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ElizLeone
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So my oldest, a 15-year-old sophomore daughter, is giving us grief. I love her dearly, but she's stubborn and difficult and --I hate to say this, but-- she's just plain mean most of the time to her family members. She seems to take great pleasure in this, actually, and you wouldn't believe the things she says to me in front of the younger kids. I'll leave it at that, because I don't want to go on and on about the negatives, as she certainly does have some positives. (She is good, very good, for others outside our family, for example.)
We are doing Kolbe with a few modifications for high school. However, I'm seriously thinking about dropping the Kolbe Theology program for second semester of this year (it's Mass & the Sacraments - she's already well-versed in this), and going to an intense virtue or character -type program that she and I do together. She generally does most of her Kolbe work independently, and I feel like I need to carve out some time with her to work on character issues one-on-one. It's not pretty around here most days, and I feel like if I could reach her somehow with a motivating and encouraging virtue program, that would be worth gold.
I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas for books or resources. I don't care if it's a complete program (does one exist?) or just a la carte books to read and study together. The goal, of course, would be for her to come out of this study wanting to be a better person and more kind to her family. Please, God!
Does anyone have any ideas? My shelves are full of good Catholic books, but I'm wondering if anything just strikes any of you as perfect for this situation. (She's a high-level reader and could handle adult books easily, although I sure don't want the materials to be dry or boring, as that might be counter-productive in this situation.) I'm so hopeful that I can find something to improve her pretty toxic attitude.
Also, does anyone see a problem with doing this - swapping in a character-building program in place of Theology and getting high school religion credit for it? (I would just hope to lump it all together as her religion class, with first semester being straight-up Theology, while second semester is virtue study.) It's what she needs, and after years of doing Seton Religion, she knows her catechism and Mass/Sacraments study cold. So I don't feel she'd be missing out on anything.
Thoughts? I'm feeling chagrined airing dirty laundry regarding a challenging child. 
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Elizabeth in Wisconsin
7 kids, 1 little saint
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Aagot
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Hi Elizabeth,
Don't feel bad! I think there are many of us who share much or some of your trials. I do not have any book suggestions and would love to hear some. I do have two suggestions though. I don' t know how often you all go to confession, but I would start making it weekly ( not to focus on her but everyone) maybe a nightly family examin too ( silent answers only). The next may not be possible but I will throw it out there. Have you thought about a mission trip? Either some or all of the family, or even just your daughter, if you can find the right/safe environment. The reason I mention this is that there is nothing like focusing on other people's real, even extreme need, to pull us out of our selfishness and make us appreciate our families.
All of that is assuming that allergies, drugs and other medical/ chemical/ hormonal issues are not the culprit.
Best wishes,
Aagot
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Mackfam
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 Elizabeth!!
I think it is hard to be the oldest young lady in a large family. Much responsibility is handed to them on top of the challenges of growing into a young woman. I'm not condoning disrespect to Mom or discord in the family at all, but I can see some of the challenges she faces because my oldest (a 15 yo dd) faces some of the same challenges, and I remember facing them as the oldest in my family. I think many times the young lady just wants to feel heard, special, loved, appreciated for more than her babysitting services and wonderful abilities to help mom out with siblings in almost every situation. At least, that's how I felt, and I have found this approach with my daughter has really helped us connect in fruitful ways, ways that lessen resentment which is invariably directed toward siblings.
I have some ideas for you!
First, I think it's FINE to shift gears to a virtue course and have it qualify as high school religion credit!
I'm going to recommend a few resources, but if your daughter is somewhat bitter and resentful, using these resources could backfire (at least right now). If you detect significant resentment in her and a closed mind toward religion or a book on virtues already, I'll trust that you'll be able to cautiously discern the book's use.
Guide for Catholic Young Women by Rev George Deshon. This is one of my daughter's FAVORITE books which I recommend it so highly. She is reading through it slowly over the year and says that this is a book that will not go back on MY shelves, it will live on HER room shelves after she finishes this book for 10th grade religion/virtue reading! Now that is an endorsement! The book is well written and straightforward, which she says she appreciates. She says she also appreciates how practical the book is. I'm excited because I found a copy in the public domain for you to download/preview for free! Highly recommended for teen/high school young ladies!
