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Mackfam
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pumpkinmom wrote:
| I added in All About Spelling because my oldest just needs something else. It is really just a temporary experiment. My youngest is starting to out spell him. My youngest hangs out with us and does it too just because I don't want my oldest to think his younger brother spells better than him and doesn't need to do the lessons. |
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I might try splitting the boys completely for language arts so that your 13 yo doesn't feel inadequate and unnecessarily competitive. It's actually not unusual to have a younger child that "laps" an older child in an area that comes more naturally to them. The key is not to draw attention to it or shine a light so that the older child then begins to feel a lack of confidence. It's just not their area to shine.
And be careful back-filling with a spelling curriculum (AAS) on top of dictation lessons. It can lead to both you and your son being overwhelmed in terms of time and it's an added draw on your son.
pumpkinmom wrote:
| My boys won't sit and read for long periods of time, so literature is very short time for them. |
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I'm wondering why this is? Is it a skill issue? Or is it a  heart issue - they don't enjoy reading?
Since reading is such a PIVOT POINT in the day, maybe this could be a future thread and we can brainstorm this more with you??
pumpkinmom wrote:
| I'm wanting oldest to do IEW and we have started it, but it doesn't get done. Mostly because he can't watch more than 15 minutes of the DVD at a time and so it take forever to get done with a lesson. It's more writing than he wants to do too. My goal for January is work more on IEW. |
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IEW is intense - in approach, execution, and time spent. If this program is a priority for you, just know that this is going to take a lot of your/his time investment.
Only you can decide if IEW is a priority for you or not...but...I might consider re-working your schedule and living it a bit before adding it in because it's going to require such a withdrawal of time/energy/work.
Once you have established a more workable, reasonable schedule to your day and have begun to build good habits of independent work, I might decide which I want to add in next: Latin or IEW? What is the priority? If you try to add both to your schedule at once, you're likely to feel overwhelmed again because both will require significant time investments.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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SuzanneG
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Jen, if you have time, can you try to find that thread where you wrote a tome  about the logistics/details of keeping those boys focused? Cassie's son is 9, so maybe some of it not nec...but may spur some variations on those ideas.
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Suzanne in ID
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Mackfam
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SuzanneG wrote:
| Jen, if you have time, can you try to find that thread where you wrote a tome about the logistics/details of keeping those boys focused? Cassie's son is 9, so maybe some of it not nec...but may spur some variations on those ideas. |
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Ugh...I can't remember it!  I'll see if I can search. Was it recently?
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mackfam
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I think I found it:
Help! Kids working s-l-o-w-l-y on school.
Then...there's a little on this thread:
So frustrated...attitudes, school, etc.
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Jen Mackintosh
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SuzanneG
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Both of these threads are GREAT, Cassie, if you get a chance to read them.....and they deal with BOYS specifically!
I was thinking of the first one, I think...this part:
Mackfam wrote:
4) Use tools as leverage in your day
Distractions- for a boy, these can short-circuit an entire day! In general, anything that is a mystery, mildly interesting, confusing, perplexing, colorful, flashy, mechanical --> all these catch the young man's attention and he has to figure it out! Must.know.how.it.works!! Must.know.why.it.is.the.way.it.is! So...the key to distractions is to remove the mystery outside of lesson time so that when he sits down to work, he has already turned the gears of his brain enough that he doesn't have to *figure it out* right then and there! This does not remove every distraction, but it does remove several.
Look with *his eyes* - You can find more ways to give better tools when you sit down in *his chair* at *his desk* and look around with *his eyes*. See things the way he sees them. You'll find an old spring in his pen jar that begs to be coiled and released instead of working on math, his chair isn't perfectly level so he can sit there for half an hour rocking around on four legs, his table is pitted making his writing surface less than smooth and not pleasant to write on...and probably others, but you get the idea. Try to anticipate tools that may invite more distraction than fruitful work and see what you can do to make the way smoother.
Work on cultivating quiet work time in the day - you're cultivating silence. Start very, very small. Tell the whole family you're going to let everyone work in total silence for 5 minutes. No talking, singing, loud toys, radio. Set everyone up for success with books, color pencils, work that fits the bill for each little person. Set the timer and go. Encourage success by not engaging questions or sharing - just smile, put your finger over your mouth in the universal shush sign, smile, and refocus on your work. You can always invite sharing AFTER the quiet time. Then slowly stretch this each week until you can get the kids recognizing a quiet time of work! This is an EXTREMELY VALUABLE skill and habit! Take the time to cultivate it!
Daydreaming is not that unusual. I sometimes engage it and ask what they're thinking about. I enjoy the conversation, and then I might invite them to explore that after "x" is completed. |
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....for some reason, I thought it was written for the younger ones....but in this case, EVEN BETTER!
These things are super applicable for the INDEPENDENCE thread.
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Suzanne in ID
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SallyT
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Oh, I remember that thread.Such good stuff, and I still refer to it mentally all the time.
Sally
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pumpkinmom
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Thanks to everyone for responding! I think I took notes on every response I received on this post!! 
