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Cindy
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| Posted: April 01 2006 at 6:18pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
| It's not awful, but it seems sort of "desultory" in CM's words, to me. |
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This is a great discussion... I have been out of pocket and am still catching up.
In the meantime I would like to ask what the definition of desultory is. In the sense that it is negative and something to avoid. How would this play out in our home, what would an example be?
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: April 01 2006 at 6:24pm | IP Logged
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Cindy wrote:
WJFR wrote:
| It's not awful, but it seems sort of "desultory" in CM's words, to me. |
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In the meantime I would like to ask what the definition of desultory is. In the sense that it is negative and something to avoid. |
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Funny! I was thinking about this thread this afternoon and realized I was just assuming desultory meant sort of lazy. I decided I should look it up in the dictionary. Dictionary definition is passing from one thing to another in an aimless way; disconnected; not methodical.
It's phrased in negative terms, but I decided I'm not necessarily against desultory education. I accepted long ago that unschooling would mean some disconnection in the way things were learned and it would not be methodical. I think connections will be made, but in a more removed and not methodical way. :)
Just what my curiosity turned up. I'd be curious to know how it fits with the more CM context it was used in here.
God Bless,
Richelle
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Cindy
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tovlo4801 wrote:
[
Funny! I was thinking about this thread this afternoon and realized I was just assuming desultory meant sort of lazy. I decided I should look it up in the dictionary. Dictionary definition is passing from one thing to another in an aimless way; disconnected; not methodical.
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I would like to find Charlotte's writing on desultory to see what she says.
My thought is this-- how do we tell if what is going on in our children's minds? Sometimes what looks like a lull is an occasion of them making connections. Would a lull constitute being desultory?
Or are we talking looking desultory from the outside- if it is not looking good on paper or following a plan?
Taking Richelle's definition, the next step would be to decide if we are watching for desultory-ness within the child's mind or with what shows up tangibly (product).
I would tend to be concerned with desultory-ness when it is occruing inside the child and causing him/her to feel aimless and random- anxious and negative. I think giving them them freedom to move from project to projects can be posiitve- putting their education in their hands. I know when I am creative, I like to be able to move at my will as I work on various things. I also usually have several books going at once and read them in a random fashion.
Looking at desultory-ness from the outside-in would be the product. What product are they producing and is it a sustained effort in one subject? Is that important?
Is there a need for a child to keep a sustained effort in one subject at at time for follow a plan through?
I tend to think they are learning skills for life/work/college and making sense of the world through the reasoning of the less-structured (more desultory) method. Though they will need to know the world will require them at times to stick to tasks- some unpleasant, and that (like test taking for example) could be a skill to be learned.
They can learn the stick-to-it-ivness in other areas... chores, their chosen projects, manners, virtues--- and perhaps in a study here and there. But must it be required in the bulk of learning?
Questions I'm pondering too. But I am finding I value the freedom to learn at will over the need to follow a plan. But a mix might be the ticket.
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Cindy
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| Posted: April 01 2006 at 10:29pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
Krispie squares with my help while 3yo played a Pokemon card game along with his older brother and sister.
-- sent 10yo ds off to baseball practice with his dad.
--teen boys are presently playing a Star Wars computer game while teen daughter watches Pride and Prejudice and browses through a prayer book.
It's not awful, but it seems sort of "desultory" in CM's words, to me. Of course I haven't written everything, just the things I noticed. We are recovering from illness so other days might be a little more lively, but our default mode IS pretty relaxed. |
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Willa-
I have been thinking about your day.. (thanks for sharing it)-- and also your wondering how to work with many children. I thought that perhaps the challenge of a large family is just knowing what is going on with each of them? Some of your dc are like some of mine :D
that they spend a lot of time inside their heads- and that product is not as apparant.
I wonder if we could take peek into each of your dc's heads and see what connections they were making.. reading the books, watching the videos, cooking etc... there might be so much going on it would put aside any worries. It is harder to know what more introverted dc are thinking and connecting with, since it doesn't naturally come out in words.
It takes an effort at times to know what my dc are up to- and it comes and goes. Lulls happen in this area, too. For me, I have to make sure I connect regularly with the dc. I have other distrcations, if not little ones, work I'm doing for my dh's co. and my own projects. So, I put it on my schedule to do so, have the informal meetings Leonie has written about, etc.
