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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 07 2014 at 12:14pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
But using a test to open those doors...???
Especially one that was not originally designed as a college readiness test?
I do think the vocab section is being dumbed down. We will end up with young adults who can't easily enjoy classic literature because they don't understand all the words used by the authors.
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I really don't know...I honestly don't as I don't have a lot of personal experience with the SAT (aside from when I took it 25 years ago  ). I guess from what I'm understanding is that b/c some of these kids don't have the same kind of educational background as those from more affluent areas, they're simply not able to get a higher score, therefore get in these "better" colleges when they are every bit as capable. Is the SAT being used to actually determine college readiness or is it actually being used to see who scores the highest, therefore who gets in? I still think all the standardized tests should go away and their 4 years of high school work should stand for itself...not one test. Isn't it true that if you come from an affluent family, get a high $$ education, can afford expensive test prep, you're probably going to do great on the test. How does all THAT determine college readiness or better yet, determine that they're the only ones that are college ready?
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Kathryn in TX
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Martha
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| Posted: March 07 2014 at 4:11pm | IP Logged
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I am of the opinion that vocabulary is best built in context, either experiences or quality reading. It is not in and of itself so much a sign of intelligence or ability to learn as a sign of possible/likely socioeconomic indicator.
Children who grow up without books in the home (which is VERY common) it access to those using a wider a vocabulary, they are going to dumb the previous SAT. Even if they are very smart, hard working, straight A kids. They just do. There's plenty of evidence of it. The schools know it, college board knows it, colleges know it,
I don't think it is necessarily dumbing down to focus on what can be a much stronger indicator of college success ability - comprehension in reading and writing and math. A person can expand their vocabulary remarkably easily compared to expanding their reading, writing, and math skills.
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Martha
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Barb.b
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| Posted: March 07 2014 at 5:55pm | IP Logged
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SeaStar wrote:
Barbara-
I hope you will keep us posted as to what she thought about the test- what was helpful for the prep, etc.
I find it interesting that - supposedly- with the new test all the expensive prep classes will no longer be necessary. Khan Academy will offer free prep lessons.
Khan has a lot of free stuff already on line.
Some colleges may require the essay; some won't. I wonder if the essay will eventually just be dropped. |
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I won't be able to give any opinion as to the 2016 SAT - just the current one!
DD will be spring of her Senior year when the new one comes out - so too late.
Some very good posts here! I need to go back and read some of the links provided. Anyway - I feel the SAT will always be the SAT and no matter what - a lot of the questions are just worded weird!
I do agree with what someone here said - that the ACT is just as good as far as getting into college - colleges take both! I am getting the SAT out of the way for dd now. If she gets a decent score (she should based on her practice tests) then we focus on prepping for the ACT spring of Junior year.
My next child in now in 5th so by the time he's testing for colleges they will probably have another "new" one.
Also, I pity the class who has to take the new SAT the first year its out! No one's ever taken it, they are kind of experiments. Also, who knows what colleges will think of the new SAT. Thats the important question since getting into colleges is the ONLY reason most kids take these stupid tests!
One question out of curiosity : anyone see if they are changing the math on the SAT? Just curious!
Barb
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Martha
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| Posted: March 07 2014 at 7:21pm | IP Logged
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The math portion will cover fewer concepts, but they will need to know the covered concepts in more depth.
Calculators will be banned for some portions of the math.
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Martha
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guitarnan
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| Posted: March 07 2014 at 9:05pm | IP Logged
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I am no fan of standardized tests (really, I could rant for an hour), and I don't know whether colleges should even use them at all. Accuplacer offers placement tests for math and English (community colleges often use Accuplacer tests to determine which classes a student should take), and maybe that is a better way to go. I'm not sure.
I love the idea of the College Board partnering with Khan Academy for test prep materials. I hope they're not all video tutorials; some students (self included) do not learn well from videos. I applaud the College Board for finding a respected partner for this enterprise.
One thing I would like to see is communities devising creative solutions to the challenge of reading aloud to young children whose parents can't do that on a regular basis, because of work obligations, health issues, illiteracy or whatever. Senior centers could partner with daycare centers for this purpose, for example. It would cost money for transportation, but the benefits to the children would be enormous.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Barb.b
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| Posted: March 08 2014 at 8:36am | IP Logged
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I hate these tests too. As to whether colleges use them - yes they do. For us homeschoolers many, many colleges will state they put EXTRA emphasis on these tests. For "brick and mortar" kids they use class rank, GPA, grades and such.
As much as I dislike the tests - I can't believe how many homeschool high school kids I have run into lately that are WAY behind in school (NOT here! but here where I live). Maybe its because in Texas there is no oversight of homeschoolers. I don't know. I do know I keep saying that these homeschoolers will give us all a bad name! AND be the reason that colleges will (at least for us homeschoolers) place a great emphasis on these tests!
