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CrunchyMom
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Just to be clear, *I* didn't read the discussion, Amanda shared in the OP
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| I recently joined her yahoo group. I believe this post came from a discussion there. In discussion History alternatives to TCOO, she stated that a certain American History book we've discussed is twaddle and and that one should stick with This Country of Ours. I saw them as comparable but that the other one is more accessible and more narrative, with less Catholic issues to be worried about. Now I wonder if I can even tell what twaddle is. What do you think? Is there room for discussion about this? About what twaddle really is? I know Ambleside sticks to TCOO... |
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And she didn't actually SAY it was the Pratt stories, I just knew that Amanda and I had been discussing them as an alternative to TCOO on the board here. Amanda was more reserved and withheld the title, so I probably should not have presumed to offer it.
I share her discouragement in not always trusting myself to know what it twaddle and what is not. I chose Pratt thinking it read like Eggleston, which I knew my son to find engaging. I have not read all her stories, but I do know that my son got very bogged down in the multiple chapters on Christopher Columbus, so I read her single chapter on Christopher Columbus as a gauge. Here is a passage from it:
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"And if the earth were round," said others, "and if this crazy man could sail down and stand upon his head on the other side of the sphere, how, pray, could he ever get back again? Has he learned to sail up hill?"
This was indeed unanswerable, so they all thought. Of course he could not, and of course he was a fool to think of such a thing. And so Columbus was sent away in disgrace, while the "wise men" entertained their friends [46] for days after with the absurd story the crazy Genoese had told them.
"I will go to France," said Columbus to the good monk, when, discouraged and weary at heart he returned to the convent with the story of his defeat. "There is no hope for me in Spain."
"Wait, wait," said the monk. "I myself will go to the queen. I cannot bear that this honor should pass into the hands of the French. I will go to Isabella and beg her again to give you a hearing."
And so it was that once more Columbus waited and was led at last into the presence of the only one in all Spain who seemed to be kind enough at heart and to be far sighted enough to know that Columbus was neither foolish nor crazy.
After long hesitation—for it was not an [47] easy matter in those days to fit out a fleet, nor was it a politic thing for Isabella to move in opposition to all the advice of her countrymen, she sent this word to Columbus: "I will undertake this enterprise for my own kingdom of Castile; and I will pledge my jewels, if need be, to raise the funds." |
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This does not read like twaddle to me. It IS simpler and less complicated than TCOO with fewer details to retain, but it's hardly "Dick and Jane Discover America" either.
I've always really LIKED the fact that CM gives me the freedom to dismiss twaddle and be choosey. It is frustrating to think I cannot discern it as I'd like.
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Lindsay
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Nov 01 2012 at 11:41am | IP Logged
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I see that I cross-posted with Amanda!
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Lindsay
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Nov 01 2012 at 11:46am | IP Logged
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AmandaV wrote:
Mackfam wrote:
Interesting. I can see how your reading of that article would be influenced by the discussion you read. Since I didn't read the yahoo discussion, nor is it public, I won't ask questions about the details of it.  And I don't mean to be flippant or disrespectful to the author of the article at all here - I just don't care. I find those kind of details to be trespassing within the great malleability which exists within a Charlotte Mason education. |
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Jen, I was trying to be general in my first question, but was I too specific, and maybe I should take down my remarks other than the article link? I don't want to be posting inappropriately. I really respect her expertise and then questioned my judgement but I don't want to be discussing out of turn.
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No worries! I just meant that *I* didn't want to ask questions about it and discuss the particulars of that conversation because it's on a private list. I think it's fine that you mentioned the discussion because it has a context within the bigger question overall here, Amanda. You were perfectly general in all your comments while providing context in your initial post, Amanda, and I think it's fine as it stands!
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JennGM
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CrunchyMom wrote:
This does not read like twaddle to me. It IS simpler and less complicated than TCOO with fewer details to retain, but it's hardly "Dick and Jane Discover America" either.
I've always really LIKED the fact that CM gives me the freedom to dismiss twaddle and be choosey. It is frustrating to think I cannot discern it as I'd like. |
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Going back to Amanda's OP question, are you saying that Pratt is Twaddle?
Let's define Twaddle, because while it's not a HARD book, I'd scarcely call that Twaddle!
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Mackfam
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One of the best compilations on Charlotte Mason's thoughts on twaddle I've found is at Simply Charlotte Mason:
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Here are some key thoughts taken from Charlotte’s comments.
Talking down to a child
“Grown-up people who are not mothers talk and think far more childishly than the child does in their efforts to approach his mind. If a child talk twaddle, it is because his elders are in the habit of talking twaddle to him; leave him to himself, and his remarks are wise and sensible so far as his small experience guides him. Mothers seldom talk down to their children; they are too intimate with the little people, and have, therefore, too much respect for them: but professional teachers, whether the writers of books or the givers of lessons, are too apt to present a single grain of pure knowledge in a whole gallon of talk, imposing upon the child the labour of discerning the grain and of extracting it from the worthless flood” (Vol. 1, p. 175).
