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Elizabeth
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Faith wrote:
To me changing plans because one is going on a trip or an historical event occurs like the Pope dying so you switch gears is not unschooling unless it is the children who say, Mom I want to keep a notebook on this. To me that is just being flexible!
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But then what do you call it if you read to those children Alice's plan for a twelve page notebook, suggest that we might do it, and then have them write and research far more, begging that we abandon our bug study until later in the year? Where do you draw the line in your defninition? Is it not unschooling because an adult suggests it? Doesn't that defy the idea that we are all learning, all together, all the time? I've learned quite a bit about the papacy this spring. Much of it I learned from or because of my children. And last winter, I went from knowing nothing about sign language, to learning about five hundred signs, all after it was suggested by my four-year-old. Maybe it's not unschooling. It's certainly not school at home.
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momwise
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Thanks Faith and Jane for ariculating so well what I make gobbly-gook out of 
Elizabeth wrote:
| Where do you draw the line in your defninition? Is it not unschooling because an adult suggests it? |
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This is what I've been told.  The problem may be that the term "unschooling" was coined to describe an extreme method (or lack of) and now the purists want to protect the purity of the label.
[/QUOTE] Doesn't that defy the idea that we are all learning, all together, all the time? [/QUOTE]
It does defy reality, yes, and that's why I prefer "Spirit led" or family learning. This leaves so much room to combine grade levels, change plans in mid-stream and really educate to fulfill God's plan for each individual child. OTOH, don't forget that we aren't all learning together *all the time.* Sometimes we must impart something we already know to be true in order to obey the Will of God. We parents may learn something along the way, but we do have some truths that the children don't have yet. This is why Suze Andries makes mention in her book that the faith is something she doesn't consider unschooling.
Come Holy Spirit!!
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Elizabeth
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momwise wrote:
Thanks Faith and Jane for ariculating so well what I make gobbly-gook out of
Elizabeth wrote:
| Where do you draw the line in your defninition? Is it not unschooling because an adult suggests it? |
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This is what I've been told. The problem may be that the term "unschooling" was coined to describe an extreme method (or lack of) and now the purists want to protect the purity of the label.
Doesn't that defy the idea that we are all learning, all together, all the time?
It does defy reality, yes.
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It's difficult to believe that anyone who believes in educating outside of schools would believe that such education--or any education--would be limited only to children. We would have to reject any definition that limits learning or proposing topics of study to children alone. It is absurd to think that only children learn. This is where definition is so tricky. No one who is a proponent of education on this board or any other on this forum would be an advocate of an education left totally up to the child. Faith, I think you know enough about the women who posted before you did to know that they are not talking about that when they refer to "unschooling."
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MacBeth
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Elizabeth wrote:
Michael skipped math in ninth grade. I'm going out on a limb here, but I have no intention of creating a transcript that fits those little blanks. His life won't fit in there. Instead, I'll list what he's done and I'll provide a portfolio explaining it and the rest I'll trust to the HOly Spirit. He wouldn't like a school that insists on blanks anyway.  At the end of it all, he'll have four "years'" high school math. Does it matter when he took it? |
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Can't you just call his math "independent study' for that year?
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Elizabeth
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MacBeth wrote:
Can't you just call his math "independent study' for that year? |
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You mean instead of "goofing off while brain matured"  ?
I have friend who put together a portfolio for her daughter--no grades, no "freshman, sophomore, etc." just an honest summary of what she did and an honest evaluation of how she did it, with some samples thrown in. She got into every college to which she applied except Princeton and was offered significant academic scholarships. I think the whole thing was such a breath of fresh air that admissions people stopped and actually considered the personbehind the portfolio.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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~Rachel~
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I wouldn't call us Unschoolers as such... but definitely interest lead!
I have my plan, which we follow most days... but then there are the days/weeks/months when the plan gets put on hold because something came up...