I agree with everyone in that we just need a change of schedule. Thanks to everyone, I'm seeing where I need to go in that direction.
I wanted to bring up a few things that I highlighted on the responses from yesterday and today. I used a lot of paper, but I printed it out and highlighted and made notes.  I think this will be helpful when sitting down to plan and not having to get online and refer to the post online . . . . I'm sure I would get distracted.
Mackfam wrote:
So, I don't know if that's encouraging or not, but I wanted it to be!! I don't think you're as far off the beaten path as you might think is what I'm trying to say!!! |
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Jen, Suzanne, and Sally (and those from earlier) you have been extremely encouraging! Your support means so much to me. 
More post to come . . . .
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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pumpkinmom
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Mackfam wrote:
pumpkinmom wrote:
9am-start school-morning basket: do three of the following-read aloud, geography, poetry memorization, character readings |
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How do your boys respond to this time? Do they enjoy it? Do you enjoy these read alouds? |
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They don't mind them and sometimes ask for more. If I could just get the oldest to stop with distractions. I'm pretty sure I posted about this in the past. We are still working on this!
Mackfam wrote:
An hour for lang. arts, if it isn't staggered well throughout the day, is going to be an overwhelming, even DAUNTING amount of work for boys 9 and 13. |
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Not only for them, but for me!  This area needs to be worked on and I highlighted a ton of stuff to consider. I see changes in this area in the future. I think I grouped it all together because it looked good on paper. I think we have too much going on and it needs to be cut back and rescheduled. I see us doing many of Jen's recommendations. I believe that was my game plan this summer and I got off track.
Mackfam wrote:
| Literature - I wouldn't even call this it's own subject (and I don't until I have to "label" it that way in high school - and then it just gets a label - we still proceed with our schedule as we always have). I consider things I've scheduled for reading throughout the day in history, the arts, sciences - all our literature. |
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I'm having a hard time with this one. I guess I can't get over not doing separate reading for literature. I do plan to ask questions in it's own thread next week.
Mackfam wrote:
Writing - Be careful asking for lots of writing from 9 and 12 yo boys. Writing works very much like reading as a skill - they get there when they get there. We don't have to push, make it overly structured, or kill their natural writer's voice in the process. For my 9 and 13 yo boys:
9 yo: I ask for daily copywork (10 min/daily), Freewrite Fridays
13 yo: Studied dictation (2x/week), written narrations (2x/week), Freewrite Fridays. {Sometimes 2 written narrations/week from my 13 yo is still a stretch. (Very different from my dd at this age, btw!)} My 13 yo and I walk ONE written narration through the editing process a term. |
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This is what I want from writing. People in public school keep telling me they need to be doing more and I worry and add more. Yet, they enjoy some writing and I want to improve their skills in this area to help them develop. This is were IEW came in and I have notes on that in a later post.
Mackfam wrote:
| Consider all of this independent reading that you've assigned, unless you want to choose ONE BOOK that you read aloud as part of your Morning Basket time. This is a GREAT TOOL for you! Referencing your *independent work* thread --> Once you've identified those areas you'd like to begin transitioning a child to independent work, you've found where you'll invest YOUR time --> you-child-work time. So, now you've listed their independent reading on their lesson plans (history, religion (except maybe Catechism lessons that would be brief), and science) - this is their LITERATURE. They grab their reading and go!! |
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I'm going to try! Catechism was originally done alone at the beginning of the school year and now I'm reading it to them. Jen, do your 9 & 13 year old do their catechism independently? I think mine could, but I'm struggling with that. It could easily be added into morning basket time too.
More . . . .
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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pumpkinmom
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Mackfam wrote:
pumpkinmom wrote:
| My boys won't sit and read for long periods of time, so literature is very short time for them. |
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I'm wondering why this is? Is it a skill issue? Or is it a heart issue - they don't enjoy reading?
Since reading is such a PIVOT POINT in the day, maybe this could be a future thread and we can brainstorm this more with you?? |
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Yes, a future thread! Maybe I will start that next week. I did ask some questions to my boys and I got some interesting answers from the youngest and not much from the oldest.
Mackfam wrote:
IEW is intense - in approach, execution, and time spent. If this program is a priority for you, just know that this is going to take a lot of your/his time investment. |
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I didn't realize how intense this program can be. It seemed like it would help him in his writing (which he has a small amount of interest and I wanted to run with that) but I think it is asking too much of him. I don't think he is ready for it yet.
Lots of great ideas to run with and work into a plan for January!
Thanks everyone for taking your precious time to help me through this! I may or may not make it to the independent work thread this evening.
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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SuzanneG
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pumpkinmom wrote:
I'm going to try! Catechism was originally done alone at the beginning of the school year and now I'm reading it to them. Jen, do your 9 & 13 year old do their catechism independently? I think mine could, but I'm struggling with that. It could easily be added into morning basket time too.
More . . . . |
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A couple of my girls do their catechism togetherwith each other, mostly without me. There is a thread where I talked about this.
Not always a good option , depending on the kids....but maybe something to consider.
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Suzanne in ID
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SuzanneG
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re: above catechism question / idea of doing it TOGETHER.
