a reason for an "unschooling" forum within the "real learning" board..... so as to get beyond the "why do it" or "is it OK to do it" or "am I an unschooler in the first place" to HOW our kids learn in our own experience. I suppose even the most structured homeschool has kids learning things outside the formal school hours, and it does benefit everyone to be aware of how they go about this.
Just thinking aloud, I guess.... anyway, I guess discussing that kind of thing seems very profitable and interesting to me.
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Willa
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juliecinci
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Lol! --Confused in California!
Willa, that cracked me up because I am a Californian and I wonder if some of the attraction to non-traditional learning comes from there. I did grow up vegetarian, after all.
What I've noticed in working with mothers over the years is that the fear of unschooling (in the radical sense) is a fear that they will ruin their children, or that their kids will grow up to be morally degenerate, or that they won't want an education (to learn to do sums or write or read).
These "fears" often come from having been raised in the system of school that told us we wouldn't learn something unless someone "made" us learn it. I will be much more interested to see what our kids say about education once they are adults.
Radical unschoolers of the Sandra Dodd crowd would say they are not NCP parents (non-coercive) nor do they appreciate the teachings of TCS (Taking Children Seriously). They use the term "mindful" parenting and I like that term a lot more. They are urging deep engagement with the child, truly looking at the world from behind their children's eyes. Recently there was a big discussion about whether you were an unschooler if you controlled food and TV (this one comes up once every six weeks, I swear).
The bottom line was that many unschoolers wind up there, but that the definition doesn't say unschooling means no chores. Unschooling is about not doing school at home. Period.
In our family, we saw that many of our formerly held assumptions about children and chores, TV, food and so on underwent some reevaluation once we started to pay attention to how our kids saw their lives. We've had hours and hours and hours of discussion about how to handle the huge lawn we have, the messes in the house, clean up after dinner and more. In the past, we used to set up a system and then explain over and over why they had to follow it. Then we'd sometimes punish for failing to do what they should.
Now we try to find out what it is that they are willing to contribute. I remember for four months dropping all requirements and just serving my kids as best I could, with a smile, speaking as I worked - "Let me get that for you" or "I can see you're busy. Would you like me to cleear up your lunch plates?" I didn't make a child get off the computer to come set the table.
Amazingly, in six weeks, the one child who never wanted to help with the kitchen, hopped up from a game he was playing to help me clear the table! His comment, "I've played for a long time. Do you need help, Mom?"
The change was so remarkable that I saw in a way I hadn't before. My ideas for what they should feel hadn't produced that feeling even though it had produced those actions (sometimes). But by stepping back a bit, I was able to regain their perspectives and model the kind of behavior I hoped to foster in them...
And they've really got it now!
We still have chores (we discuss it together and come to an arrangement that works for them...) and we still all mow the lawn. But the stress around these is so diminished. There is much more awareness that if they are not happy with the ways they are to help the family, they will be heard. We will renegotiate.
My now 10 year old took a year off of writing. I'm a writing instructor! He needed that much of a break. I let it go.
This year, I sat with him and discussed the power of having the skill of writing. I told him that we would go at his pace but that I wondered if he could trust me to give him some input and support in growing in this area. He was ready. I had re-established myself as an ally, not a task master. He has made surprising progress and yet is still the one to tell me if it's too much.
Someone asked for real life examples. I hope these give you a glimpse of the shift in perspective. It's not that kids are mature (can make long term, essentially right decisions for themselves at all times). It's that from within their limited worldview, they believe that the way they see life makes sense. I choose to honor that first, and then to gain trust and then to use my life as a model and my perspective as an influence... that's instead of starting with my "right perspctive" and expecting compliance and then lecturing about why it's right and why my kids' way of seeing is off-target and then using punishment to get them to do the right thing even when they don't see it that way.
Does that make more sense?
(And there have been a few occasions where we've imposed our viewpoint... but these are now pretty rare. We haven't needed to.)
Julie
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Elizabeth
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mumofsix wrote:
Elizabeth wrote:
| I think that in real life, in homes with sensitive parents and children, where children are viewed as real persons and they view their parents the same way, some learning expeditions will be child-led and others will be parent-led. Here, on these boards, we have a clearly worded mission statement. So, if we're talking about unschooling here, it's safe to assume we're not using a definition that contradicts that statement. |
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Ah, so these boards are ALL about unschooling? So why have one specifically named thus?
Jane. (Confused.) |
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No, these boards are not all about unschooling. But, if we are unschooling on these boards we are doing it under the umbrella of the mission statement. Note, there is no board here for "Textbooks According to the Teacher's Edition." We discuss formal Catholic classical curriculm and I don't think that contradicts the mission statement, but it's not unschooling. The two can co-exist under the same umbrella. "Real Learning" is perhaps more inclusive than "unschooling." I see families who pursue unit studies and those who pursue classical education fitting comfortably under the umbrella--and we have a board for unit studies; it's called "Rabbit Trails." We also have a board called "Pure CM," but CM is discussed there in light of how she can be used by Catholics.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MacBeth
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So what is the point of having a board for unschoolers?
