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Mackfam
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This is a spinoff of the main thread discussing the individual sections of a series of Charlotte Mason videos done by Ambleside Schools International.
Introduction Videos
Part 1 - Persons or products?
Part 2 - How is the student growing?
Part 3 - What are we drawing the students to?
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Jen Mackintosh
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jawgee
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Such a great series so far!!
One thing that really caught my attention in the third part of the intro ("What are we drawing the students to?") was the idea that praise is not an ideal that the Ambleside School embraces.
I just recently read some of Michelle Duggar's books, and she emphasises praise very much - finding things her children are doing right and sharing your approval. She uses praise as a positive reinforcement in order to keep joy and positivity in her home.
As a modern-day American, the idea of praise seems deeply ingrained in me. When my oldest drew an especially good bird in his nature journal last week, I felt compelled to tell him how proud I was, how talented he was, and how I didn't know until that time that he had such a special gift for sketching.
I only use praise when I am genuinely pleased with something, but I don't want my children looking for my approval or to lose their sense of accomplishment and delight because they are yearning for my approval.
Anyway, this video made me think.
Is there a lot of praise in your home? How did you respond to this section of the video?
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Monica
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Claire F
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I still need to watch the videos (don't have time right now) but I did want to comment on the idea of praise.
Some time ago I read a great article on praising children (I sure wish I still had the link to it), and it talked about not praising ability, but effort. So instead of saying, "Good job, you are so smart!" one might say, "Good job, you worked very hard on that!"
The idea is that praising effort is praising something within the child's control. The child can choose to exert more or less effort, whether on their schoolwork or drawing a picture, etc. Praising ability is directing praise at something out of their control - they may feel they can't control whether or not they are smart, naturally. So the "you're so smart," is taken to mean, "you are made this way and there's nothing you can do to change it." Conversely, the "you worked hard on that," is taken to mean, "You did something to ensure you did a good job and could repeat that effort again."
Praising their effort leads them to believe they DID something to earn the praise.
Personally, I think there is probably room for both, depending on the child and the situation. But the idea of praising a child's effort more than their natural state resonated with me.
Just a few thoughts  .
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Claire
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CrunchyMom
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Like you, I don't praise unless I am genuinely impressed. I try to make honest statements about the work.
The video made me examine myself and seek to be even more measured in my praise. I do believe they are right in that it makes the child look to me rather than to their own sense of accomplishment.
I do think that finding joy in exploring ideas together and in working together are necessary in both family life and education, but in a way, my child needs to know they can find satisfaction in something independent of my approval, and that joy doesn't rely strictly on praise. Words of encouragement are not limited to praise, and too much praise would seem to border on flattery which would encourage vanity and not humility. True humility, though, is honesty about the good as well as the bad 
Jenn mentioned the similarities with Montesorri, and I think that perhaps this is a strength of the Montesorri activity's, oh what's that word? The fact that the child can always know whether he did something correctly independent of the teacher. Anyway, this would seem to reinforce the ability of the child to experience satisfaction in learning independently without reliance on a teacher's approval.
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Lindsay
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JennGM
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Yes, so similar to the Montessori thoughts. The child is pleased with his work.
"Good job" is so unnecessary, and it's like fingers on a chalk board when I hear it. I do find I give out praise too much, though. Have to work on it.
Alfie Kohn is the author that really delved into this thought of false or unnecessary and overdone praise. Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" is an article I have received from my Catechesis training.
The points to state your observation are very helpful, but it takes time to rethink and restate. Instead of saying "Great job" or even "I really like your painting" or "you paint well" it would be better to state observations -- "I see you painted a picture. What a colorful dinosaur."
I find I'm a product of praise myself, even though my parents didn't dish it out on a regular basis, I was looking for teachers' approval all the time. That was a big motivating factor. 
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Jennifer G. Miller
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hmbress
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Jenn, the link to the "Good Job" article isn't going to the right place ...
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Heather Rose (ds13, ds10)
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jawgee
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JennGM wrote:
| Alfie Kohn is the author that really delved into this thought of false or unnecessary and overdone praise. Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" is an article I have received from my Catechesis training. |
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I read quite a bit of Alfie Kohn when my oldest was a toddler, but somehow I just couldn't wrap my mind around it. Sometimes I do say "Good Job" when my toddler learns to carefully carry her cup so that it doesn't spill, or when my 6YO does his morning chores in fast order.
I don't want to create "praise junkies," of course, but I do want to share when I think they've done something good.
Hmmm....it just leaves me thinking....