In this thread...Religion Program
SuzanneG wrote:
EmilyC wrote:
| I would love to see exactly how you use the Baltimore Catechism |
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I have a 4th grader and a 6th grader doing their catechism together. We use The New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism, No. 1. Each have their own copy. They have been doing this together for about 2 years, so I am not involved anymore nearly as much as I was at the beginning.
Day 1
:: Monday - With Mom - read through explanations and discuss any illustrations. Child #1-mom reads question, child answers. Then with Child #2- mom reads question, child answers. They each listen to the other. With mom - Discuss "Discussion Questions" at the back of the chapter. I schedule about 30 minutes for this. Most of the time it does NOT take this long (usually only about 15-20 min) ......but some chapters beg for more discussion, so I like to assume more time. Also, if we have some extra time, I go through previous chapter questions to keep up the memorization and wording and understanding. Maybe 2-5 min with each child.
Day 2
:: Both kids ask each other the questions. Give answers. Reading from the book. Depending on how many questions are in one lesson, you could break this up, depending on how your kids do with memorizing. ie: 3 questions one week, three questions the next week. So, you're staying on one lesson for more than one week, which is fine, of course. You want to set them up for success, so don't ask for too many questions to be memorized at once, unless you know they can handle it. My girls have been doing this for awhile, so they know what they can handle, so I don't really have anything to do with how they are breaking them up. But, if they were new at it, I would look at the questions on Monday and make some marks in the book for ONLY "those questions" to be worked on that week.
:: Do YES / NO questions together and explain your answers to each other. (When they were new at this, I made sure they were doing it at the breakfast bar when I was making lunch, so I could listen in and help break up any arguments, or one child rushing the other.
Day 3
:: Both kids ask each other the questions. Give answers. Reading from the book. Then try to do it memorized without looking at the book.
:: Do fill in the blanks.
Day 4
:: Both kids ask each other the questions. Give answers. No book. If they are having trouble, work on it with each other.
:: Look up 2 of the other bible readings. Read aloud.
Day 5
:: Mom asks questions to each (memorization). Mom asks 1 or 2 of the discussion questions to make sure they can explain in their own words.
:: Decide if they should move on to next chapter or stay on this one.
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Now, because you have boys and they are on the "younger side" of my two who are doing it, and because this is new to them......you're going to have to be involved much more than I am. But, the goal, is that they can do it together after awhile.
Also, if you see them getting glassy eyed and complaining that this is "boring"....REALLY break it down and make it FAST!!!! And, I mean UNDER 5 minutes fast! If you start getting resistance, just focus on the "Monday morning lesson".....which you could cut in half.....only do HALF the explanations and then do the corresponding 1 or 2 questions for that week. Forget the "things at the back of the chapter" and just work for a couple minutes every day on memorizing / reading through 1-3 questions.
:: You ask question.
:: He READS the answer, unless he WANTS to recite it without the book, but don't force the issue.
:: Next child....you ask question
:: He READS the answer.
That's it.
Then build from there. Think of how you would help a K or 1st grader to memorize a poem. And, build from there.
This is a non-negotiable in our house, so I really want to set them up for success, b/c it's something they'll be doing until they graduate. So, I'm in NO HURRY and I want them to think of it as "no big deal." It shouldn't be painful. It doesn't have to be fun, but it COULD be!
I've seen the gleam in their eyes when they memorize hard passages and are able to explain the faith in their own words, but using words they have memorized. |
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In case your 12 yo is working on #2.....
Mackfam wrote:
SuzanneG wrote:
| Would love to hear how others use No. 2! |
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Baltimore Catechism #2 :: Assign 1 lesson/week
:: Day 1: Student reads lesson and narrates (either written or oral)
:: Day 2: Mom (or older sibling) asks T/F and Fill-in-blank questions from end of chapter (answered orally). (10 - 15 min)
:: Day 3: Discussion questions - usually not all, just 1 - 3. Mom may assign topics from the Baltimore Catechism chapter to study further using the CCC (intro to how to use the larger Catechism, how to look things up in the index, etc.)
:: Day 4: *Read from the Bible* section. Student reads the Bible verses that pertain to that lesson. Discuss. (10 - 15 min)
:: Day 5: Oral review of questions from end of chapter OR choose another discussion question as a writing prompt for a written narration since the student should now THOROUGHLY know the subject.
With each successive Catechism I am involved more and more as a discussion point of reference as we dig into meatier parts of the faith. We only memorize #1. The memorization time spent with the Baltimore Catechism #1 has served each of my kids well, providing little pegs and reference points for them. I do think it's very important to keep going deeper after Baltimore Catechism #1 and give a child the tools to know their faith, to find out why, to see what the Church says on a given subject and know where to look. As they have each matured in their faith, they move forward very naturally from that initial memorization of the Baltimore Catechism. I have found weekly evidence in our discussions that affirm our initial memorization - a child references an answer they remember, and now they've found something about that Q&A that either addresses something they've encountered, or prompts digging deeper and understanding further. So, I continue to find value in that initial investment of time spent memorizing. |
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Suzanne in ID
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Mackfam
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pumpkinmom wrote:
| I used a lot of paper, but I printed it out and highlighted and made notes. I think this will be helpful when sitting down to plan and not having to get online and refer to the post online . |
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That's actually really great! I've done that before when digging through the archives here and coming up with ideas! Glad you did that!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mackfam
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pumpkinmom wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
pumpkinmom wrote:
9am-start school-morning basket: do three of the following-read aloud, geography, poetry memorization, character readings |
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How do your boys respond to this time? Do they enjoy it? Do you enjoy these read alouds? |
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They don't mind them and sometimes ask for more. If I could just get the oldest to stop with distractions. I'm pretty sure I posted about this in the past. We are still working on this! |
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Is the oldest causing distractions...or getting distracted?