Barb
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 08 2014 at 1:21pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
One thing I would like to see is communities devising creative solutions to the challenge of reading aloud to young children whose parents can't do that on a regular basis, because of work obligations, health issues, illiteracy or whatever. Senior centers could partner with daycare centers for this purpose, for example. It would cost money for transportation, but the benefits to the children would be enormous. |
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Interesting you mention this Nancy as I was thinking about this recently. My oldest dances for a studio where the majority of their dances take place at nursing homes as a ministry to those "shut in". I was wondering whether these elderly would love a "read aloud" as much as I do. Almost like putting on a play but with a book. I think my DS could benefit greatly from this since really he's not such a great reader but to be able to "perform" might be great for him. And then if he could partner with someone that would read to him (these would have to be more the retirement ctrs as opposed to nursing facilities) but would be a huge benefit to him. Even though I do a lot of read aloud, he just needs a LOT of extra support in this area.
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Kathryn in TX
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 08 2014 at 1:26pm | IP Logged
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Barb.b wrote:
As much as I dislike the tests - I can't believe how many homeschool high school kids I have run into lately that are WAY behind in school (NOT here! but here where I live). Maybe its because in Texas there is no oversight of homeschoolers. I don't know. I do know I keep saying that these homeschoolers will give us all a bad name! AND be the reason that colleges will (at least for us homeschoolers) place a great emphasis on these tests!
Barb |
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I don't know Barb. I can tell you that I have 2 kids that are extreme ends. One does phenomenal and one is considered 2-3 grades behind level but that was the case when they were in private school and that's continued to be the case while we hs. What does "behind" really mean?  Isn't that why a lot of us hs b/c we don't want our children judged by the "standards" that the current education system places on them? I'm trying to get them each ready for what their respective futures hold...not what a test expects, not even what a college expects but where their talents and gifts and passions are and then we are trying to work around those things to find the most fitting place for them, not the other way around.
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Kathryn in TX
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Barb.b
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I get what your saying Kathryn. But I've been running into kids who are in high school and do maybe 3 subjects! One does chemistry (with dd in a small homeschool class), math on his own (literally!) and history! NO over site from his parents! These kids are intelligent, no learning disabilities - but don't know pre-algebra at the end of sophomore year. MORE THEN ONE FROM DIFFERENT FAMILIES. there seems to be a movement - at least around here - where the parents don't have any input, don't help, don't get involved in anyway! How is that? Very sad. So these kids are behind - because they don't do anything in school. and they can get away with it because its Texas (no real homeschool law). None of these kids would get any decent score in these tests!
So by NOT doing school (or very little of it) over the years - these parents limit the kids choices. Shouldn't getting into college be a choice for them? But for many its not because they are years behind and don't know how to do math, write, study, or anything. If they choose an alternate route then college - ok - but its not a choice if the can't go to college because they aren't prepared!
Sorry - a bit off post and I will get off my soap box!
Barb
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Martha
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| Posted: March 08 2014 at 6:25pm | IP Logged
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Barb -
I see it too. I think some of it is many home schoolers are told repeatedly not to worry about formally teaching and that goes double for high school. Because by then the student(s) should have magically developed not only a love of learning but the ability to self teach anything they want to know. If by some miracle someone has a child so gifted and agreeable, that's great, but I think it's a huge disservice to those parents to set them up to expect it as the norm.
The other issue is our nation as a whole is math and literacy deficient. We have a majority of parents who can barely manage PreAlgebra even with a calculator. And their attitude is often, "I didn't need algebra, my kids don't either." Well in theory none of us need more than water, a meal, and shelter, but most would agree it best to strive for far more than that.
I say that as someone with dyscalculia and a couple dc with their own issues. I'm not saying there aren't dc with valid learning problems. But no, that is not the problem with the majority. And many kids even with those issues can go much further with lots of work and help on the part of those around them.
I don't think testing fixes these issues, but it can be an effective tool for educators to see that someone who is struggling needs extra help. I've met many who scoff the testing material on the ITBS or ACT is nothing necessary to learning. And yeah, I find that greatly disturbing bc the vast majority of those exams is very basic knowledge. We're not talking calculus and research papers. We're talking arithmetic and a few paragraphs related to a short story.
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 10 2014 at 12:24pm | IP Logged
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I can see what you're saying that it appears far too many parents seem to be shirking their responsibility to actually homeschool. I guess I haven't really seen that but my oldest is just 9th grade. She does attend a part-time school and while she's studious, most of her friends are as well. But even at our local co-op the only ones I see not as "serious" are those with the younger set.