Diluted
“. . . the sort of diluted twaddle which is commonly thrust upon children” (Vol. 1, p. 176).
Undervaluing the intelligence of a child
“. . . greatly undervaluing the intelligence of her children. I know a person of three who happened to be found by a caller alone in the drawing-room. It was spring, and the caller thought to make himself entertaining with talk about the pretty ‘baa-lambs.’ But a pair of big blue eyes were fixed upon him and a solemn person made this solemn remark, “Isn’t it a dwefful howid thing to see a pig killed!” We hope she had never seen or even heard of the killing of a pig, but she made as effective a protest against twaddle as would any woman of Society” (Vol. 1, p. 187).
“I am speaking now of his lesson-books, which are all too apt to be written in a style of insufferable twaddle, probably because they are written by persons who have never chanced to meet a child. All who know children know that they do not talk twaddle and do not like it, and prefer that which appeals to their understanding” (Vol. 1, p. 229).
Reading-made-easy
“As for what are called children’s books, the children of educated parents are able to understand history written with literary power, and are not attracted by the twaddle of reading-made-easy little history books” (Vol. 1, p. 281).
“They must grow up upon the best. There must never be a period in their lives when they are allowed to read or listen to twaddle or reading-made-easy. There is never a time when they are unequal to worthy thoughts, well put; inspiring tales, well told” (Vol. 2, p. 263).
Second-rate, stale, predictable
“It is not possible to repeat this too often or too emphatically, for perhaps we err more in this respect than any other in bringing up children. We feed them upon the white ashes out of which the last spark of the fire of original thought has long since died. We give them second-rate story books, with stale phrases, stale situations, shreds of other people’s thoughts, stalest of stale sentiments. They complain that they know how the story will end! But that is not all; they know how every dreary page will unwind itself” (Vol. 3, p. 121).
Goody-goody story books or highly-spiced adventures of poor quality, titillating
“What manner of book will find its way with upheaving effect into the mind of an intelligent boy or girl? We need not ask what the girl or boy likes. She very often likes the twaddle of goody-goody story books, he likes condiments, highly-spiced tales of adventure. We are all capable of liking mental food of a poor quality and a titillating nature” (Vol. 3, p. 168).
Scrappy, weak, light reading
“Many who would not read even a brilliant novel of a certain type, sit down to read twaddle without scruple. Nothing is too scrappy, nothing is too weak to ‘pass the time!’ The ‘Scraps’ literature of railway bookstalls is symptomatic. We do not all read scraps, under whatever piquant title, but the locust-swarm of this class of literature points to the small reading power amongst us. The mischief begins in the nursery. No sooner can a child read at all than hosts of friendly people show their interest in him by a present of a ‘pretty book.’ A ‘pretty book’ is not necessarily a picture-book, but one in which the page is nicely broken up in talk or short paragraphs. Pretty books for the schoolroom age follow those for the nursery, and, nursery and schoolroom outgrown, we are ready for ‘Mudie’s’ lightest novels; the succession of ‘pretty books’ never fails us; we have no time for works of any intellectual fibre, and we have no more assimilating power than has the schoolgirl who feeds upon cheese-cakes” (Vol. 5, p. 214). |
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mackfam
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I would not classify Pratt as twaddle. It is simple, yes. It is not twaddle.
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Jen Mackintosh
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CrunchyMom
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I think LindaFay called it twaddle in the list group discussion when others recommended it in place of TCOO.
And I respect her recommendations and insights so much, I hate to seem to be critical or anything. It just makes me doubt myself!
So, yes, perhaps I need to revisit CM's definitions of twaddle? Are there quotes already pulled in a prior discussion? Because I agree that a hard book can be a good thing, but I can't really see that because a book is less hard that makes it twaddle. That's mind boggling to quantify 
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CrunchyMom
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Whoops. Cross-posting again.
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I have always thought that Catherine Levison's understanding of the Charlotte Mason method, as well as her communication of it, were outstanding. This is her article Defining Twaddle.
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Jen Mackintosh
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| I think LindaFay called it twaddle in the list group discussion when others recommended it in place of TCOO. |
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If that's the case, I think it is a mis-use (and perhaps inadvertently so) of the word "twaddle". Certainly, Pratt is simpler; it is not, however, twaddle. I use simple living books all the time on my schedule!
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AmandaV
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JennGM wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
This does not read like twaddle to me. It IS simpler and less complicated than TCOO with fewer details to retain, but it's hardly "Dick and Jane Discover America" either.
I've always really LIKED the fact that CM gives me the freedom to dismiss twaddle and be choosey. It is frustrating to think I cannot discern it as I'd like. |
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Going back to Amanda's OP question, are you saying that Pratt is Twaddle?