It's good that this is a workable time for you. You could consider moving the Geography reading to independent reading, and then give yourself that spot for a fun, meaty, exciting living history read aloud.
pumpkinmom wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
| Literature - I wouldn't even call this it's own subject (and I don't until I have to "label" it that way in high school - and then it just gets a label - we still proceed with our schedule as we always have). I consider things I've scheduled for reading throughout the day in history, the arts, sciences - all our literature. |
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I'm having a hard time with this one. I guess I can't get over not doing separate reading for literature. I do plan to ask questions in it's own thread next week. |
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That will be great to brainstorm more with you on this - especially if you're struggling with this idea.
Let me give you an example:
Book title: The Prince and the Pauper by Mark Twain. It's certainly Literature, but it also covers 16th century England - history. Now, you could assign it as Literature reading because it's on someone's list of Literature-for-Middle-School (whatever THAT means! ) and have your son read it as "Literature" while you study Ancient History, or American History, or whatever you're studying and reading about elsewhere on your schedule. Or...you could just assign it as part of the scheduled reading because you're studying 16th century England. Now the book is within context - you're reading it alongside other material that supports and fleshes out that historical time period. At the same time, your child is exposed to Twain's writing style, as well as a great deal of material that helps understand and put a face on 16th century England. You can pull copywork out of it, dictation, too, if you like. You can enjoy some fabulous narrations from it. And you can rest assured that he's reading Literature THAT IS HISTORICALLY BASED - HISTORY.
So, there are really three things that could go on here:
1) You pull your literature selections from the historical period you're studying and you're assigning DOUBLE the amount of reading so that you can feel like he has a Literature book and History reading going on at the same time.
2) You pull your literature selections off a list of *this-is-literature-a-child-his-age-should-read* and schedule it. In addition to the literature books, you're also assigning history and other reading.
3) You recognize that worthy and excellent history reading (historical fiction) IS literary reading and you build your history reading list from worthy literature of the period, thus killing two birds with one stone.
pumpkinmom wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
Writing - Be careful asking for lots of writing from 9 and 12 yo boys. Writing works very much like reading as a skill - they get there when they get there. We don't have to push, make it overly structured, or kill their natural writer's voice in the process. For my 9 and 13 yo boys:
9 yo: I ask for daily copywork (10 min/daily), Freewrite Fridays
13 yo: Studied dictation (2x/week), written narrations (2x/week), Freewrite Fridays. {Sometimes 2 written narrations/week from my 13 yo is still a stretch. (Very different from my dd at this age, btw!)} My 13 yo and I walk ONE written narration through the editing process a term. |
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This is what I want from writing. People in public school keep telling me they need to be doing more and I worry and add more. Yet, they enjoy some writing and I want to improve their skills in this area to help them develop. This is were IEW came in and I have notes on that in a later post. |
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Can't wait to brainstorm that with you! But for now, I do get what you're saying! Public school ANYTHING is going to look and feel very different from what we're doing at home. One of your challenges might be politely ignoring the public school "people" that freely offer ideas and observations about the gazillions of book reports your kids aren't writing, and anything else that your kids aren't doing that their kids are. There's nothing wrong with nurturing writing!! Just work with the child in mind - you're encouraging his voice so that he can express his thoughts clearly and compellingly - so that he can join in "the Great Conversation" one day. Completing a canned writing assignment isn't a box you have to check to get there. 
Anyway...we can definitely brainstorm more on that if you'd like!!
pumpkinmom wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
| Consider all of this independent reading that you've assigned, unless you want to choose ONE BOOK that you read aloud as part of your Morning Basket time. This is a GREAT TOOL for you! Referencing your *independent work* thread --> Once you've identified those areas you'd like to begin transitioning a child to independent work, you've found where you'll invest YOUR time --> you-child-work time. So, now you've listed their independent reading on their lesson plans (history, religion (except maybe Catechism lessons that would be brief), and science) - this is their LITERATURE. They grab their reading and go!! |
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I'm going to try! Catechism was originally done alone at the beginning of the school year and now I'm reading it to them. Jen, do your 9 & 13 year old do their catechism independently? I think mine could, but I'm struggling with that. It could easily be added into morning basket time too. |
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Suzanne quoted some ideas for Catechism lessons so hopefully that gives you more ideas.