Such as when the weather was nice last week... I sent the kids outside to enjoy it! James discovered for himself, what his 'helicopter seeds' were (maple seeds )... he spent an inordinate amount of time looking at the wild violets, and has studied the birds very intently. He tells me that the crows are always looking up at the sky! I wouldn't know!
Personally, I think that this is CM at it's best... did she not allow the child (particularly on nature walks) to 'observe' and 'discover' things for himself? 
I think we are all promoting one special thing here... we are teaching our children to how to learn. Whether they are studying nature, math, poetry or history, they are finding things out by themselves.
I think it's great!  
Now... back to waiting for the mail (I'm hoping Elizabeth's book is in it since DH ordered it for me!!)
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Faith
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I am sorry. My original post was not complete because I had to dash off to get kids to school! And it sounded kind of snotty, which, of course, I did not intend at all!
I get nervous with the term unschooling because I got into heated debates with folks at unschooling.com and Vegsource Unschoolers board on just the issue of definition back when I was really into the concept. It is a very slippery term. The thing I was trying to say is that there is a spectrum that runs from very formal to very spontaneous learning. Some kids love formal schooling and excel at it. They fall in love with the subject. You can give them a lesson and they run with it! They learn more than you ever thought they would. But is that unschooling, because they made what was in the lesson plan their own? I remember teachers who inspired me to dig much deeper and taught me great love for a subject so that I continued on my own to study. But I don't think that is unschooling either. However, that is a sign of a good teacher. Elizabeth, your children probably trust you a good deal. You are not going to teach them pap! You have a deep love for learning and great enthusiasm and of course they will catch that. Education is necessarily a partnership between the teacher (or material) and the student. Where does one leave off and the other begin. But just because it is a flexible, responsive relationship between the teacher and the student does not make it "unschooling."
So in my mind, it comes down to unschooling = child-led. I think that is how folks who use the unschooling philosophy as the pivotal point of reference for their brand of homeschooling would define it. People who are ideological about unschooling really do fall into the trap of thinking that somehow, imposing anything on their child, like the people at the Taking Children Seriously site, is wrong. It is the next logical step in that kind of thinking. I felt its pull when I was really into thinking that way.
I really like the term Family Learning that someone mentioned. That to me, conveys all the complexities of learning in a family: from the "Sit down right now and do your Math U See", to the spur of the moment investigation because something just caught a child's interest. I think it is really eclectic homeschooling that we are talking about. There is some delight-directed, there is some scheduled stuff, there is some making it up as you go along stuff. It is "real learning" to cop your phrase, Elizabeth, because it does cover the whole spectrum of how we learn.
I guess because of my own experiences with unschoolers, I get too hung up on what exactly people are refering to when they use the term. What exactly does it mean?
Blessings,
Faith
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MacBeth
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One thing that puts me "off" any time I head over to an unschooling board is the fighting over the definition...sort of like what happens when we discuss Catholic education on some boards with broader emphasis...are we unschooly enough? How much we leave up to our children defines, for some, whether we are unschooling or not. Is your child sitting under a tree all day, every day, contemplating something which he never shares with anyone? He's unschooling! Are you suggesting resources for your child when he asks you a question? That's not unschooling, you overbearing parent!!
I'll agree with Jane about Holt--he was a nut, but he also had insight gained over years of teaching. How Children Fail is one of those books that every parent should read...but keep in mind that Holt goes way over the deep end from time to time. OTOH, I love the way he gives very specific examples of how classroom management techniques set kids up for failure.
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Elizabeth
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MacBeth wrote:
| I'll agree with Jane about Holt--he was a nut, but he also had insight gained over years of teaching. How Children Fail is one of those books that every parent should read...but keep in mind that Holt goes way over the deep end from time to time. OTOH, I love the way he gives very specific examples of how classroom management techniques set kids up for failure. |
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I agree with both of you there. I read Holt when I was a classroom teacher and had no children and I couldn't help but think about how classroom management techniques set teachers up for failure.
