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lapazfarm
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Another thought on product.
Sometimes I find that the promise or idea of a product might be the impetus dc needs to do some self-directed learning. In fact, this is what usually inspires ME to learn. I want a garden and lots of yummy vegetables, therefore I am inspired to read, research, and learn all I can about gardening. No one has to make me do it.
Dc have things they want to make and do and so this inspires their learning. If ds wants to make a bow and arrow that actually works, rather than a little toy thing that wouldn't shoot ten feet, then he needs to research just how to do it. Although it could be done by trial and error, he is bright enough to realize that the work has been done for him and it is easy enough to look up. He will do it if he really wants that product.
Now, this could be applied to the video gaming that some dc do. If they want to advance in some games, research, planning and strategizing are required. They will do it if they want that success. Is this a "product"? No, not really, but could be thought of in the same way. Or perhaps it is one of those "intangibles" and is a product, after all.
Not being a Charlotte Mason expert in the least, I wonder how exactly does this idea of the product inspiring learning, or product planting the seed, fit in to her philosophy?
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Willa
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lapazfarm wrote:
| This is still the thing that gets me most. I can fully relate that many products (or most) could and perhaps should be intangible. But there is also a lot of value in products which are tangible. I'm not talking even about mom-assigned products, but even child initiated ones. |
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I agree and I would imagine we all do. I think products are important and one reason for my worries about desultoriness is because there are these product-less times in our lives.
But we are doing some discussion about "products" that are intangible because we are trying to figure out a way to acknowledge what goes on under the surface, that sometimes results right away in a product, but sometimes doesn't. Right? Like some underground lava explodes out of a volcano and some may just tremor the ground a bit, some oozes out and travels for miles on the surface and some travels underground and emerges miles away. Sorry, got carried away by that one.
I liked Richelle's example of her novel. The same sort of thing has happened to both my son and my daughter with their novels. (In fact, one reason my son is feeling a bit negative and desultory right now is that his novel was such a consuming interest for so long.... now he's revising it, which doesn't absorb him as much, and so he hasn't found anything to fill the gap).
Another example to compare with my lava analogy is how sometimes I have an experience or a thought that doesn't really go far at the time, but grows and deepens under the surface, and just flowers unexpectedly all of a sudden. Some things I wrote before Aidan was born seem almost eerily precognitive now in light of what has happened since. But they were seeds at the time. Further experience made them grow and bear fruit. Otherwise, they might have remained silent, germinating under the surface, or shown up in a different way.
This, I see, may go back to what Cindy was saying about providing a rich soil, lots of environmental richness. A rich life will let PLENTY of seeds sprout, as many as we can take and use in our lives. We don't need that many. CM says that for some people, one or two BIG ideas is enough for a lifetime of the noblest labor.
I think CM's ideas about narrating immediately are good; she's right that telling something consolidates it. YET..... I've found that if I force the wrong kind of narration too soon, it backfires. My kids remember all right.... they remember their aversive, abbreviated version and not the real thing. For us, sometimes indirect is best.... if something has sunk in, it will come out.... like the time I thought my daughter was bored by a study we did on Thomas a Becket, then 4 years later she told me she almost chose him for her confirmation patron.
I think projects and narrations are fine, and good, but sometimes I have to remember they're not exactly "products" but rather, possible further steps of the "process." I see that with my kids the product is in the end the type of person they are becoming.
Your firemaking experiment was product AND further process. It put into action something that was previously theoretical and passively understand. Yes, that is valuable.
But at the same time there may be a kind of a silent narration or silent project going on while nothing much shows up on the surface. That used to happen all the time to me when I was younger. There's also what CM talks about ---learning by analogy of type. A child who has seen a stream can partly envision a river. Your struggle with primitive fire-making tools gave you an analogic understanding of how difficult it was to live pitted against a non-user-friendly environment. That "seed" itself may bear fruit in your child's growth in many different ways.
