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Kristie 4
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BTW, I looked at our provincial DSL type of online packets for highschool you can get as homeschoolers- the lit course looked like pretty slim pickings! And the History!!! Talk about BORING- textbook after textbook of Canadian History! And believe me, no tomatoes here, Canadian History can be interesting if you get the right books, but a text could never make it anything but dry!!!
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Moni
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Quote:
| Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of what an honors English class or a private school English class might expect, for comparison |
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Yes, and it varies so much from school to school it borders on the ridiculous.
It just really varies.
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Willa
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Your descriptions are similar to what I am finding. It makes me wonder, are the courses we are developing as homeschoolers more the equivalent of a freshman level college course? |
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I meant to say when I read your post earlier -- YES, in a lot of cases. Certainly that was the case with my oldest son. I didn't realize until after he was in college how much I'd actually expected of him. Comparing our homeschool to some ideal, I always thought we were doing education-lite, but it was not so. Fortunately he thrived on it, and I learned in time so that I didn't force my very different second-born to live up to the same standard.
It's so tough to discern these things. I am thinking it's a bit like the difference between "good pain" and "bad pain" when you're working out. My 8th grader is enrolled in K12 this year, which is a step up in work from what I've expected in the past. He complains about the "history journal" and the assigned essays. However, at the same time the work is energizing him, not dragging him down.
At another time in my life, one of my kids wasn't doing well with my expectations. It was causing real problems. I backed off and should have done that sooner, or flexed things to make them better for that child. I'm going to try never to get to that stuck point with a kid again (can't promise, but it is a priority).
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Willa
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stellamaris
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The standards of education have really declined in the last 20 years or so, and before that they had fallen also. I do think most homeschoolers, even the "relaxed" ones are covering lots more material than is covered in most schools. For one thing, the course title might be Algebra I, but the content of the book is what would have been 7th grade math back in the day. One of my dd's friends at private Catholic school told me she didn't do division until SIXTH grade! Yikes! So the content is at a lower level, and the work requirements are also considerably less. My dd only has a small amount of homework, and some nights none at all. She is writing less than we did when she was homeschooled, and covering far fewer subjects. I have learned that I was being to intense as far as the number of subjects and material we covered each semester, but I was basing it on my own high school experience (I did also take several AP courses). I would try to keep the expectations high, Books, but if your dd is struggling, you could require fewer subjects. You might start with fewer subjects, and then add a supplemental subject or two if it's too easy for her. Dh is calling me for dinner (he just got home, it's 8:44 p.m. here...),got to run! Post more later 
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Caroline
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Bookswithtea
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Willa wrote:
Certainly that was the case with my oldest son. I didn't realize until after he was in college how much I'd actually expected of him. Comparing our homeschool to some ideal, I always thought we were doing education-lite, but it was not so. Fortunately he thrived on it, and I learned in time so that I didn't force my very different second-born to live up to the same standard. |
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stellamaris wrote:
| My dd only has a small amount of homework, and some nights none at all. She is writing less than we did when she was homeschooled, and covering far fewer subjects. I have learned that I was being to intense as far as the number of subjects and material we covered each semester |
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Well, at least I know I'm in good company, for having pushed too hard.  It sounds like you are adjusting throughout the year and hoping to just find a decent balance?
When you planned for the next in line, did you automatically reduce a bit from where your original expectations were, and then tweak from there? Or would you consider those original expectations the right goal, and something to work towards?
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Barb.b
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I think that overall our expectations aren't too high, its that public schools are too low. So I guess I wouldn't automatically reduce anything. I think instead of comparing ourselves to public schools we should ask if we are preparing our kids for college (by requiring more studying, more writing and more reading . .. ). If the answer is yes, then your OK. Kids will generally live up to (or down to) our expectations (scary thought though!)>
Barb
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Willa
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Bookswithtea wrote:
Well, at least I know I'm in good company, for having pushed too hard. It sounds like you are adjusting throughout the year and hoping to just find a decent balance?