From personal experience too, the one thing that got me college ready was getting a job right after high school and after about 8 months realizing it was a dead-end world w/o a college degree. I moved back home and buckled down at the comm college, then transferred to university and graduated cum laude. NO ONE would have thought that possible given my mediocre high school performance (and no learning issues here except stubbornness  ). Granted, I always *knew* the value of an education (my single mom drilled it in my head) but I didn't "own it" and until I had a certain level of maturity. Luckily, it came sooner rather than later.
I also agree with Martha that there's not necessarily some "magic development" among high schoolers to see the value in their learning and def as parents we have to help direct this time in their life.
So, given all that I would dread to see any regulations put in place in TX about what homeschoolers should/shouldn't do. It's already an exceptionally overwhelming task to homeschool my son (with multiple learning issues) and if I had to jump through hoops to meet "state standards" it prob would be the end of the line. I can only do so much and I give everything (sometimes at the expense of my other 3) to get him reading at level, thinking more critically and staying current on his math. If there was state oversight, it would likely be no better than having him in public school and reminding him constantly that's he "way behind".
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mommy4ever
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We are quite regulated as homeschoolers where we live, we even have supervising school boards. Not all are created equal. I have encountered families where the kids openly brag that the only read they do is on a video game. They do no formal learning. When a child in grade 6 with no learning disability, still can't read, there is a problem. When the grade 8 is reading at a lower level than grade 3, there is an issue. But mom says, 'she'll pick it up when she's ready', it's really really sad.
I find we get looked down on in the homeschool community here, because I want excellent academics so that my kids can move on to anything. I do allow for some interest-led learning. Science within the parameters set is great. Same with art, music, phys ed. But I can't let her be to her own devices, not my older ones either! That is not fair to my kids.
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Martha
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Kathryn wrote:
I also agree with Martha that there's not necessarily some "magic development" among high schoolers to see the value in their learning and def as parents we have to help direct this time in their life.
So, given all that I would dread to see any regulations put in place in TX about what homeschoolers should/shouldn't do. |
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Wait. I am vehemently anti-regulations for home schoolers.  If for no other reason than I see absolutely zero reason to think it would create any better results than it has for public schools.
One can say, "hey, this exam (whatever exam it might be) shows some concerns that should be addressed." Without being pro regulation.
If my kid bombs his end of chapter math test, I take it as my duty to address why that happened and do my best to help them help themselves so it doesn't keep happening or get worse. I would *personally* feel neglectful if I did not do that. Because the point of any test is to evaluate whether the material was learned. If not, why? And if I don't care, then why am I wasting our time teaching it to begin with? Certainly there are many reasons for why a kid might struggle. Extra tired that day or felt rushed, a bad habit of skipping a problem solving step or missing directions, learning disabilities, or they just need to go back and spend more time on a concept, or or.
But the one response I've never ever had? To shrug it off with a "Oh well. If s/he ever really wants to know it they'll figure it out on their own because of necessity or because they love learning." IRL, that rarely works out that way. I wish it did, but it just rarely does. High school is basic knowledge foundation stuff. A kid who hasn't learned enough math to do biology or chemistry is highly unlikely to suddenly decide they want a career in science. Much less that they want it bad enough to endure the expense and time or taking lots of no credit remedial so classes just to start down that path. They sure don't seem to do that when graduating from public schools. And it's a major reason the highest demographic of unemployed people are those under 28, even with a degree. They literally can't manage the basics well enough to get employment.
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Martha
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Kathryn
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| Posted: March 10 2014 at 2:48pm | IP Logged
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Sorry Martha if that seemed to come across that I thought you (or Barb) were pushing for regulations. That just seems to be a "logical" next step when parents aren't overseeing their child's education and why many would be "ok" with regulations.
I do take my children's education very, very seriously, almost to the point of making myself sick sometimes b/c my son struggles so much and I try soooooo hard to help him and I worry so much about his future. And really, it's not for his lack of trying, he really just has some significant issues. I def don't believe in the mindset of "he (or she) will pick it when they're ready" b/c I can see that would literally NEVER happen with ds. The struggles are too great and he requires very systematic, very explicit instruction. Now my 2 school aged DDs are another story even though they're high school and elementary. I can already see how it comes easier and they both seek out that knowledge so I more guide them as opposed to instructing them.
I think we're discussing the differences among those that fall within the bell curve of learning (that's my new catch phrase ) and SHOULD have some structured learning. So, yes, I agree it's def a disservice to those children to not provide them opportunities and guidance and direction into their future. That's our job as parents when they've been entrusted to us. Sadly, that mind-set of "let them figure it out" may well be why regulations are pushed in the future.
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Kathryn in TX
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: SAT changes