I wonder if you scaffolled that to know what your kids were doing, if you would find it was not so desultory.. but creative? Maybe it is a factor of currently not knowing as much about their activities as you could with some structure?
I may be way off... but just an idea-- I hope I'm on the right track.. if not, please ignore.
Oh, and then if you check in and the dc really are feeling a bit lost (i.e. desultory) then you could offer ideas, set a spark, etc. I guess that is what I am trying to do right now here, too.
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Willa
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Richelle and Cindy,
Your thoughts on "desultoriness" are thought-provoking and I am going back to read more carefully once I get the toddler to sleep. Meanwhile, since you inquired, I pulled some Charlotte Mason sentences out of the plaintext vol 1 and 6 online to put "desultory" in her context -- here they are in her words:
Quote:
Where is the harm (of not cultivating a habit of attention)? In this: not merely that the children are wasting time, though that is a pity; but that they are forming a desultory habit of mind, and reducing their own capacity for mental effort.
Desultory reading or hearing is entertaining and refreshing, but is only educative here and there as our attention is strongly arrested.
I say discovered, and not invented, for there is only one way of learning, and the intelligent persons who can talk well on many subjects and the expert in one learn in the one way, that is, they read to know. What I have found out is, that this method is available for every child, whether in the dilatory and desultory home schoolroom or in the large classes of Elementary School.
Supply a boy with abundant mental pabulum, not in the way of desultory reading, (that is a sort of idleness which leads to mischief), but in the way of matter to be definitely known, give him much and sound food for his imagination, speculation, aspiration, and you have a wholesome-minded youth to whom work is a joy and games not a strain but a healthy relaxation and pleasure. |
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I am going to look at these in the context of what you both said, and I would love to hear any insights that occur to you.
It occurs to me almost immediately that this sentence of hers: "Desultory reading or hearing is entertaining and refreshing, but is only educative here and there as our attention is strongly arrested" has a backhanded complementarity to the idea behind unschooling. Factor in here that CM thought only about 10% of the ideas presented in her more structured curriculum would actually sink in to a given child's mind and germinate. So if these desultory (AND entertaining and refreshing) pursuits only lead to a 10% follow-up, the "desultory" unschooler is still doing pretty well, then? Gives me something to ponder, anyway.
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tovlo4801
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Quote:
...What I have found out is, that this method is available for every child, whether in the dilatory and desultory home schoolroom or in the large classes of Elementary School...
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The first thing that occurred to me was that I wasn't sure what dilatory meant either.  (In case anyone else didn't know, it means causing or tending to cause delay; meant to gain time, defer action, etc. inclined to delay; slow or late in doing things)
Your comments below actually summarized very well my first undeveloped thought.
WJFR wrote:
| Factor in here that CM thought only about 10% of the ideas presented in her more structured curriculum would actually sink in to a given child's mind and germinate. So if these desultory (AND entertaining and refreshing) pursuits only lead to a 10% follow-up, the "desultory" unschooler is still doing pretty well, then? |
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The other thought that occurs to me (undeveloped as well) is the idea that a non-methodical (desultory) way of approaching education is not necessarily contradictory to the way she says all intelligent persons learn--reading to know. My understanding (and brief experience) says that an unschooled child in a supportive environment often pursues interests by reading to know. Sometimes they even manage in their self-directed way do it methodically.  So I'm not sure that I accept that unschoolers develop a desultory habit of mind. I think they often learn to exercise a methodical habit of mind when they learn through guidance or experience a situation calls for it, but they may feel more free to employ an aimless exploration of ideas when a situation allows for it as well. I think that the ability to be able to freely range around a subject or apply oneself methodically depending on the situation might be a plus. 
Thanks for pulling out the context and sharing it, Willa. I'm looking forward to reading what others thoughts are.
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Cindy
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Thank you for the Cm quotes, Willa. Reading them, I had to get back into the spirit of her writings.. as I have not delved into them for a while. I would like to go back and immerse myself a bit - how did you find the quotes? Where in Vol 1 did you start? Thanks...
Some thoughts....
Quote:
Where is the harm (of not cultivating a habit of attention)? In this: not merely that the children are wasting time, though that is a pity; but that they are forming a desultory habit of mind, and reducing their own capacity for mental effort.
Desultory reading or hearing is entertaining and refreshing, but is only educative here and there as our attention is strongly arrested. |
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I think the habit of attention is one of the most important ideas from Cm. I don't know if she is connecting the being desultory with NOT having this habit cultivated. Or is she associating desultory-ness with the content of what the child is reading... or with a lack of structure in studies? I would like to go back and read more to see.