I do not know if this is making sense! perhaps I'm making unnecessary distinctions. I'm struggling to put into words some things at the back of my mind.
I read recently that education was what remains when you've forgotten what you learned at school. It seems to have some truth in that WHAT you are taught is less important in your life than the lessons you are taught by HOW you are taught and how you learn. So that's partly what I am reflecting on. WHAT do I want my kids to end up with, to remember, when the details are misty or irrelevant?
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Willa
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tovlo4801
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Theresa,
I think you are right about a deeper understanding coming from hands on. I do think there is some difference in what different temperments need. I read a book this fall called People Types and Tiger Stripes
I would highly recommend it for looking at what types of learning work best for different personality types. It sounds like you and perhaps your children are more hands-on type learners. There are wonderful examples of more intuitive types experience with hands-on learning vs. book learning (frustration) and more sensory types experience with book learning vs. hands-on learning (similar frustration  ). It was a good read.
It comes from a school setting perspective, but there are wonderful examples and explanations as well as easily copied charts that list out how different types learn best. A good place to get some perspective anyway.
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Leonie
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lapazfarm wrote:
| . Mentioning a topic in passing, perhaps something you are reading or enjoying is like gently covering the seeds with soil-a little more effort in hopes of a better germination rate. Strewing to the brain through conversation/discussion is like directly planting of the seed deep into the bed-the most effort for hopefully guaranteed results. |
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This "strewing to the brain"  - can this be achieved by set or required work? A reading of a set book, as in CM's plans, or completion of a required maths page?
Can't these things spark further ideas and interests and education with application?
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lapazfarm
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I agree wholeheartedly that this works differently for different personality types. I have 5 dc myself and none of them are alike! Plus taught public school long enough to see that there are so many ways of learning-no magic bullet that works for everyone, unfortunately. My focus is on a more hands-on approach right now because both the dc I am schooling now seem to like it that way. Older dd, though is nothing like that-has to read and discuss and process everything verbally. So I've seen both sides as well.
Willa, I can so relate to your lava analogy. All that bubbling under the surface.
So, after all is said and done, what Do we want our dc to remember, and how do we know we are on the right track getting there? Is all this concern about product and process and intangibles, etc really about assessment? I'm beginning to think that for me it may be. If I just had that little key to unlock and open up ds brain and peer in...
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tovlo4801
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lapazfarm wrote:
| So, after all is said and done, what Do we want our dc to remember, and how do we know we are on the right track getting there? Is all this concern about product and process and intangibles, etc really about assessment? I'm beginning to think that for me it may be. |
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Sure is what it sounds like to me now that you phrase it that way. :)
lapazfarm wrote:
| If I just had that little key to unlock and open up ds brain and peer in... |
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And the conversation turns to relationship. A little dim, but probably the best way to get that brain peering done, huh?
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lapazfarm
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Leonie wrote:
This "strewing to the brain" - can this be achieved by set or required work? A reading of a set book, as in CM's plans, or completion of a required maths page?
Can't these things spark further ideas and interests and education with application? |
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Leonie,
I think they certainly can. If not, then we would have to conclude that traditional schoolers are entirely uninspired, which is certainly unfair.
I can see in our experience where a required task often inspires further independant thought and interest. As homeschoolers I think the relationship is key to this success. We tend to know our kids very well and when we assign readings, math, whatever, it tends to be highly suited to their temperaments and interests. We get a pretty high success rate with assigned tasks, then. At least I tend to have good luck with it. When I choose to assign a book to read, for instance, it often ends up amongst his favorites. This is only because of the close relationship we have. I have a feeling most of us enjoy that close relationship with our dc. Isn't that largely why we are homeschooling in the first place? 
This in fact, may be why I am having such a hard time letting go of the assignments to completely unschool. We have had great luck with assignments! Like Willa, we have had a wonderful year and I consider it a huge success. I am just really looking to tweak a bit to make it even better. And since we are about halfway down the road to unschooling anyway, I thought I'd scout out a little further down that road and see if it might do the trick. So far it looks good. So maybe I will move down the road a bit from assignments to "strong suggestions?" 
