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Tonya
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I definitely want my children to have "the college door" available to them when they graduate from school. College is not for everyone but I have always wanted to make sure that it is an option for my kids. We have a very dear friend who is one of the smartest men that I know. He never had an opportunity to go to college and I have seen him taken advantage of so many times and get passed over for job advancements because he didn't have "that degree". He has more knowledge and natural ability than most people that I know yet his lack of degree has definitely held him back. We do not want our children to graduate with a great deal of debt either because that is so hard to overcome. There are ways around accumulating a lot of debt as others have mentioned here.
Although I am not technically an unschooler, I have let my children take courses that they wanted to in high school. I did make them fulfill the requirements for most colleges but I let them pick the courses that they would love. My kids joke that I have made them love learning so much that they don't want to stop going to school. My oldest daughter is working on her MBA for free while she works as an admissions counselor. She graduated with her undergraduate degree in three years. My second daughter is a piano performance major (not a lucrative career choice!) and has a full ride undergrad. She is planning on continuing on to graduate school in this field if she can keep getting funding. My oldest son is getting ready for his senior year of high school and is looking into careers that will take more than four years. I don't think that planning for college needs to be dry. If we continue to follow their interests, the kids will continue to love learning. Maybe they have just heard me say too many times how I would love to go back to college!
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Tonya
Mom to 2 daughters (24 and 21), 4 sons (19, 15, 12, 12), and 3 in heaven
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homeschool4Him
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Tonya wrote:
We have a very dear friend who is one of the smartest men that I know. He never had an opportunity to go to college and I have seen him taken advantage of so many times and get passed over for job advancements because he didn't have "that degree". He has more knowledge and natural ability than most people that I know yet his lack of degree has definitely held him back. We do not want our children to graduate with a great deal of debt either because that is so hard to overcome. There are ways around accumulating a lot of debt as others have mentioned here.
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That is unfortunate. Interesting thing, my husband has received 2 promotions and both times he was offered the promotion over many degreed individuals at his company.
He has several friends out of work right now, and they are all degreed individuals. These days a college degree can actually be a detriment.
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SeaStar
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So much to think about in this thread- thank you all for sharing your stories!
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
SQUILT Music Appreciation
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guitarnan
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I think the "need a degree" thing is geographic- and profession-specific. Our dear friend is looking for a network administrator job right now - he has been in this field pretty much since it WAS a field, but we are near DC and without a degree, he's having a hard time landing interviews (if anyone just asked him about his qualifications, they would know he could do the job!). Here, check-the-block mentality is typical. Things were the same where I grew up.
My own pie-in-the-sky dream for my children is a degree AND a set of skills, either of which could help them earn a decent living. For example, I know that, if everything changed horribly, my husband could support us by fixing cars. He has fixed ours for years and is quite skilled - of course, this is not the career he's pursued for 23 years, but if we were starving, he could fix cars and we would manage. I would love my children to have similar practical skills as well as a degree in a field that appeals to them.
I think this comes from my military experience - we have moved so many times, and I've held all kinds of wacky jobs - often, it's been my college degree from a well-known school with a famous football team that's helped me get a foot in the door and land an interview (I'm good at interviewing - thank you, theater years!). Of course, I had no idea when I was in college that I'd be looking for jobs every three years (or, later, trying to find ways to work from home so I could be the SAHM I wanted to be). It was just Divine Providence, really, that brought me to the point where I had a degree in a business-related field from a school everyone has heard of. (And...note to young ladies who want to get finance/defense/government jobs...I knew every football statistic possible about my school. Networking and sports knowledge both count. Trust me...and PM me if you want more advice.)
My parents, I think, had a good approach. They paid for an in-state (California, so therefore very inexpensive) college education, provided I majored in a subject that would allow me to support myself after graduation. Anything beyond that (private university, five-year-plan, etc.) was my problem. With this type of incentive, I graduated a quarter early and had a job lined up after graduation, thanks to an internship from my junior year.
These same parents have been totally supportive of every business venture I've run from home, none of which have been related to my degree...well, I majored in econ-business, so all careers are related...because they see the benefit of me being here every day for my children. To me, that's where the flexibility thing comes in. It would be nice to think that my own children might be able to work from home, start their own businesses or otherwise flex schedules in a way that benefits their family - and I think that's where the skilled trades come in.