Another way to connect with her on virtues is to listen to a few of Father Ripperger's sermons together. You may want to preview first to see if this is something that would work, but the content is fabulous and it could really spark some fruitful discussions between the two of you if you listen together.
Beyond this, my simple recommendation is to reconnect with her. Perhaps you two can read the book together and have a private mother/daughter book club meeting (going out for a mother/daughter morning time) discussing your thoughts.
At least once a month (if not twice) my older daughter and I go out together. We like to go to the thrift store together and then head somewhere special for coffee or hot chocolate. I connect with her about ideas and pursuits she is interested in, her passions. We keep it light for the most part, but I do try to bring up one or two deeper topics to talk about while we're alone. If I'm picking up on some building or growing resentment I do take that opportunity to talk with her about it. These conversations are most often very fruitful because she's not feeling defensive, we're speaking privately, and I work hard to convey my trust in her, my love of her, even as we speak candidly about behaviors which need improvement. I'm not struggling to maintain patience in the heat of 8 issues at once, so I'm better able to be sincerely seeking in asking the WHY questions..."why do you resent so-and-so?"...."why have you been so disrespectful toward me?"..."can you talk to me a little about how you're feeling at home?"...."do you feel taken advantage of?"..."are you overwhelmed by the activity?"...."are you upset about something?" These conversations can be so fruitful in terms of me being able to understand so I can be prayerful and take actions if needed, and my daughter feels understood, cared for, loved. Win-Win!!
I'm wondering if this kind of special time, with no pressure, would allow your dd to soften a bit, to feel your sincere love for her, and give her opportunities to talk with you.
Another book idea I had was to consider reading some literature together for your mother/daughter book chats: Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, the Emily Books by Lucy Maud Montgomery (3 in the series), and others. These aren't so "in-your-face-you-need-virtues" in terms of a book choice (and only you will be able to judge if she'll receive a book like Guide for Catholic Young Women in that way). But they can provide some very rich discussion in terms of virtue and the behavior of young women.
Hoping something here is of use for you, Elizabeth! I'm praying!!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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ElizLeone
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I'm all teary-eyed, just reading all your wonderful advice, Aagot and Jen. It's been a rough year or two and even rougher in the last month or so. I am so appreciate for all the good advice, and I will take it to heart!
Aagot, you are so right to remind me of PRIORITIES! Confession... so important. We go religiously once a month. But it's rarely more than once a month, so that's an area where I have great room for improvement! Thank you for the wonderful reminder. I would also like to get to daily Mass more often. For us, that will likely mean 7:00 am Mass -- plenty early for this family of nine. But it would be so good... I will try! Confession and Mass. And I want to get to Adoration with her, just the two of us. That's not really something we do together, and certainly it would be very fruitful. You are reminding me of all that, Aagot. Thank you. As for mission trips, I had actually looked into a Marytown teen retreat in Illinois for this summer. Does anyone know anything about that? A friend of hers is going and has good things to say about it. I believe there is a service component, although I'm not sure if it's a "mission" per se. I will look around.
Jen, you are so right about the two of us needing to connect. When we take walks together or go shopping together, we connect in a very special way that just doesn't happen around here in the chaos of life with nine family members. And we do not do this nearly often enough. I have to make it a priority! (But that means I need to also make time to do it alone with my 13-year-old daughter, because she needs it too, even though her personality is more easy-going.) You're right that I just need to make the time to do this, because private time is the only time that she's going to soften and open up to me. I need to build that in.
I am off to check out your book recommendations, Jen. Thank you so much for your time on this -- for finding a public domain copy of the Guide for Catholic Women even! You are awesome! And the sermons sound intriguing. You know what I'm going to be checking out tonight!
