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MicheleQ
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TracyFD wrote:
MicheleQ wrote:
| when someone asks me how we homeschool and when I say we use the Charlotte Mason method they respond with "Oh we prefer more structure and academics!" |
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I wonder how common this misconception is? |
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All too common in my experience. And it's not that a CM inspired education can't be more free and loose --many people do it that way with much success but if you look at the way CM did things there was definitely structure!
TracyFD wrote:
| About overlap in methods (I am just starting Mason's Vol. 1) I found her recommendation of dressing children in wool rather fascinating because the Waldorf philosophy recommends the same. Not that it has much to do with academics - it's rather peripheral, but my understanding is that the Waldorf belief in wearing wool has to do with the child's body being the right temperature for the soul to incarnate and Mason's recommendation is based more on general health practices. |
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The right temperature for the soul to incarnate? Seriously? I'm pretty sure Miss Mason would have taken exception to such thinking --as do I in fact. How odd.
Of course Miss Mason was living in the Victorian age but if one is not allergic (and I know many are) wool is quite nice!
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Michele Quigley
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http://michelequigley.com
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Elizabeth
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MicheleQ wrote:
I should have been more clear. We have gone back and forth based on what works for the child and I do think it's OK to adapt and tweak.
What I insist on though is a clear representation of a CM's philosophy and I like to clarify that there really is a difference between a CM structured education and a CM influenced education. Neither is necessarily better and I've had success with both but I do find it frustrating when something is presented as a CM education that really only has some CM elements.
I guess that sounds kind of picky but I have seen people throw out the whole idea of CM because they thought it was something it wasn't. I am sure this would make more sense if I could give you an example but my mind is going in a thousand different directions at the moment and I am drawing a blank.
Anyway, my recommendation of When Children Love to Learn has more to do with it being what I think is a solid presentation of the practical application of CM's philosophy.
It's what we've tried to do with Mater Amabilis too but we make it clear that you need to make it work for your child and not to be a slave to the program. Does that make sense? |
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This is crystal clear to me. What I think is important here is to truly understand CM for what CM intended. Really take the time to read it and to explore what the purists have done with it.
Then, and only then, can it be tweaked to good advantage if necessary. In some homes, straight CM might work beautifully. So, I think that when Michele makes the distinction between a CM structured education and a CM influenced education it helps to understand the structured and then move to the influenced, if so desired. It doesn't necessarily work as well in reverse.
I've never had a CM structured education in our home. Well, maybe our first CM year was close. But, I find myself returning every summer to pure CM in order to anchor myself before planning a CM influenced curriculum. And if ever I had to choose one philosophy and be completely pure about it, there is no doubt that I would choose CM over Montessori and Waldorf in a heartbeat (assuming I could retain a Catholic spirit). So, I tend to create a CM education with a few Waldorf influences and a few Montessori influences. And, honestly, a few Konos influences. The Konos comes more form my formal training as a teacher and my own education in teaching using unit studies. CM isn't pure unit study and I definitely see her wisdom there. I'd let Waldorf, Montessori, and Konos all go for CM if pushed to choose.
I, too, wonder where the notion that CM is unstructured originates. People I know who are CM purists are absolutely structured. And most people who are CM-influenced educators are structured as well. There are unschoolers who began as CMers,so there's a little CM flavor to their homes, but I don't know that they'd assert that what they are doing now is a Charlotte Mason education. While CM believed in masterly inactivity, she definitely didn't unschool.
Mater Amabilis is impressive in its structure and form. What's immediately obvious when I look at all that Kathryn and Michele have outlined there is that a CM education is rich and deep--and thoughtfully planned.
