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mary theresa
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*******MODERATOR'S NOTE***********
The first 2 posts in this thread came from the "Tricky Discipline" thread. But, I thought this question/situation deserved it's own thread.
Please share your tips, strategies, thought-processes, helps, books, etc.....that have helped you parent a CHOLERIC CHILD.
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MNMommy wrote:
doris wrote:
OK, here's a discipline challenge...
My 5yo dd is desperate to know what's going on at all times. So she finds my phone conversations unbearable, wanting to know what I'm saying, what the other person said, etc.
I've got strategies in place for that |
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Please share your strategies! My 7yo is a sharp little girl, but she is becoming nosey. She's constantly wanting to be included in all conversations, and I'm not sure of the best (as in nice and effective) way to tell her to "butt out" of my adult conversations. Also, where do you draw the line to identify nosey behavior or even eavesdropping?
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Ohhh, me too!
My daughter is only three and a half  and every day I feel that she is trying to micro-manage my life!
If I'm on the phone -- "who is it? what are you saying? where are we going?"
If I'm talking to my husband -- "who? what? what are you saying? WHY?"
On top of this she is always trying to "police" what is going on -- I literally call her (behind her back  ) my little policewoman! she's usually a polite and sweet little policewoman, but the tone is sort of graciously commanding or allowing, you know? And she sort of "patrols" around checking in on various situations around the house to add her two cents.
"you should do this, Mommy"
"you need to do this"
She wants to be involved in instructing, helping (to the pt of annoyance), and knowing about everything, everyone and every situation.
Especially when she is telling her aunt when to put her baby in the carseat, "giving her permission" for Daddy to give the toddler more food now and generally trying to boss adults around it is making me crazy!
I'll ask my husband to do something and she will repeat it to him as if the request is coming from her
Ex:
Me: "Please, while you're up from the table, will you get more chicken for the 2 yo?"
She: "Daddy, you can get more chicken for ______"
And people get annoyed at her too. She can't stop butting in on what is going on and wanting to know, not just because she is curious, but more like "I need to be in control of this situation" Do you know what I mean?
(By the way, if you can't tell, this child is SO choleric!)
I literally feel like I am always struggling against her trying to micromanage everything.
I tell her "you don't need to know this, just Mommy does"
or "mommy will take care of it"
or "you may not tell adults what to do"
or " So-and-so can make their OWN decision/do it by themself/ doesn't need help right now, etc."
It doesn't seem to make much difference.
How do I help her to grow up not aggravating everybody of every age by trying to (albeit usually very sweetly) control their lives?
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Mary Theresa
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Sarah M
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Listening with both ears about the nosy-girl issue. I have a daughter like that. Drives. me. crazy. And my friends, too, actually. (And Mary Theresa, I have noted that mine is choleric, too- interesting!)
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Fuzzy
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*Raising hand* I have a choleric 4 yo DD here too! I can't stand that she tells me what I "should" do all the time. I have ALL the same questions and issues, and was totally floored to read your post, Mary Theresa. The only thing I can think of sometimes when I am on the phone is something I learned from her Atrium teacher: "Please respect my work." Not perfect, but it works sometimes.
I was reading the "Temperment God Gave You" book and it talks about choleric kids and the fact that they will argue with you, and want explanations all the time. I don't mind explaining things (well, most of the time ) but I do mind being challenged about everything.
The main issue around here with her: She will come out of the bathroom, and I KNOW she hasn't flushed or washed her hands b/c I didn't hear anything. So I will send her back in to do that, and she will insist that she did wash. So, I tell her to come over so I can smell the perfume-y soap on her hands (which I bought for the very reason that I can smell it on her hands, w/o having to get too close  ) and she will even bring her hands to me and let me sniff. ONLY after I have done that will she consent to going back in. It's not always that way, and sometimes I make the mistake of just asking "did you wash your hands?" which always gets a response that I know isn't the truth, so I have tried to stop asking that. I have made signs in the bathroom, we have a little diddy to say to remember but it just doesn't work. With cold and flu season, and the fact that she DOES NOT want any help in the bathroom, this is super frustrating for me. It feels like disobedience, but sometimes I wonder if it really is?