(Soapbox Alert!) I also think we in the USA put way, way too much emphasis on what people do for a living. In France, it's the most impolite thing you can do, to ask where someone works. I never, ever ask about professions unless people totally, blatantly lead into the subject. Why? Everyone is important - what they do is not who they are. I should know - I've directed choirs, taught other people's students, been a bus parts buyer, etc. etc. and none of those jobs have defined who I am as a Catholic homeschooling travel-loving wife and mother. The real me is way outside of how I happen to be earning money right now.
So, I have no objections if my children want to be restaurant chefs or plumbers or whatever - as long as they have a Plan B in case they incur a career-altering injury. I don't trust the state or federal government to have a plan that would help them under those circumstances, unfortunately. A college degree might serve as a Plan B - or a Plan A - or something else. Or, perhaps, his woodworking skills will save the day when he really needs a job. How can I know?
The truth is, in this day and age, we just don't know which fields will be open to everyone and which will use college degrees as a handy filtering device to weed out applicants in a painless way. Too many things are uncertain. I know my son could happily make cabinets and wood items for a living, but I also know that cabinetry is not recession-proof. If my son has a college degree, he can apply for a host of jobs in a wide range of fields and at least be assured his qualifications will be reviewed.
I realize this is a very long and meandering post. I've lived a lot of places (ten moves in 23 years, and ten jobs in the same 23 years). There's no universal safety net in the USA. Flexibility is good. College name recognition is good. Graduating with no debt is more than good. Graduating with debt makes sense under certain conditions, too.
I am so thankful the Good Lord is watching out for us. How can people face these worrisome issues without the knowledge of God's complete, wonderful love? I, personally, have no idea how I would cope.
Time to stop now...I think I've said every possible useful thing I could, and I am sure there are a few useless thoughts in there, too!
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Macmom
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But dh and I WON'T pay for a state school. Its not an education. It's just 4 years of liberal gobbly-gook, punctuated by partying, and a cheesy Newman Center to boot! At the end, if you can parrot what the lefty teachers want you to say, you get a degree. (Dh is a grad of our local state university.)
I want them to have a CATHOLIC college education like I did. (OK, I was still partying!) But Steubenville formed me into the Catholic I am. It IS my alma mater, in the truest sense. I will help out however I can for that. I will even encourage debt to go to a good Catholic college and get a REAL education, make solid Catholic friends, and (probably) meet their future (Catholic) spouse. You can't really put a price tag on that, IMHO.
The possibility is still there for a trade school or apprenticeship, but even a plumber should read the Classics, know his Church history, appreciate the sciences.... why not get at least a few years of a Catholic college under your belt?
I don't know how we will pay for 9 children. I really don't. But I'm going to trust God to provide and open doors, and put them where He wants them. (And, like the widow, I'm gonna keep begging Him to send them to a Catholic university!!!)
Peace,
Macmom
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Catholic family life works on the same principle as a washing machine- clothes get clean by agitation.
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greengables
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Our experiences with our four college/post college age children has seen varied roads. I really find myself praying that the Holy Spirit will do the guiding because it is so easy for me to form my own opinions and forget to be open to His Ways!
One child desired to go to an academy and worked towards that goal until it happened though it required him to utilize his plan B (ROTC) in the beginning. Another followed the path of his father by working his way through college having the company pay for his schooling. Though he had such a distaste for institutional learning, he suffered through it and is now an engineer. Another I DECIDED SHOULD GO TO A CATHOLIC COLLEGE (FRANCISCAN) but he did not finish and for whatever reason he got kind of detoured until he joined the ARMY. Now that he is in the army, he is taking on-line classes to complete his degree. God only knows what would have happened if I had not been so persuasive about the Catholic College. I am just so grateful for the scripture that "all things work together for good for those that love the Lord!" and I continue to hold on to that scripture.
I guess I just want to say (to myself too) that we must listen to our children and their goals for I do believe that God places desires on our childrens' hearts for the plans that God has for them. When our children have had a strong desire to do something - whether a military career or a certain college or academy, they have done all the work to make it happen.
My prayer tonight for all of us is that we and our children will know His plans for us and we will follow!
God bless you all!
Jill (mom of 11)
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Bookswithtea
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Macmom wrote:
The possibility is still there for a trade school or apprenticeship, but even a plumber should read the Classics, know his Church history, appreciate the sciences....