Lots to ponder.
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
lapazfarm wrote:
| Is all this concern about product and process and intangibles, etc really about assessment? I'm beginning to think that for me it may be. |
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Sure is what it sounds like to me now that you phrase it that way. :)
lapazfarm wrote:
| If I just had that little key to unlock and open up ds brain and peer in... |
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And the conversation turns to relationship. A little dim, but probably the best way to get that brain peering done, huh? |
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Hmm, that makes me think. Assessment, yes.... but actually, for me -- SELF-assessment. What am I doing? Trying to educate my kids. How can I know I'm doing the best job I can do? Well, partly, seeing the fruits, so I can self-correct and adjust. So yes, the assessment is important but for ME,... not so much for them.
But also, I think there is some benefit in "results" for the child himself. A child producing something will tend to reinforce and recognize his own learning, and self-correct, as well.
Yes, relationship.... that is key in more ways than one key to the brain and key to the process of education. Now one thing I realize for me is that relationship takes place in a context..... a context of doing, talking, or whatever. How can I translate this over into energizing our learning relationship??? not sure about that right now.
But even without the answer to that I've gotten so many things to go on during this conversation. I am going to test them out and go from there.
Leonie, you mentioned assigned work. It is the most convenient and direct way to influence childrens' learning, certainly. When does it become TOO much? Different for every child, I'm sure. But how can we tell it's too much for that particular child? Some of the kids who like direction most may be the ones who aren't growing from it, and some of the ones resisting it may really need it, perhaps? Just some questions I have had.....
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Cindy
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lapazfarm wrote:
When I choose to assign a book to read, for instance, it often ends up amongst his favorites. This is only because of the close relationship we have. I have a feeling most of us enjoy that close relationship with our dc. Isn't that largely why we are homeschooling in the first place?
This in fact, may be why I am having such a hard time letting go of the assignments to completely unschool. We have had great luck with assignments!. |
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Theresa,
I think you have hit on a very important idea here- I found my assignment 'hit rate' (borrowed term from my salesman dh) went way up when I was more careful about choosing the material and read it myself, or get it from very reliable sources.
And when I thought about my sons, each one, and what they like. Plus when I quit bringing the other stuff in, they trusted me more and were so much more open to my ideas.
Goodness.. if it is working for your family.. keep doing it! *That* is what this is all about!
I would have no problem also suggesting things besides reading, if that worked as well with my boys. I have just had lots more resistance to that. But maybe it is time to test the waters again...?
I think the key is relationship. I find they *know* when I am trying to get them to do something that I think is good for them vs. when I find something exciting I really want to share.
In the last year or so I have come to the conclusion that I really don't need to ask them to do anything beyond the really good stuff.
Could this be as simple as knowing our kids, trying new ways to connect... assigning if that works, strewing if that works... The litmus test being when the schedule or list of to-dos begins to take over?
Where do we cross that line?
And if we do now and then, just re-group and re-look?
Sorry if this is disjointed, I have had little time for computer and have been reading fast. I'll try and catch up more before I post again..
Very good conversation- like Willa I have some new ideas to think about. Maybe some projects would be fun to try again....
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Cindy
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This quote is from The Man Who Listens to Horses by Monty Williams. (the real horse whisperer) I thought it applied here somehow... the idea that you have to learn, cannot be 'taught'- and he is referencing that the student must pull the knowledge into the brain.
I wonder where the planting of ideas would fall into the picture?
(I loved the idea that is favorite teacher was a nun!)
"Between the rodeos and the show grounds and the horsemastership contests, and all the traveling on the railroad car, I did manage to fit in a little time at school, but my attendance record was slim. It consisted mostly of turning up on examination days to prove that I was up to standard. I was, though, registered with the local Catholic school administered by Notre Dame nuns. One nun, Sister Agnes Patricia was the most influential teacher I ever know. What I will always remember about her is her statement that there is no such thing as teaching---only learning. She believed that no teacher could ever teach anyone anything. Her task as a teacher was to create an environment in which the student can learn.