I take from her passage, that she is describing a child who flits from one thing to the next, not neccesarily physcially, but mentally. And has not had the practice of spending time with a thing/idea.
To me this goes beyond unschooling/traditional learning to the atmsophere of the home and what has been encouraged from the beginning. I remember Cm writing bout the habit of attention with an infant... giving them time, love, space to thoughouly explore an object of interest in their enviornment. Not being rushed from one thing to the next and being encouraged to make a connection with whatever it is they are attending to.
Fostering that habit is an intangible in the home- it is an attitude of the mother, modeling and also giving space and encouragement for the child, no matter what age.
Taking off on a tangent here. I think this is a big reason for all the ADHD problems we have today. Children are rushed from class to class in school and their day is filled up with activities and they never have that space, or the enoouragement to pay *attention* to one thing. I am reminded of John Taylor Gatto's Dumbing Us Down and his lament that children in schools have no time to be alone to think and are slaves to the 50 minute bells.
If a child is never guided to foster that habit of attention, I think it would result in desultory thinking in all areas of life, whether in ps, traditionally structured homeschool or unschool.
In a way unschooling can foster non-desultory thinking because the child is given time and space with an idea/project/activity. Chances are high as well that they will be spending time with an idea of interest to them. I think about how my mind is engaged with an idea I am intereted in (such as writing this post), vs something I have been told to do (such as the work for my dh's comapny). I have the ability to focus on the unpleasant work in large part because of the mental muscles I have developed in pursuit of the interest led projects I have launched.
So, here is our dc 'fliting from project to project' in our home. What is going on inside? Is he not able to connect and is feeling frustrated and discontent so he moves on... or is he exploreing, engaging and moving on as the creative and inquisitive sprit moves him?
A long way to say, that I think this is an inside job issue. We can't always tell by outside appearcnes what is really happening inside the dc's head. (though sometimes we can.. again that contentment will show).
What do you all think?
Quote:
| I say discovered, and not invented, for there is only one way of learning, and the intelligent persons who can talk well on many subjects and the expert in one learn in the one way, that is, they read to know. What I have found out is, that this method is available for every child, whether in the dilatory and desultory home schoolroom or in the large classes of Elementary School.. |
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They read to know- that brings me back to interest-led as well. Here she is describing the home school room as dilatory and desultory... (not the dc themselves but the schoolroom)- so perhaps here she is blaming the structure of the learning day. Cm was very structured with short classes for the morning hours of the day. Perhaps she is saying here that if the child has developed the habit of attn they can function in any envirnoment?
Quote:
| Supply a boy with abundant mental pabulum, not in the way of desultory reading, (that is a sort of idleness which leads to mischief), but in the way of matter to be definitely known, give him much and sound food for his imagination, speculation, aspiration, and you have a wholesome-minded youth to whom work is a joy and games not a strain but a healthy relaxation and pleasure. |
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Ah... this ia about brining in great ideas! Back to laying out the feast. If I give my dc dry curriculum, watered down ideas (twaddle) then they will not engage, their minds will wander as they look at the clock or keep checking to see how many pages there are before this dreaded chapter is finished.. and attention is divided over and over.. not fostering the habit of attention, of locking in and finsihing a mental project.
But if we give them the gold, the ideas they can/will connect with, they can know the feeling of immersing themselves, then looking up after a period and realizing they just spent two hours and it seemed like 5 minutes.
I don't mean to give a CM speech.. but I really do believe this. And find myself always going back to it.
I have wondered if a child needs to 'learn' how to trudge through hard/difficult/uninteresting studies at a young age so he will be able to later in college, etc. I am thinking now that they can learn that skill, flex those mental muscles in perusing interests they love. It is like grammar. I used to think they had to do a little each day for 6 years to learn it. But instead see that they can be exposed to literature and writing and will learn the rules 'all at once' when they are ready.
Perhaps because they have learned the habit of attention throughout their lives?
If a child is given encouragment, time, space, good 'pablum', perhaps the mental muscles of following a project through can be developed in a superior fashion to forced slogging?
