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ALmom
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| Posted: Sept 14 2006 at 3:54am | IP Logged
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First, Elizabeth, prayers said for Courtney. She certainly is quite a writer!
I do have a college freshman, a girl, at a secular university. Now, we are only in the first semester so it is hard to say whether we prepared her well, but we did the best we could as we felt called to - so here it is for what it is worth.
First, our primary duty as parents we felt, was to guard, protect and guide. In that vein, we did not feel it necessary to point out, draw attention to or otherwise show the ugliness unless it was absolutely necessary. We sort of went by the same principle as when do you discuss facts of life with your children and how. I guess we took the writings of St. Paul to heart and decided that we should focus on all that was good, honorable, beautiful and avoid all else. (This is what we aimed for of course - not to say we were always successful even among ourselves). We taught our children to guard their senses (both our boys and girls). We answered questions honestly, but without going into more detail than was absolutely necessary. That was our base approach. We taught our children the Ten Commandments and what they meant without being terribly specific about all the ways to break the commandments. Even my 18 year old has never heard of some of the things that seem to be on all the 5th grade religion discussions, etc. in the parishes. We felt this was way too much information. We preferred to supervise, keep on top of things and such rather than risk the dangers or have to talk about all the things out there ahead of time so she could protect herself.
When we became aware of situations requiring some sort of action on our part - my dh and I discussed it and prayed about how best to address it. Our values, our belief in God were part and parcel of every decision we made. If we went shopping, our dc would see us put things away again as soon as we saw a plunging neckline, too short a skirt, etc. and they knew from early on that we expected modesty in dress. We monitored what we viewed as parents and they knew that they were not allowed to turn on the TV or the computer without explicit permission. All these things they grew up with - very much like the carseat and seatbelt were non-negotiable - and they basically adapted our values, though we sometimes had a few more in depth discussions with our oldest about peer pressure as it was hard for her to be different. We refused permission to go to many things (spend the nights, many things at the church, etc.) because we saw the tendencies to peer dependency in this daughter and because of what we saw as dangers or inappropriate supervision and choices of movies, etc. at these events. It was hard and we were sometimes the bad guys. We certainly knew it was hard on our daughter and we acknowledged this and kept good communications throughout. (to the best of our ability - not to say she didn't accuse us of ruining her life by homeschooling and we didn't ever blow our cool). We didn't always share the details of our decisions depending on the age at the time. Sometimes we look back and feel we should have shared more in some cases - but never in the cases that would have required us to go into alternate lifestyles and s** issues.
We gave instructions and very brief explanations of why when her safety demanded it. When we had a certain kind of offender move into the neighborhood when she was 15, we did not want to open up the diversity issue - but I had the postcard from the police department and had seen the lady (who looked like a man) around the park. After much prayer, dh and I simply would not allow our children to walk the neighborhood. We did not feel it an appropriate time to open up that whole can of worms. We simply told her that we were made aware of something very, very troubling involving their safety and we did not want them to walk in the neighborhood without us. We were prepared to discuss things in a bit more detail with our oldest if she had really pressed us hard, but other than asking a few times, she seemed able to accept our answer that we preferred not to go into it at this point.
Initially she was not planning to go to college and planned to stay at home for a while, which was fine with us. It also meant that certain things could be postponed a bit longer. However, she changed her mind by the end of 9th grade and after research, it became obvious that this child would have to go to a secular college for what she wanted. This mandated that we begin to discuss some things. As we prayed about how to say things, and how much to say, many opportunities presented themselves naturally.