(And let's be honest, sometimes I do say "good job" because I want them to repeat that behavior. Manipulation? That's what Alfie Kohn calls it. I call it positive reinforcement.  )
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Monica
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jawgee
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hmbress wrote:
| Jenn, the link to the "Good Job" article isn't going to the right place ... |
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Try here.
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Monica
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JennGM
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Thanks. I fixed the ones above.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Aagot
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Honestly, if praising my kids more (not a lot of that going on around here lately) would make my kids turn out as joyful, kind and content as the Duggar kids, I say to heck with the experts, I am going with the praise fest. 
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CrunchyMom
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JennGM wrote:
| I find I'm a product of praise myself, even though my parents didn't dish it out on a regular basis, I was looking for teachers' approval all the time. That was a big motivating factor. |
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Me, too. And I think that this is where his words would naturally ring the truest, in a classroom or instructional setting.
Certainly, this does not preclude my *thanking* my children for a job well done or delighting in their delight when they create something.
But, saying "I'm proud of you" when they get a math problem right would necessarily communicate "I'm not proud of you" when they get it wrong. I can affirm without this type of communication.
Again, I just loved the phrase "What you draw them with is what you draw them to." I am SO tempted to draw them to ME using my pleasure or displeasure as my chief tool Its so hard to remember that my goal, in some sense, is to create people who don't need me! 
And there are obviously things we do in life simply because we know it brings joy to others--and that is a GOOD thing. My response to something presented as a gift or act of service will ideally be different than my response to a lesson.
Love communicated it SO important, and perhaps the difference is subtle, but I would hope I could affirm them in my love without tempting them towards vanity, which would seem to be what fuels things done for the sake of praise.
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Lindsay
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JennGM
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| Certainly, this does not preclude my *thanking* my children for a job well done or delighting in their delight when they create something. |
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I do thank my children and my husband when they step up and do something outside of their duties and it helps me. That is courtesy, to thank a person, for their help. And I do so appreciate it anything to take off my workload.
And I have to admit when I've had a tough time getting response and prompt behavior for long periods of time, when I see a total change in behavior and immediate obedience, I do thank them and tell them I've noticed.
CrunchyMom wrote:
But, saying "I'm proud of you" when they get a math problem right would necessarily communicate "I'm not proud of you" when they get it wrong. I can affirm without this type of communication.
Again, I just loved the phrase "What you draw them with is what you draw them to." I am SO tempted to draw them to ME using my pleasure or displeasure as my chief tool Its so hard to remember that my goal, in some sense, is to create people who don't need me!
And there are obviously things we do in life simply because we know it brings joy to others--and that is a GOOD thing. My response to something presented as a gift or act of service will ideally be different than my response to a lesson.
Love communicated it SO important, and perhaps the difference is subtle, but I would hope I could affirm them in my love without tempting them towards vanity, which would seem to be what fuels things done for the sake of praise. |
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My husband and I have discussed how we never got money or rewards for good grades on our report cards. We were expected to do our best. I always thought it was strange when I heard about friends getting money for their report card. It seemed false and unnecessary. I only got in trouble when I had a poor grade in Conduct or Religion. There was no excuse there. If grades were lower in other subjects, there was discussion on the factors that caused this -- lack of attention, problems with understanding the teacher, etc. So neither rewards or punishment were doled out for report cards in either of our families.
What I expect from my son is application in his work. That's where I give him feedback -- "I can see you worked hard on writing your numbers/letters neatly" (a sore spot here).
I've been pondering this for a bit, and so much of this attitude of not constantly praising really is at the heart of the spiritual life and true love, isn't it?
In our spiritual development, we have to learn detachment. There are various levels of love. In the early stages the lover needs responses and feedback, and he/she does things because it makes the him/her feel happy.
The higher response is to do it out of my own sacrifice. The bonus is that sometimes it creates interior joy -- but even that, at a higher level, we are taught to not focus on feelings. Those good feelings are fleeting and just a gift. It's not the goal. That is why on the higher plain we are tested with dry spells, Dark Night of the Soul, to see what are our motives, and how do we love when it feels like there is no return.
As mentioned in the video (I can't remember which one), we are forming the child not for now, but for later. And this is the wisdom of this advice to be careful with hollow praise.
The focus is on our own work. So often when I've given an assignment or task, and there's finger pointing about what the other one isn't doing or naughtiness of the other. I have to remind them this fundamental fact that the focus has to be what were they told to do, and did they do it, not their brother's business. The image I keep in mind is going to Heaven and having our personal judgment. God is asking what YOU did, how YOU did it. He isn't going to ask about anything else -- whether people liked you or didn't like you, whether your brother made you do it, etc. So, in a smaller way, the detachment -- doing this on one's own without motivation from anyone else EXCEPT Love of God.