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tovlo4801
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Faith wrote:
| I think it is really eclectic homeschooling that we are talking about. There is some delight-directed, there is some scheduled stuff, there is some making it up as you go along stuff. |
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This is what I am! I can jump on board with that description. It allows for the individuality of everyone. I'll throw in some CE ideas, some CM ideas, some textbooks, some whatever my dc wants to do, some wisdom from Elizabeth's Real Learning, some wisdom from Julie's Bravewriter, and bits and pieces from wherever else I find them. It's certainly working a lot better than when I tried to live someone else's educational dream and ignored the uniqueness of our family. It was a hard lesson for me, but I finally understand I'm not homeschooling to please some educational expert. I'm homschooling to meet my families needs. Wherever I can find wisdom to meet those needs I'll grab it! Even if it comes from my own children. 
I have to say after reading this discussion, I had no idea what unschooling truly was. I am learning to let my child's interests have an influence on our homeschool. I am accepting these interests as an indication of where God may be leading my child. I am definately not in favor of just giving the reigns to the child and saying "go for it!"
How about the question, "Are you an eclectic homeschooler?" I am!
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Lissa
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MacBeth wrote:
| One thing that puts me "off" any time I head over to an unschooling board is the fighting over the definition...sort of like what happens when we discuss Catholic education on some boards with broader emphasis...are we unschooly enough? |
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Oh, MacBeth, I know what you mean! Those round-and-round discussions can be so tedious.
Faith wrote:
| I guess because of my own experiences with unschoolers, I get too hung up on what exactly people are refering to when they use the term. What exactly does it mean? |
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That depends on whom you ask!
I think part of the confusion is that there are some people who believe that "unschooling" by definition requires the kind of hands-off parenting advocated by the Taking Children Seriously website Jane mentioned. Here in the U.S. that tends to be called "radical unschooling" and those folks are proponents of what they call "non-coercive parenting." No limits on TV, food, bedtimes; no required chores, etc. If you wander into some internet unschooling forums/lists, you find that the most vocal writers are ardent about the non-coercive stuff and don't consider anyone a "real unschooler" who has a more authoritative parenting style.
Other people--and there are many lists out there full of them--consider themselves unschoolers because of the approach to education & learning in their homes and see no contradiction (nothing that disqualifies them from the "unschooling" label) in the fact that they have household rules about chores, bedtimes, television, computer time, etc.
As Jane points out, the "radical unschooling" parenting philosophy is incompatible with Catholic teaching. I loved how you put it, Jane: "It ignores the reality of fallen nature...and the right and responsibility of parents to exercise legitimate and loving authority over their children."
I think (of course I could be wrong) that on this forum, in the context of Catholic home educators discussing our various lifestyles of learning, we are unlikely to encounter unschoolers of the "no limits whatsoever" type. The Church in her wisdom teaches us about limits of many kinds.
Unschooling (just plain unschooling, as opposed to radical unschooling) as a descriptor resonates with me, and does not seem at odds with Catholicism. It will take me a very long post to express why. However, the 11:00 bird just chirped on our clock, so I can't attempt it tonight. But Elizabeth, you see why I haven't yet sent you a blurb describing this forum--any attempt I might make to define unschooling is going to be *my* take on the word, the lifestyle, and not necessarily a satisfactory definition for others. Which leads one to wonder how useful a word is if it cannot be defined. But I do think "unschooling" describes or suggests an approach to learning (and to childhood?) which is different from other educational models. The differences intrigue me, and raise lots of questions, and that's what I thought it would be fun to talk about here.
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Leonie
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This has been an interesting discussion.
I like to hear different definitions of unschooling as I do believe that the word "unschooling" means flexibility AND is flexible, itself, in meaning.
I think that Catholic unschooling looks different yet again to a more "secular" form of unschooling.
I tend to think less of child-led and more of CM's idea of masterly inactivity, when I think of unschooling in my home.