This gives me such good info and such a great head-start, Ladies. I'm actually getting excited. I will take these positive steps and I pray that we'll have some a more positive attitude on the other side.
Bless you both for helping me so much already. I'm off to look into your resources, and we'll definitely aim for more frequent Confession and Communion and mother-daughter time. God bless you both!
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Elizabeth in Wisconsin
7 kids, 1 little saint
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JodieLyn
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Jen that copy you found online is wonderful.. it has lots of formats to download so that I could download to the kindle.
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Mackfam
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ElizLeone wrote:
| When we take walks together or go shopping together, we connect in a very special way that just doesn't happen around here in the chaos of life with nine family members. And we do not do this nearly often enough. I have to make it a priority! |
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I just wanted to encourage you on this front and say that these special trips out don't have to be anything complicated, or fluffy, or super planned, nor do they have to take you far from home or daily duties! Which is why I think they work so well! Go grocery shopping together and just stop at McD's for ice cream from the dollar menu....or have her run errands with you on a Saturday morning and combine it with a stop for a smoothie...or plan to go on a nature walk/hike on a local trail - just the two of you and pack hot chocolate! Just little treats, really inexpensive ones, that encourage sitting down and talking together. I mean, there's no problem with doing something REALLY special with your oldest, but sometimes between family life and family budget that becomes overwhelming just to think about. I like just letting them happen naturally, and they do! Opportunities come up and I smile because I didn't plan it, don't have to do much for it, and it has sort of fallen in our laps. But for regular "special trips"...just keep them really simple. The simpler they are, the more likely they are to happen!
ElizLeone wrote:
| (But that means I need to also make time to do it alone with my 13-year-old daughter, because she needs it too, even though her personality is more easy-going.) |
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Yes, you definitely will...because the more easy-going they are, the more they just tend to swallow a lot of their feelings for family peace, and they REALLY need you to take the time to sit down with them and talk to them. Otherwise, they rarely have chances to open up in life with a busy family.
Take a look at your errand schedule and see if you can't work them both in somehow. as you prayerfully consider your approach, Elizabeth! Your great love for your daughters is so touching and inspiring!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Grace&Chaos
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My oldest just turned 12 yesterday, but she is a very mature older soul for her age. We realized very early on that she does have typical oldest child duties that sometimes just don't seem fair. We've tried to do some of the things mentioned like spending one on one time and this is wonderful.
She is a bookworm and very sedintary so one thing we started doing is having her go with me on a weekly run. It gives her a chance for real excercise and I've noticed her mood improves after a nice workout. Lately, she's asked to do my walking video on days we can't go out on a run. This is still one on one time because everyone else see's that go on and they run for their rooms  . Because she is still pretty young going out one on one with dad is still o.k. for her  , so dh will do the same and take her out for an occasional challening bike ride.
In case you're interested in another title: she's currently reading Karen Andreola's revised Beautiful Girlhood and there are always some nice topics to talk about.
I know she several years younger than your dd but I just thought you might consider a physical activitiy as part of those outings as well.
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Jenny
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leanne maree
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Elizabeth,
Thank you so much for your honesty. It isn't easy explaining and writing about a difficult time in words. for others to underatand.
I have 3 older children, and by and large we did the best we could given the limited resources and knowledge we had at the time. They are were educated in the local Catholic sytem, apart from 3 years were 2 homeschooled.
So by saying this, I see a huge difference in our youngest dd 13-14. I wanted much more for this young one.
Firstly we spend time together either chatting over books or coffee/ milkshake.
We have also used Truth for Teens- CHC, Fashioned by Faith-Rachel lee Carter, and Beautiful Girlhood. We have a group of young teens who all support each other.
These books in particular have been great to discuss growing up issues and emotional issues, she maybe going through and why.
The Fashioned by Faith was certainly an eye opener foe her.
We also pull her into line if we see her disrespecting us as a couple. It has been really important for us, as a couple, to be on the same page and be aware of and support each other in the family dynamics.
I am away from home atm, so I can't access my bookshelf to look at other options.