She was learning things about character and boy/girl relationships in a pretty safe situation. Our family has always stressed courtship model and rejected the American dating scene so our daughter was fine with just having friends - but had to learn that many young men did not share our courtship philosophy and sometimes they would pretend to be of like mind but then push for things that were more like dating or not want to do things with the family or try to get her to go into a store that she knew we did not care for. We were reassured to see our daughter tell us these things, and stand up against the crowd. We did not allow her in situations that were truely unsafe and she was never alone with any young man. Our daughter had to learn that as a young woman she had to be more guarded in friendships with young men and couldn't just act with them like she did with her girlfriends (talking on the phone with them everyday, e-mailing all the time, sharing feelings to the same extent, etc. without them getting the wrong idea (especially since we didn't know anyone who shared our courtship model). Her dad and I both spoke with her about these things - using examples from our own experiences. She learned that sometimes the true character of a person is hidden until you are really friends. These were all essential lessons and a good jumping off point to talk about how smooth talkers could pretend to share values, etc. and even try to get her in situations where they would try to take advantage of her. Because she had seen some of this in a small way (where it was mostly simply a good kid, who was immature and wanting to date as soon as she was 18 - and mad at her for seeking our opinion when supposedly he had been acting like he shared that view), she was able to comprehend that this whole scene could be magnified to huge proportions. She also knew how confusing things can get when emotions get involved and we were able to discuss how important it is not to presume that we have the strength to overcome temptations - just do not get yourself into situations that could become the near occassion of sin. Stay close to God, pray, frequent the Sacraments (especially Confession and the Eucharist), spend some time being friendly but observing before really becoming buddies. Alone, we cannot stand against the crowd - we must rely on Our Lord. She also knew we were there advising - but respecting the fact that she was at an age where we were gradually allowing her to make more and more decisions. This starts and develops from childhood so it isn't really a break, but I do think she saw us letting go more, the more she shared with us and the more she demonstrated that she was able to withstand the peer pressure.
Since she would be going to a Secular University in a few years, we began gently bringing up a few issues - assault, safety and how to be aware of surroundings. We had never before even mentioned illicit drugs (it hadn't been necessary), but now we had to bring it up because we had to make sure she knew how important it was never to drink from an open container, to just buy another soda if she had turned from it or not been attentive to it, to be careful of those who might try to take advantage of her innocence. We didn't have one huge talk, but gently discussed something whenever the conversation turned to her college plans - along with the excitement she felt in actually being in a classroom for the first time in her life. We also spoke of the fact that she was likely to run into political correctness (what that was), and that certain terms should elicit caution - things like diversity (which sounds pretty good on the surface but often means trying to tell you that you have to accept sin as if it were the good). We also re-emphasized the need to love the sinner while hating the sin - and that that does not mean she is obligated to put herself in harms way being buddy buddy with someone living a life of sin. Our obligation to love starts with prayer and entails a certain need to be polite, courteous, etc. - it does not mean we have to hide our beliefs or be dishonest nor does it require us to be best friends with them.. I wanted her to recognize that persecution for the faith is not just a martyrdom of blood and spoke of Fr. Hardon and white martyrdom. I also shared the story of a friend's sister who was prevented from seeking a teaching certificate in her state simply because of her faith and her stands for morality and refusal to compromise her faith - though she had straight As in college.
Then we did one other thing. Knowing which school was most likely, we made many, many trips there to scope out how to minimize the danger. Some of these trips, the college was aware of beforehand, many were just on our own during the time that school was in session. We went by the Neuman Center, went to Mass there (we should have gone to the student Mass). We asked about dorms, spoke with some students that we knew were from solid families and tried to have as much information as possible before hand. We would casually point out the bulletin type things and then in the privacy of the car mention what might have been involved. (Ie one of the clubs seems like a wonderful service club celebrating various cultures - but you find out that it is the club that sponsors Coming Out Week). You notice the various things posted in the dorms. We verified that bathroom facilities were private enough (we just asked to see a dorm and then we also went into the bathroom). We asked about the co-ed dorms and how they were co-ed, about policies, got the campus security report. In talking unofficially to the campus police and to the resident assistants and students in the dorms (when the college didn't know we were there), we found out a lot of scoop. We got a campus map and noted the