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 Fuzzy
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PDyer
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Choleric eight year old here. Watching this thread with interest.
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Patty
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SuzanneG
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A couple related threads I just found:
Prickly Child
Can You Help?
How do you deal with bossiness?
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Suzanne in ID
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lapazfarm
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Well, I'm not sure what "choleric" means, but what you describe sounds an awful lot like my bossy little JBug! I often tease her that she wants to "rule the world."
She really feels like she needs to control every situation and it is so annoying! She often phrases things as a question to make it sound more innocent ("Mom, is it time for you to take Superboy to Boy Scouts yet?")but I recognize it for what it is--bossiness! It's as if she thinks everyone else is completely incapable of functioning without her!Even me! 
So...I am definitely listening to this thread with interest.
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Jenny
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Another momma to a choleric girl. I can so identify because, ahem, she comes by it naturally  I think that is part of the annoyance, seeing the natural inclinations I dislike in myself, shinning through in her.
I'm interested in reading the responses. One of the problems is she is always there ready to lend a hand. So I let her and then she takes over the place 
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Willa
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My youngest is quite choleric. He is not quite seven, very bright, and can be so bossy to his slightly older but very gentle brother! So I'm reading the thread too, hoping to get some insight on that.
As for taking over Mom's job, I read in the Temperament God Gave You book that if choleric children want to take over everything, give them LOTS of responsibilities that are their own. As much as they can handle -- interference can be the reverse side of a real talent for initiative and hard work!
Then I'd be very firm about the responsibilities that I still claim for myself. "That is MY role right now -- you need to learn more before you can judge that kind of thing." Then perhaps, suggest an alternate "training" type activity for them. The goal is to direct their energy to learning how to take on more responsibility properly, not just grabbing at authority that isn't theirs.
A couple of my friends who have choleric children find it very useful to have a "ritual" response. That is, they don't get pulled into back and forth dialogue or argument. They reiterate very firmly and calmly "That is MY job" and sometimes restate it like a catechism and response.
"Whose job is that?" (Mom's)
"What is YOUR job right now?" (minding my own business -- eating -- whatever).
I think with choleric children you have to be very persistent and concrete. But anger or distress is just a trigger for them to escalate, so the firmer and calmer and more decisive you can be the better.
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Willa
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Bookswithtea
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Willa wrote:
My youngest is quite choleric. He is not quite seven, very bright, and can be so bossy to his slightly older but very gentle brother! So I'm reading the thread too, hoping to get some insight on that.
As for taking over Mom's job, I read in the Temperament God Gave You book that if choleric children want to take over everything, give them LOTS of responsibilities that are their own. As much as they can handle -- interference can be the reverse side of a real talent for initiative and hard work!
Then I'd be very firm about the responsibilities that I still claim for myself. "That is MY role right now -- you need to learn more before you can judge that kind of thing." Then perhaps, suggest an alternate "training" type activity for them. The goal is to direct their energy to learning how to take on more responsibility properly, not just grabbing at authority that isn't theirs.
A couple of my friends who have choleric children find it very useful to have a "ritual" response. That is, they don't get pulled into back and forth dialogue or argument. They reiterate very firmly and calmly "That is MY job" and sometimes restate it like a catechism and response.
"Whose job is that?" (Mom's)
"What is YOUR job right now?" (minding my own business -- eating -- whatever).
I think with choleric children you have to be very persistent and concrete. But anger or distress is just a trigger for them to escalate, so the firmer and calmer and more decisive you can be the better. |
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Just adding to this...the broken record syndrome helps. I cannot count how many times a day I say to a certain child, "How 'bout you let me be the parent?"