I Pray you come through it all stronger.
God Bless
Leanne
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Leanne
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ElizLeone
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Thank you, everyone! I'm sorry I've been slow to respond. Busy days! (I'm trying to organize my daughter's work samples and grades for Kolbe thus far this year. I'll know better from now on than to get behind!
Jen, you are so right to remind me that it is the little things that count sometimes. These "outings" or special times can be just doing the little things. I will absolutely keep that in mind! And, yes, my second oldest, easy-going as she is, gets lost in the shuffle sometimes. She's just easy and quiet and doesn't ask for much. I need to consciously remember that she needs that one-on-one too. (Oh, to find more hours in the day! :)
Jenny and Leanne, we own Beautiful Girlhood, and it's sitting on my shelf collecting dust. I've just never made time to put it to use! You can be sure I'll be pulling it out after your recommendation. Thank you for remind me.
Thank you, Jenny, for the good reminder about physical activity. I agree! And running together is great... She runs cross-country in the summer/fall, and I need to get back to running myself. So this would be a good thing! Also, Jenny, thanks to you, I just bought Truth for Teens. It should arrive in a couple days. And Fashioned by Faith is in my Amazon shopping cart.
Thank you one and all! I am implementing all your suggestions, and I see great hope. I really do!
Most of all, thank you, everyone, for the prayers! Amazingly, the last two days have been much better, so your prayers are absolutely helping. I love this forum and all of you moms.
Elizabeth
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Elizabeth in Wisconsin
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leanne maree
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This area is such an area we need to home in on, I think more than lots of other areas. It there formation and at this precious time in there lives its vital we connect with our teens.
Mum n daughter time is such a great gift.
I am still trying to reconnect with my eldest dd23, but I think time, maturity and lots of love will be the key.
But for our youngest 13dd, we have connected and we can share on all types of issues in our life.
So I am pleased that you posted on this thread.
God Bless
Leanne
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Leanne
Loving wife to Dermot and Adoring mother to Louise, Kristie, Kieran & Brid
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amarytbc
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One of my older daughters was like that during her middle teen years. It sounds like your dd has a rebellious nature and sometimes that is directed at the parent and family when the teen feels they have very little control of what is going on in their life. She needs something to rebel against other than you, something she can devote her time and attention to, something like 40 Days for Life which will start in a few weeks. They always need people praying at the centers and coordinating different things. I'm sending you a pm with a link that might be helpful too.
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CatholicMommy
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My first thought was Beautiful Girlhood (I see that suggested above ).
My second thought - and this might seem light, but it might be worth at least looking INTO to glean ideas: my son and I just started the Life Lessons from the Squire and the Scroll --- and I know that all started because the one for the The Princess and the Kiss was so great. I've not seen it, that's just what I've heard 
Just a thought :)
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sunshinyliving
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I came across a recent article that might be a good discussion piece for our teen girls as it deals with some of these issues. Written by a Catholic man, the article talks about being "pretty" rather than "hot".
(When I print it off, I think I'll leave off the last couple of paragraphs, though. I think a teenage girl might be discouraged by them.)
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/the-death-of-pretty
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ElizLeone
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Oh, I love this article! I've sent this on to several people today. Thanks for posting this, Diana Joy!
Thanks again, everyone, for all your great help!
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Elizabeth in Wisconsin
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Angie Mc
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Elizabeth, I've been praying for you since reading your OP. I have dealt with stubborn, difficult, and mean. It's hard. My dd is now 19. It gets better. It started with me accepting, really accepting, who she really was and who she was becoming. She simply wasn't a naturally sweet, compliant, or perfect girl. She was a strong-willed, intense, and at times passive-aggressive teen. Somehow, we needed to figure out how to help her to manage her tendencies and be responsible for her choices.