Back to the Alfie Kohn discussion. I think we discussed him here several times in the past. I think he does take things to the extreme sometimes, but he makes multiple valid points. If we examine how easy it is to say "Good Job!" -- it's almost dismissive. We don't have to think out anything. It's a knee jerk reaction.
Son: "Look at my painting, Mom!"
Mom: "Good job!"
Son: "I picked up my trash."
Mom: "Good job."
Mom: "Good job eating your dinner."
Mom: "Good job clearing your plate."
Mom: "Good job dressing yourself."
Mom: "Good job hanging up your coat."
And so on. It's all the same, and it's just a way to nod my head, say something, and move on with my business. But since it's so the same I don't think there's much motivation for child, either. Why is praise the same for every single thing he does?
And in today's society it's said about EVERYTHING, which results in the feeling of just ringing hollow. It's almost like the trophy given to every soccer player on the team. No one is a super winner, no one is a loser. Everyone is great. We rewatched The Incredibles the other night and so much of that movie makes that point -- why are we pushing for mediocrity? We does everyone need to be the same?
Just a long way to say, it takes a little more time, but if I can find a way to let the child give feedback ("I see you did your handwriting sheet. Are you pleased with it? What are your favorite letters? Where do you think you need to work on some letters?") or just compliment the work itself, like mentioned on the video ("I see you reread The Chronicles of Narnia on your own. That is a lot of reading. I remember reading that many times, too. What were your favorite books, characters?....")
I still am working this all out. One point that is repeated over and over again and needs to be hammered home every single moment is that my preparation is key. And that preparation is so multi-faceted (emotional, physical, and spiritual). I'm a work in progress, so I'll never be the perfect instructor until I reach heaven, but *I* have to work on myself. If I don't like something that is going on in my home, chances are the roots are in something *I'M* doing wrong.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Mackfam
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Thoughts that really inspired my imagination and pondering -->
We cannot play on natural desires to manipulate a child
I do so agree here! In our discussions here on praise, or words of affirmation, I think a look at our motivation can be a help in balancing. I would agree with Lindsay, that in a home setting, words of affirmation (which could be how a child gives and receives love; their love language) can be used in appropriate ways and I don't want to curtail that. I do see a common sense, even measured balance to offering praise when it comes to lessons, though I agree that there is satisfaction for the child in simply having done a good job. They are satisfied. Usually this plays out very naturally - a child adds something to their BOC, they're pleased with their illustration and bring it to me, I smile and say something like, "I'm so glad you chose to illustrate that event." I like to recognize good work, but not in an effusive way or an over-the-top way, simply a recognition of work well done. And not for every.little.thing either. I agree wholeheartedly with the video's assessment of the use of rewards, ribbons, tiny plastic baubles, or excessive praise when it comes to a child's work (lessons).
What we draw a child with we draw a child to.
This is a paramount thought, and one that is striking. If a child's motto is "I am, I can, I ought, I will," then a parent/teacher's motto could possibly be, "What we draw a child with we draw a child to." Draw a child with order, beauty, truth, goodness - allow it to permeate the everyday spaces of ideas and home, and we draw the child to those same lofty, noble ideals. I will spare you my thoughts on cartoony illustrations and decor, suffice to say, I could not agree more with Mr. Marschke St. Cyr.
I'm going to dig a little further into this idea (this wasn't on the video).
This "drawing to" is an invitation. That's a word I like to use a lot and I've heard Mr. Marschke St. Cyr use it a few times, too. It implies that, very much like in Montessori philosophy, we (as parent/teacher) are not the arbiter of all things knowledge, all things to be known, or the professor, but rather we function much like the directress in a Montessori classroom who presents and arranges materials, and even living ideas and books, and our plans to an extent, in pleasing and attractive ways (atmosphere). We demonstrate very quietly (so as not to get in the way) how to go about the work and then we "put them in the way". This atmosphere of presentation then becomes an invitation to learn, an invitation to feast at a banquet of rich ideas. We don't stuff the rich food down their throats - we arrange the banquet and put them in the way --> invitation - "drawing to".
Children are all created in the image of God, and they naturally gravitate toward beauty and order (and by order I mean order of presentation, order in attractiveness, order in nature, order in spaces....not necessarily that they are drawn to naturally ordering their own bedrooms or closets. ) They respond to invitations when ideas and materials are full of order and beauty, clarity and truth. And from this foundational, universal invitation and "drawing to" beauty, order, truth, goodness - they derive great satisfaction of knowing, understanding, pursuing, exploring. And it all happens within an atmosphere which invites. I like that thought. I hope I didn't go too far off the mark.