I suspect that anyone who considers herself/family unschooling will come to this forum for support, ideas, and comraderie, not for lectures about the merits (or lack thereof) of unschooling as a method.
Let's try and make this as supportive a place as the Unit Studies and Pure CM forums are! 
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juliecinci
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| Posted: April 26 2005 at 1:35pm | IP Logged
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I might add (reading Elizabeth's comments) that one of the difficulties with a philosophy of education that defines itself against something else (unschooling, ergo, not schooling) is that one tends to focus on what it is not... and that becomes tedious.
I love this board because those who use classical education or CM or unit studies offer rich, concrete ideas for enhancing the home environment, for bringing learning to life. Not everyone finds the "unschooling" vision compatible with who they are or how their families are constituted. But what is clear on this board is that these families are committed to a living education that is supported and nourished by Catholic faith.
The freedom to observe how other families make learning alive and integral to faith is what makes it fun for me to be here (and I suspect others too). Sometimes we miss nuances of benefit in learning styles different from our own when we are ideologically attached and only relate to those who agree with us.
So I, for one, am glad for the diversity of lifestyles represented here around shared values and only throw my experiences and perspective into the hat as "one more possibility" - not as the right one.
Julie
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Julie
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mumofsix
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MacBeth wrote: "So what is the point of having a board for unschoolers?
I suspect that anyone who considers herself/family unschooling will come to this forum for support, ideas, and comraderie, not for lectures about the merits (or lack thereof) of unschooling as a method.
Let's try and make this as supportive a place as the Unit Studies and Pure CM forums are!"
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I consider some of what I do "unschooling" (as in both child-led and unschoolish) but not all. I enjoy the unschooling bits (and also the more traditional stuff we do) and would have welcomed sharing "unschooling" experiences. The point of talking definitions is that "unschooling" is particularly broadly interpreted and I was genuinely interested in what others mean by this - not trying to be contentious. Obviously I am not an unschooler, so I won't post here any more.
Jane.
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mumofsix
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| Posted: April 26 2005 at 2:39pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote: "But, if we are unschooling on these boards we are doing it under the umbrella of the mission statement."
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Are we?!  I admire the mission statement and there is nothing in it with which I disagree in principle: it is in that spirit that I have dared to post on these boards. However, it is not MY mission statement. It represents a very lofty but for me completely unattainable ideal. My goals are more modest: a lot more modest!
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Elizabeth
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Jane,
I'm really not certain what is immodest about the description of education that appears on the homepage of this forum. We acknowledge that the task is formidable and we do aim high--we're reaching for heaven and I think you are too.
I made a mistake when I opened this board without a clear definition/direction. Lissa suggested the board and, after reading very encouraging posts on unschooling on other Cathoic forums, I agreed there is a place for this board here. And I still think so. The admiinstrators of this forum are spread over two continents. Tim got the unschooling board up, but Lissa has been extremely busy and I didn't launch it properly. Then, yesterday, MacBeth and I recognized that we needed to close the conversation (before your last post was posted) but we couldn't from our computers. It wasn't until after your last post that it was actually closed and not by MacBeth or me. It wasn't closed as a reaction to any pone post in particular. That's just the way this works--we're spread out over several time zones and we all have real lives and things happen when they can happen. Hopefully, everyone can take a deep breath, believe the best about each other, and no offense will be taken.
I still believe there is a place for this board. It fits nicely within the parameters of the mission statement.But it was never my intention that this be a place to argue the merits of unschooling or quibble over definition (particularly an entirely secular definition). Instead, this is a place to go if one wants to learn about unschooling from Catholic women who consider themselves unschoolers or if one wants to share her own unschooling experiences.
Now, I really think we've exhausted the definition discussion and I'm going to close the topic.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Lissa
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Hello everyone! This thread has had a couple of days to cool down, and Elizabeth has kindly assented to my re-opening the topic. Attempting to define unschooling often results in some heated conversation, but as long as we're debating in a charitable spirit and striving to give each other the benefit of the doubt, I think we can handle the heat.
I'm going to post a sticky-note at the top of the forum explaining that there may be threads here which get 'hot' from time to time, but that shouldn't discourage anyone who dislikes debate from joining in on other threads which are concerned more with sharing our unschooling experiences (as opposed to attempting to nail down exactly what unschooling is). I love the flexibility of this board format--we can have several discussions running simultaneously, allowing people to participate in only those conversations which appeal to them. (Big thanks again to our generous Netsmith for making this possible.)
With that said, I'm going to re-open the floor for discussion about the philosophy of unschooling--what it is and how it fits into a Catholic context--for anyone who is interested in joining. I'll start a new topic thread so as to give us a fresh start. I hope Jane will return to share her insights--everyone is welcome! And there are other great conversations about strewing and child-directed studies as well.
Happy to be here with you all.
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Lissa
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Are you an unschooler?