In addition to all the great ideas already given, I highly encourage you to pick your battles carefully. Being honest here, my dd would have scoffed at anything that smacked of an overt virtue curriculum. What's interesting about this is that she would have scoffed for some good reasons. She found many teen material and activities to be dumbed-down and unreal. Still does. Receiving the sacraments is our duty and privilege but I was careful to never use them as tools to improve her behavior. We've witnessed well intended mothers dragging their teens to weekly confession or daily mass with terrible results. Same goes with forcing teens to do service work. We often talked about what we thought was working or not working with other teens and their families (privately and with prayers and empathy, of course.) What works for some teens and their families simply doesn't work for others.
All the things that worked well for us (and it was hit or miss for awhile) were relationship based with the idea in mind that I was her mentor and cheerleader into adult life. I was not her enemy, dictator, or conscience. It was hard for me to step out of my mom of a little kid role into this new one.
She loved movies and romance. It actually pained me to sit and *only* watch a movie with her because my to-do list was waiting, I'm not a big movie fan, and I'm all about non-fiction . But when I did (and I eventually grew to cherish this time together) I could see her fill up with love. Conversations naturally flowed - or didn't - but she was in the driver's seat.
I said yes to her being with friends...even when her room was messy, even when her schoolwork wasn't done, even when... She needed to have "free time" that she could count on to build these friendships, many which continue strong to this day.
I bought her nice clothes (even when money was tight.) I even needed to agree to disagree about some clothing choices. It was worth the extra money and thrift store shopping to ensure that she felt like she looked good.
She baked. And baked. And baked. It made her happy (still does.) I honestly didn't like the mess, didn't like the temptation of so many treats (which we would often give away), and didn't like the time going to baking rather than (fill in the blank) but in the end, it mattered to her...filled a need in a positive way.
One of the battles I did pick was to call her on all mean, disgusted, or impatient behaviors directed at me or her younger siblings. I would quickly and as detached as possible ask questions like, "Are you trying to make me angry?" "Are you trying to get out of doing this work?" Or I would make a statement that acknowledged her feelings while pointing back to what needed to be done, "I can see that you're frustrated. How do you think we can get this work finished?" Or my catch all was, "How is this behavior kind and loving?" (Now she teases me and asks me the same question  .) Back-talk was not allowed - 0 tolerance. If she talked back, I would say, "That's back talk, you need to rephrase." If she didn't or couldn't or wouldn't, I would call Dad and she would wait until he could talk with her. I would continue with my work. This disengagement was hard for me.
Writing this makes it look all easy and like I was calm & collected during the time. Not so. I'm a hot head by nature so these years really brought me to my knees. Praise God she is doing very well. She has put her stubbornness, strong-will, and "meanness" to good use . She is now a lovely example of Catholic womanhood (especially to those who aren't Catholic) as well as a tenacious, realist, hard-working journalist student who is happy directing her own life.
You are a great mom, Elizabeth, and your dd sounds like someone who I would enjoy being with very much. Together, you make a perfect team and with God's perfect timing and grace, all is in His hands . Praying!
Love,
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Angie Mc
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Mary Chris
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Anyone else wish they lived next door to Angie????
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Jan 19 2012 at 11:23am | IP Logged
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Mary Chris wrote:
Anyone else wish they lived next door to Angie????
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Oh my, Mary Chris! I burst into tears reading this  <--happy, grateful tears!!! And OH OH OH how I wish we could all live next door to each other! But then again, maybe God knew what He was doing when He separated us...we might have a little too much fun . It really was a very stressful time for us and it is a relief to be moving into different (and once again uncharted) territory.
Do you all think moving the first child into adulthood being a new experience for all involved is one of the things that exasperates the situation?
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Carole N.
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How I wish I came out here more often and looked at what is posted! Elizabeth and Angie, I am going through the same trauma now except it is my youngest child and my only daughter. She is strong-willed, stubborn, and mean to me (at times). At 16, she has lost much of her Catholic girlhood and become very wise to the world. She thinks she knows everything and having a discussion with her is frequently impossible.
My dh is not always supportive as he is only home in the evening and has not been fighting the battle all day long. He does catch glimpses of it on weekends, so he recognizes how hard it is for me.