We strew resources and books and may leave the child to interact with these. This does not imply that we leave children alone with no parental input, however!
It is an application of CM's idea of when to allow children to interact with other minds and when to step in - the masterly part of the parental (supposed) inactivity.
Leonie in Sydney
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Elizabeth
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Okay, so how does "unschooling" in the Catholic defnition differ from: a new paradigm for home education which focuses upon developing the whole personality of the child--the heart, soul, and mind--to pursue a happy, wholehearted, academically excellent, spiritually complete childhood. We glean from the writings of Charlotte Mason with great joy and we also find ourselves discussing and learning from St. Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein), Pope John Paul II, Maria Montessori, and Saint John Bosco, among others. We are parents committed to Real Learning. We are passionate about learning in the context of real life. And we are in love with the Real Presence. We are joyously Catholic and sucking the marrow out of every category of knowledge with bounding enthusiasm but not necessarily within the confines of traditional classroom methods.
I feel like we've been around this block before...
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Faith
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I think we need to coin a new term! Or maybe "Catholic unschooling" is enough? We are going to be doing quite a lot of "unschooling" in the next couple of weeks, as our contractors begin renovating our kitchen today. For some reason I am quite nervous about it! So I doubt I will be able to participate in this conversation much. But when I can come up for air, I'll check in and will be very interested with what you all have come up with.
God bless!
Faith
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Maybe 'unschooling' is more what you make of it than what others do . An Individualistic education
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MacBeth
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Elizabeth wrote:
Okay, so how does "unschooling" in the Catholic defnition differ from: a new paradigm for home education which focuses upon developing the whole personality of the child--the heart, soul, and mind--to pursue a happy, wholehearted, academically excellent, spiritually complete childhood. We glean from the writings of Charlotte Mason with great joy and we also find ourselves discussing and learning from St. Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein), Pope John Paul II, Maria Montessori, and Saint John Bosco, among others. We are parents committed to Real Learning. We are passionate about learning in the context of real life. And we are in love with the Real Presence. We are joyously Catholic and sucking the marrow out of every category of knowledge with bounding enthusiasm but not necessarily within the confines of traditional classroom methods.
I feel like we've been around this block before... |
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Yeah. We call it "Real Learning!!!!"
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Elizabeth
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MacBeth wrote:
Yeah. We call it "Real Learning!!!!" |
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That's what I thought
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tovlo4801
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Elizabeth wrote:
Okay, so how does "unschooling" in the Catholic defnition differ from: a new paradigm for home education which focuses upon developing the whole personality of the child--the heart, soul, and mind--to pursue a happy, wholehearted, academically excellent, spiritually complete childhood. We glean from the writings of Charlotte Mason with great joy and we also find ourselves discussing and learning from St. Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein), Pope John Paul II, Maria Montessori, and Saint John Bosco, among others. We are parents committed to Real Learning. We are passionate about learning in the context of real life. And we are in love with the Real Presence. We are joyously Catholic and sucking the marrow out of every category of knowledge with bounding enthusiasm but not necessarily within the confines of traditional classroom methods.
I feel like we've been around this block before... |
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But is unschooling the only way to accomplish an "education which focuses upon developing the whole personality of the child--the heart, soul, and mind--to pursue a happy, wholehearted, academically excellent, spiritually complete childhood"? Couldn't this definition be accomplished through classical methods, Charlotte Mason, unschooling, or many variety of combinations of educational styles. My impression after hanging out with you guys for a while is that everyone here educates differently and pulls from many different places to provide that education.