Knowledge, she told us. standing very straight in her long black habit, her face framed by her white wimple, pointed at the top like the spire of a cathedral, needs to be pulled into the brain by the student, not pushed into it by the teacher. Knowledge is not be forced on anyone. The brain has to be receptive malleable, and most important hungry for that knowledge."
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lapazfarm
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I like that quote. Here is how I think planting falls into that picture.
I think you could look at her idea of "creating an environment" for learning as preparing a fertile bed. That way ANY seed that falls on it, whether planted by a loving mother/teacher or by the child hisself in his own explorations, will have a chance to grow and bear fruit.
I think what unschoolers (and most homeschoolers, really) try to do is prepare that fertile bed by providing an atmosphere of learning and offering many opportunities for exploration and lots of support and encouragement. And by modeling lifelong learning ourselves.
But where radical unschooling I think sometimes misses the mark is by insisting that all the seeds be planted solely by the child. Since none of us seem to be radical unschoolers, we can see the benefits of planting some seeds ourselves, based on our experiences and knowledge of our children.
The nun in the story is right that we cannot force learning. That indeed is up to the child. But we can plant and we can nurture and we can hope.
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Willa
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Cindy wrote:
She believed that no teacher could ever teach anyone anything. Her task as a teacher was to create an environment in which the student can learn.
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I think one of Elizabeth's talks has a quote by Bl Edith Stein to similar effect... I'll have to see if I can dig it up.
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Willa
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Cindy
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lapazfarm wrote:
| But where radical unschooling I think sometimes misses the mark is by insisting that all the seeds be planted solely by the child. Since . |
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Theresa,
This is important. Here and on another list I am on, discussions have come back around to this.
It takes me back to the book Homeschooling With Gentleness, where Holly Pieroint (sp?- sorry my copy is on loan) reminds us to TRUST God, TRUST our children and TRUST nature (their innate ability to learn)
Do I trust that God will give my dc what they need, lead them, put the right opportunities in front of them?
I have given this a lot of thought when it comes to college. That old debate.. do we prep and prep, 'teaching to the test', or let them find their way? Do we trust that God will guide them? How much do we put our oar in?
I wonder if the radical unschool position (with a Christian side) would be that if we trust God, we know he will lead?
I am not ready to go there yet, since I see the responsibility of parents to guide.... but I wonder.
How do we guide but stay out of the way so they can hear God?
I think that is where we run into trouble, trying to be purests in unschooling.
We are not perfect. So if we do as you say, provide the fertile enviornment and keep to what is real, lay out the feast, let the connections be made, God will work with us and our imperfections.
Oh, this is not making sense. If anyone knows what I am trying to say can you restate and make better sense of it for me?
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lapazfarm
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I understand what you are saying, about trusting that God will give our dc what they need. I certainly believe He will.
But I would counter the radicals with the fact that God gave US parents to our children. Should we deny them the opportunity of loving guidence of the parents God gave them? I guess this is one of the things that really bugs me about radical unschooling. It is as if they feel that parents' influence on children is bad or corruptive in some way. That children will somehow be better of if parents would leave them alone. Where in the world does this come from? As Christian parents, we need to remember that we are gifts to our children just as they are gifts to us.
As for the college debate-I think we would be negligent to not expose our children to the world of standardized testing (at an appropriate age). That does not, however, mean prep and prep and teach to the test. It means showing them what they will be faced with and helping them however we can. Giving them the benefit of our own experiences as well as those of others. As we all know, there is a world of difference between guidance, and drill-and-kill.
I am really enjoying this discussion because while it raises many interesting questions to ponder,it is also helping me to clarify and solidify some of my thoughts and beliefs on the matter.