location of various things (football stadium, fraternity and sorority houses), drove around campus at night, tried to get a feel for buildings she would have to frequent. Before we even officially applied, we knew which dorms we wanted and which ones we absolutely would not tolerate. We also learned to find the mom that was working on campus to help pay for her child's college education - they gave great inside information. We found out where the really orthodox students meet as the Neuman center on campus is fairly liberal. Our daughter is playing for Mass - in hopes of helping improve the orthodoxy and musicianship if she can. However, she knew she would need some other support even while meeting some of the other Catholic students. There is a rosary which meets privately - and she goes to this. She knew to avoid the Tues. evening Mass as this is way too casual with Fr. sitting on the sofa for the consecration - this pic. went out in their advertisement. All the information you can gather ahead of time gives you a chance to discuss stategies. We knew ahead of time that one of the campus ride services is primarily picking up drunks from local bars - so we knew to tell her not to ride this one. She needs to walk in groups, not go to the music building alone, etc. , etc. We prayed about a roommate as the University at least does keep its promises to put you with your first choice roommate if you both select the other. If you live in a suite, they will not guarantee to put you with your 3rd and 4th choice. We felt safer with one roommate and a small, old room. We arranged to meet her potential roommate and family ahead of time and our daughter e-mailed her extensively before deciding. We are still fighting parking situations as the girls dorm must vacate the parking lot for all football games by 5 PM on the Friday before the game. Folks actually start arriving in their RVs on Wed and Thurs before a game on Sat. with tailgate parties, drinking, noise and parking nightmares. Our dd has told me that there are times there are absolutely no spaces at her dorm - and she was apologetic about a ticket she got for creating a space becasue it was dark and she didn't feel safe parking elsewhere and walking and didn't know what else to do. As far as I am concerned, she did the right thing and we have told her to do it again if she has to. I have contacted the parking people at the University but basically the attitude in general is that mom and dad just need to be told how to bow out of their children's lives and let them live in "freedom". I would not send a child to any secular University if I did not have a really good relationship with them - and if they did not have a really strong focus on why they need to go there. We even unintentionally showed up on campus during Coming Out Week - one of those times we just showed up as I'm sure the University tries to control what parents see of the reality. At orientation, our daughter told us that the presenters were wild and more immature than even the incoming freshman and she wouldn't want to do anything with them. Obviously the presenters showed the students one side of the campus while the parents were told only what they thought we would be pleased to hear. You also need to have your student sign all kinds of things so that you will be informed - because of privacy laws the school, the medical people - no one will tell you anything unless there is written permission from your student.
We also made sure that we went over the assault protocol that the University gives out. We hope and pray and have done everything in our power to assure the safety of our daugter - but we wanted her to know that they will recommend things and probably push abortion. We made sure we had a local, pro-life doctor that will see her if needed and basically do not want our daughter using the health services at the University.
Before going off to college, she and I signed up for a RAD course through our local police department. I spoke to the local officer who ran the class to make sure about content. There were times that some of the adults in attendance were a bit risque in their jokes, but the officers were very professional. I would not have taken a younger child, but based on where our daughter was heading it seemed like the best thing to do. The officer had been very respectful of my religious beliefs which I shared with her in conversation weeks before the class began - and also my concerns about any information not being too explicit. They did a good job accomodating us for the most part and put us with some moms who brought 12 yo. We both thought it was a very good course (and was free of charge here) and plan to refresh each year.
With all the sleuthing and preparation, there were still surprises - like the required alcohol.edu course. It was obnoxious but every freshman is required to take it. My daugter was very angry about it as she does not drink or take drugs of any kind - with no intention of starting. It claims to be tailored to the individual - but is not. When my daughter began the on-line course, she invited me over to see it and for a long time it seemed pretty inoccuos (that is the part they probably show the parents in the seperate e-mail informing the parents of the efforts they are making to curb alcohol abuse on campus). Then - ooh boy. When my daughter had an opportunity to give her opinion she gave it solid (she shared with me some of what she said - basically that this had offended her religious beliefs and totally disregarded her right to hold firm to the teachings of the church - and that it made it seem like nothing was wrong as long as it was legal and between two consenting adults) and also recruited as many people as she could find to give their opinion. Unfortunately, I doubt that anything will change.