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I completely agree. Which is why we homeschool and insist that our kids have a transcript that is college worthy. There is no way to truly predict the direction a child will take so I do think its crucial that their high school education be an excellent one.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Nedra in So. CA
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Bookswithtea
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Nedra in So. CA wrote:
Something interesting......we do dozens of transcripts each year for college bound students. We have had students with "perfect" transcripts (all of the boxes are checked; ALG 1 and 2, geometry, biology, physical science, and chemistry, 2-3 years of foreign language, etc...) with all A's, or a few B's thrown in, not get accepted into the college(s) of their choice. We have also had students with very student-directed transcripts get into those same colleges.
Why? One can never be certain, but we have questioned several of these colleges and they mentioned two things; the college interview and test scores. They all said that the college interview was of the utmost important. One college told us they would much rather see some independent choices, individualism, on transcripts rather than "same old." They notice homeschooling families coming in with the same exact transcripts and since they are taught at home they can never be certain whether they actually took those classes or are just "jumping the hoop."
Several colleges in our area also mentioned looking for ministry experience and entrepreneurship. There seems to be a strong draw to students coming in looking very individual; self-starters. |
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I don't think this concept gets enough attention sometimes in the homeschool world. There seems to be a drive for hs families to have transcripts that look like a private school student's would. I think those out-of-the-box transcripts really do make a difference. When someone has 2 nearly identical transcripts to review (this assumes that both are college prep transcripts to begin with) and chooses only one student, its more likely they will choose the one that says, "started a business at 12 and maintained it through high school" or "builds houses for habitat for humanity and is paying for college with money saved up from other building projects" or any number of interesting things that showcase that a student is different in all the right ways.
The other thing is that it really does matter what school one is considering. There are some schools that want to see a vanilla transcript with SAT/ACT scores to back it up.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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Just wanted to add that Gatto's book, Weapons of Mass Instruction (discussed in another thread here) has a lot to say about self starters and the perceived power of a college degree. He's not coming from the eternity perspective, but his ideas are food for thought when deciding how to educate our children for life and life after our time on earth.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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ALmom
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Here's my take - and much that has been said I'd say ditto. Vivienne, I know my oldest dd could say probably almost exactly what you said - except she is still earning her degree and working hard. We have offered to help some next semester since we can. I'm not sure she will accept our help - think at this point she likes the safety net of knowing she doesn't have to be preoccupied and panicy, but I think she is proud of having paid her own way so far. Nancy, I could practically ditto a lot of what you say about regions, flexibility, etc.
I've been thinking a lot about basic principals and how we must base judgements on those truths - but there is a measure of prudence here in which many of us will come to differing conclusions in our circumstances. When it comes to prudential judgement, it is the one directly involved who must make the judgement. Catholic principle is that it is not our place to dictate to our children the path that they should take. We form them according to the truth and then they make the judgement for their future. Of course, we have a role in helpig them think through all the questions so that our experience aids them in seeing the truth from all angles. We cannot impose our particular bent, however. We/ our children can all make different prudential judgements and we must respect that - ie avoid the sectionalism of pro-college and anti-college; it has to be one of the 5 Catholic colleges or none, etc. I know this group is so charitable and so these conversations can take place and we all know that we are guiding and praying for our children. Where we agree, I think are on the basic reasons and responsibilities. So, what is my goal in education whether homeschooling or delegating this- That comes from the responsibilites that my husband and I carry due to our vocation in marriage.
#1 We want to educate our children for eternity, to aid them in the path towards heaven.
#2 We want to help them form the habits and attain the necessary skills so that they will be best able to fulfill God's will for them in whatever vocation He may call them to.
#3 In light of number 2, we want to help them explore their giftedness, their interests, their strengths and weaknesses as this, along with the prayer that must be part of #1, will help them to discern the path that God wills for them.
#4 In light of the fact that as parents we are not the ones to make the decisions for the future path of their life, we try to stay out of God's way. We try to guide, yes, but also remain open to unexpected and surprising paths (even ones for which we do not have total comfort) that they seriously believe they are called to follow. We give them truthful and accurate information about the good, bad, and ugly of anything they consider through helping them ask the questions and find the answers they need to make wise decisions - but we support them (not necessarily financially) as they chose the path of their future vocation/career. We try not to close doors educationally or otherwise, but discern when God has closed doors through the circumstances in which we live. In faith, we recognize God's providential care and trust Him.