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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Fuzzy wrote:
The main issue around here with her: She will come out of the bathroom, and I KNOW she hasn't flushed or washed her hands b/c I didn't hear anything. So I will send her back in to do that, and she will insist that she did wash. So, I tell her to come over so I can smell the perfume-y soap on her hands (which I bought for the very reason that I can smell it on her hands, w/o having to get too close ) and she will even bring her hands to me and let me sniff. ONLY after I have done that will she consent to going back in. It's not always that way, and sometimes I make the mistake of just asking "did you wash your hands?" which always gets a response that I know isn't the truth, so I have tried to stop asking that. I have made signs in the bathroom, we have a little diddy to say to remember but it just doesn't work. With cold and flu season, and the fact that she DOES NOT want any help in the bathroom, this is super frustrating for me. It feels like disobedience, but sometimes I wonder if it really is? |
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OK, no advice, but I do have a funny. When a certain child was 5, that child used to get in trouble for flooding the bathroom floor during bathtime. It was a mommy-grumpy day and I was swishing wet towels all over the floor AGAIN when that child told me (remembering a recent renovation project), "You know, its your fault, because you and Dad put in the bathtub." I couldn't decide whether to or  . These children rarely take the blame. The older they get, the more you have to talk them through accepting responsibility for their actions.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Becky Parker
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Jenny wrote:
| Another momma to a choleric girl. I can so identify because, ahem, she comes by it naturally |
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Just jumping in to ask if I can join the club! My dd is choleric too, and, my dh tells me she's just like me. I cringe when he says it, but I know it's true. Sigh.
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Becky
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Becky Parker
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I would like to take some of these traits of my dd, you know, the ones that drive me nuts because I have them too!,and teach her how to use them for good. Any thoughts on that?
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Becky
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greengables
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Oh WOW!
I had to jump in when I read the word CHOLERIC! There is a lot of CHOLERIC in my family, SERIOUSLY! I never knew what it meant until I took this on-line test. ( I wish I were good at linking and if someone is interested I will try to find it.) Anyway, the on-line test revealed a lot about myself and though I am not very choleric, I do, however, operate in choleric MODE when I am under stress and I think/hope I am finally learning that when I do this, I am using the weakness of the choleric temperament and though it is a SLOW process, I am trying to change the way I respond when under stress given this new knowledge about myself. I also now know that what I used to think about cholerics, though I did not know the word for it in the beginning, is incorrect for I use to view that type of temperament, which in my pride I didn't believe I had any, as a solid weakness through and through. For whatever incorrect reason, I could only see negatives for that type person. After learning more about temperaments, I realized that God has given these amazing temperaments and it is so awesome to see the gifts of each different temperament. It is true that each temperament also has weaknesses that go with it, but it seems that working on the strengths and learning about the different temperaments seems to help people not only understand each other better which helps to strengthen relationships, but also seems to help strengthen tolerance for each other as we realize God has a plan and reason for each gift that He has given!
Though I think labels can be a hindrance, for the above reasons, I also think they are a true aid as well. For example, learning my own temperament helped reveal a lot about myself and my tendencies and opened up a lot of learning for me. I wondered what temperament my children and husband had so I asked my husband and the older children still at home(those who could read) one by one if they would take the temperament test and they did - even some of my grown children that have already left our nest took the test!
The RESULTS:
I laughed when I read the results of the tests and saw all that CHOLERIC in my children which at this time I was still viewing as a solid weakness! It was soooo funny BECAUSE the choleric children were sooooo PROUD of themselves and their temperament and I was NOT!!!!! That is, I was NOT proud of THEIR temperament, but was soooo happy with MY RESULT of sanguine-melancholy! I didn't know at the time all the strengths of a choleric! I didn't realize a choleric has so many leadership qualities and what a blessing they are to their family, friends and society when they learn to use the strengths of this God-given temperament! Now, finally, I do not want to stifle this in my children, but to help them to see how wonderful it is to have this gift and how great will be the results when they learn to use the strengths of a choleric or any temperament for that matter verses the weaknesses of the temperament! (i.e. bossiness!!!!!!)
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Willa
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Becky Parker wrote:
| I would like to take some of these traits of my dd, you know, the ones that drive me nuts because I have them too!,and teach her how to use them for good. Any thoughts on that? |
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Becky,
Any specifics? A lot of weaknesses are the flip side of advantages. My choleric-sanguine, who is quick to throw a temper tantrum, is also quick to hug and sympathize. He is just emotionally QUICK! I have to teach him to build some strategies to avoid his tendency to scold and fire up.