The importance of joy
I deeply appreciated Mr. Marschke St. Cyr's ability to distinguish between joy and happiness. Joy is supernatural, therefore it can live beyond the surface of what is happening. Thus, we can experience joy in the midst of suffering. And it is joy that is so important as part of the atmosphere of the home. I truly enjoyed the discourse on joy!
An atmosphere is not distracting but conducive and inviting
What I took from this Introductory set of videos was the foundational importance of atmosphere, living ideas and habits to a CM education. Remove any of those three variables and an education can't really be CM because it can't function as it should. It really is a stool which sits very securely on those three legs, but it doesn't work if one of those legs is missing. Or think of the heart and the lungs and the brain - they each function as part of a whole. If I followed that analogy I would think living books/ideas to be the brain, atmosphere would be the lungs, and habits would be the heart. When they all work together - LIFE! And isn't that what we're after in a CM education - a living education? Therefore we must work to ensure the health of those three parts so that the whole can be living.
Affections are profoundly shaped by community.
For our purposes, it is the community of the family, the domestic church that shapes the child. What an immense responsibility in conveying an atmosphere in our domestic church (home) that reflects the same clarity, truth, beauty, and order that Holy Mother Church gives us in her example. Ambiguity, self-service, confusing circular double-speak, muted shades of truth - these have no place in the atmosphere of the home. Mr. Marschke St. Cyr's explanation really crystalized that in a succinct way for me.
The atmosphere LEVERAGES how we will relate.
So true. Invest in the time spent coming alongside to nurture the formation of good habits and it is like a LEVER to the day. It props up, lifts, moves, motivates. The analogy of the lever is a wonderful one here. I really appreciated how he made a point of saying that unkindness is unacceptable in their schools. Don't you love it when you're sort of overwhelmed by all the habits you think you need to work on and form, and someone mentions one and you think, "!!!!, that covers so many!!!" I can put my energy right there and see it yield fruit in a number of other areas. This is just one example of the extraordinary efficiency I see in this method of education - it's all quite common sense, but applied, it is wholly efficient! Kindness, as a habit - I imagine that habit as a rail fully developed in our days; it now acts as a lever in the day. Attention as a habit acts as a lever in the day. And that's just two habits - but imagine the leverage from just those two habits!
Ok....that's it for my thoughts on the Intro! I'm really enjoying the series!
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Jen Mackintosh
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JennGM
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Mackfam wrote:
The importance of joy
I deeply appreciated Mr. Marschke St. Cyr's ability to distinguish between joy and happiness. Joy is supernatural, therefore it can live beyond the surface of what is happening. Thus, we can experience joy in the midst of suffering. And it is joy that is so important as part of the atmosphere of the home. I truly enjoyed the discourse on joy! |
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Jen, always your thoughts are amazing, so well-thought out and organized and well-written. I am just floored every time you hit reply.
The joy aspect really struck me, too. The talk on joy from the Family-Centered Conference a few years ago still echoes within me, and their points were exactly on target regarding joy.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Grace&Chaos
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Wonderful thoughts from everyone. The idea of praise has always been one I struggle with. This is not the type of home I grew up in so it is even hard for me to receive praise now. And while I don't overwhelm my children with it; I do try to give them affirmation.
Jenn, your discussion with dh about grades and rewards just kept me nodding. I don't think my parents ever even looked at my grades, especially my dad. I never understood why until a few years ago when my youngest brother was struggling in school and I thought I'd give some advice. I was shut down because my dad's thoughts are basically that you know what you need to do and it is your job to do it yourself. I little harsh and extreme IMO but that is the old school.
Then my dh home: very much the opposite of mine. There was an overabundance of praise and rewards...for everything. I love his family but yes, there is a differnece in how the outlook and performance has turned out.
I like to think that we have created a middle ground with the help of our faith and now with CM. I enjoyed the introduction because I find myself using my natural instincts, my dh influence and it is nice to know that the middle ground is possible.
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Mackfam
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JennGM wrote:
| What I expect from my son is application in his work. That's where I give him feedback -- "I can see you worked hard on writing your numbers/letters neatly" (a sore spot here). |
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I had a thought after reading your post and thinking on my own about this idea of praise, but wanting to recognize work....and it hit me that this too is another cross-over from Montessori:
OBSERVATION
I think what we're trying to get at is that we observe when a child has worked hard on penmanship, or we make an observation of the time spent illustrating or painting something. It is different from a praise-centered approach which may convey to a child that their motivation for doing a good job is our approval or praise.