When you planned for the next in line, did you automatically reduce a bit from where your original expectations were, and then tweak from there? Or would you consider those original expectations the right goal, and something to work towards?
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Great questions -- really making me think!
I didn't automatically reduce. In my own case, you probably know I'm always teetering between unschooling and classical, both with a CM-y twist. So the way a given year would look would depend upon:
1. The kid, his or her abilities and inclinations.
2. The standards and expectations "out there" -- preparing my kid for the college and adult world.
3. My general intuition about what our family needed that year.
And yes, I would expect to adjust a little as the year went on. Not so much making it easier, but just adjusting. Sometimes a child can go further than the expectations, or do the same thing in a different way more suited to his or her ability.
I suppose I didn't really lower expectations. Since you ask, I do think that schools nowadays expect way too little of the kids. Schools use syntactically boring texts with lots of dry information to memorize uncritically, rather than living books where you have to ponder and evaluate and carry on an internal dialogue with the author. When they do use "real books" they study so few and those are not very challenging. Lord of the Flies and To Kill a Mockingbird are serious books in one way and certainly worth reading but they are not really difficult reading. Spending a whole school year on just a few relatively accessible books is less than what most homeschools do.
By about middle school, many kids taught at home using unschooling/CM/classical methods can read books directed to adults. CS Lewis/ Tolkien/Chesterton/ St Therese of Lisieux/ The Odyssey/ Shakespeare etc. These books teach them to grapple with mature ideas and develop adult habits of thinking without the tedium of literature packets and silly vocabulary assignments. In many ways, the kids take over their own education. Sometimes I suppose homeschooling moms have trouble seeing how much can be learned from this kind of thing that our children do naturally.
So I don't think my expectations were really too high. I just think I took too much for granted -- over-estimated how much was been done at college prep schools, and under-estimated the quality and quantity of what we were doing at home. That's probably the main way I adjusted, realizing that we were doing more than I thought, just in a different way. That helped me not to push out of anxiety when a kid was having trouble. I didn't really "lower expectations" because I think kids are intrinsically rewarded by dealing with challenging material; but I just felt less pressured and anxious and so I was able to get more comfortable about tailoring things to the student.
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Willa
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Barb.b
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Willa wrote:
[QUOTE=Bookswithtea]
So I don't think my expectations were really too high. I just think I took too much for granted -- over-estimated how much was been done at college prep schools, and under-estimated the quality and quantity of what we were doing at home. That's probably the main way I adjusted, realizing that we were doing more than I thought, just in a different way. That helped me not to push out of anxiety when a kid was having trouble. I didn't really "lower expectations" because I think kids are intrinsically rewarded by dealing with challenging material; but I just felt less pressured and anxious and so I was able to get more comfortable about tailoring things to the student. |
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So well said!
Barb
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stellamaris
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Ditto that, Barb! Willa, that was so well put! I know I absolutely under-rated the level of the work we were doing here at home, and I had a very unrealistic image of what was actually being accomplished in the schools. There is such an emphasis, even at the high school level, at the "fill in the blank" kind of work and test prep that it is hard to remember the much higher value of reading real literature and interacting with it thoughtfully, either through discussion or even just pondering/writing on insightful questions. But it is exactly this type of learning that truly prepares a soul for life, in the most complete sense. Books, I'm not sure we have ever "found a decent balance", although hope springs eternal!  We just sort of struggle on from one week to the next, sometimes pushing, sometimes backing off, trying to work at a reasonable level of consistency, and sometimes failing even that! I do think it is pretty obvious if a child is being stressed by unreasonable expectations. Also, by the time they are 16 or 17, they really need to understand and accept for themselves the importance of the school work they are doing. I don't think after about 17 I have all that much to do with their schooling; mostly, they are pursuing knowledge themselves. If they don't "get" the importance of knowledge and understanding, then getting them to doing the level of work necessary is like leading a horse to water. You still need to encourage them, but it's a lot tougher on you to see to it that they do the work. If they do "get" it, they will ask for more work, seek it out, and basically challenge themselves.