CM is an educational philosophy that is true and beautiful. An authentic CM curriculum is always true and beautiful. And a CM inspired curriculum can be true and beautiful. A text-driven, workbook dominated curriculum is rarely beautiful and it is rarely as rich and deep as one that is built on living books.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Natalia
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Elizabeth wrote:
I find myself returning every summer to pure CM in order to anchor myself before planning a CM influenced curriculum. |
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Maybe I am asking the obvious here, but what is pure CM? It seems to me that there are some clearly identifiable CM elements (at least in my mind): narration,nature studies, short lessons,living books,etc. All of these seem more like a methodology to me. Isn't it true that you could use any,or all, of these and still not have a CM structured education? So what makes a CM education a CM education? What do you go back to every summer that offers you a jumping off board to plan a CM influenced curriculum?
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| it helps to understand the structured and then move to the influenced, if so desired. It doesn't necessarily work as well in reverse. |
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This is a great point and may well be why some have tired CM and stopped. We need to really understand that Charlotte Mason's methods are the outgrowth of a philosophy. Without understanding the philosophy the methods may not make sense. We should know "why" we do what we do.
Elizabeth wrote:
| What's immediately obvious when I look at all that Kathryn and Michele have outlined there is that a CM education is rich and deep--and thoughtfully planned. |
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I firmly contend that "thoughtfully planned" is a prerequsite for an excellent education.
Elizabeth wrote:
| CM is an educational philosophy that is true and beautiful. An authentic CM curriculum is always true and beautiful. And a CM inspired curriculum can be true and beautiful. A text-driven, workbook dominated curriculum is rarely beautiful and it is rarely as rich and deep as one that is built on living books. |
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Well said --I couldn't agree more!
Natalia wrote:
| what is pure CM? It seems to me that there are some clearly identifiable CM elements (at least in mind): narration,nature studies, short lessons,living books,etc. All of these seem more like a methodology to me. Isn't it true that you could use any,or all, of these and still not have a CM structured education? So what makes a CM education a CM education? What do you go back to every summer that offers you a jumping off board to plan a CM influenced curriculum? |
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I am sure Elizabeth will answer this when she gets the chance but I believe it goes back to what I wrote above, realizing that the method is an outgrowth of the philosophy and that we need to understand the philosophy to get the most from the method.
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Michele Quigley
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SuzanneG
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I'm making my way through Volume 3--School Education. There are 23 chapters in this volume and the last 3 are titled: Suggestions Toward a Curriculum. So, she has 20 chapters on the "fundamental principles" for a curriculum, and only 3 about "suggestions." Which is interesting and made me think of this conversation. She writes:
Vol.3,pg.215 wrote:
Summary of Preceding Chapters.––I have left the consideration of a curriculum, which is, practically, the subject of this volume, till the final chapters; because a curriculum is not an independent product, but is linked to much else by chains of cause and consequence. The fundamental principles of docility and authority have been considered in the first place because they are fundamental; but, for that very reason, they should be present but not in evidence; we do not expose the foundations of our house. Not only so, but these principles must be conditioned by respect for the personality of children; and, in order to give children room for free development on the lines proper to them, it is well that parents and teachers should adopt an attitude of masterly inactivity.
Having considered the relations of teachers and taught, I have touched upon those between education and current thought. Education should be in the flow, as it were, and not shut up in a watertight compartment. Perhaps reverence for personality as such, a sense of the solidarity of the race, and a profound consciousness of evolutionary progress, are among the elements of current thought which should help us towards an educational ideal. |
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There is just so much there! I think I re-read that 5 times!
Vol.3 page 216 wrote:
In considering the training of children under the convenient divisions of physical, mental, moral, and religious, I have not thought it necessary to give counsels upon matters of common knowledge and general acceptance, but have dwelt upon aspects of training under each heading which are rather likely to be overlooked. Under the phrase 'Education is a life,' I have tried to show how necessary it is to sustain the intellectual life upon ideas, and, as a corollary, that a school-book should be a medium for ideas and not merely a receptacle for facts. That normal children have a natural desire for, and a right of admission to, all knowledge, appears to me to be covered by the phrase, 'Education is the science of relations.'