#5 We want to provide our children with the foundations of faith (praying for them, teaching them truth in all its fullness, trying to be a good example for them, humbly begging God and our Lady to have pity on our weakness and fill in for the gaps due to our ignorance or sinfulness), with the necessary skills and habits of mind that will equip them to transform the culture in which they live - since this is the particular call of lay people. We are aware that throughout history, some have been called to withdraw from the immediate temptations of the world in prayer for the world and others have been called to live in the midst of the world - being in the world and not of it. Having no idea which God will call any of our children to, it is impossible for me to say that they will go here and not here; they will follow this path and not this one. Instead I pray that God will open and close the right doors for the children as they step out into those decisions. Hopefully we have equipped them for whatever path God calls. In order to transform the world, some of our children must be able to engage in the raging debates, vote well, think logically from the foundation of the truth of our faith. If my dd are called to the married state, they will be responsible, with their husbands, for the education of their children whether they homeschool or delegate some of that. We try to make sure they have been prepared and guided to see through the prevailing errors of our day and to have a solid foundation of how to pray, think, reason and communicate so that they will be able to tackle whatever issues will be the burning errors oin society of their adult lives. Above all, they must be guided to live a life of virtue.
I can be very opinionated, as Jill (think you are someone I know well )said, and yet reflecting on the lives of the Saints there is such a variety - those who lived simple lives away from the hustle and bustle of the ugly cities - and those who were in the midst of this. It is all about where God wants these children of ours at any given time and place. I cannot presume to know exactly what He wants from them - this college or that; this career or that; vocation of marriage or religious life. Sometimes I can be blinded by my own prejudices and God stretches us as parents even as we walk with our young adults as they discern.
Have I left anything out?
Janet
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pipandpuddy
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Janet,
You always write such wise things. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Karen
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Bookswithtea
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ALmom wrote:
#4 In light of the fact that as parents we are not the ones to make the decisions for the future path of their life, we try to stay out of God's way. We try to guide, yes, but also remain open to unexpected and surprising paths (even ones for which we do not have total comfort) that they seriously believe they are called to follow. We give them truthful and accurate information about the good, bad, and ugly of anything they consider through helping them ask the questions and find the answers they need to make wise decisions - but we support them (not necessarily financially) as they chose the path of their future vocation/career. We try not to close doors educationally or otherwise, but discern when God has closed doors through the circumstances in which we live. In faith, we recognize God's providential care and trust Him.
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__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Nedra in So. CA
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greengables
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Janet,
Yes, I am someone you know very well! This nontechnological sister of yours is FINALLY figuring out how to read and EVEN post on 4real!! Well, I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks after all! I am suppose to repeat this: "Technology is my friend!" SO okay, okay, technology is my friend! javascript:AddSmileyIcon(' ')
Your post was well written and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it!
God bless you,
Jill
(Now let's see if those smiley faces really appear?)
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TracyQ
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guitarnan wrote:
(Soapbox Alert!) I also think we in the USA put way, way too much emphasis on what people do for a living. In France, it's the most impolite thing you can do, to ask where someone works. I never, ever ask about professions unless people totally, blatantly lead into the subject. Why? Everyone is important - what they do is not who they are. |
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I SO agree, Nancy! But I had NO idea that it's bad manners to ask that in France, as it's asked SO much here in the U.S.! That's part of what bothers me, I think. The way people are looked at if they don't plan to attend college right out of high school, makes me sad. I truly believe higher education is wonderful for those who need it, and that they are well prepared for it should God call them to it. I think I'm resentful and frustrated with the system as it stands today, that most high schools AND the people around them, (from what I've seen as my numerous nieces and nephews going through the system, both private and public, and even my own graduates from our homeschool) seem to make our young people FEEL/THINK that there is only ONE way to their future..... going to a 4 year college straight out of high school, and trying to figure out what they want to *do* as their career at that point in their lives. I think it makes them feel/think that if they don't take that route, they are not normal and are less successful and are failures as PEOPLE, and it happens at the most difficult transitional time in their lives. There are other ways and time frames in which to become educated than a *cookie cutter* way to higher education!
I don't hear much in conversations around the table when we gather with my husband's side of the family every Sunday night or within my family either when we're together about other options we've mentioned here....
*working and saving $$$$ then paying mostly cash as you go to school, and working and saving more $$$$, while gathering valuable work experience along the way
*Working and saving $$$$ while trying to discern what field you might want to go into before spending the $$$$ on the higher education, possibly saving a lot of money, and also gaining valuable work experience in the process.
*Going to a community college for two years to get the liberal arts courses finished and matriculating to a 4 year college after the two years to save $$$ while also possibly working part time to save and pay with cash or borrowing much less so debt is lessened, and also living at home to save money as well.
