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Servant2theKing
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| Posted: Dec 06 2010 at 6:18pm | IP Logged
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I haven't read this thread in its entirety, but a stunningly beautiful example keeps coming to mind as I read these thought-provoking and inspirinig posts...I remember reading of a young man who washed the feet of his wife on their wedding night and crying over the beautiful message such an act gives of what Christ-like "headship" truly is or ought to be.
The phrase, "Love serves", written by St. Bernard of Clairvaux to his sister when she was head of a convent, could also be perfectly applied to the Trinitarian roles of husbands, wives and children. When we see headship, submission or obedience simply as means to serve one another, as God would have us do, all earthly perceptions or misconceptions fall away into grace-filled, holy understanding and a deeper desire to emulate the Holy Family in their own fulfillment of their God-given roles of husband/father, wife/mother, and Son.
The older I get, the less complicated things have become. Submission or headship are much simpler than we try to make them....it all boils down to mutually loving one another, with servants' hearts! I believe in Love"...."Love begets love"...."Love serves"...."In the end, the greatest of these is Love"..."Love is the more excellent way." What an incredible time of year to focus on how we can all better love and serve as Jesus did. Thank you, dear ladies, for continually enriching our lives with your insightful heart sharings!
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All for Christ, our Saviour and King, servant
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mamalove
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I too spent lots of time reading protestant stuff on the subject. At many times it really messed with my head and made me doubt the fatih because it "seemed" the Catholic Church was not teaching these truths. BUT she is! This is a scriptual teaching, and is fully Catholic. But like was said before, stay away from protestant stuff for the most part. There are Catholic resources that will give you the teaching from the fullness of the faith.
Kimberly Hahn has a beautiful CD from ST Joseph Communications called "More Precious Than Jewels" which is a great totally Catholic resource on how to be a godly woman and wife. She goes into all these hot topics of submission ect with the Catholic viewpoint.
Another great resource is Christian Family Outreach, a Catholic source for great teachings on family life as seen through the lense of the True Faith. They have many pamphlets that deal with these issues, and many of them you can listen to online. Good stuff, with the blessing of Father Robert J Fox, may he rest in peace.
Also, there are many good antique Catholic books that go into this subject beautifully. Anything from before the 1950's on family life is filled with wisdom placing the mother as the queen of the home, fully in her power there, under the spiritual headship of her husband and ALL under the Lord.
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Sanveann
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LLMom wrote:
| I haven't read all of the replies, and I don't have time to post a long "Catholic" perspective, but I did want to mention to be careful of reading protestant info on this topic. Many of them go way over the top and believe in a philosophy called Patriarchy that is very harmful, taking submission to an extreme. |
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I concur. I've been doing a lot of reading lately about Vision Forum, ATI and similar Protestant movements, and some of what these organizations promote is, frankly, terrifying. (In one instance, a prominent leader suggested that Christian parents not teach their daughters to drive, as it should be up to their future husbands whether or not they be permitted to learn.) It also creates a perfect environment for abuse, IMHO.
I really like this explanation of submission in the Catholic marriage from Catholic Answers.
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 6:17pm | IP Logged
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Sanveann wrote:
| It also creates a perfect environment for abuse, IMHO. |
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I worked with women who were beaten by the men in their lives. The agony is without description  . I worry that my words here will be misunderstood, will be twisted to condone abuse or physical violence, to the point that I hesitate to write.
Yet, I want to try to share the hope that the teachings of the Catholic Church offer, the clarity of the Catholic perspective, to the best of my current ability, however imperfect.
I'm going to ask simple questions and generally accepted definitions of key words to further draw out the intent of Church teaching. I'll use physical violence as an example to illustrate.
How is this* (*act, thought, program, advice. etc.*) mutual?
Quote:
MUTUAL
1. possessed, experienced, performed, etc., by each of two or more with respect to the other; reciprocal: to have mutual respect.
2. having the same relation each toward the other: to be mutual enemies.
3. of or pertaining to each of two or more; held in common; shared: mutual interests. |
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I did know wives and husbands who mutually placed physical violence on each other. Yet, in the vast majority of cases, the husbands hit the wives. In the cases where women hit their husbands, the husbands were bigger and stronger, inflicting more pain. Physical violence isn't mutual.
How is this* loving?
Quote:
LOVE
15. to have love or affection for: All her pupils love her.
16. to have a profoundly tender, passionate affection for (another person).
17. to have a strong liking for; take great pleasure in: to love music.
18. to need or require; benefit greatly from: Plants love sunlight.
19. to embrace and kiss (someone), as a lover.
20. to have s*xual intercourse with. |
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Physical violence isn't affectionate, tender, pleasureable, beneficial, or unitive.
How is this* just?
Quote:
JUST
1. guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness: We hope to be just in our understanding of such difficult situations.
2. done or made according to principle; equitable; proper: a just reply.
3. based on right; rightful; lawful: a just claim.