The other thing we did was pick up a hard copy of course offerings and look at core requirements - you can read between the lines on a lot of them. She will have to take 2 literature courses, 2 science coursses and some social/ behavioral science and of course the standard western civ (2 semesters) or American history(2 semesters). Most of these will be politically correct or have funny ideas. The worst will probably be the social/behavioral sciences. We are looking for a few that we can do. Her poor roommate (an evangelical Christian) got stuck with having to take voodoo and Catholicism (not sure how these two even remotely go together and don't want to even hear what is in the course). Since our daughter is in the honors program, she must also take some specific honors courses. Most of these look pretty obnoxious, but a few of them look fairly safe so she has plans to grab those early. The literature and writing courses tend to focus on dark literature and the professors want you to look at all sides (and tend to be post-modernists so they don't want you to come to any conclusions). One assignment my daughter had was to read the personal adds (yuk) and write on this. Since she had been instructed not to come to a conclusion, she had to be careful what tack she took so she could be honest and faithful. She basically wrote on what you could learn about people's characters (mostly lack thereof) by reading between the lines and how you might respond depending on your morality or lack thereof. I suspect the prof. will kill her on the "conclusion", but she hasn't gotten it back yet. She told me that after this he at least lets them pick their topics so she knows she'll write on a ton of non-important matters where the conclusions really don't matter. We have found that, in general, the female English prof. are the worst with the most aggressive agendas. Our daughter at least has someone who says he won't fault them for their opinions- he shared that his class would address the problem of the teacher always being right - after all his 4 ex- would all say he had plenty wrong with him. The campus situation is bizzarre and we are in the Bible belt where things generally aren't as bad as those top ranked schools or ivy league. In Penn Univ. they vote whether or not the bathrooms on a floor are co-ed in the co-ed dorm (not co-ed by floor anymore but by room).
It is a relief to all of us that in our daughter's case, her core courses are spread over four years - with most everything being in music so we should be able to juggle most things to avoid the worst.. Here in music, we knew what we were getting - a wonderful piano prof. who is in her 80s at least, still performing and a perfect fit for our daughter. The piano ensemble is a bit more challenging as the prof. is a modern music fan - and she is having to play a duet that is supposed to be based on Panganini (whom she loves). But her comment - it is so changed as to not even resemble the original - and not musical at all.
Someone suggested taking clep tests for as much of the core courses as possible. I'd second that except to say that taking clep at some colleges doesn't get you out of core requirements - it just makes you take higher level courses. If you can do the AP exam, that is more certain credit wise - or if you know a particular comm. college prof. with solid faith, you can take courses that should transfer (but check it all out before hand). Unfortunately, the AP lit exam covers the same dark literature so that doesn't help much. Also, you have to have a school that will let you take the AP exams with them. We couldn't find anyone that would let us do it (except the Catholic high school which was not offering any AP exams but Calculus).
Our daugter expected to be faced with weird stuff (its a secular university after all). She expected to be a bit alone - and has been surprised to find some support (but it is more behind the scenes and not an official part of campus life). She spent most of high school being different from the crowd and very lonely, so being different is nothing new for her. She is actually much less lonely than in high school - and I suspect it is from having confidence, and not really thinking about friendships simply because she learned to deal with being left out a lot in high school (Catholics all went to the local school - either the Catholic one or the one local public one and she dressed differently, etc. and was never even spoken to by these folks. Other homeschoolers were evangelicals that mostly were busy in their church (some were very nice and some dropped her like a hot potatoe when she wasn't open to conversion or they found out she was strongly Catholic and not an uneducated pushover). My peer dependent 13 yo has really blossomed into a very non-peer dependent young lady at 18. So far we have not detected any homesickness, though we do talk to her often and are close enough to visit from time to time (and she knows we'd fly up in a second if she ever felt she needed us). She seems very happy. I think mom is having a harder time, because I miss her so much and everytime we sit down to dinner the table seems emptier because her place is empty. She has been to one football game, got coached on the rules - but was not impressed by the unsportsmanlike behavior of the fans and isn't sure she really wants to go back. (Is this school the only one that boos the other team as it is announced?) She seems to be planning to try and make changes where she can in a gentle sort of way - she is a very tactful person (unlike her dear mother who is forever either saying too much or putting my foot in my mouth or both). This is so far - next week or month, we may hear differently - but so far our protecting her for so long seems to have prepared her rather well.