I'm much more involved with my 9 yo than I am with my 13 yo. For my 13 yo, I'm more of a discussion spring board. He reads on his own, narrates, we discuss, I may ask a further question for him to research and answer. For my 9 yo, I read the catechism and we work on his Q&A together.
Depending on *where* your boys are in the Catechism, and if they're in the same Catechism, you might include them on lessons together (as long as this doesn't become an issue of competition), or you could split them up and just work with them in 10 min bits of time each day. For your 13 yo, if he's finished Baltimore Catechism #1 and is just reviewing #2, you might also consider a book (saints bio, age appropriate theology) that is a little bit of a stretch for him, whatever reading level that might be right now, and build that into his reading time.
Really, there are a lot of different ways you could approach this one, Cassie! Your idea of moving it to Morning Basket could certainly work (esp if they're both working from the same catechism, which is totally fine!), then you tackle Catechism Q & A for 10 min each morning, and then they have a living religion book on their schedule that they read independently later that day and narrate to you.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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pumpkinmom
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I'm being lazy and not quoting, but I'm mostly referring to Jen's last post.
My oldest struggles sitting for morning basket. He struggles sitting still and not talking. I'm thinking about getting a trampoline in the living room and letting him jump (behind me-motion distracts me while reading). He seems to need to be in constant motion. He also talks as soon as I stop. Turn the page, he starts a random conversation, typically about minecraft. I really don't think he is paying attention.
I do understand the literature thing. I could do that.
Writing! I think I go back and worth with my writing philosophy between a CM inspired and a classical inspired vision. CM (Bravewriter) appeals to me more and this is what I want, but I keep getting off track. I think my lack of a vision or plan for the future is the problem. I need a written plan.
Catechism! Actually this is our first year using the Baltimore Catechism. In the past we have used Faith and Life or nothing. They are both working through #1. I want my 12 yo to finish it this year and start #2 next year. I plan to use #1 with my 9 yo for another year. So far we have been doing it together. I'm lacking a plan for this at the time. Right now I read it to them in one day. Our goal is to review it together on another day or for them to review the lesson alone on another day. This rarely happens. I'm hoping working on the schedule will prevent this from getting dropped.
__________________
Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
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pumpkinmom
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| Posted: March 25 2014 at 8:51am | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
pumpkinmom wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
Writing - Be careful asking for lots of writing from 9 and 12 yo boys. Writing works very much like reading as a skill - they get there when they get there. We don't have to push, make it overly structured, or kill their natural writer's voice in the process. For my 9 and 13 yo boys:
9 yo: I ask for daily copywork (10 min/daily), Freewrite Fridays
13 yo: Studied dictation (2x/week), written narrations (2x/week), Freewrite Fridays. {Sometimes 2 written narrations/week from my 13 yo is still a stretch. (Very different from my dd at this age, btw!)} My 13 yo and I walk ONE written narration through the editing process a term. |
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This is what I want from writing. People in public school keep telling me they need to be doing more and I worry and add more. Yet, they enjoy some writing and I want to improve their skills in this area to help them develop. This is were IEW came in and I have notes on that in a later post. |
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Can't wait to brainstorm that with you! But for now, I do get what you're saying! Public school ANYTHING is going to look and feel very different from what we're doing at home. One of your challenges might be politely ignoring the public school "people" that freely offer ideas and observations about the gazillions of book reports your kids aren't writing, and anything else that your kids aren't doing that their kids are. There's nothing wrong with nurturing writing!! Just work with the child in mind - you're encouraging his voice so that he can express his thoughts clearly and compellingly - so that he can join in "the Great Conversation" one day. Completing a canned writing assignment isn't a box you have to check to get there.
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Hey, Jen! I'm ready to brainstorm this writing issue!
Over the Christmas holiday I listened to some of Andrew Pudewa talks and really became encouraged about writing. So much that I pulled IEW Student Writing Intensive back out. The pros is that I really think it's a great approach to writing and I enjoy the way he teaches it. Ds 13 can do it and enjoys the writing projects some of the time and he does well. The cons are that this program is intense and takes a lot for me to teach it. It is the first thing to get dropped when we are running behind which makes it hard to do the lessons when they are so spaced apart. Ds 13 has bad days with the program and completely shuts down and refuses to take part. He starts complaining about how he hates it. He did this yesterday (after complaining for 10 minutes about how he asked me not to buy this program in the first place), but I got him started on it and he completed the assignment just fine except the awful look on his face. Ds 9 got in on the complaining this time and told me he will never use this program! Is it really worth the fight?
I need someone to tell me my boy's writing will turn out just fine without a formal writing program. At the moment I don't believe it! I feel like my lack of knowledge in writing (mostly grammar) will cause problems. This is why I feel I need the guidance of a formal program.
I came back and reread many post here last night for inspiration. I made a list of possible writing assignments. I think I will reread some of The Writing Jungle (perhaps it's time to buy the high school one).
9 yo ds: copywork, copywork, copywork! I may have him start some letter writing too. I want to start working on written narrations, but his handwriting is so poor that I'm not sure if it's possible. Letter formation is still an issue with this one. He can do it, but he takes him more concentration than he has most days to do it.