4. in keeping with truth or fact; true; correct: a just analysis.
5. given or awarded rightly; deserved, as a sentence, punishment, or reward: a just penalty.
6. in accordance with standards or requirements; proper or right: just proportions.
7. (esp. in Biblical use) righteous.
8. actual, real, or genuine. |
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I'm not a lawyer, but even our secular culture agrees that physical violence against another is wrong. Assault and battery are illegal.
How is does this* respect free will and informed consent?
Quote:
WILLING
1. disposed or consenting; inclined: willing to go along.
2. cheerfully consenting or ready: a willing worker.
3. done, given, borne, used, etc., with cheerful readiness.
CONSENT
to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
2. Archaic . to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony. |
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The women I worked with were not inclined toward, cheerful about, or ready for physical violence, although they may have "gone along" for many complex reasons.
How does this* ensure liberty, dignity, and nobility?
Quote:
LIBERTY
1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.
4. freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty.
DIGNITY
1. bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.
2. nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments.
3. elevated rank, office, station, etc.
4. relative standing; rank.
5. a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer.
6. Archaic .
a. person of high rank or title.
b. such persons collectively.
NOBLE
1. distinguished by rank or title.
2. pertaining to persons so distinguished.
3. of, belonging to, or constituting a hereditary class that has special social or political status in a country or state; of or pertaining to the aristocracy.
4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
5. admirable in dignity of conception, manner of expression, execution, or composition: a noble poem.
6. very impressive or imposing in appearance; stately; magnificent: a noble monument.
7. of an admirably high quality; notably superior; excellent. |
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Physical violence doesn't include any of these.
*******
I could go on, but I hope this suffices to show one way to become more clear and confident in the teachings of the Church. In her FULLNESS, she guides and protects us. She may not say, "Do this, do that" to the degree that others might, but she gives us CLEAR principles to follow, CLEAR examples from the lives of the saints, CLEAR and carefully written documents, and so much more. She isn't arbitrary! Her teachings are consistent and true.
If a person or group pulls out one word "submit" and uses it to sinful, wrong, or evil ends, we must be ready to help our brothers and sisters and to share our Church's guidance, as best as we can, with ALL of our words.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Sanveann
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Angie, I should have been clearer! I don't believe that submission as it as taught by the Catholic Church lends itself to abusive situations. In fact, I would say that I myself submit to my husband (when our opinions differ, which is rare), because I know that he always has our family's best interests at heart and because I fully trust him.
In addition, I wasn't just talking about physical forms of abuse, but also emotional and spiritual, and particularly how they can be found along with the very extreme forms of submission to a "patriarch" advocated by some Protestant groups such as Vision Forum and ATI or by Michael and Debi Pearl in their book "Created to Be His Help Meet."
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Dec 07 2010 at 8:19pm | IP Logged
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Sanveann wrote:
| Angie, I should have been clearer! |
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I appreciate the we're all trying to be clear - it is difficult work! Thanks, Sanveann, for expanding on your thoughts. You are right, physical abuse is not the only form of abuse, just perhaps the easiest for me to write about...and to see and measure objectively. Your first post and point originally reminded me to clarify my thoughts on suffering, but then I got off on a different (but related) tangent!
Angie Mc wrote:
| Crowns of thorns come in all shapes and sizes. We may be dealing with genetic predispositions that appear to be hard-wired, deeply entrenched childhood hurts, problems handed down through generations, engrained bad habits, mental illness, physical disease and injury, addictions, cultural and environmental undermining. |
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When thorns turn into abuse, it is responsible to seek help for oneself or for others in need.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Betsy
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Sanveann wrote:
Angie, I should have been clearer! I don't believe that submission as it as taught by the Catholic Church lends itself to abusive situations. In fact, I would say that I myself submit to my husband (when our opinions differ, which is rare), because I know that he always has our family's best interests at heart and because I fully trust him.
In addition, I wasn't just talking about physical forms of abuse, but also emotional and spiritual, and particularly how they can be found along with the very extreme forms of submission to a "patriarch" advocated by some Protestant groups such as Vision Forum and ATI or by Michael and Debi Pearl in their book "Created to Be His Help Meet." |
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Sanveann, I took your comment in this light, and I think that you are absolutely right.
Angie, I am also glad that you presented such a clear definition of abuse as well. This information is so helpful.
This has been a very nice conversation, that I have enjoyed reading. 
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mamalove
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The things that scared me very badly when I read all of those books were examples like that. If you just stay and submit to all that you will lead your husband to Christ.
Huh? that is if you actually LIVE through it! And what a terrible example to the children, mama lets daddy hurt her so they can come closer to Christ. Does not make sense to my Catholic way of thinking. A Catholic mama should seperate from him so that she does not keep enabling him to sin against anger.