With regard to balance, there's no magic formula, only your own observations and insights into that particular child's situation/personality. I only wish there were some easier way!
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Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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Bookswithtea
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So then, in hindsight, it wasn't that my expectations were wrong, but maybe how much work I was expecting of ds in those years? Maybe the right thing would have been to keep up the high expectations, but to maybe cut the number of writing assignments back a little, or something else, so that he was finishing at a reasonable hour?
I am not one that gravitates to classical...I'm more along the Sonlight/Charlotte Mason continuum. I tend to cram in the books and written responses...probably more than is necessary. 
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Blessings,
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Angie Mc
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Willa wrote:
| So I don't think my expectations were really too high. I just think I took too much for granted -- over-estimated how much was been done at college prep schools, and under-estimated the quality and quantity of what we were doing at home. That's probably the main way I adjusted, realizing that we were doing more than I thought, just in a different way. That helped me not to push out of anxiety when a kid was having trouble. I didn't really "lower expectations" because I think kids are intrinsically rewarded by dealing with challenging material; but I just felt less pressured and anxious and so I was able to get more comfortable about tailoring things to the student. |
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That's it!
What I've learned from our first high schooler is that for us, it's about our relationship. If something academic comes between us...we let it go. So much in academics is arbitrary, plus...I want to...need to... leave space for the Holy Spirit to enter into any given moment. Honestly, our family has had good luck by under-functioning  . We don't hold college as a goal, but a privilege...one that you can get to on a straight or crooked path - if so called. My dh and I place little pressure on academics (except for the occassional freak out over Algebra - me that is ) and a lot of emphasis on learning about life. I'm sure this is, in part, because both my dh and I had silly schooling experiences, were late-bloomers, yet managed to get advanced degrees...which have helped us to some extent, but aren't the end all or be all of our lives....so...
High school expectations? Know how to..
surrender to God and depend on the Church.
take responsibility for personal health and care.
build family and personal relationships.
serve others.
discern personal gifts/talents - emphasize them.
discern personal challenges - face and deal with them.
choose and enjoy a good book, movie, and music.
do math plus algebra and geometry...in time.
write a good 5 paragraph essay.
do research online and at a library.
communicate with adults.
use a computer and other communication devices.
think critically.
order personal space and time.
get and keep a job.
enjoy life through fun, activity, and humor.
My list may seem more philosophical than practical...but I think it leads me to practical applications. Goodness...thanks for letting me ponder this with you all. Writing our list down has been cheering to me  .
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Bookswithtea
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Angie Mc wrote:
surrender to God and depend on the Church.
take responsibility for personal health and care.
build family and personal relationships.
serve others.
discern personal gifts/talents - emphasize them.
discern personal challenges - face and deal with them.
choose and enjoy a good book, movie, and music.
do math plus algebra and geometry...in time.
write a good 5 paragraph essay.
do research online and at a library.
communicate with adults.
use a computer and other communication devices.
think critically.
order personal space and time.
get and keep a job.
enjoy life through fun, activity, and humor.
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Angie, I didn't know it, but I think I really needed to see your list. We have similar views when it comes to college, I think. I'm not sure why I am stressing out about this so much, except maybe mother guilt for the last two years with ds and wanting to avoid mother guilt with dd in the upcoming 3 yrs.
In either case, your list of priorities is what helps a person to be balanced, a whole person, which has always been our goal.
Thank you for reminding me.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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stellamaris
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Books-when you get down that whole thing about avoiding mother guilt, please post how you did it! It will be the most popular thread here, I'm sure!
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In Christ,
Caroline
Wife to dh 30+ yrs,ds's 83,85,89,dd's 91,95,ds's 01,01,02,grammy to 4
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Angie Mc
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Oh, I'm glad you like it, Books. I really value your ponderings...gets me pondering  .