These considerations clear the ground for the consideration of a curriculum, which occupies the remaining chapters; these are, in fact, a summary of what has gone before; and therefore I beg the reader's patience with such repetitions as seem to me necessary in bringing the argument to a point. |
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(Emphasis mine)
I've only read Vol. 1 and 6 so far....and then this one (vol.3), and it's by far my favorite!
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Suzanne in ID
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Elizabeth
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MicheleQ wrote:
| I am sure Elizabeth will answer this when she gets the chance but I believe it goes back to what I wrote above, realizing that the method is an outgrowth of the philosophy and that we need to understand the philosophy to get the most from the method. |
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Exactly. Why we do what we do--why we require so much narration, why we get outside, why we immerse them in Shakespeare--drives what we do.
Suzanne's quotes just above are so perfectly CM--Miss Mason hereself even explains why she's so verbose  .
It's nice to have this conversation here. While every family has to discern what works best for all of its members, to me "Real Learning" begins with an understanding of Charlotte Mason's principles of education. I can't reconcile a text-driven curriculum with what I know to be the best I could offer. Nor, does one size fit all in my house--ever. Finding CM was one "aha" after another and no other method or philosophy does that for me. I never "yes, but" Charlotte Mason.
In the summer, one of my favorites reads is a huge binder of printed emails from the old Charlotte Mason email list. There are back issues of Parent's Review in that binder, too. That yahoo list gave birth to CCM, which gave birth to this board. In that binder are also emails from a smaller group of CCM moms. The CCM list was focused. We didn't allow conversations that weren't about a Charlotte Mason-inspired Catholic homeschooling lifestyle. In many ways, I think that kept us focused. Too many choices and too much discussion really can work to our detriment.
I also like to visit the Simply Charlotte Mason website.
I re-read Karen Andreola's book and listen to some of her tapes. Karen Andreola never resonated with me particularly but she does get me thinking. Sally Clarkson has been very instrumental in framing my own personal philosophy of a home education *lifestyle.* Over the years, I have been blessed by Sally Clarkson's friendship and I admit that I look to her for reassurance that this does all turn out just fine 
I jump around in CM's series and listen to an old but wonderful tape series by Donna-Jean Breckenridge.
And I talk to Michele. We remember where we were and why we were so determined to make CM our own and to share CM with other Catholic homeschoolers. We can acknowledge that life looks very different in our homes than it did when we bumped into each other online at the Protestant CM list 11 years ago. But it's so clear now to see how those CM philosophies have stood the test of time and the addition of about ten children between the two of us. My oldest was nine when this experiment began. Years later, he wrote about CM in a college admissions essay. There's no doubt in my mind that this is the way to educate.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| In the summer, one of my favorites reads is a huge binder of printed emails from the old Charlotte Mason email list. There are back issues of Parent's Review in that binder, too. That yahoo list gave birth to CCM, which gave birth to this board. In that binder are also emails from a smaller group of CCM moms. |
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I was about to say "Oh wow how cool --I wish I had saved a pile like that when I remembered I had and dug out the big old folder I had in a cupboard. BUT the best part was that in that folder were two important documents that I thought I had lost and was trying to figure out how I would get copies of! THANK YOU for reminding me about that folder! I have no idea how those documents got in there but I am just so happy to have found them.
Quote:
| The CCM list was focused. We didn't allow conversations that weren't about a Charlotte Mason-inspired Catholic homeschooling lifestyle. In many ways, I think that kept us focused. Too many choices and too much discussion really can work to our detriment. |
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I'm pretty sure my Gestapo like moderating wasn't always too appreciated though.  I seem to remember MacBeth saying that when she met me I was a lot more laid back than she had expected. I really am and I tend to be a much more laid back moderator on my other lists these days. 