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tovlo4801
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lapazfarm wrote:
I understand what you are saying, about trusting that God will give our dc what they need. I certainly believe He will.
But I would counter the radicals with the fact that God gave US parents to our children. Should we deny them the opportunity of loving guidence of the parents God gave them? I guess this is one of the things that really bugs me about radical unschooling. |
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Oh, you hit a thought point for me. This is something I've given a lot of consideration to over the last year. (and just to be clear I'm not even pretending to speak for radical unschooling. ...just my own perspective here, which might run a bit toward radical--I don't know...)
I certainly believe I was given to my children. I certainly believe that it is my responsibility to provide loving guidance to my kids. The key I'm coming to realize is in HOW I give that guidance. This is where I think the differences break down.
I'm coming to believe (probably always did internally and have just freed my natural radicalness ), that my kids ARE the best ones to make decisions for themselves. My role is not to step in and make the decisions for them, but to stand by their side, holding their hand and helping them really, truly see all the options I can open up for them. Lots of ways to accomplish that. (I think even asking--requiring even maybe--on occasion they try something they don't want to do so they can have a real experience to weigh in their decision) However, I think the key in the perspective shift is to realize that our children were not given to us in order for us to run their lives for them, but to guide them and offer them information and perspective as they make their own choices.
That's my perspective (and I do suspect that I am a little on the radical side, but the radical's would probably disagree ). I guess I just don't think the idea of God giving US as parents to guide our children is inconsistent with unschooling.
Some thoughts to add into your pondering...
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Willa
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Cindy wrote:
I wonder if the radical unschool position (with a Christian side) would be that if we trust God, we know he will lead?
I am not ready to go there yet, since I see the responsibility of parents to guide.... but I wonder.
How do we guide but stay out of the way so they can hear God? |
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I think the radical unschoolers do a lot of "guiding" -- as you've said before, Cindy -- "mindful parenting". They observe, they focus, they strew and provide an environment of serenity and affection, as much as possible. Plus a belief and trust that learning is in everything -- that we really can't NOT learn. In a way that is very Catholic -- everything is good IF it helps us towards heaven.
I can go along with that part theoretically. I can't always figure out the details. I'm a big picture type person -- I need a vision and then I try to keep the details in line. So TOO much hands-off, becomes for me a hesitancy to do anything at all.
But what I REALLY intended to say was: have any of you ever read that book that the Growing Without Schooling newsletter referred to often -- The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff? I haven't read it myself, but I know it influenced a lot of the early unschoolers.
It is apparently about attachment parenting see this site but it goes beyond infancy to describe how children in some tribe the author studied for years were brought up. Very little punishment, very little obvious attention to parenting or education at all. The parents (or siblings) simply carried the baby everywhere and lived their normal lives, then as the children got older they steadily took more and more of a part in the work of their parents and siblings. Perhaps it was a bit like child-raising in Jesus's time ?? Or perhaps not, I don't know enough to tell.
However, one of the things the author remarked was that the attachment-parenting method doesn't work as well if it becomes too child-led or child-centered. There is an article about that
here
She writes:
Quote:
| It appears that many parents of toddlers, in their anxiety to be neither negligent nor disrespectful, have gone overboard in what may seem to be the other direction. Like the thankless martyrs of the in-arms stage, they have become centered upon their children instead of being occupied by adult activities that the children can watch, follow, imitate, and assist in as is their natural tendency. In other words, because a toddler wants to learn what his people do, he expects to be able to center his attention on an adult who is centered on her own business. An adult who stops whatever she is doing and tries to ascertain what her child wants her to do is short-circuiting this expectation. Just as significantly, she appears to the tot not to know how to behave, to be lacking in confidence and, even more alarmingly, looking for guidance from him, a two or three year old who is relying on her to be calm, competent, and sure of herself. |
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I am throwing this out here because I am thinking that part of my difficulty with "real" unschooling, which I admire but can't seem to get the hang of, is that "unschooling" is associated in my mind with that kind of short-circuiting. Please, note, I said "in my mind" -- not that unschooling IS this way. I am somehow sending myself internal messages that get me into dilemmas. The child is admirably suited to be a disciple, learning from imitation, and he is looking for role models. There's a whole lot of potential there WITHOUT any kind of coercion or even planned direction. So maybe the kind of natural unschoolers I've seen and heard about are doing this naturally -- just inviting their kids into their lives and interests and beliefs. A lot of the stories from the early issues of Growing without Schooling seem to illustrate this kind of thing going on -- and the Colfaxes in Homeschooling for Excellence are another example.