I remember reading a "catholic" book on the subject that was basically a perjury of "What, me obey Him?" with the Blessed Mother thrown in to make it Catholic. I will not even give you the books title becasue I got such a strong feeling that Satan was involved in this book I never even finished it. Anyway there was an example of a woman with 14 children whos husbands last attack at her was to go at her with a hammer and almost killed her. She was seen in the "perfect submissive wife" light because she did not fight back or call the cops! But the author fininshd the story by telling us he died in a car wreck not long after, and God took care of the situiation.
How sick, How sad! Those babies in the home i am sure are all in therapy at this point, if they even have enough Love for the Lord in them to try to heal thier lives.
Also these protestant books give examples about church attendance. If husband does not want you to go, you dont go, and eventually that will lead him to Christ. Sorry, but for us Catholics, we must obey God first and keep holy the Sabbath and attend Holy Mass under pain of Mortal Sin. We tell husband, Im sorry dear, but Mass is non negotiable.
Abuse disguised under the pretext of "submission" is just a cover up for sins against anger and one spouses rebellion against his Matrimonial vows. If we really love our mate as Christ loves the Church, then in a bad situiation the Chruch calls us to help the husband to ammend his life, and that may call for some very "unsubmissive" behavior (as defined by extreme protestant thinking) in order to help him save his soul.
We know in Catholic teaching that through the Sacrament of our Marriage, we are both channels of Grace for one another. If this channel is clogged by major sin (physical abuse on the husbands part) then we must do all we can to help him heal himself, get to repent and confession, and truley get Jesus to come into his heart so that the Graces may flow again. By enabling him to continue to sin, we are doing nothing to help him ammend his life. We are acutally helping to clog the channels of grace!
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Mackfam
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I thank you all for your sincere and honest sharing on this rich and mysterious topic. There is no doubt that it is a sensitive topic and as such requires extra care since we could be speaking of our spouses, or marital life in general within the framework of one of the seven Sacraments instituted by Christ.
As a board that strives to be Catholic in tone and content we can continue to discuss this topic seeking the Catholic perspective without discussing particulars or examples that are outside of Church teaching. The Catholic Church gives us beautiful, clear direction in living out the Sacrament of Matrimony as well as the roles of the head and the heart through the Catechism, papal encyclicals, and if needed through spiritual direction with a holy priest. While we can explore this topic in general terms here, specific examples and particulars can be avoided since they are best treated individually with spiritual direction.
Thank you all for the beautiful, heartfelt contributions that flesh these ideas out in a practical way seeking the Catholic perspective!
__________________
Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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JodieLyn
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and on that note.. I found my book "The Catholic Faith" by Rev. Robert J Fox that I'd been hoping to add to this conversation.
Quote:
| In an age when there is much talk about "equal rights," there is a need not to confuse roles. The father of the family has great need to manifest love and affection to his wife as such and as the mother of his children. The father is important in the minds of the children in assisting them to form a correct concept of God the Father. The strength (not simply physical) of the father, his understanding and forgiveness, together with justice and the various virtues, all bonded by love as he offers protection and means of livelihood to his chilren, is an image of God the Father. The mother, with her special womanly qualities of mercy, compassion, intercessory powers and tender love as the heart of the home, reflects the goodness, mercy and love of God in a special way as she complements her husband while he complements her. |
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It's really a beautiful thing isn't it?
One more thought on Justice since that's mentioned.. it's easy to think of a judge handing down a sentence for transgressions as being justice.. but I found this and it's so much more..
from "Boys to Men: The Transforming Power of Virtue" by Tim Grey and Curtis Martin
Quote:
| Justice is the virture that enables us to live rightly with others. Justice as a virtue empowers us to take care of others and give them what they deserve and need. Justice means right relations not only with our neighbor, but most importantly with God Himself. "Justice consists in the firm and constant will to give God and neighbor their due" (Catechism, no. 1836 |
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Quote:
| After Cain murdered his brother, God asked him, "Where is your brother Abel?" Cain responds, "Am I my brother's keeper?" (cf. Gen. 4:9). In contrast, we are told that Saint Joseph, the foster father of Christ, was a just man. When Joseph first learns of his bride's pregnancy (before he learns of the divine agency of Mary's pregnancy), he seeks not his own rights but a quiet resolution that woudl not hurt Mary (Mt. 1:19). Jodeph invested his life in the care of Jesus and Mary. He was a man for others. He was a just man. |
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Quote:
| Justice is the virtue that inclines us to give others their due, giving them the respect and honor due to all persons who are made in the image and likeness of God. |
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Quote:
| The virtue of Justice is the habit and disposition to give others what is rightly theirs. Charity goes further by giving to others what is rightfully our own. Even though charity surpasses justice, the can be not true charity without justice. Love must be built upon the firm foundation of justice. |
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I also noticed that in the first quote that "intercessory powers" is mentioned as one of the woman/wife/mother's role. It seems to be that would be with the man/husband/father.. a way of tempering.. and certainly impossible if submission was unquestioning 
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Head of Household--Catholic perspective