And I am not saying that we don't have good days because we do. But there are days when I wish that my teens were gone. I am just so worn out. And part of this is complicated by clinical depression that has been passed down through my side of the family. I never know from day to day what her mood may be or what threats she may make.
I know that God has a plan, so I pray a lot to know what he wants me to do. And I struggle with some of the situations that have arisen in our home. I am sorry to whine so much, but this has been a very lonely and isolated life for me. I keep hoping that I will come out on the other end, but then a new situation presents itself.
Okay, enough whining. Thanks for letting me vent. Any advice is greatly appreciated!
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stefoodie
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wow, it's been a while. my daughter went through this around 17 -- she's now 20 and back to being all kinds of awesome. some of the things I remember doing that helped us:
- have like-minded families to hang around with
- have like-minded friends for her to hang around with (for us this meant good, conservative, faithful girls, mostly homeschoolers -- this balanced out the other, more worldly friends she had)
- gift her with books, music and videos that inspire and delight (for us this was Austen, Gaskell, Lewis; gospel like Matt Maher; BBC Masterpiece *and* --- may be unique to my daughter -- martial arts movies)
- go on shopping dates, not just with mom, but sometimes with dad too (helped her to see what a guy likes seeing on a girl and helped her make better choices, e.g., don't wear black all the time, wear some bright color like red -- good clothes = tight enough to show femininity but loose enough to maintain decency, for example)
- let her go on group dates to concerts, movies, restaurants (preferably chaperoned by a parent or a sibling or another trusted adult, but if not, lay ground rules, curfew, etc. -- we also limited which friends she could do this with, based on how well we knew them/whether we approved of the friendship or not. she wasn't happy with all of our conditions but for the most part she kept to her end of the bargain.)
- keep her plugged in to Church -- let her serve in whatever capacity she wants to serve, even if in the beginning her reasons may be seen as shallow (to spend time with friends, let's say, not really to serve Christ)
- give her LOTS of space (this was the hardest)
- communicate via other ways -- when talking face to face got to be difficult because we would descend into screaming matches, there was e-mail, facebook, handwritten notes, etc. just find a way to keep that channel open, it meant i could still send her links every now and then to articles i thought she should read, and she was more receptive to that than to me telling her things in "yet another lecture". one particularly difficult afternoon, i took a notebook and wrote a bunch of questions on it, gave it to her to answer in her own time. she returned it several hours later with paragraphs upon paragraphs of her thoughts. we didn't talk about it afterwards, but recently, ~3 years later, i showed her the notebook and she was laughing at how ridiculous and selfish she was
- purposely keeping conversation light -- choose topics that aren't contentious. i found that the less i tried to draw her out the more she opened up to me naturally. when i tried too hard she would clam up even more.
at any rate, praying for all you ladies going through this right now, and your sweet daughters. this too shall pass.
__________________
stef
mom to five
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ElizLeone
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Joined: Jan 09 2006
Location: Wisconsin
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Posts: 214
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| Posted: Jan 31 2012 at 10:12pm | IP Logged
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Oh, you are all so good and kind and generous with your time. I'm sorry I haven't been back here sooner to say my proper thank you's for all the great advice and the consolation that it doesn't only happen in our house.
Picking battles... yes! I never liked the sound of this concept, but it's something that I'm finding I have to do. I also have to let her have some space and pursue her passions. (She likes baking also! )
Carole, let's pray for one another and our daughters! Stef and Angie, you've given me SO much more to think about. I am going to be coming back to this page regularly, just to re-read all this wisdom from all of you.
I've seen some improvement in the last week or two, with a step or two in the wrong direction here or there. But I think we might be getting into a better, more pleasant rhythm. She has soooo much good inside her. I just need to tap into that and hope that her family will eventually be the beneficiaries of all that.
Again, thank you from the bottom of my heart to all of you. You are all gems.
__________________
Elizabeth in Wisconsin
7 kids, 1 little saint
Munchkins on the Path
Our Adoption
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Suggestions for h.s. virtue "curriculum"?