So this all applies to what's going on with ME; I thought I'd throw it out here, half-expecting that it is blindingly obvious to everyone but me.
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Willa
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Fascinating article, Willa.
So, if I go according to this idea of unschooling, I should just go about my business of planting my garden, doing my cooking, reading, etc, and invite dc to join in. And their natural inclinations will be to observe. And since I am older, I supposedly know what I am doing and they can model themselves after me.
I like this.
I can really see how this would work in a simple society. I wonder how this translates to the much more complex world we live in? Will a child learn American government this way, other than simply how to vote? How about Calculus? I'm not saying it is impossible because it probably can be done, but just wondering. I know my dc will never see ME doing calculus in the course of my every day. Fractions, maybe, Algebra maybe. But Calculus?
Lord knows I wish we still lived in a simple world where a child can learn everything they need to know by observing their family members in action, but unfortunately we don't.
Please understand, I LOVE the idea. It's just the details. And maybe a lack of trust, too. Not lack of trust in my children, but I am not so sure I should just trust that they will get everything they need without my direct intervention. It's part of the philosophy that I have not quite bought into yet. Maybe after I try it in a couple of weeks I will feel differently. It is already working for writing, grammar, reading, etc. I can easily see it working for history and science. So, I guess it could work for other things too.
Maybe it's just the math...
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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Willa
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Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
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| Posted: April 04 2006 at 8:14pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
Will a child learn American government this way, other than simply how to vote? How about Calculus? I'm not saying it is impossible because it probably can be done, but just wondering. I know my dc will never see ME doing calculus in the course of my every day. Fractions, maybe, Algebra maybe. But Calculus?
Lord knows I wish we still lived in a simple world where a child can learn everything they need to know by observing their family members in action, but unfortunately we don't. |
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I agree that our world is a bit more complicated than that of a primitive tribe. It wouldn't transfer over completely, but it gives me a different way to think about it.
As for Calculus, I never took it in 17 years of formal schooling. DH did and why? because he was a science/math guy who loved that sort of thing. My oldest is one of those, too. I expect that in the high school years, we will see our kids focusing on their specialties, and staying with broad, general knowledge other than that.
About Am Gov't -- I think voting would bring up some of it, and my oldest when getting ready to vote for the first time, pored over voter handbooks and really took an interest in his Am gov't class because it was real to him; he was a citizen.
I agree with you, there'd be some challenges and it occurs to me that living on a farm would be rather helpful (I don't!).
The main thing that struck me is that it would provide a balance between just sitting around waiting for the kid to DO something so one could follow his lead, and doing things TO the child. Rather, WITH would be the operative principle. Also, it would solve that intuitive dilemma we feel -- God gave our kids parents for a REASON -- and kids are formed by the environment they are in, whether we like it or not.... they don't just emerge and develop in a vacuum.
It's snowing hard up here -- when will spring come???
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Cindy
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| Posted: April 04 2006 at 8:58pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
| It's snowing hard up here -- when will spring come??? |
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OT--
Oh, send some here! The humidity is upon us and the skeeters are already biting! lol
Wish I could send you some 'warm', Willa!
Reading and thinking.. good posts, all...
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: April 04 2006 at 10:10pm | IP Logged
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I was browsing around and came across a reference to this book: Child's Workby Nancy Wallace.
Anyone read it? Is it worth a read?
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Two interesting links on unschooling..