And about the 'great ideas'... what is twaddle, etc. I think of twaddle as the dry, predigested stuff. Ick. I sometimes walk in a local teacher's store and get this knot in my stomach... it is all so colorful, shiny racks of workbooks all down the aisles, giant posters of the presidents or the digestive system.. and can't breathe! They have taken all these lovely ideas and chewed them for us and stuck them on racks for us to buy and put in the kids' heads! My boys won't go in there.. it is so boring.. just sucks the air out of your lungs... (sorry.. what a rant!) lol
But, I see value in things that Cm maybe would not... like the video games my boys love. They read, research and play, discuss and engage. A favorite example I have is of the walk throughs that are written on line. The documents are literally 100+ pages, and I see my sons skimming, absorbing, rejecting and finding answers they seek. This is a form of research and reminds me of all the researching I did in college. Same skill, and I was nowhere near their level of research skills when I was their age.
Maybe some games are not deep, but they are engaging. And think the habit of attention is transferable. At this point, I focus on brining in ideas that are great in themselves (CCC, saints' writings, etc) to mix with the not so lofty but engaging things the boys persue on their own. Just some thoughts about ideas, attention, etc.
Oh, just re-read that last paragraph and have to add for integrity sake. My oldest son (15) will debate the inferrence that video games are all shallow. He has described to me the depth of the characters of many of the games, esp the RPG games and thinks there is a bias against them because they are not books. Yes, books are good, but just because it is not a book does not mean it is not deep and valuable. And I have found he is right. (But it meant I had to go up and see what he was doing!)lol
Enough from me.. wow this got long.. took a whole cup of coffee. If anyone is still reading I look forward to your thoughts.
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tovlo4801 wrote:
The other thought that occurs to me (undeveloped as well) is the idea that a non-methodical (desultory) way of approaching education is not necessarily contradictory to the way she says all intelligent persons learn--reading to know. My understanding (and brief experience) says that an unschooled child in a supportive environment often pursues interests by reading to know. Sometimes they even manage in their self-directed way do it methodically. So I'm not sure that I accept that unschoolers develop a desultory habit of mind. I think they often learn to exercise a methodical habit of mind when they learn through guidance or experience a situation calls for it, but they may feel more free to employ an aimless exploration of ideas when a situation allows for it as well. I think that the ability to be able to freely range around a subject or apply oneself methodically depending on the situation might be a plus.
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Well said, Richelle!
I think you said in 50 words what I just tried to write in about 400....
thinking... what can cause a dc to cross from freely exploring to being desultory?
Any thoughts?
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Willa
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Cindy, the first quote was from Vol 1 and it was indeed about the habit of attention.....  you know your CM.
The other ones were from vol 6 -- Philosophy. I simply went to the plaintext volumes on Ambleside and physically pulled them out. I did have them in a sort of context but it would have made them too long. But I think they were a bit more self-explanatory anyway; they were mostly about older children and talking about a sort of ease and half-attention, like mental channel-surfing I suppose.
NOW -- first Cindy and Richelle, one of you mentioned incidentally that you didn't think her comments necessarily were a condemnation of unschooling itself. Just to clarify, I COMPLETELY agree. This thread is about scaffolding unschooling, it seems. How we do things to support what we want for our kids out of unschooling.
Cindy wrote:
Quote:
| But if we give them the gold, the ideas they can/will connect with, they can know the feeling of immersing themselves, then looking up after a period and realizing they just spent two hours and it seemed like 5 minutes. |
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They call this FLOW -- it comes up a lot in personal productivity books (I read a BUNCH of those in the fall). There's a definition here
Absolutely, I agree that is one of the things that unschooling can give a kid -- that building school and structure by itself, can definitely NOT. And I take Richelle's point that sometimes what looks like nothing or not much on the surface can be either a needed "lull" (you've written about that, CIndy) or actually a flow experience because we don't know what's connecting under the surface, especially with introverts.
THe experience of "Flow" through childhood play and projects, they say is a great precursor of adult happiness and work satisfaction and productivity, FAR more so than whether the child learned to toe the line and drudge through meaningless busywork changing every time the bell rang.
So I absolutely agree with the points you made, Cindy -- predigested stuff (ICK) is not the answer, mental work muscles can be developed better by this flow type experience than by anything else, and so on.
I guess I'm looking at my homeschool and thinking -- we are not getting there entirely, somehow, so what are we not doing? Maybe there's not enough "good stress". Some challenge is important in "flow" -- of course, it has to be intrinsically meaningful challenge, not pressure from outside.