Elizabeth wrote:
| We remember where we were and why we were so determined to make CM our own and to share CM with other Catholic homeschoolers. We can acknowledge that life looks very different in our homes than it did when we bumped into each other online at the Protestant CM list 11 years ago. But it's so clear now to see how those CM philosophies have stood the test of time and the addition of about ten children between the two of us. My oldest was nine when this experiment began. Years later, he wrote about CM in a college admissions essay. There's no doubt in my mind that this is the way to educate. |
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My oldest was not quite 13 --he's 24 and married now. We both had a house full of boys and sweet little 2 yr. old girls --my sweet girl just turned 13 and I am finding my CM household looks a bit different these days with two more girls added to the mix. I will have 3 girls to 2 boys this year and already I can see how we are having a gentler approach. Someday I will have a flowery couch like Alice --I swear it!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane --it helps to rekindle that CM fire!
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Michele Quigley
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JennGM
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I'm mulling around Natalia's question and wondered if you could give examples of what is
1) Pure CM curriculum? Ambleside?
2) Pure CM education? That seems to be different than just following her curriculum; using her approach but using the updated books we have to reflect our time. Mater Amabilis seems to be that to me.
3) CM inspired or influenced -- I think we all could come up with examples. Would that just be using some of her approach and philosophy within our home education?
In conversations with several people the topic has come up that just because Miss Mason highly recommended a book back then, does it make it still a good book to use?
For example, I was checking out AO list of suggestions and then searched here and found this thread on nature study reprints. That kind of book does not interest me.
A Literary Education by Catherine Levison recommended the same book, with this description:
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Water Babies, The & Madam How and Lady Why
Charles Kingsley
(1863 Original pub.), Frank F. Lovell & co., New York. HB, 408 pgs. (Inc. both books)
This older version of The Water Babies includes a copy of a the hard to find Madam How and Lady Why (pub. 1868) which comes highly recommended by Charlotte Mason. The former is subtitled, A Fairy Tale for a Land-Baby and it's dedicated to the author's youngest son. Tom is a mistreated chimney sweep who is transformed into a water baby and lives among the fish and other creatures. Madam How and Lady Why are both fairies who help to differentiate between what we can know and what we can't. Topic covered are Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Soil, Ice, Chalk, Coral Reefs and Fields. This would be most useful as a read-aloud for younger children.
IRL: 7th grade & above |
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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 That's great you found the documents, Michele.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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SuzanneG
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Linking to Mater Amabilis' Introduction Page where the difference is made about halfway down the page.....between a CM-Structured Education and a CM-Influenced Education.
Mater Amabilis wrote:
A Charlotte Mason structured education attempts to follow the methodology set out in CM’s own writings as closely as possible. Children follow a set, formal course of study, using a highly efficient method which allows children to cover a broad range of subjects in the course of a short school day.
A Charlotte Mason influenced education gleans ideas such as living books, narration, short lessons and nature study from CM and applies them to a range of different styles of education –“ a particular curriculum, literature based education, relaxed homeschooling or even unschooling. |
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....but, of course, the whole intro is worth reading
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Suzanne in ID
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SuzanneG
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Sorry Jenn....we were cross posting.....I was just linking so the info was HERE for the archives.....but I'd like more concrete examples to your 1-2-3 questions too.
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Suzanne in ID
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MicheleQ
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JennGM wrote:
2) Pure CM education? That seems to be different than just following her curriculum; using her approach but using the updated books we have to reflect our time. Mater Amabilis seems to be that to me.
In conversations with several people the topic has come up that just because Miss Mason highly recommended a book back then, does it make it still a good book to use? |
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This is a bit of a pet peeve for me. If you look at the PNEU syllabi over the years you see that they used updated resources as new things became available --Charlotte Mason wrote about it (somewhere --I'll have to find it). I cannot buy the notion that CM would use an older book when something updated was available. I am not talking about classics here but certainly anything scientific.