Charlotte Mason said that sometimes harnessing the character trait to help the child deal with his own problematic habits can be helpful. She writes that a little boy who flew into tantrums was taught to run fast and think of it as a battle he was fighting against the enemy -- his anger.
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Willa
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Becky Parker
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Willa,
I think it is her bossiness and need to control that are my biggest concerns. (I say that delicately because it's hard for me to admit my own tendencies.) I know I can teach her to be "in charge" in a nicer way, but I'm just not sure of how to do that, except through example .
I appreciate the Charlotte Mason reminder. I've read several things lately that are reminding me to work on habits with my children, one habit at a time. Maybe I need to just pin-point one thing, like bossiness and keep reminding her of better ways to lead ... ?
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mary theresa
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Willa wrote:
As for taking over Mom's job, I read in the Temperament God Gave You book that if choleric children want to take over everything, give them LOTS of responsibilities that are their own. As much as they can handle -- interference can be the reverse side of a real talent for initiative and hard work!
Then I'd be very firm about the responsibilities that I still claim for myself. "That is MY role right now -- you need to learn more before you can judge that kind of thing." Then perhaps, suggest an alternate "training" type activity for them. The goal is to direct their energy to learning how to take on more responsibility properly, not just grabbing at authority that isn't theirs.
A couple of my friends who have choleric children find it very useful to have a "ritual" response. That is, they don't get pulled into back and forth dialogue or argument. They reiterate very firmly and calmly "That is MY job" and sometimes restate it like a catechism and response.
"Whose job is that?" (Mom's)
"What is YOUR job right now?" (minding my own business -- eating -- whatever).
I think with choleric children you have to be very persistent and concrete. But anger or distress is just a trigger for them to escalate, so the firmer and calmer and more decisive you can be the better. |
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Thank you Willa! I have read that book (The T.G.G.Y.)and have tried to be patient with my daughter's need to have everything explained in detail b/c of something the book suggested, but I had forgotten about the choleric need for more responsibility too. Sometimes I get so irritated at her trying to manage and take over everything that I end up sending her away in frustration saying "Go mind your own business!"
I guess if I tried to think of a way that she could be responsible for something in that situation, the times I did have to say "That is my job (or work) and please respect it" would be more serious and effective. I feel like "That is MY job" is all I say b/c I just want her to quit butting in but sometimes I could include her, give her more responsibility. . . . . I need to brainstorm about what this would look like. . . .
Part of what I see in her (and in other cholerics I know, though I was suprised to see it in one so young!) is a lack of ability to let go of something, to trust -- even in Jesus, or her parents to take care of something in a satisfactory way. It's as if she has this need to be involved and in control of things -- and I can't help thinking that even in this early stage something needs to be done about this. Lack of trust in God or others is a choleric weakness ("I can do it best and fastest!" right?) and I want to find a way to gently show her that she can calm down, rest, and not stress out about what is going to maybe, possibly happen or not happen if SHE doesn't say/do/provide something!
I also see how she tries to manage her sister, who is generally obliging and compliant (phlegmatic like me) and I bristle b/c I've been in on the recieving end of bullying/manipulating/managing before (frequently) and I want my second daughter to grow up with a voice, to be able to do what SHE thinks is best and not doubt herself because she was bossed around by a choleric so much that she doesn't even know or trust what she thinks anymore.
And that is partly my own baggage coming out. But I do need to find a way to not be irritated at the annoying bossy part of my 3 yo and channel or direct that bossiness to appropriate situations . . . because I know it's not going to ever disappear! I can't change her, but she does need to learn not to try to bulldoze people -- already! At 3! Good grief.
I try to remember how this child is MY daughter for a reason, and is the oldest sibling for a reason and that this tired phlegmatic mother whose life she is trying to dictate and supervise NEEDs her for my own growth. Even though it mentally wears me out feeling like I am always struggling against being bossed around, maybe that struggle is good or sanctifying for me in some way . . . right?
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Mary Theresa
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Nina Murphy
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I also am enjoying this thread as my first choleric child, number 6, daughter, age 8, has absolutely challenged every notion I ever had about parenting. I simply can not believe her sometimes---my mouth just hangs metaphorically open. (Some people who don't live with her think she is a riot.....believe me, it gets old.)