I think you hit on something important to convey to our children here:
JennGM wrote:
| good feelings are fleeting and just a gift. It's not the goal. That is why on the higher plain we are tested with dry spells, Dark Night of the Soul, to see what are our motives, and how do we love when it feels like there is no return. |
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This is an excellent point, and I think it does underscore the importance that is found both in Montessori and CM of the satisfaction and esteem in the child's own knowing how to work, and working well. It is their own, they see for themselves that they have completed a thing, done a good job - it is borne out of knowing, not handed to them by our effusive praise.
JennGM wrote:
One point that is repeated over and over again and needs to be hammered home every single moment is that my preparation is key. And that preparation is so multi-faceted (emotional, physical, and spiritual). I'm a work in progress, so I'll never be the perfect instructor until I reach heaven, but *I* have to work on myself. If I don't like something that is going on in my home, chances are the roots are in something *I'M* doing wrong.
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I see myself more as a sacristan; I don't want to be an instructor. I find great joy in setting out the feast, in considering the beautiful, rich objects to present and I think the ideas and objects do the work for me. And though I recognize I must cultivate the habit of diligence here, I'm also grateful and trust that God will work with my own weakness. What a joy it is for me to enjoy the feast - both in the setting out and arranging as well as in coming alongside (which I do through narrations and the children's sharing) and enjoying the feast with the children.
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CrunchyMom
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Mackfam wrote:
JennGM wrote:
| good feelings are fleeting and just a gift. It's not the goal. That is why on the higher plain we are tested with dry spells, Dark Night of the Soul, to see what are our motives, and how do we love when it feels like there is no return. |
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This is an excellent point, and I think it does underscore the importance that is found both in Montessori and CM of the satisfaction and esteem in the child's own knowing how to work, and working well. It is their own, they see for themselves that they have completed a thing, done a good job - it is borne out of knowing, not handed to them by our effusive praise |
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It is amazing how all these ideas intertwine, because I can also see how this point emphasizes the need for habit so we aren't slaves to our emotion or lack thereof. Sort of the whole "fake it til you make it" approach. And this would be true for any dry spell be it spiritual or merely a case of "writer's block" or some other similar hurdle.
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Lindsay
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JennGM
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| Posted: Feb 15 2012 at 11:40am | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
I see myself more as a sacristan; I don't want to be an instructor. I find great joy in setting out the feast, in considering the beautiful, rich objects to present and I think the ideas and objects do the work for me. And though I recognize I must cultivate the habit of diligence here, I'm also grateful and trust that God will work with my own weakness. What a joy it is for me to enjoy the feast - both in the setting out and arranging as well as in coming alongside (which I do through narrations and the children's sharing) and enjoying the feast with the children. |
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Such a good point, and I like that word. Montessori uses directress and the Catechesis I'm a Catechist. Classical education uses Facilitator. What does CM use? Teacher and instructor does fall short, and thank you for pointing that out, Jen. Sometimes I slip into words that have improper usage.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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ekbell
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| Posted: Feb 15 2012 at 1:24pm | IP Logged
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Thinking abou lt the topic of praise I've realized that while I don't normally think of it as praise I do a fair amount.
There is affirmation or acknowledgment where I confirm that something was indeed done well. As I've known someone who just couldn't believe the generic 'Good job' (she thought that it was said to make her feel better about not being very good at something) I tend to specify what I think was well done.
And then there is appreciation or gratitude, "I really appreciate it when...", "Thank you for ...." or "I'm glad that ....". It is only right and proper to notice and thank my children(and husband) for the things they do for me.
I think that it's important that praise is given honestly and above all that praise should not be used as an tool for the manipulation of behaviour. Or in other words praise should be given without strings.
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keac
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| Posted: Feb 16 2012 at 3:28pm | IP Logged
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More about praise and drawing a child with and to something:
Thank you all for your thoughts on this; it is certainly adding to my fuller understanding!
Still working at distilling this concept, for myself, to get at all the nuances.
And so here's what I'm thinking about right now:
*Perhaps* the antithesis of the dangling of a carrot of praise or the censure of displeasure/disappointment---as a means to grow that self-education---is not indifference or the appearance of indifference...
(which I could see springing inadvertently from being so watchful of praise)...
but rather my joy; joy that comes, not from their accomplishment, per se, but that we now both share a new idea or acquaintance.
Kind of a mind to mind to mind meeting!
***I started this post earlier, than just now read all that's been since added to the conversation. Mackfam's "sharing of the feast" --- yes! That's it!!
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Karen in Kansas City
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Ambleside Schools Videos - Intro