Part of it is probably the disparity of ages. One probable solution is to start parcelling out the workload better because as it is I have enough to do all day to keep ME busy and run me into the ground, but the kids are sort of on their own all that time. Then I retreat to the computer to pull my thoughts together and they again are on their own.
When I think of parcelling out work (beyond what we do now) I hear a little RU voice in my head saying, "Why should your kids have to do YOUR work?" I don't have an "unschooling answer" to that -- see? I have a CM/Catholic answer -- it's GOOD for them and it will benefit the whole family.
Oh, you will know I'm crazy, now -- I have little Gollum/Smeagol conversations in my head! I'm typing in a hurry BEFORE my coffee so this is probably a bit disconnected.
I guess the larger question I am asking is: As an unschooler, given that I agree this "flow" experience is of great importance in developing ability and work ethic, how do I best provide that environment?
I think one characteristic of "desultory" for me personally is that I feel there's all the time in the world to do something. That's almost the reverse losing track of time in the flow of things. Another characteristic of "desultory" is that it's all minutiae -- no real effort or thinking challenge involved.
Incidentally, I think that computer games provide "flow" to boys -- a challenge, with increased levels of difficulty but not overly punitive, where success builds on success and there is little emotional or psychological consequence for occasional "failure" -- it's just a step to eventual success. I think that's one reason computer games are so involving for our boys. Boys have it hard in our society (not in our own homes, of course: )) -- they are so often restrained and disciplined just for being boys. Even the team sports are pretty controlled from above. Video games and skateboarding give them a reprieve from that -- probably like fishing in the old days  -- and in my family, it's a social experience as well, with lots of affirmation and sharing. Not knocking that in limited doses, but it would be nice to find some parallels for them in other areas more traditionally considered to be first-rate.
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Cindy wrote:
thinking... what can cause a dc to cross from freely exploring to being desultory?
Any thoughts? |
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I think you said one thing that crosses the divide the other way, from desultory to exploring. Richness of experience. I can already see I need to devote more attention to that aspect of things... "planting seeds". I'm now trying to brainstorm HOW.
" strewing" works a little less well for my kids because they're not all that focused on their exterior environment. They can trip over or walk past some new thing, on their way to do whatever they're doing. Talking about my boys more than my daughter here. ... and not being negative, either. I actually LOVE that in my boys, it's why I married their dad, but it does make normal strewing techniques less effective.
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tovlo4801
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Cindy wrote:
So, here is our dc 'fliting from project to project' in our home. What is going on inside? Is he not able to connect and is feeling frustrated and discontent so he moves on... or is he exploreing, engaging and moving on as the creative and inquisitive sprit moves him?
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Oh, you guys are just rich in things to think about. I had to pull this one out. You mentioned this in your earlier post and I missed commenting on it. This is a huge insight to me. The same outward appearance might be very different internal realities. If my child is feeling unable to connect and frustrated and discontent, then I certainly want to step in and help! I suppose like Willa mentioned earlier about breaking down a project and helping her kids get started when they struggle. That takes relationship and a connection with a child to figure out that difference doesn't it?
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One more thing. I wanted to say again that our unschooling attempt has not been a failure. Not at all. The kids have made TONS of progress this year, except perhaps for one ds who is in an extended lull.... I think he's making progress in an inner battle but it has not shown up on the surface that much -- he's struggling a bit and looks "desultory", which is new for him, and so his situation is one reason for my concern.
My kids have read MANY good books, they've kept up on math without it burdening down their day, we've had great conversations. My daughter's musical interests have blossomed. They all seeem more connected, somehow, even the one who's struggling; hard to explain precisely but the autonomy has given them more comfort in their own way of doing things.
I'm trying to fine-tune and to figure out where to go next year, not saying that it's not working.
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WJFR wrote:
| Oh, you will know I'm crazy, now -- I have little Gollum/Smeagol conversations in my head! |
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If that's crazy then you've got my company. Those conversations are an almost constant presence in my brain. Unfortunately the voices in my head never seem to reach any resolution, but just keep throwing opposing ideas at each other. 
WJFR wrote:
| They call this FLOW -- it comes up a lot in personal productivity books (I read a BUNCH of those in the fall). There's a definition here |
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Did you find the books helpful in your homeschooling? Do you have any titles you'd particularly recommend? I think the idea is very interesting.