Janet
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Martha
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| Posted: Sept 14 2006 at 8:18am | IP Logged
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I second the early start concept for college andplanto do that with our dc as much as possible. So many colleges these days are not what they used to be and it's really no big deal to replace high school comp with freshman comp.
I saw many highschool kids in my college classes (1 or 2 per class on average) and they did great. They were still at home, so that gave them some serious support in keeping perspective. The parents saved money and received some peace of mind. And the kid has a head start before they even graduate.
There's several hs-ing articles about how to get a college degree, or very close to it, by the end of high school and I see no down side if a kid is ready for it.
I'm sure it's not for everyone, but I see it as dipping the toes to test the waters vs being semi-thrown in. 
Just my .02 in that area... which I have no doubt will be drasticly adjusted in a few years. 
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Martha
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Yes, they're all ours!
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Sept 14 2006 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I also think that college campuses (particularly if the child lives there) are not representative of "real life." Rarely in real life are we forced to live in such close quarters with people who might have very different values and priorities than we do. Very rarely in real life are we forced (because they are "required" courses) to listen to people who spout things we know not to be true and hwo grade us on our ability to spout it back. Instead of real life, I look at it more as baptism by fire into the world of adulthood... |
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I completely agree. I've been musing a lot on this point lately. Do you think that, for children who are not necessarily called to big universities, its possibly to help our children to transition from homeschool to real life and just skip a good chunk of this phase of life? For instance, if a dd wants to be married and decides she wants to be a hair dresser in the meantime, couldn't living at home and continuing to be involved in a good parish moderate some of the vanity/materialism espoused at beauty school and then help the child move toward the more common "real life" scene of just being with more diverse people but not actually being forced to digest information and live with those who hate our Faith? Or for boys, couldn't a stint in trade school and then moving into working for a big company (or maybe even self employment) be a safer transition? If the child remains in the family's parish, isn't there a better chance of them finding a spouse with similar values, too?
I realize that we can't control our children's futures.  Still, I hate the thought that immersion in the college environment (outside of good schools like Steubenville, Christendom, etc) is a given that we cannot avoid.
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Maddie
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| Posted: Sept 14 2006 at 11:42pm | IP Logged
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*
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~Maddie~
Wife to my dh and Momma of 9 dear ones
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ALmom
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| Posted: Sept 15 2006 at 2:52am | IP Logged
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I second the observation that college is not even remotely like real life. There are plenty of people who have wealthy parents who foot the bill and they party without consequences (many schools continue to keep them in for the money that mom and dad donate, etc.) It is very unlike the real world - just by the fact that you have a bunch of same age kids thrown together in an artificial settting and many don't suffer any consequences for their behavior (except maybe a hangover). It does not serve as a transition to life.
I definitely do not buy the line that you have to throw your children to the wolves in order for them to learn how to deal with real life. Isn't this the same old line we have been hearing since we first started homeschooling. There are times when it is obvious that our children have to use college as a stepping stone to their goals and where God seems to be calling them. You don't become a doctor without a college and medical school education - and we are in dire need of good, Catholic doctors (anyone out there want to come to our neck of the woods and fight the good fight - and probably become a white martyr at least). Obviously, this means I also don't buy the line that none of our children should go to college - or that our girls should never go to college. Both of these ideas are pretty prevalent in the evangelical homeschooling community around here. I do think there has to be a great deal of discernment about whether and where - and prayer is essential, as well as realistic knowledge of both the reality of the schools you are looking at (spiritually, academically, and financially) and the strengths, weaknesses and passions of your children. You also have to stay closely connected to your child and assess the situation constantly - and pray all the time. I do not think this is a decision that can be made without careful prayer, research and discussion. We are taught that as our children get older our parenting responsibilities and duties change. We cannot tell them what they are supposed to do with their lives - but we should share with them our wisdom and guide them with our knowledge of both them and what is out there. And don't let the college convince you that suddenly you should bow out - keep guiding and communicating and advising and being a parent ....