What I'm learning - the hard way of course - is to protect decisions my dh and I make (and with our teens we include them HEAVILY in our decision-making that affects them.) There really is a lot of pressure to perform - for our "students" to perform well and for us as parents to "produce" well-performing students...yikes - no wonder there's stress! There is so much more to life and...we can't read into the future - we can't assume that A+B=C, that a certain academic course plus a certain number of years = a fabulous outcome. A+B=C is too presumptuous and too small...God's will is much bigger and more mysterious than that!
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Angie Mc
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stellamaris wrote:
| Books-when you get down that whole thing about avoiding mother guilt, please post how you did it! It will be the most popular thread here, I'm sure! |
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Absolutely . God bless us for even trying this mothering thing...God bless us!
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Bookswithtea
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Angie Mc wrote:
Oh, I'm glad you like it, Books. I really value your ponderings...gets me pondering .
What I'm learning - the hard way of course - is to protect decisions my dh and I make (and with our teens we include them HEAVILY in our decision-making that affects them.) There really is a lot of pressure to perform - for our "students" to perform well and for us as parents to "produce" well-performing students...yikes - no wonder there's stress! There is so much more to life and...we can't read into the future - we can't assume that A+B=C, that a certain academic course plus a certain number of years = a fabulous outcome. A+B=C is too presumptuous and too small...God's will is much bigger and more mysterious than that!
Love, |
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This is so true. I have never even bothered to look at standards in the past, beyond reading my few and favorite homeschool catalogues each spring. But having a child move into "the system" has freaked me out, I think. At first, I was worried, wondering if he would fail (which would be my fault). And now that he's excelling, my thought is pretty much that the school is failing him. It strikes me that I have a very glass-half-empty attitude about the whole thing.
But when I look at the bigger picture, the outlook is much better, and it relies on God, not on my teaching or the best program, or the best school.
I think I need less planning and more God.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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stellamaris wrote:
| Books-when you get down that whole thing about avoiding mother guilt, please post how you did it! It will be the most popular thread here, I'm sure! |
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Hmmmmmmmmmm...I'm pretty good at mother-guilt. I don't think it'll be me starting that thread.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Erica Sanchez
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Angie Mc wrote:
My dh and I place little pressure on academics (except for the occassional freak out over Algebra - me that is ) and a lot of emphasis on learning about life.
High school expectations? Know how to..
surrender to God and depend on the Church.
take responsibility for personal health and care.
build family and personal relationships.
serve others.
discern personal gifts/talents - emphasize them.
discern personal challenges - face and deal with them.
choose and enjoy a good book, movie, and music.
do math plus algebra and geometry...in time.
write a good 5 paragraph essay.
do research online and at a library.
communicate with adults.
use a computer and other communication devices.
think critically.
order personal space and time.
get and keep a job.
enjoy life through fun, activity, and humor.
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I am so happy to have stumbled across this old thread this afternoon, espcially for your post, Angie! Music to my ears! After spending this morning and most of the last few months stressing about high school and feeling like we are way, way behind and not doing enough, etc., your words brought so much comfort.
Love the list! Love, love, love it! It's printed and will be posted on the fridge. :) It's exactly how we feel. We want all of our kids to go to college, via community college for some, and the 'requirements' can be overwhelming. I feel like we're always one or ten steps behind. I don't want to forget the important things.
Much love,
__________________
Have a beautiful and fun day!
Erica in San Diego
(dh)Cash, Emily, Grace, Nicholas, Isabella, Annie, Luke, Max, Peter, 2 little souls ++, and sweet Rose who is legally ours!
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Angie Mc
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Oh Erica, I'm glad you posted! Now that my first is in college and my second is doing high school at home, I'm even more comfortable with the list I pulled together quickly last year.
Here are a few more expectations, quickly pulled together ...
take initiative socially
take primary responsibility for college application and scholarship process
That's A LOT! Praise God for graces received!
I look forward to hearing more about your adventures, Erica.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Erin
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Angie
Thanks for this list
Like your idea Erica, have printed it out.
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Erin
Faith Filled Days
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: high school expectations