WJFR wrote:
| When I think of parcelling out work (beyond what we do now) I hear a little RU voice in my head saying, "Why should your kids have to do YOUR work?" I don't have an "unschooling answer" to that -- see? I have a CM/Catholic answer -- it's GOOD for them and it will benefit the whole family. |
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I would say that everyone in a family has a responsibility to maintain the home and that this makes it everyone's work not just YOUR work.
WJFR wrote:
I guess the larger question I am asking is: As an unschooler, given that I agree this "flow" experience is of great importance in developing ability and work ethic, how do I best provide that environment?
I think one characteristic of "desultory" for me personally is that I feel there's all the time in the world to do something. That's almost the reverse losing track of time in the flow of things. Another characteristic of "desultory" is that it's all minutiae -- no real effort or thinking challenge involved. |
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I'm thinking of desultoriness again. I couldn't find the quote (maybe because it was in your post Cindy?) about it being kind of like mentally flipping through the channels. I wonder if we don't really need desultoriness of mind sometimes. Don't we need to set the focused attention aside sometimes to rest and just let things flit past without much attention? I know I do. After those periods of rest, I'm usually ready to jump back in with renewed vigor. That's why there's Sunday, right?
So with schooling (any sort), maybe it is healthy to have periods of time where we are in "flow", where we have that focused mentality that really engages with material, and then have other times where we rest, where we're mostly just letting things flit by without much attention.
Personal example that keeps jumping to my mind. I did the NaNo novel writing thing in the fall. My attention was FOCUSED. I was convinced that I wanted to write. I was disciplined. By mid-December I could feel the weight. My family was suffering and I just didn't feel the passion. I weighed it and found that it just wasn't worth keeping up. I dropped it. It essentially sat for three months. Just last week I decided to pick my story up again. I found myself completely engrossed again. Just last night I spent most of the evening searching out information on verb tense and active/passive voice so that I could go through my story (methodically, btw ) and make some revisions. I needed that rest period of aimlessly flitting through casual writing and reading (e-mails mostly  ), in order to find myself back in a place of application. Stuff was happening in that lull that continued to grow my writing. I read things that inspired me. I began starts of new stories. I used and reinforced skills in my aimless writing that I had gained during my period of methodical and intense writing.
So I guess I just wonder if we sometimes need periods of desultory learning to go hand in hand with those times when our interests or life circumstances require more focused habit of mind.
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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
| " strewing" works a little less well for my kids because they're not all that focused on their exterior environment. They can trip over or walk past some new thing, on their way to do whatever they're doing. Talking about my boys more than my daughter here. ... and not being negative, either. I actually LOVE that in my boys, it's why I married their dad, but it does make normal strewing techniques less effective. |
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OOOHHH! Lightbulbs!! We're an intuitive family here. Strewing works OK, but to be truthful I don't just lay it on the table and expect them to notice. They won't. I mention I have it and explain why I thought they might like it. I don't push and they are free to pick it up or not. I find they're more likely to with that attention drawn to it.
Now I get it! With the intuitive tendency my oldest especially is going to be focused internally on whatever is going on in his brain. In order to strew I need to strew into his brain. Discussions are how strewing will need to happen here. That's always been the most successful, but I've never really felt like it was strewing. For an intuitive child it is! That's how you plant the seeds. For a child more aware of the physical surroundings leaving a book or project out would be fine. They'd notice. But for an intuitive child you have to get the ideas inside them and that happens with discussions. Wow! I know everyone else here is probably just laughing it took me so long to see this, but it's a major aha! moment for me.
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| For a child more aware of the physical surroundings leaving a book or project out would be fine. They'd notice. But for an intuitive child you have to get the ideas inside them and that happens with discussions. Wow! I know everyone else here is probably just laughing it took me so long to see this, but it's a major aha! moment for me. |
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Lightbulb for me, too! You put the pieces together GREAT! I don't know if it's obvious to everyone else, but it wasn't to me -- just clicked right now! Ah, insight
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Cindy
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tovlo4801 wrote:
Now I get it! With the intuitive tendency my oldest especially is going to be focused internally on whatever is going on in his brain. In order to strew I need to strew into his brain. Discussions are how strewing will need to happen here. That's always been the most successful, but I've never really felt like it was strewing. For an intuitive child it is! That's how you plant the seeds. For a child more aware of the physical surroundings leaving a book or project out would be fine. They'd notice. But for an intuitive child you have to get the |
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Richelle!