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Michele Quigley
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Elizabeth
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MicheleQ wrote:
| This is a bit of a pet peeve for me. If you look at the PNEU syllabi over the years you see that they used updated resources as new things became available --Charlotte Mason wrote about it (somewhere --I'll have to find it). I cannot buy the notion that CM would use an older book when something updated was available. I am not talking about classics here but certainly anything scientific. |
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Ditto, Michele. I'm particularly always thinking what CM would think if she could see the lovely quality picture books that didn't even exist when she was teaching. Printing has come a very, very long way...I think we embrace ALL that is good and beautiful and true and she would heartily agree with our choices.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MicheleQ
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JennGM wrote:
| 1) Pure CM curriculum? Ambleside? |
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As I am not familiar with Ambleside I really can't say.
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| 2) Pure CM education? That seems to be different than just following her curriculum; using her approach but using the updated books we have to reflect our time. Mater Amabilis seems to be that to me. |
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Yes. Our goal was to follow her methodology and make a "best guess" (based on research) of what a 21st century Catholic Charlotte Mason curriculum would look like.
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| 3) CM inspired or influenced -- I think we all could come up with examples. Would that just be using some of her approach and philosophy within our home education? |
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I think that's probably the best way to explain it but also want to point out that I think there's a difference between a "CM inspired education" and a hodgepodge of CM. I think a CM inspired education is still a thoughtfully planned one that uses perhaps a variety of methods. By CM hodgepodge I mean a half-hearted picking and choosing of CM methods and ideals without any real plan. The former can be very successful in my experience. The latter, not so much.
Quote:
| In conversations with several people the topic has come up that just because Miss Mason highly recommended a book back then, does it make it still a good book to use? |
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What I love about the CM method is its applicability to today which speaks to me of its value and the truths it conveys. It's timeless. Not just Victorian as CM was, but current and fresh.
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Michele Quigley
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Mary G
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Michele ... I think you're right on with CM using what was current ... in some ways, that's what set her apart when she was developing her pedagogy: she was using the latest and greatest and even writing her own. I think sticking to that era is fine for some things ... but "chapter and verse" 1900s textbooks don't make sense to me.
I'm so not a rule-follower ... I would have a hard time being pegged as CM, Montessori, unschooler, Seton-based, or whatever. I do what works and I discern is right for my kids at whatever stage they're at. As my younger 3 age (10, 9 and 6 ) I'm seeing such different learning needs: one is very AR and needs everything spelled out and is very competitive, while the next is quiet and hates to be rushed or pressured and doesn't much care for too much structure (it makes her curl up like a snail, back into it's shell) while the youngest just needs action ...
bottom line, whether I like it or not, I HAVE TO tweak ... I can't cookie-cutter it and I wouldn't want to ... that's one of the reasons I homeschool: I can do what I THINK is best (based on input from dh and TONS of prayers).
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MaryG
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MicheleQ
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TracyFD wrote:
| I just began Vol. 1 and am sort of surprised to learn that she had such specific recommendations with regard to diet and dressing in woolens and having a French lesson every day. There is so much more in her original writing than one typically comes across in books that digest her philosophy. |
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Mackfam wrote:
Me too, Tracy!!!!
I was at my mom's a few weeks ago and she offered a lot of great books from her shelves and the CM volumes were there! I snatched them up as well as all of her old copies of The Parents Review. I had wanted to go back and review my own philosophies...back to the beginning to refresh my own views because sometimes things get so familiar over the years we sort of look past them and we just start doing them because we're doing them. I decided to devote my reading time this year to rediscovering and refreshing my own philosophies - not looking for anything new...just reviewing those philosophies that echo my own thoughts. I thought I'd try to do some of this reading over the summer, but then I thought why rush this?!! I'll just consider my entire year one of relaxed re-dedication. So, I'm headed to the volumes with you! |
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I love ALL of CM's volumes BUT I want to post this great quote from Wendy Capehart which explains why I always recommend starting with Vol. 6. Of course you can start (or return) wherever you want but just keep the time line of her thinking in perspective when you do.