13 yo ds: letter writing, rewriting stories (this is pretty much what he did with the IEW writing program and I think he enjoys it every so often), freewriting, and work on written narrations (his are very general and I think he needs to work on expanding)
Is this enough?
__________________
Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
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mommy4ever
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| Posted: March 31 2014 at 4:14pm | IP Logged
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We are working with IEW. I think it is well worth it. But we are doing it as a year long project rather than 15 or 16 weeks. We are in the final 6 weeks now.
What I really like about it all, is that after the first Student intensive, is the themes that can be used. We will use it again next year, a theme unit. If anyone here is Canadian, www.excellentresources.net is a distributor and has Canadian content versions as well. My dd10 has enjoyed learning with it so far. There are times it's intense and we need to take a break, but we keep moving forward and her evaluations for writing are very positive.
But, all that said, you need to work with your child. I was scared of it initially, so I resisted for several years, but now I am so happy we did finally do it.
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Mom to 4,
1 graduated June 2012
1 in Catholic school
2 homeschooled(one considering art school!)
ardently praying for a new addition to our family.
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Mom21
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| Posted: April 01 2014 at 3:20pm | IP Logged
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I say this with all charity, but yes, I do think any child needs at least a structured writing program to succeed at writing. It helps in so many ways, from being able to write paragraphs, outlines, book reports, book analyses, research papers and the like.
Incorporate writing into a child's other subjects, such as reading, spelling, vocabulary and history. One thing we do is that instead of always doing dry workbook lessons, we instead turn it into a writing assignment. Instead of filling out definitions for 25 spelling words, write 5-10 solid sentences using spelling words. In a history lesson, write an outline of the chapter highlights or paragraph of a certain aspect your child found interesting.
Simple daily things such as writing an outline and/or a 5-sentence paragraph (topic sentence, 3 middle sentences, final sentence) can help in the bigger things such as book reports and other formal papers. If a child can write an outline and a solid paragraph, they are well on their way to writing longer assignments.
Hang in there, you can do it!! 
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 01 2014 at 4:37pm | IP Logged
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pumpkinmom wrote:
| Hey, Jen! I'm ready to brainstorm this writing issue! |
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Great! I've been waiting for a few quiet minutes in my afternoon to get back and post here! Let's get started!
pumpkinmom wrote:
| Over the Christmas holiday I listened to some of Andrew Pudewa talks and really became encouraged about writing. So much that I pulled IEW Student Writing Intensive back out. The pros is that I really think it's a great approach to writing and I enjoy the way he teaches it. Ds 13 can do it and enjoys the writing projects some of the time and he does well. The cons are that this program is intense and takes a lot for me to teach it. It is the first thing to get dropped when we are running behind which makes it hard to do the lessons when they are so spaced apart. Ds 13 has bad days with the program and completely shuts down and refuses to take part. He starts complaining about how he hates it. He did this yesterday (after complaining for 10 minutes about how he asked me not to buy this program in the first place), but I got him started on it and he completed the assignment just fine except the awful look on his face. Ds 9 got in on the complaining this time and told me he will never use this program! Is it really worth the fight? |
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I'm not going to be much help with this. You're going to have to decide if this program is a priority for you. If so, then you'll treat it like that in the schedule, and for the boys, it is simply a part of the day - like math and history reading. Non-negotiable. They don't have to like it, but it must be done out of discipline.
Now...having said that...is it necessary? Nope. And my own (!! - emphasis on that, this is my own review and opinion...definitely NOT the only opinion!) observation is that IEW, in particular, can squash a writer's very personal and unique voice, in its very noble and worthy attempt to help a writer through the building blocks of writing. I'm passionate about it, and unapologetic - I believe there are better ways to build skill in writing while allowing a young writer to retain their voice and grow in confidence. Does that make IEW a bad program? Nope. Lots of homeschoolers use it with success. But, it isn't the only way. I would caution against any canned, forced, contrived, artificial writing assignments (book reports and canned writing prompts fall into this category). Allow them to:
** re-write a story from a favorite character's perspective (or from a very minor character's perspec - these make great papers!!)
** submit product reviews
** write letters to the editor
** write letters to family, congressmen, local business owners
** change an ending to a story and re-write it.
** pretend they write for the newspaper of the day, and write an article chronicling a historic event.
...etc. These have grit, they're relevant to the student, and they invite the student to write in their own voice.
pumpkinmom wrote:
| I need someone to tell me my boy's writing will turn out just fine without a formal writing program. |
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It absolutely can! But this doesn't mean that they will receive NO writing instruction from you. It simply means that before they run a marathon, they have to learn to walk...then jog...then run. And they have to build skill and stamina with each of those before that marathon. And...it also means that 4th graders don't need to be running marathons (book reports and the like) - let the boys exercise their writing muscles in developmentally appropriate ways. First...oral narrations...then start small with written narrations. Build on those, help them walk a written narration through the editing process...and so on.