You just nailed this for me! EXACTLY!
Willa, when you described how traditional strewing does not work in your introvert family- you got us down to a tee.
Yes-- we are strewing to their brains. Thank you for putting that in words.
I think that is why discussion is SO important in our house. And one of my ds will talk and talk and talk.. the other just listens. He is a perrphial kid. But I will find later he has absorbed as much or more, thought about it and formed opinions. But the 'product' is much, much different than other children or even my other ds.
Maybe the form is:
Step 1: Strew to their brain
Step 2: Connect periodically and mine their brains for product.
In essense again, what Cm says, but altered to fit our families' temperments.
Oh so much more to comment on... I'm still reading.
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Cindy
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More on strewing to their brains.. and thinking of your post on 'How?' Willa...
I find I have to strew differently to each child. Willa I know you have a large family. Thinking if I were in that positiion I know I would have to take notes. Really.. I have to write things down to remember to do them and take notes on my two, too.
With one ds, he will pick up a magazine on the coffee table, sometimes. If I really am enjoying a book, audio, movie, crossword, etc he will listen to me as I share. He TRUSTS me now when I recommend things to him. If I love it but dont' think he will, I will tell him. Sometimes I share a book, etc that I know is not appropriate in total for him (such as Memiors of a Geisha that I watched last night) but will share the ideas, but not the source.
If I read something I know he will like, I tell him. 90% of the time he will try it and my hit rate is pretty good- about 70% of the time he will finish it. Right now he is listening to The Man Who Listens to Horses (i have mini-review of it on my blog)
I used to find books I thought were 'good for him' and assign them. Now I only suggest books highly that I have read (and yes, it keeps me busy reading and I often pick up things b/c I think they might like them, I want more science, history, biography etc)-- and now he really trusts my recommendations. And if he doesn't like them he doesn't have to finish. Though sometimes I will ask him to... it is an art more than a science as to when I do.
My other son is very careful about new things. Usually what happens is the first son will try my recommedations and IF he really likes it, then the other son will then pick it up. Hey, not the standard strewing, but it works for us.
The second son is also the periphial guy. So the first one will have animated discussions with me (he would make a great lawyer or apologist) and the other son will listen on the edges. Sometimes literally on the edges.. at the doorway, or while reading or doing something else.
But the ideas get to his brain.. and he will come up with gems sometimes.
For the perifphial kids, I assign more. He likes it that way. I used to wait for him to take off with something, then give mini-lectures to him about why he didn't. Finally he said... 'just tell me what to do.' Could this be similar to your house, Willa?
So I choose very carefully, ask him to do a bit each day and then check in. What did you think? How is it going? Do you want something else for a while? I have to really plant those ideas in his brain.... with my little spade.. as with my other son he will come and take the ideas around the house more readily on his own.
Just some thoughts on how the idea planing has gone here.
Again, something I am working on and find essential is to then follow up. How is the book, what did you think? or tell my opinion and ask if they agree. This is the product.. I hear their thoughts.. deeper than ANY" discussion I ever had in class in high school. I jot it down in my notebook and it goes on his transcript. It is real.
Willa, I would bet that is happening in your house, too.
Maybe the scaffolding is also taking the time for meetings or check ins (on your calendar) to see what is happening and faciliate, guide discuss, suggest, etc.
You may be doing this already, but when I hear you say that you don't see result I still wonder if like me, you feel that why when there hasn't been check ins happening. That is almost always the case at my house. And with your larger family, maybe it would take some additional planning and structure (on your part) to do so?
I would like to hear more about the brain strewing at your houses....
(I ran out of time, so ended up typing fast.. sorry if it seemed curt or disconnected...)
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lapazfarm
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WoW! Take a couple of days off to get the computer tuned and start the garden and look what I missed! You lkadies have been having a fascinating converstation and I am trying to catch up on it all. I have a few questions and comments.