You don't belong in any college, imo, unless you have a really good sense of why you are there. I would not push the societies assumption that everyone graduates from high school and then proceeds to college for the college experience and to further their education in a general sort of way. I think if you leave all kinds of options open for your children, God will make it clear what they need to do - and both parent and child will know the best next step after high school. There are better and cheaper ways to find a husband (attend daily Mass and work at a very orthodox shrine for one  ). Education or broadening your knowledge is not restricted to hallowed halls of University or college. And marriage and the religious life (some orders require a college education and some do not depending on their particular charism) are certainly to be valued, not just by lip service but by the very real assumption that some of our children may be called to skip the college scene and settle down and raise a family - or skip college and explore a calling to the religious life. God can call the brightest so just because your child is a National Merit finalist does not mean they must go to college.
I also say we have to let go of all assumptions about particular colleges. Ivy league or #1 ranking may mean that they are tops in political correctness and a cheaper and relatively more conservative option may be available somewhere else that doesnt' get the advertisement but provides tons of opportunities to shine in your child's chosen discipline. After the first year or two, I've never known anyone to care what school you graduated from - it's job experience, work record, inventions, etc. If they are known for research normally reserved for graduate students - or for some academic team wins that get national recognition (things they had an opportunity to do because they skipped the ivy league and went with a no-name school with plenty of opportunities to shine) then will it really matter. Living at home may be an option, but don't do it out of fear or you may find that that hasn't made the situation any safer for your child and has backfired. Just because a college is known as Orthodox Catholic doesn't mean your child will not get a crack pot professor in a few courses or run into nutty kids with wild ideas or students who are alcoholics or addicts - and the false sense of security may put you and your child off guard. I know a case where someone speaks of paying mega bucks to have Fr. so and so teach their child to smoke a pipe (and this was at one of those one of a handful of colleges recommended by all the Orthodox Catholic sites). Isn't it nutty to send your child to a school that doesn't offer what the child loves - just so they have another year of Catholicism and then find out they aren't accredited so the school they must transfer to will not accept any credits. I know around here we have heard parents discuss how much easier it is to resist the evil when the evil is more obvious - it is generally sneakier at the Catholic colleges. You are wary and on your toes at a secular institution because you are looking for the error - you know it's there. On the other hand, if the place is so bad and there is a sense that your child's soul is in danger - then isn't it nutty to go into the pit - maybe you need to keep searching and praying. I really think my daughter was wise to recognize that the constant in your face at one dorm on campus would just be too much (not necessarily as a temptation to sin but in terms of exposure that she had no means of avoiding) that she simply would sacrifice her dreams to avoid it.
You cannot assess any of this except with constant prayer and a solid grounding in the real truths of the situation (so you have to do plenty of digging and sleuthing). Also, always be willing to recognize that the situation may change and require different action at a later point. It also helps to elicit the prayers of a whole community of religious sisters and the women on this board!!!!!
Someone said something about being active in your parish as a good source of future spouses - yes, only if your parish is fairly Orthodox. Around here the parish is not the best place to find people who are willing to live by the teachings of the church concerning marriage. You are just as likely to find a divorced person who doesn't realize they are not free to marry - and you won't necessarily know this early on. It is better than the local bar - but not very reliable.
I think following a courtship model rather than dating is much more reliable - besides it is safer if you misjudge character a bit. But where to meet someone who is a faithful Catholic in the Bible belt is a bit of a challenge.
Janet
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Sept 16 2006 at 11:40am | IP Logged
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btw - thankfully the Catholic League has been notified of the comic in the Cavalier Daily. It has been pulled and an apology has been issued. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm assuming this is the one that Courtney was referring to. You can read about it here.
Also, please keep the Catholic League in your prayers. Thank God for men like William Donohue who go out into that ugly world to defend our faith. 
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: Sept 16 2006 at 11:48am | IP Logged
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Here's a book that looks like it has some "creative" ways of getting that college degree - Bear's Guide to Earning a College Degree Nontraditionally. Might offer some options?
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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marihalojen
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In regards to the Nontraditional College degree I would make certain the course you chart is through an accredited college, very difficult to transfer credits otherwise, and if the student decides to pursue it further it is very frustrating to have to pay a second time for a similar course...
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~Jennifer
Mother to Mariannna, age 13
The Mari Hal-O-Jen
SSR = Sailing, Snorkling, Reading
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: For what are we preparing?