pumpkinmom wrote:
| At the moment I don't believe it! I feel like my lack of knowledge in writing (mostly grammar) will cause problems. This is why I feel I need the guidance of a formal program. |
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Everyone senses a magnification of their own weak areas in this. You have two options here - resolve to use a decent grammar guide to help you, or delegate this. I have learned so much more at my children's side than I ever did in my school days - so, for what it's worth - you certainly CAN do this. But again, it's like the IEW decision, you can't stay on the fence here - you'll either resolve to learn right alongside...or resolve that this isn't a hill you want to die on, and delegate. But ambiguity (very different from, "I don't know the answer to that, I'll figure it out and we'll go forward...") will be something those boys pick up on and run with. Which is why I encourage a prayerful decision with that before you go forward. BUT...I really want to encourage you to try this on your own! If you lack confidence, consider enrolling your oldest in one of Julie's classes - Just So Stories would be a great class - or maybe KidsWrite Basic. But...the great thing about Julie's classes is that they help YOU become a great writing instructor! Which, from what you're saying here, is where you lack confidence. So, it might be a good investment in your children.
pumkinmom wrote:
| I came back and reread many post here last night for inspiration. I made a list of possible writing assignments. I think I will reread some of The Writing Jungle (perhaps it's time to buy the high school one). |
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Great that you came back for ideas! The Writer's Jungle is perfect for where the boys are! I wouldn't move to Help For Highschool until your older son is ready to walk through an essay.
Ok...remembering that my boys and your boys are very similar in age helps me as I read through this...
pumpkinmom wrote:
| 9 yo ds: copywork, copywork, copywork! |
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Be careful that you don't overdo copywork. It's a great skill - but only 15 minutes of best effort. That's it.
pumpkinmom wrote:
| I may have him start some letter writing too. I want to start working on written narrations, but his handwriting is so poor that I'm not sure if it's possible. Letter formation is still an issue with this one. He can do it, but he takes him more concentration than he has most days to do it. |
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You're doing great evaluating him. Trust your instinct to continue building skill in penmanship until he has that mastered, then start written narrations. I'm in the same boat with my 9yo. He's still mastering cursive so we haven't yet started written narrations.
Now, one thing you can do to start walking them forward toward a written narration is to have them narrate orally, while you transcribe what they write. Then print it. This helps them *see* THEIR words, THEIR narration in a written form and has really helped my older two transition to written narrations. Since the writing is done by you, while they do the mental work, this is fine to start with now with your 9 yo.
pumpkinmom wrote:
| 13 yo ds: letter writing, rewriting stories (this is pretty much what he did with the IEW writing program and I think he enjoys it every so often), freewriting, and work on written narrations (his are very general and I think he needs to work on expanding) |
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Oh my stars - FANTASTIC!!!
He's on the way!!! If this is what he's doing, Cassie, then he is doing great!! When he "rewrites" stories, he's essentially following a Classical Writing formation - the Progymnasmata. Big word for --> rewriting a classic story in your own words. Now, in the Progym, students rewrote progressively more difficult stories, starting with fables and moving forward. You DON'T NEED a canned program for this - Merciful heavens!! - he's doing it already! Now, if you need hand-holding, that's fine. But it's really very simple - get a GOOD story. Re-write it using your own words. That, my friend, is a written narration. Start with short, short stories (which is why in the Progym, they start with fables) and encourage your son to come up with colorful words to retell the story in his own words. Polish it and edit it using the process Julie explains in Writer's Jungle - there you have it!! A writing program!
** Read good literature (very, very short pieces at first)
** Outline it.
** Re-write it.
** Walk it through the editing process (only do this once-a-month)
That's it!
Jumping up and down --> Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! At least, for centuries, classical educators thought so! Benjamin Franklin seemed to do ok with it. All he did - ALL HE DID - to learn to write...was to read someone else's writing, and re-write it.
Mom21 wrote:
I say this with all charity, but yes, I do think any child needs at least a structured writing program to succeed at writing. It helps in so many ways, from being able to write paragraphs, outlines, book reports, book analyses, research papers and the like.
Incorporate writing into a child's other subjects |
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Oh, I definitely agree with Mom21 that writing should be in context - so keep it anchored to your history reading or science living books.
I also, in all charity, disagree quite strongly that a structured writing program is necessary to build a writer. And it would seem that history proves that out. Charlotte Mason's students never used a structured program and weren't even instructed on formal writing until upper high school levels. From reading her writing and influences, it is most likely that she was instructed on and used the ideas in the Progymnasmata that you, Cassie, are already using in your home with your boys. She felt strongly that formal writing instruction be sparing and not introduced at all until upper Forms. The cornerstone in her writing curriculum? Written narrations of a selection or story. Plutarch didn't have a writing curriculum. Benjamin Franklin didn't have a formal program to use either; he was inspired and instructed by other great writers. The list here could be endless. Classical education is replete with examples that should be enough to give you confidence in moving forward here. The key, to good writing, is actually pretty simple - it's good reading.
Keep the boys' reading rich and living, Cassie - encourage them in their written narrations by allowing them to build good writing muscles and stamina by walking toward an independent writer one-step-at-a-time. First, with exciting and detailed oral narrations, then with (simple, and yes, general at first) written narrations. Help them learn to outline simply and then slowly and gently expand the material for their written narrations.