Desultoriness: did we ever come up with a real way of determining whether dc skipping from one thing to the next is desultory or just creative meandering? IS there a difference? I would think it would be in part whether or not dc return to the subject or make connections with other topics. For example, if dc is reading briefly about native americans, then picks up a cookbook, then goes off to do some writing, we might think of this is desultory. But if what he read shows up in his writing, or in conversation later, then connections were made and it could be considered worthy learning. I don't think it is necessarily the length of time spent on a topic that determines "attention" but whether or not it is retained in some way? Couldn't that be more of an indicator of attention vs. desultoriness? (is that even a word?  )
Strewing: I find the idea of strewing to the brain fascinating. I am in gardening mode right now so I think of things in these terms. Strewing books on a table is like broadcast seeding-hoping some of it will take. Not too much effort on our part and generally not used for those topics(seeds) that are most important. Mentioning a topic in passing, perhaps something you are reading or enjoying is like gently covering the seeds with soil-a little more effort in hopes of a better germination rate. Strewing to the brain through conversation/discussion is like directly planting of the seed deep into the bed-the most effort for hopefully guaranteed results. Which is the best method? Well it depends on the seed and the child, of course.
Anyway, those are my crazy ideas, inspired by the dirt currently under my nails! I look forward to reading some more of what I've missed.
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Cindy
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lapazfarm wrote:
| Desultoriness: did we ever come up with a real way of determining whether dc skipping from one thing to the next is desultory or just creative meandering? IS there a difference? |
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Hi Theresa-- welcome back! See what happens when you leave the computer for a minute?
I would love to explore this. My initial thought is:
It is desultory if the child's mind is dulled by the experience. This is not the same as if he is in a lull, peaceful, or just daydreaming. But if it is negative. The best way for to think about it is how it feels to me.
When I am meandering, listless, feeling dull or in angst, that is desultory. But, if I am interested, exploring, doing good work (like my boring data entry that is accomplishing something), or even in more passive times, just flowing, then it is not.
I think Richelle had a good point that all valuable thought/work need not be 'great ideas' or books on a approved list.
I can think of times I have been desultory and those are times when I am wasting time, afraid of trying something, in a negative frame of thought, etc. And I would love a loving mentor to come along right about then and give me a little spark, smile or plant an idea right in my brain. My dh did that for me just the other day. :)
Is that a start on a definition?
lapazfarm wrote:
Strewing: I find the idea of strewing to the brain fascinating. I am in gardening mode right now so I think of things in these terms. Strewing books on a table is like broadcast seeding-hoping some of it will take. Not too much effort on our part and generally not used for those topics(seeds) that are most important. Mentioning a topic in passing, perhaps something you are reading or enjoying is like gently covering the seeds with soil-a little more effort in hopes of a better germination rate. Strewing to the brain through conversation/discussion is like directly planting of the seed deep into the bed-the most effort for hopefully guaranteed results.
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Oh Theresa, I love this! Actually the same analogy came to my mind when I posted earlier. I thought of a little garden shovel, or one of those deal you use to dig a hole for bulbs... and a little seed or idea is planted right in the brain! Maybe it will spout, maybe not. And love your idea of 'broadcasting' seeding. When I started the strewing that is how I understood you did it. When it didn't work for my boys I just thought we could not unschool. But, as I began to find more creative and direct ways to bring the ideas in, I see that strewing can take many forms.
I would love even more ideas.
See, your gardening was for a reason! Glad you spent the day out there, not only to come up with a great analogy to share but I bet your yard is looking pretty!
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lapazfarm
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Product:
This is still the thing that gets me most. I can fully relate that many products (or most) could and perhaps should be intangible. But there is also a lot of value in products which are tangible. I'm not talking even about mom-assigned products, but even child initiated ones. For instance, to kick off history this year,ds and I studied paleolithic cultures-cave drawings and tools, etc. One day we decided, just for kicks, to try to start a fire using the methods we had seen in our books-the stick, bow,twisting, etc method. We tried and tried, but were never successful in getting anything close to a fire going. We kept running into design problems and wishing we had proper tools, etc. Just the attempt at that product taught us so much about the culture-gave us a new respect for the cave dwellers and their struggles. We decided we made pretty lousy Neandertals!
Anyway, to make a long story even longer, if we had not attempted "product" and only relied on our readings, museum visits, ewtc, we would have never have had this deeper understanding. And I think this may be true for many concepts. (For instance, I had my middle school class build trebuchets one year-what a learning experience). I also think of science labs as "product." Ex: building electric circuits.You never fully understand some concepts until you put them into practice. Perhaps this is a bit of an expanded definition of "product"?
With this definition in mind, the trick might be to be sure that the product is something of value, and isn't just busywork. It should prompt dc to apply what they have learned in new ways and stretch them into deeper understandings. So...in this light, I think I may value product quite a bit.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Two interesting links on unschooling..