*online higher education
(any others I'm forgetting)
I think it's SO important that kids are prepared for a college plan regardless of whether or not they think they'll be going or not. I think that's OUR responsiblity to make sure we do that, because you NEVER KNOW what's going to happen, or what may change in their plans. Often, they don't have all of the knowledge for their future, and we can see that it's a possiblity, so we have to be sure they're prepared to go should that be God's plan!
It's always been so important to us that we make them understand that this is THEIR decision, not ours. They need to discern it, research it, and figure out what God's plan and calling is for them, that we know this is a VERY difficult transitional time in their life, and that we are there for them always... to guide them, and help them as they ask/need. That's our job. This way, they own their future, which is as it should be.
I've seen some of our siblings push their children into making decisions for their future that they really didn't want to make at that time, that didn't allow them grow and mature properly, and seemed to make them more rebellious than anything.
I think this issue for me is one I am thinking about more philosophically as well as practically. It's so hard to make these decisions when there is so much at stake....this world vs. God's Kingdom, etc. I just feel sometimes that we're at such a crossroads now or something. Most times, it's really hard for me to explain and to understand it myself. How can I expect it not to be even more difficult for our kids???
Does ANYone hear anyone say anymore when a young lady is asked the question, *Where are you going when you graduate?* as she's ending her high school years, "I want to be a wife and mother." I remember when I was 12 years old, feeling called to the vocation to be a wife and mother in a very strong and profound way from God, as strongly as I believe a young woman may feel called to the religious life. I rarely ever hear a young woman say she feels God is calling her to be a wife and mother. That seems to be a sidebar to a young woman's life now, not something you often hear being talked about.
Anyway, like I said, I have a really difficult time saying what I mean when this is discussed. I often come across seeming that I'm against higher education, which I definitely am not. But there's just so much more within me regarding the entire societal issue, I think, and it all really pains me to the core. 
It's helping me a lot to read everyone's insight here. Everyone is so wonderful, and it's SUCH a blessing to have so many women with so much wisdom. What a GIFT from God!! 
Love,
Tracy
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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TracyQ
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ALmom wrote:
Have I left anything out?
Janet
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NO! And I wish I would have read your post before I posted my last one, because it so eloquently says what I've been trying to express as to what's deep in my heart that we've been journeying through, but haven't quite been able to. THANK YOU!!!!!!! You have encouraged me so much today! 
Happy Sigh....... 
Love,
Tracy
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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Lucia
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This seems like a good place to post this:
I do have a son who is not heading to college. ..... he has taken some community college classes, but still hasn't found his niche, he is between a sibling who has graduated from a four year Catholic Liberal Arts college and one that is starting his freshman year at the same college.
He is dyslexic, but has worked hard to get through high school and he has many interests.
I really don't think, at least in the area that I live in, that there are many options for students who are not "cut out" for the four year college degree.
The atmosphere among home schoolers and "traditional" schoolers is that it is a given that every child is suppose to go to college.
So, I was wondering if any of you know of any apprenticeship programs that are out there or any ideas for those students who are not college bound??? He did check out a carpentry apprenticeship program that is connected with the community college which involves a four year commitment and joining a union.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!!
God Bless,
Maria Lucia
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organiclilac
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This article, M.I.T. Calls Academia's Bluff, was just posted on one of my e-mail lists, and I thought it was fascinating and perhaps relevant to this thread.
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Tracy, wife to Shawn, mama to Samuel (4/01) and Joseph (11/11), and Thomas (2/15)
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Bookswithtea
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Joined: July 07 2005
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| Posted: Aug 21 2009 at 7:56am | IP Logged
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Lucia wrote:
So, I was wondering if any of you know of any apprenticeship programs that are out there or any ideas for those students who are not college bound??? He did check out a carpentry apprenticeship program that is connected with the community college which involves a four year commitment and joining a union.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!!
God Bless,
Maria Lucia
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The best option I know of is trade school. Some community colleges have options to get a skilled trade in a narrower field, rather than a general ed. 2 yr associates degree. A technical college in my area offers 1 yr of classes to help prepare a young man to become a lineman. In the state we used to live in, the local community college had a 2 yr cosmetology program (not for your son, I realize, but just as an example) and also a 2 yr ASE certification program (auto mechanics). That's where I would start. And if you know any self employed man in your parish that you'd be willing to have your son spend time with, try to get him set up to shadow someone for a few months and see if he develops an interest in that career. He offers to do gruntwork for free, and in receives in return a beginning education in a field and the opportunity to figure out if this is really what he wants to do, before money is spent.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Is college the ultimate goal?