Let's define Twaddle, because while it's not a HARD book, I'd scarcely call that Twaddle! |
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I certainly don't think so, but I'll have to catch up on the other thoughts. We went to a mid-day All saints mass after discerning not to attend our local party/mass at a lovely mission an hour away, and just returned home.
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| Posted: Nov 01 2012 at 2:24pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
| No worries! I just meant that *I* didn't want to ask questions about it and discuss the particulars of that conversation because it's on a private list. I think it's fine that you mentioned the discussion because it has a context within the bigger question overall here, Amanda. You were perfectly general in all your comments while providing context in your initial post, Amanda, and I think it's fine as it stands! |
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Phew! Thanks!
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Amanda
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CrunchyMom wrote:
And I respect her recommendations and insights so much, I hate to seem to be critical or anything. It just makes me doubt myself!
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Exactly! That's just how I felt.
Its hard enough to decide on a spine/book/order, etc..
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Amanda
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AmandaV
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Mackfam wrote:
| I have always thought that Catherine Levison's understanding of the Charlotte Mason method, as well as her communication of it, were outstanding. This is her article Defining Twaddle. |
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This is helpful, as is your quoted list of twaddle quotes above. Thanks, Jen! I'm so glad I began this discussion, as its really helping me sort some things out in my head. :)
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I've been pondering further about this. Jen's quote here:
Mackfam wrote:
| There is a definite philosophy to a Charlotte Mason education and it hinges on three key areas: (1) atmosphere, (2) discipline, and (3) life. Now, no one is required to sign up for the full CM trifecta-shebang, but it does work. And beautifully. It's also quite rigorous, which I think is perhaps not so recognized. And since the article was written by a CM educator and with the goal of conveying the importance of hard books within a CM education, I'm going to speak to the idea within that context of a CM education. |
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has been a hinge on what I've been thinking. Caroline (Stellamaris) and I had some deep conversations regarding lesson planning, and how a daily lesson unfolds.
Caroline had summarized her notes from Ambleside here -- she is basically addressing the areas we were pondering over the Cm volume "School Education" before her visit.
What has stood out to me (and probably so obvious to everyone else) is that a book doesn't stand alone. There is cooperation and participation by the teacher. This was furthered by the video by Eve Anderson. There is quick review on what we've read, touching of vocabulary that will be covered in this reading, and then after reading and narration by the child, there are some questions.
To me that works and helps with the "hard" books. Miss Mason certainly didn't just throw the books at the child and tell them to soak it up best you can! Here enters the discipline on both sides, the parent/teacher and the child.
While hard for the younger years, I personally have been impressed by TCOO. I have never read such a broad stroke of American history, with details, but not overwhelming minutiae.
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kristinannie
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Can you remind me how to order the Eve Anderson DVD? I meant to do it and never got around to it.
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CrunchyMom
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You can order them here. If their online cart is still broken, you can call.
I agree, Jenn, that it is sort of a revelation to realize the teacher needs to prep so much. I have not managed that myself, and it is a lot to process!
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Lindsay
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AmandaV
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Ladies, I have a correction and apology to make. I mistakenly mis-represented Lindafay's post from her yahoo group, and after reviewing her words more closely I see that she clearly stated that she considers Pratt's books to be simple, useful for younger children, but not twaddle. I was reading several old posts and must have mixed things up. I am so sorry and regret this mistake and any confusion it caused. I usually check my words very carefully. I am happy to be able to clear it up so that there is no more confusion on the Pratt books. Please forgive me.
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Amanda
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Mackfam
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AmandaV wrote:
| after reviewing her words more closely I see that she clearly stated that she considers Pratt's books to be simple, useful for younger children, but not twaddle. |
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This is an important distinction, especially for those using or considering Pratt for their younger children, and does clear up confusion surrounding the Pratt books and Lindafay's thoughts on them.
I am so grateful to you for being honest and adding this correction here so that Lindafay's words are accurately represented on the thread, Amanada.
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Jen Mackintosh
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CrunchyMom
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Mackfam wrote:
AmandaV wrote:
| after reviewing her words more closely I see that she clearly stated that she considers Pratt's books to be simple, useful for younger children, but not twaddle. |
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This is an important distinction, especially for those using or considering Pratt for their younger children, and does clear up confusion surrounding the Pratt books and Lindafay's thoughts on them.
I am so grateful to you for being honest and adding this correction here so that Lindafay's words are accurately represented on the thread, Amanada. |
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Yes, thank you, Amanda! I have certainly had those moments where I misread or assimilate things mistakenly, and my emotional response immediately sends me to self-doubt, panic mode. I hope that now I'm not misrepresenting YOU, I'm just imagining how I could make the same mistake in a similar situation.  My own lack of education is sometimes a source of insecurity for me!
Phew! So glad to know that it isn't QUITE so hard to discern twaddle as I'd feared
At least it sparked a useful discussion 
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Lindsay
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: hard books