She also has a chronic illness that has affected her in ways we could not possibly know since birth so it complicates understanding/discerning her behavior and how to respond even more.
This is always what I say interiorly when I feel especially frustrated and confounded: God knew that she would need to be tough in her life. She has been equipped temperamentally for what is ahead of her with a fighting spirit! She is going to need to "boss" her own life in a sense and have that holy "audacity" that pushes her through trying and testing times. (She has enough audacity for the whole family!)
I HAVE seen how her incorrigibility has served her in giving her the will to push herself physically and even, academically. I'm sure someday she will truly need to push herself spiritually, as well (she is only 8, after all). My prayer as her mother is that she will prove to be a great Saint and strong leader in the cause of Truth (the saying that cholerics end up great saints or great sinners......!). That's all I truly hope for. I can't wait to see how she responds to the challenges in front of her, how she grows and matures in her individual uniqueness and personality.
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mary theresa
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Fuzzy wrote:
The main issue around here with her: She will come out of the bathroom, and I KNOW she hasn't flushed or washed her hands b/c I didn't hear anything. So I will send her back in to do that, and she will insist that she did wash. So, I tell her to come over so I can smell the perfume-y soap on her hands (which I bought for the very reason that I can smell it on her hands, w/o having to get too close ) and she will even bring her hands to me and let me sniff. ONLY after I have done that will she consent to going back in. It's not always that way, and sometimes I make the mistake of just asking "did you wash your hands?" which always gets a response that I know isn't the truth, so I have tried to stop asking that. I have made signs in the bathroom, we have a little diddy to say to remember but it just doesn't work. With cold and flu season, and the fact that she DOES NOT want any help in the bathroom, this is super frustrating for me. It feels like disobedience, but sometimes I wonder if it really is? |
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Fuzzy, something I thought of -- maybe this is too annoyingly labor-intensive? -- is to say that "if you come out of the bathroom without washing your hands, you will lose the responsibility to be a big girl and do it by yourself. I will come and make you do it."
If she doesn't want help in the bathroom then she needs to show you that she is a big enough girl to take care of things properly on her own -- could that sort of wording work?
Using the word "responsibility" and that particular grown-up responsibility being taken away -- sometimes works for my daughter.
Though, sometimes if I "move her body" to do what she should if she can't/is choosing not to (something I learned from a toddler Montessori directress) it turns into a wrestling match, so I suppose that could backfire.
I hope this helps!
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Mary Theresa
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mary theresa
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Nina Murphy wrote:
God knew that she would need to be tough in her life. She has been equipped temperamentally for what is ahead of her with a fighting spirit! She is going to need to "boss" her own life in a sense and have that holy "audacity" that pushes her through trying and testing times. (She has enough audacity for the whole family!)
I HAVE seen how her incorrigibility has served her in giving her the will to push herself physically and even, academically. I'm sure someday she will truly need to push herself spiritually, as well (she is only 8, after all). My prayer as her mother is that she will prove to be a great Saint and strong leader in the cause of Truth (the saying that cholerics end up great saints or great sinners......!). |
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I love this! This is similiar to what I try and say to my husband who is choleric too and CAN'T STAND how choleric is daughter is (funny clashing of similiars there!): "God gave her strength and competence and perseverance for a reason. She's going to be a strong woman someday!"
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Mary Theresa
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CrunchyMom
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My husband is a choleric-sanguine, and I am a sanguine-choleric, so, both our children have both tendencies, and it is hard to determine just which is dominate at this point. I'm leaning towards choleric with my three year old, but I'm thinking maybe all three year olds are choleric to some degree
My three year old is my challenge, atm, and he seems to desire authority and control, but he is also lazy (the negatives of both temperaments, blah!). He wants to help, but only on his terms, to perform a task I've asked his brother to do, but not his own.
An effective strategy to get him to do things would be to act as if its a privilege and I'm giving it to his brother to do. However, that does not seem an effective strategy for building his character (merely in manipulating his behavior). Any thoughts?
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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4Real Forums : Mothering and Family Life
Topic: Parenting Choleric Children