Quote:
| "It's impossible to get a full idea of what Miss Mason was doing without reading volume six - not only is it the volume for the older kids, it's the last book she wrote - I think some forty years spans the spread between volume one and volume six. Sometimes ideas she had in volume one didn't quite work out as she had hoped they would, and by the time volume six came along she'd refined her ideas a little more, they got a bit more practical. WWI happened between volumes one and six, and this mattered. Before WWI, Charlotte, in company with many of the Imminent Victorians, had a practically messianic view of education - it was going to change human nature, improve it, make human beings all wise, peacable and just about bring heaven on earth. After WWI, Charlotte Mason's ideas on all this became a little more subdued and realistic. It's a little sad, but I think it was a healthy change. I think a lot of CM popularizers read volume one and promote the ideas in that book, and people think that's all there is to CM. Even without the refining of Charlotte's ideas that occurs over the decades between Volumes one and six, this would be a mistake because volume one says right up front that it's for children from birth to nine. Volume three is for the middle grades, and volume six is the book to read for about 12 and up. Charlotte did not recommend quite the same approach for all ages. Her program for the older kids is, like the rest, wide and generous, rich, full of ideas, good literature, art and music, but it's also very rigorous. By high school I see a lot more similarities with the classical approach in terms of materials used." ~Wendi Capehart |
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God bless!
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Michele Quigley
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Elizabeth
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That's a great quote, Michele. And I think it really brings home the idea that you can't just set up a CM curriculum (or any curriculum) once and be done with it. CM was never finished. She learned along the way and the lessons in her own life were developed over the course of forty years and six very dense volumes  . She was courageous enough to keep sharing, even as her thoughts were evolving.
I think it must have taken a certain humility to keep reading and keep researching and maybe even to change some things she put in print when she was younger and less experienced. CM had that humility. She allowed herself to learn. Perhaps one of the best traits of a good teacher is a teachable spirit and the willingness to keep learning.
This thinking--this questioning-- is a good thing. It's good to ponder these questions and it benefits our families--both because they are blessed by the fruits of the answers we find and because they witness our good examples as we are lifelong learners.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MicheleQ
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Joined: Feb 23 2005
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| Posted: Aug 10 2009 at 7:19am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
. . . I think it really brings home the idea that you can't just set up a CM curriculum (or any curriculum) once and be done with it. CM was never finished. She learned along the way and the lessons in her own life were developed over the course of forty years and six very dense volumes . She was courageous enough to keep sharing, even as her thoughts were evolving.
I think it must have taken a certain humility to keep reading and keep researching and maybe even to change some things she put in print when she was younger and less experienced. CM had that humility. She allowed herself to learn. Perhaps one of the best traits of a good teacher is a teachable spirit and the willingness to keep learning.
This thinking--this questioning-- is a good thing. It's good to ponder these questions and it benefits our families--both because they are blessed by the fruits of the answers we find and because they witness our good examples as we are lifelong learners. |
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OK so I have basically quoted your entire post but it's good and I think it's so true for all of us! We have to be humble and admit that we don't know it all or always get it right. But we can learn and share and turn back when we go astray.
Gosh I have had so many detours along the way and I'd be lying if I didn't admit we have gone off the CM path more times than I care to think about. Always to our detriment though they have been learning experiences so I guess there's good in that.
But the four pillars of a CM education (Atmosphere, Discipline, Life and the Science of Relations) are rooted in truth and though we find them all over the place, something about the way CM weaves them together always draws me back.
I do believe God has brought me to this place --I just needed to learn to trust that and stop trying to run off in my own direction. I think I've got it now --it's only taken me 11 years.
Lest I be too hasty let me add that it is only with God's help that any of this is possible. I am not at all capable of giving my children what they need if I try to do it alone. I know that for sure!
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Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Charlotte Mason: Remember This One?