My exposure to unschooling has been in places where it is not done as the only source of educational philosophy. I remember when I first started homeschooling, I read a book by the Moore's. They talked about how to handle a child pulled out of school in the upper grades who was completely resistant to school. They advised letting the child be and seeing where they go. Then gently helping them to see the education in what they chose to do without making a big deal out of the fact that it was education. I saw this as a brief unschooling respite for the child. In that example they eventually moved the child back into a more regular school situation. I remember back on the CCM list someone recommending that I get a variety of books from the library that might interest my ds and see what he takes up (probably Leonie now that I see her post ). I've done this and I see this as a very gentle (very minimal ), getting my toes wet in unschooling. Also, what Elizabeth described in the opening post did sound a lot to me like what I would think of as unschooling. It may not be pure or the way school is done there all the time, but it seems to be a definate unschooling vein to me. I guess I just haven't really encountered anyone who completely unschooled. It seems like what most of you are describing is homeschooling with an unschooling flavor (stronger for some than others) and not a pure unschooling as others here have described it. The trouble with a definition seems to be that we don't do pure vanilla or chocolate or strawberry homeschooling as a rule. We seem to do Napoleon or Tin Roof Sundae or some other wonderful combination to make up our family's favorite.
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mumofsix
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Elizabeth wrote:
Okay, so how does "unschooling" in the Catholic defnition differ from: a new paradigm for home education which focuses upon developing the whole personality of the child--the heart, soul, and mind--to pursue a happy, wholehearted, academically excellent, spiritually complete childhood. We glean from the writings of Charlotte Mason with great joy and we also find ourselves discussing and learning from St. Teresa Benedicta (Edith Stein), Pope John Paul II, Maria Montessori, and Saint John Bosco, among others. We are parents committed to Real Learning. We are passionate about learning in the context of real life. And we are in love with the Real Presence. We are joyously Catholic and sucking the marrow out of every category of knowledge with bounding enthusiasm but not necessarily within the confines of traditional classroom methods.
I feel like we've been around this block before...
*********************************************************
No, that is not a definition of unschooling. It is a nice and fairly general way of describing a Catholic education that is not confined to traditional institutional school methods. It could describe any number of approaches which were (a) Catholic and (b) sensitive to children's needs and exploitative of the enrichment of a non-institutional setting.
I think the nub of unschooling is this: it is child-led rather than parent-led. Done responsibly it will involve a great deal of thoughtful parental input and sensitive support. Done in a Catholic manner it will not absolve the child from the necessity of obeying the ten commandments, even the fourth. However, it will be the child who will dictate the pace, pick the main subject matter, choose the "electives" (=the entire curriculum ), not the parent.
Another parent could fulfill all the criteria of the above description, yet write the curriculum over the summer for the entire school year or use a ready-made one, one that is susceptible to that approach, e.g. Mater Amabilis. She will be the one choosing the curriculum, not the child or children, though she may well take their learning styles and interests into account as she does so.
There may not be a clear dividing line here, so we will probably not be able to form a club with rules and black-balling , but I think that is the precise significance of unschooling, that it is child-led. That is really what people are talking about in the definition discussion. Because the parent/child relationship is so fluid, interactive and intuitive, it is not always easy even to differentiate between parent-led and child-led: this, plus the anxiety felt by many when unschooling becomes shorthand for being gentle ("do I measure up" or "how dare they - I plan my curriculum over the summer and I am not an ogre") muddies the waters of the definition discussion and gives it an apparently unlimited lease of life!
Now, here's an interesting question: schools HAVE to be adult-led, for sheer logistical reasons. You cannot have a class of thirty children with one teacher in which each child follows his or her own interests and not also have chaos (or so the theory goes and it is fairly convincing). What about the large family of say, five or more children? Is it even feasible to have a child-led curriculum in that case? (My mind is by no means made up so I am genuinely interested in others' views.)
Jane.
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Elizabeth
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I think that in real life, in homes with sensitive parents and children, where children are viewed as real persons and they view their parents the same way, some learning expeditions will be child-led and others will be parent-led. Here, on these boards, we have a clearly worded mission statement. So, if we're talking about unschooling here, it's safe to assume we're not using a definition that contradicts that statement.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Are you an unschooler?