Brandy, at AfterThoughts, is writing an excellent series on using the Progymnasmata and I thought you might enjoy following along with her thoughts:
Applying the Progymnasmata to Ambleside and CM-ing the Progym - An Upcoming Series.
So...yes! You've got enough here, Cassie, and your boys are doing GREAT! Written narrations do take time to mature and develop. If you're looking for more help - I love so many of Julie Bogart's (The Writer's Jungle) writing suggestions for building a writer's confidence and skill with her writing suggestions. I enjoy using the Progym in my home, in much the same way that you are right now! I, too, have had to work with my own weak areas in grammar and mechanics - so to a large extent, I've learned right alongside. This CAN be done without any packaged curriculum, Cassie! It DOES take work and commitment on your part, so I don't want to excuse this as something not requiring your due diligence. But in the end, it's my experience thus far, that the student emerges with their writing voice intact, bolstered with a rich and extensive vocabulary from their reading, and able to navigate the skills needed to run that "writing marathon". Their voice, having matured by the time they graduate and not having been smothered by canned assignments, is clear and rings true as they step into the Great Conversation!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 01 2014 at 5:11pm | IP Logged
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Ugh...I proofed my post, but I forgot to add something I think could be helpful when starting out in writing. At least, it would have been helpful to me, and still is as I consider how we progress through writing.
Consider three sources I mention in my post, all of which I enjoy, and all of which intersect in many places:
(1) Julie Bogart's The Writer's Jungle
and
(2) The Progymnasmata - a Classical "writing program" (for lack of a better description) that builds a writer using excellent and noble literature to teach the student to mimic the writer, using the student's voice. (A good program to give some hand-holding, if this is needed, is Memoria Press' Classical Composition - there is much busy-work in this program that a CM-er would already be doing in their home, but the basics of the Progym are explained nicely in this series, and so, I recommend it if you need footing or hand-holding in starting with the Progym).
and
(3) Charlotte Mason's own philosophy and methods in assisting a child into more and more formal writing.
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I just wanted to distinguish a few things since I know this board is mainly composed of those using Charlotte Mason's methods in their home education.
** In Bravewriter and The Writer's Jungle you will find more of an emphasis on creative writing. I tend to part ways here with Writer's Jungle just a bit. Although we do enjoy FreeWrite Fridays at times, for the most part, I leave creative/fictional writing to the child and his/her free time. It's not that I don't see value or good in creative/fictional writing (I do!) - it's just not something I make a part of our curriculum.
** Classical education (using the Progym) emphasizes the careful reading of excellent literature and learning to re-write that piece, using your own words. Sometimes, an emphasis can tend toward structure and format (see my aforementioned comments on IEW) in this approach, so care is needed to foster a child's unique and God-given voice when following a strict interpretation of the Progym.
** Finally, what I consider the perfect intersection: Charlotte Mason's philosophy and methods. VERY important not to separate the two here! One (philosophy) gives voice to the other (methods). Here's where CM once again excels. She follows the Progym so closely (without ever saying so - which I don't think implies that she didn't want to say so, just that it would have been, at that time, recognizable in its own right so it didn't need to be labeled), but she is always so aware and respectful of the *child-as-person*. Her approach was the same as in the Progym (read from lit., then write), but she wanted the child's voice to find a place in that writing, and even insisted on it:
Charlotte Mason, Toward a Phil of Ed wrote:
| they should read on a theme before they write upon it, using then as much latitude as they like. |
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This to me is typical in all of Mason's methods - purposeful work that always meets the child where they are developmentally. There is a place for the child's voice: opinions, even perhaps one could propose, their imaginings - it is within their writing on a given reading. They insert it in their writing more and more, quite naturally, as they mature. But there is no pressure to provide this - it simply emerges and develops as the child grows and matures. And again, this is such a natural extension of the oral narration, and is also so respectful of the natural development of the child. It doesn't ask a child to give an abstract evaluation before they're able to make those connections (this is my BIGGEST complaint regarding reading comp questions often found in texts).
I know I hadn't made these connections between the different approaches we use (Bogart/Writers Jungle, Classic Ed/Progym, CM/Written Narrations & Comp) UNTIL I began walking them with my children over the years. But, I appreciate seeing the differences now, and affirming an ever growing understanding and appreciation for Mason's philosophy and methods - she was able to see Classical ideas and their beauty. She implemented them in ways that always sought the child as a person, met the child where the child is at a given moment, never forced an abstract or artificial moment or production of work.
Always intuitive, Mason's ideas never disappoint me.
Not sure if any of those thoughts are helpful, but they strike me as something that at least in clarifying them, could be helpful in considering how a program could be a tool, and which philosophy should be a primary foundation.
Ok...I'm done serial posting!  And off to make bruschetta chicken!! YUM!!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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pumpkinmom
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| Posted: April 01 2014 at 9:16pm | IP Logged
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Jen, thank you for taking the time to walk me through this! It is much appreciated and very helpful!
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
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4Real Forums : Planning and Ordering our Days
Topic: Smooth Homeschooling Days
